Remington 30Carbine Soft Points -- Safe in a tubular magazine?

[Dannix]

Safe in a tubular magazine? I'd rather not hurt myself, but I would be particularly upset at myself for harming the family rifle involved.

Remington 30 Carbine 110 Grain Soft Point, pic courtesy of Midway:
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Large/1601456621.jpg

I need something quick for a plinking session, and its suitability for home defense (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.30%20carbine) is a big plus. (long term, this rifle is moving to boolits, don't worry. ;) )

[NickSS]

I have used 150 gr Remington core lock bullets for years in my 30-30 as I got them from midway years ago at a good price. They have a round nose like the 30 carbine bullets you are looking at and I have not blown myself or my gun up. Actually they are the same bullet that Remington loads in their 30-30 ammo. The only problem you might have is that the carbine bullet has no crimp groove so may push back in the case if you have insufficient neck tension.

[scb]

Unless cost is the top consideration I'd use these - http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=79. I've used them in everything from 30 Carbine to 30/06 with great success. I'm sure they will cost more than the bulk Remington will tho.

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot lots of Rem/Win 110 gr carbine bullets in M94 Winchesters. I still have some loaded over 24 gr H4227 for use in my M94 Carbine, velocity is 2500 fps and they are death and destruction on jack rabbits and coyotes:-) The original bullets for the M94 were all RN. I also helped shoot up about 500 of the old 150/160(?) gr RNFMJs when the police agency I worked for went from M94s to shotguns. No one ever expressed any concern back then about RNs in tubular magazines (or numerous other things) before the internet information highway.

Larry Gibson

[JJC]

I remember reading that the bottle neck 30 30 type cartridges sit in the tube at an angle. Where the bullet nose is in contact with the bottom of the rim below the primer. You have to worry more with the straight wall types that sit more flush. FWIW, John

[Dannix]

Nick, I'm looking for something lighter, and particuarlly cheaper. I got boxes of 170grn core lock cartridges, maybe still a 150grn around, but wow my gun get's hot fast after a few mags of those. I need something "fun" for the range, and cheaper is desired as well.
Interesting thought on the neck tension...I wonder if I can get a taper crimper for 30-30.


Actually, that reminds me. Any die recommendations? I'd prefer something that's boolit friendly for when I migrate this rifle that direction. Oh, and since I have to full length resize for lever anyway, any point in getting a neck sizing die? Maybe I should also pick up a Lee FCD for crimping these 30carbine loads.


scb, That j-word caught my eye on midway, but it's more expensive, and I'd also like something more appropriate for 2-footed threats at home than the factory 170grn core locks I currently have. The Remington 30car seems particularly up to that task, while I would be a bit concerned that that particular speer would be too explosive.

Thanks for your thoughts Larry. My impression is the blown levers on the internet is more associated to Federal primers than anything, but I'd figured I post to be safe. Thanks for some load info. I'd figured I'd load to 2000fps as that's where the terminal damage seems to be optimal at, and I'd like to make a bit of a reduced load out of this anyway. You think H4227 would still be a good one for 2000fps?

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/M1CarbineWP.jpg
If the wound channel gets shallower as fps is increased for a softpoint, I can see how this little guy would be the scourge of all sundry varmint. :mrgreen:

JJC, yeah, I remember seeing that around. If anything, it made me concerned about sharp large metplate FNs hitting the primer at an angle.

[Larry Gibson]

Dannix

Actually, that reminds me. Any die recommendations? I'd prefer something that's boolit friendly for when I migrate this rifle that direction. Oh, and since I have to full length resize for lever anyway, any point in getting a neck sizing die? Maybe I should also pick up a Lee FCD for crimping these 30carbine loads.

I shoot the 30-30 cartridge a lot in my 3 rifles. I like to have loads that are suitable for all. Thus FL sizing is necessary for those loads. For a FL sizer I recommend the RCBS X-die as it eliminates case stretch when FL sizing and trimming is no loanger necessary plus it greatly increases case life. It can be purchased seperately or as a set with the seater also. I recommend getting the FL X-Die set with the seater and then also getting the Lee Deluxe die set that includes the LFCD. A Lyman M-die is appropriate also.

With both sets I FL size with the X-Die and expand/flair the case mouth with the M-Die. When loading jacketed bullets the RCBS seater is used to just seat the bullet to the correct AOL without crimping. The LFCD is used for a uniform crimp. When loading cast bullets the Lee seater is used to seat and roll crimp in one operation. I have opened up my Lee seater slightly so the usual .311 sized cast bullets seat easily.

