Linotype-learned a lesson today

[kelbro]

Every time that I melted down linotype, I always had to get the temp up pretty high to get the tin to flux back in well. That was using gulfwax for flux. That meant longer cool times before dumping the ingots.

Tonight I tried some sawdust and the tin immediately fluxed in. Wow! Lowered the temp to 550 or so and had great pours and the ingots cooled as fast as WW.

I have always used gulfwax for fluxing or a paint stirrer. Is sawdust THE answer for the best alloy?

[Rangefinder]

I end up with loads of maple and cherry shavings from my bench planer and jointers--it's about the only thing I ever use to flux my melts. Works like magic every time and smells great burning off. ;)

[lwknight]

When I melted linotype there was good bit of dross that all went back in using smelly candle wax for flux. I did purposely get it to about 650 degrees to ignite the wax then worked the dross till the wax burned up. There was only a little carbon dust left.
Cooling time was not an issue because I had more molds than lead pot.

The surface was glasslike and got some waves in it when it cooled. It does make real nice clean slick ingots. I used the 3X5 breadpans to make 10 pound ingots.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I read about using sawdust for flux, on this site. It seems to work great. I use it for fluxing wheel weight and for use in my Lee pot. I keep about 1/2 inch of the stuff on top of my bottom pour to insulate and keep the lead looking great. You can get sawdust bedding at some of the tractor supply places and pet stores. I live two blocks from a lumber yard and can get as much as I want.

[hoosierlogger]

I live two blocks from a lumber yard and can get as much as I want.
I work for a sawmill and can get as much as any of us want. It is amazing to me how something that is free can work better than most things you have to pay for.

[baker1425]

I have used crayons from the kids in the past with mixed results. I've been fluxing with cedar bedding chips, they smell better than burning crayons. I live in a neighborhood with a lot of walkers in the afternoons, when I've used gulf or crayons they look at the garage with suspicion! Now, with cedar no one pays attention.

[Jailer]

A good friend of mine has a wood shop so luckily I have an endless supply of sawdust. Good thing too because melting range scrap requires lots of fluxing to get all the dirt out.

[Echo]

I stop @ Lowe's, carry in a container, go back to the saw area, help myself, and press on,,,

[justingrosche]

Every time that I melted down linotype, I always had to get the temp up pretty high to get the tin to flux back in well. That was using gulfwax for flux. That meant longer cool times before dumping the ingots.

Tonight I tried some sawdust and the tin immediately fluxed in. Wow! Lowered the temp to 550 or so and had great pours and the ingots cooled as fast as WW.

I have always used gulfwax for fluxing or a paint stirrer. Is sawdust THE answer for the best alloy?

Kelbro, Is there a chance that some of the lino you smelted might have been spacers that contain less antimony? Thats what causes you to have higher melt temps is the antimony in the mix. Stands to reason less antimony in the melt, would mean less melt temp. Just a thought.
Also, when you said you were fluxing your dross, you were putting tin back into the melt. Thats incorrect. Dross is dross. It's all inclusive of what is in the pot and oxidized metals. All the metals, not just the tin.

[kelbro]

Kelbro, Is there a chance that some of the lino you smelted might have been spacers that contain less antimony? Thats what causes you to have higher melt temps is the antimony in the mix. Stands to reason less antimony in the melt, would mean less melt temp. Just a thought.
Also, when you said you were fluxing your dross, you were putting tin back into the melt. Thats incorrect. Dross is dross. It's all inclusive of what is in the pot and oxidized metals. All the metals, not just the tin.

There were probably spacers in there. Not many but I do recall seeing some.

Good to know about the dross. Thanks.

[lwknight]

Also, when you said you were fluxing your dross, you were putting tin back into the melt. Thats incorrect. Dross is dross. It's all inclusive of what is in the pot and oxidized metals. All the metals, not just the tin.
It is commonly excepted by most experienced casters that if you continuously skin the melt without fluxing that you will end up with a tin deficient alloy.

Kelbro , you were correct. You lose more tin than anything else without fluxing and just skimming.

[SpaceGlocker]

I work for a sawmill and can get as much as any of us want. It is amazing to me how something that is free can work better than most things you have to pay for.

would you ship some in a big flat rate box?

[Rangefinder]

would you ship some in a big flat rate box?

Cover a FRB in the size of your choice and I'll send you all the blended maple, cedar, and cherry planer shavings I can cram, jam, stomp, and seal into it. It's what I use with wonderful results. The only other use I have for it is making paraffin cubes with it for fire-starter. Let me know if you're serious ;)

[Papa Jack]

OK, yesterday I alloyed 4 batches of 4:1 Lead/Lino alloy....I thought I'd try the SawDust flux thing, so I went over to my Radial Arm saw and scooped a couple handsfull of sawdust ( FIR, Cedar,).
I was using a Coleman Stove to melt things, so I had added the Lino, and the lead and it was looking pretty good, just a slight skim on top the melt, I was stirring frequently. I added a spoonfull of saw dust....not much happened, just kinda sat there and looked like saw dust. I stirred it around like I normally do, I didn't see anything Magical happening. I skimmed it off so it wouldn't pour out into the ingot moulds....Poured the ingots, they looked pretty good, nothin out of the normal.
Maybe because I was using all NEW lino and the lead was previously fluxed, there was nothing there to flux ???
So, what am I doin wrong ???? I have read in my books that "Oiled Sawdust" is good for fluxing....should I dampen it with a little oil ????
I cast a handfull of bullets from one of those batches, they came out pretty good, one step harder than L-2, I can't recall the exact BHN , they looked OK cept for the lube grooves ( RD-.432-265) I have problems filling the tumble lube grooves and the temp was over 750*... But I'm satisfied with the bullets, I gotta shoot em now.....PJ

[lwknight]

The process that we call fluxing only reduces oxides back into the original metal.
Fluxing does nothing to the alloy.