I have cut off about half of the threaded portion of the Lee sizer and honed out the side walls up to the shoulder area so the case does not contact the side walls. The neck portion was also slightly honed with a taper. The decapping stem assembly is left out. It is then adjusted to put a slight taper crimp on the case mouths when bullets such as the 110 gr carbine or the Speer 100 gr or Hornady 100 gr HJs are used.

I also have a Redding NS die that i used quite a bit on one lot of FC cases (My one load for 3 guns are put up in WW cases) for use in my TC Carbine barrel. However, since using the X-die I find I don't even bother with NS anymore, even with cast bullet loads.

The Remington 30car seems particularly up to that task, while I would be a bit concerned that that particular speer would be too explosive.

The Speer 110 gr Varminter is very "explosive" from 1500+ fps and the Sierra 125 HP is also very "explosive", especially above 2000 fps. If one uses the 30-30 for a "defense" gun, especially around the home then much is to be recommended for either bullet.

Thanks for your thoughts Larry. My impression is the blown levers on the internet is more associated to Federal primers than anything, but I'd figured I post to be safe. Thanks for some load info. I'd figured I'd load to 2000fps as that's where the terminal damage seems to be optimal at, and I'd like to make a bit of a reduced load out of this anyway. You think H4227 would still be a good one for 2000fps?

I got a bit too much ES with lower loads of H4227 with the 100 and 110 gr J bullets. I use 12 gr of Unique under both bullets for around 1900 - 2000 fps out of my M94 Carbine to equal .30 carbine terminal ballistics.

Larry Gibson

[Dannix]

RCBS X-die FL sizer - Never noticed this guy before. Thanks for pointing it out.

What's your take on this user review on Midway for the X-die 2-die set?

I will only give this product a three for one reason. It's a great concept, but the brass will grow at a different rate. This certainly makes a difference when you need to crimp your bullet. ie.. 30-30 lever action loads. You set your seater to a certain bullet depth, then you have a longer case, or a short case, ultimately you end up with a bulged shoulder. Even though I tried crimping in a separate station, it was still difficult while the brass was still in its growing stage to produce the perfect round with the same amount of crimp pressure. If you have a lee factory crimper, these dies will work for you, but not ideally. Brass is relatively cheap, and if you are not shooting a lot then I would just trim your brass to length or somewhere between trim to and max length. When you wish to achieve the ultimate in accuracy I have found it's critical to trim the cases all to one length than it is to extend the life of the brass.
The M-die expander is already on my list as I plan on getting a custom plug for it, if need be, once I switch to boolits.


I recommend getting the FL X-Die set with the seater... When loading jacketed bullets the RCBS seater is used to just seat the bullet to the correct AOL without crimping. The LFCD is used for a uniform crimp. When loading cast bullets the Lee seater is used to seat and roll crimp in one operation. I have opened up my Lee seater slightly so the usual .311 sized cast bullets seat easily.
Is there's something you like about the RCBS seater particularly? Are you using it to seat j-words simply because you modified your Lee seater for boolits, and you happened to have the RCBS seater from a 2-die purchase? Just curious if there's something about the RCBS seater you like for j-words, or if you consider the Hornady or Lee seaters just as comparable.


(I'm not too happy with my 9mm Lee seater. There seems to be too much slop, too loose tolerances, and I've got to be really careful, otherwise I get lopsided rounds, particularly if I follow the directions on how to use the die. I'm a newbie though, without experience with other seaters to compare it to. It did get a bit better when I screwed the plug out a ways, screwed the die as far as I could go without crimping (I'm crimping with the FCD) and then screwed the plug in for desired OAL. I tried polishing the plug a bit -- maybe this is what improved things a bit, and maybe I just need to polish it more. I can see how the FMJs I'm using could grip the plug face rather than centering on it, particularly before I gave it the little sanding that I did. Not going to mess with it from here though as I'm planning on getting a XL650 will Dillion dies to go with it for the 9mm)


I have cut off about half of the threaded portion of the Lee sizer and honed out the side walls up to the shoulder area so the case does not contact the side walls. The neck portion was also slightly honed with a taper. The decapping stem assembly is left out. It is then adjusted to put a slight taper crimp on the case mouths when bullets such as the 110 gr carbine or the Speer 100 gr or Hornady 100 gr HJs are used.
Wow, that sounds nice. It's something I don't have the skill set nor equipment to do though. Would you still recommend the FCD for jwords, bone stock? Or would the Redding Taper Crimp Die 30-30 Winchester (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=154857) be better?

Thanks a ton for the info Larry

[Larry Gibson]

Dannix

What's your take on this user review on Midway for the X-die 2-die set?

I will only give this product a three for one reason. It's a great concept, but the brass will grow at a different rate. This certainly makes a difference when you need to crimp your bullet. ie.. 30-30 lever action loads. You set your seater to a certain bullet depth, then you have a longer case, or a short case, ultimately you end up with a bulged shoulder. Even though I tried crimping in a separate station, it was still difficult while the brass was still in its growing stage to produce the perfect round with the same amount of crimp pressure. If you have a lee factory crimper, these dies will work for you, but not ideally. Brass is relatively cheap, and if you are not shooting a lot then I would just trim your brass to length or somewhere between trim to and max length. When you wish to achieve the ultimate in accuracy I have found it's critical to trim the cases all to one length than it is to extend the life of the brass.

My "take" is that this guy failed to follow the instructions for the X-Die. They are different than with regular dies. Had he followed instruction and set the die up properly for his cases he would not have had cases that grow at a different rate. They would not grow at all if he had set the die correctly. He may also have had excessive headspace in his rifle which could have caused a couple of the problems he describes just to give him some benifit of doubt. I have been using the 30-30 X-Die for several years now without any of the problem this guy mentions. I also use the X-die with 9 other cartridges with equal success having no case lengthening and no more trimming.

The M-die expander is already on my list as I plan on getting a custom plug for it, if need be, once I switch to boolits.

Since I regularly use cast bullets sized to .310/.311 (mostly)/.312 I use the lyman .31 M-die. It works very well and gives the right amount of neck tension.

Is there's something you like about the RCBS seater particularly? Are you using it to seat j-words simply because you modified your Lee seater for boolits, and you happened to have the RCBS seater from a 2-die purchase? Just curious if there's something about the RCBS seater you like for j-words, or if you consider the Hornady or Lee seaters just as comparable.

I use it because I have it and for convenience. The RCBS is used for j bullets because I don't crimp during the seating step with J bullets. I roll crimp when seating most cast bullets for the 30-30 because most of them have a generous crimp groove and I've not problems doing it with the Lee die. The convenience comes from not having to readjust the dies and one less loading operation with the Lee die.


(I'm not too happy with my 9mm Lee seater. There seems to be too much slop, too loose tolerances, and I've got to be really careful, otherwise I get lopsided rounds, particularly if I follow the directions on how to use the die. I'm a newbie though, without experience with other seaters to compare it to. It did get a bit better when I screwed the plug out a ways, screwed the die as far as I could go without crimping (I'm crimping with the FCD) and then screwed the plug in for desired OAL. I tried polishing the plug a bit -- maybe this is what improved things a bit, and maybe I just need to polish it more. I can see how the FMJs I'm using could grip the plug face rather than centering on it, particularly before I gave it the little sanding that I did. Not going to mess with it from here though as I'm planning on getting a XL650 will Dillion dies to go with it for the 9mm)

With my Lee 9mm dies ( I have both Lee dies and RCBS dies plus the dies in my Dillon SDB) I've found them to be like most current 9mm dies in that they really size the case too much. I back the sizer out so the case is just partially sized enough for an inside case diameter .004" less than the bullet diameter. I mostly use .358/.359 cast bullets so the sizer is backed out quite a bit. I let the Carbide FCD ensure the case head is sized enough. I have honed an extra Dillon sizer for such use with cast bullets. I use the RCBS 9mm dies in a 550B to NS and load .38 super cases for my Spanish Destroyer.

Wow, that sounds nice. It's something I don't have the skill set nor equipment to do though. Would you still recommend the FCD for jwords, bone stock? Or would the Redding Taper Crimp Die 30-30 Winchester (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=154857) be better?

Yes, I recommend the FCD (talking 30-30 again) is the best to use with J bullets for crimping, especially with the heavier recoiling 150/170 gr factory equivilent loads. A goos solid crimp is necessary because they get beat up in the magazine from recoil and the spring tension which will push the bullets into the case if the crimp isn't good enough. The LFCD also will work for the lighter bullets with no crimp groove but it must be adjusted so it doesn't crush the bullets. The Redding taper crimp die is the best for such bullets.

Neck tension must be sufficient with bullets having no crimp groove also to prevent set back in the neck. Your welcome on the help, don't hesitate with other questions.

Larry Gibson

[Dannix]

I also use the X-die with 9 other cartridges with equal success having no case lengthening and no more trimming.
To the ears of a new to bottleneck, new to rifle shooter, that's music to my ears and justifies the higher die price.