[Three44s]

Papa Jack,

I'd say your melt was already clean ........ when you skimmed off the burnt saw dust you can bet that whatever small amount of impurities that were there went away with the carbon (used sawdust).

Let me assure you ....... I've been using Marvelux (hate it) ....... I've used bullet lube (much better!) ..........

But NOW ......... I'm a confirmed saw dust fluxer!

I would not hesitate to use bullet lube again ....... but I'll never ........ NEVER go back to Marvelux!

Just let it sit on top and rid the saw dust of it's moisture and other liquids ....... then carefully stir in ....... just like you did .......... I like a wooden stick for scraping the sides of the lead pot and pre-heat your spoon as well ....... and you are good to go!

Your good bullets tell you that you did just fine!


Three 44s

[geargnasher]

It is commonly excepted by most experienced casters that if you continuously skin the melt without fluxing that you will end up with a tin deficient alloy.

Kelbro , you were correct. You lose more tin than anything else without fluxing and just skimming.

Correct. Tin oxidizes more rapidly than the other elements of the alloy, especially at higher temperature. Tin "flash oxidizes" at over 750*, that's why an alloy containing tin at 800* won't ever have a shiny surface, even right behind the skimming spoon.

I took a lump of un-reduced wheel-weight + 2%-tin dross I deliberately skimmed from a hot pot some time ago, heated it and forced it into a boolit mould to cast a boolit of known volume, then figured its specific gravity. By the proportions the only conclusion that made sense was that the dross contained about 30% tin, proof enough to me that tin drosses out faster than the others and it pays to keep reducing the oxides back in.

Gear

[Papa Jack]

Thank's Guys.... The reason I had the Lee pot up at such a high temp ( 800+*) was I just forgot about it.....I had poured a hot batch from the pot on the Coleman directly into the empty lee pot and plugged it in. Then I continued to make up the batches of alloy.....and talk with my neighbor...
I had also read threads about keeping temps up when using the 6 cavity moulds....So when I checked the temp, I thought I'd try it and see how it cast. Seemed to work OK.
I'll try the saw dust again on a batch of dirty stuff. Thanks again !! "PJ"

[mustanggt]

I have read so many different opinions about what temp to set your melt at depending on alloy. Just when I think I got it figured out someone says something different. I've seen guys say that once all alloy constituents are mixed together they can't come undone at the temps we typically cast at. Some of this stuff has to be set in stone physics-ly speaking of course. I have cast at 800 and got good boolits. I've cast at 700-750 too and have had good boolits. I think my biggest problems have come with not having my mould up to temp enough to get good boolits even though I use a hot plate to pre heat. I guess my expectations have been that they should have been up to temp by now so my melt isn't hot enough. My sprue should solidify in about 5 or so seconds by what I've read and so I've tried to hold to that but when I cast with lino it would solidify in 10-15 seconds at the same temp. So I turned it down to 675 and it would set up in about 5 seconds. I've gone to Fryxells site which is very good and read many times. There are alot of guys here who's opinion I respect becuase of their experience and when I was getting started and relyed on it to get running. Maybe I should just stop over thinking this whole thing and just cast. I want to cast the best and most consistent bullet I can because I take pride in the end product of my efforts.

[Rangefinder]

Maybe I should just stop over thinking this whole thing and just cast.

There ya have it. I cast over a propane burner with a ladle. No thermometer, no running back and forth adjusting this or resetting that... Look and feel--so to speak. Relax and enjoy the melt.

[rob45]

I have read so many different opinions about what temp to set your melt at depending on alloy. Just when I think I got it figured out someone says something different. I've seen guys say that once all alloy constituents are mixed together they can't come undone at the temps we typically cast at. Some of this stuff has to be set in stone physics-ly speaking of course. I have cast at 800 and got good boolits. I've cast at 700-750 too and have had good boolits.

There are always, and always will be, differing opinions on the ideal temperatures.

Here are but a few of the things which contribute to variance:
1. Mold material- iron, aluminum, brass? Each material has differing properties of heat retention, thus affecting the casting pace used.
2. Size of cavities.
3. Number of cavities.
4. Alloy being used- one person's alloy is probably not identical to another person's alloy, even though both are using "lino" or "WW".
5. Casting pace of the individual. Somebody casting at a faster pace keeps the mold hotter.
6. Casting method of individual- ladle or bottom-pour? How much "drop" from pour spout to mold?
7.Calibration of equipment, especially thermometers. Your thermometer may read 650, another may read 675. Which one do you quote?
8. And on and on and on...

Don't sweat it too much. Personally, I always cast at lowest temp possible for the combination at hand. But in the end it's all about the end result- quality bullets.

Most of the time the higher temps are quoted to make up for deficiencies elsewhere in the casting chain. If you feel the temp for you is too high, evaluate all factors involved and try lower.

Good luck,
Rob

[mustanggt]

I normally just cast and go. I really do enjoy it alot but I peruse these threads here and I see others experience and then start to second guess my procedures. I'm always looking to do it better than the last time. I'm always wanting to learn more. So I guess I'll just go with what I've already learned and relax. Thanks alot.