With my Lee 9mm dies ( I have both Lee dies and RCBS dies plus the dies in my Dillon SDB) I've found them to be like most current 9mm dies in that they really size the case too much. I back the sizer out so the case is just partially sized enough for an inside case diameter .004" less than the bullet diameter.
I'm not sure why I never thought to back out the FL die a bit. Thinking back, I had heard of some doing this for rifle, but for some reason it never clicked that I should try it with my 9mm reloading. I'm assuming the X-die doesn't allow partial FL sizing -- did RCBS choose a "looser" sizing spec than some other die manufacturers to avoid oversizing? Just curious. I remember reading how some manufactures having tighter FL sizing dies, but I don't recall either the calibres nor manufactures mentioned.


I use the RCBS 9mm dies in a 550B to NS and load .38 super cases for my Spanish Destroyer.
NS? So why aren't you using your Dillon dies for your .38 Super? Simply the convenience of just swapping out a toolhead to go from your 9mm reloading to .38 Super?


The LFCD also will work for the lighter bullets with no crimp groove but it must be adjusted so it doesn't crush the bullets. The Redding taper crimp die is the best for such bullets.
By adjustment do you mean simply being careful in setting it up, considering the thinner jacket? How is the Redding best in the lighter bullet scenario, over the LFCD?

Thanks again Larry. I really appreciate you bring me along on niches of these different dies.

[Larry Gibson]

Dannix

I'm assuming the X-die doesn't allow partial FL sizing -- did RCBS choose a "looser" sizing spec than some other die manufacturers to avoid oversizing? Just curious. I remember reading how some manufactures having tighter FL sizing dies, but I don't recall either the calibres nor manufactures mentioned.

I believe the regular X-Die is just the standard dimension die. RCBS does make a couple SB (Small, Base) X-dies but I've not found them necessary in any cartridge, particularly those with milspec chambers. Yes the X-Die can allow for "partial sizing", to a degree anyway. I have shims made to fit under the locking ring so I can adjust the cartridge headspace for each rifle. However I only do that on for a couple rifles of which I keep seperate cases for. Mostoften I adjust the dies so the cartridge headspaces on the minimum chamber of a particuler rifle for that cartridge. The cartridges then fit the others fine. Or one can just completely FL the cases so they fit all such cahmbered rifles. It is the mandrel that must be correctly adjusted to stop case stretching during sizing.


NS? So why aren't you using your Dillon dies for your .38 Super? Simply the convenience of just swapping out a toolhead to go from your 9mm reloading to .38 Super?

It is the RCBS FL die die that is used to NS the .38 Super cases on a Dillon 550B press. The Destroyer was .9mm Largo and I set the barrel back 1/2 thread so it would headspace on the Super case. The chamber is "generous" at the rear so to save on case life I just NS the cases. The 9mm case is tapered whereas the Super is a straight case. Thus the 9mm die makes a perfect NS die....it makes a sort of gently tapered case that way. It is good as the loads I shoot in the bolt action Destroyer i wouldn't want to get into a .38 Super or ACP. They won't because they are too large in web area now.

By adjustment do you mean simply being careful in setting it up, considering the thinner jacket? How is the Redding best in the lighter bullet scenario, over the LFCD?

It's very easy to over adjust the LFCD and crush the lighter bullets, especially the HJ'd ones. Not so easy to mess up with the taper crimp.

Larry Gibson

[Dannix]

Awesome, thanks. I just grabbed a pound Unique, and hopefully my small-cylindered Uniflow will measure it with sufficient consistency so I can get some accurate loads with it. I saw 10grn of Unique under the 110grn jword, but I'm going to see if I can get access to a chrony.

[7of7]

Dannix,
I have used everything from a flat nose to a lead tipped spire point in my 30-30. Before I used the spire points, I tried to ignite a primer by taking one bullet, and taping it to a scrap piece of brass, centered on the primer, then smacking it with a hammer as if I was trying to drive a 16D nail into a 2X4 with a single strike. The only thing I did was successfully ruin a perfectly good bullet. Did the same with a Hornady SST bullet,.. however, they have a long ogive, and the tips hung up... so I cut them off, and they fed fine..
The only things I wouldn't load into my magazine would be a FMJ spire point bullet.. If it has a lead tip, it should be fine..
I also use CCI primers, which are known to be on the harder end of the scale.. so that could also be some of the reason I wasn't able to ignite the primer..
I have always loaded 150 grain lead round nosed bullets for the 30-30.. I recently started using 130 grain bullets.. (I make my own jacketed 30 caliber bullets) they have a 3/4R ogive.. so they are pretty blundt.. They shoot very well..

[Dannix]

The only thing I did was successfully ruin a perfectly good bullet.
Wow, that's something. Thanks for sharing. I was leaning towards Winchester primers for this, but I'll put CCI on my OK list.

I'm considering picking up a 6.8 SPC in the relatively near future. I sure do wish Remington make this soft-tipped j-word in .277 size. Maybe I should go 7.62x39USA. Choices, choice.