Single Action revolvers for self-defense?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have run into a number of guys that see my 45colt Ruger NM Vaquero as a poor choice of carry gun.

[Finster101]

It would not be my choice, but then again not everyone likes my brand of motorcycle, car ,or beer. If it works for you that is all that matters.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I voted "yes" because I personally think they are a good choice for me.

[ReloaderFred]

You use what you're comfortable with. After all, it's your life.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[home in oz]

They would work just fine.

[southpaw]

I forget who has it on their tag line but it say something like this; one well placed shot is better than 500 misses.

If it works for you that is all that matters. Personally I like my DA.

Stay safe


Jerry Jr.

[9.3X62AL]

Not my first choice for SD, but what someone else chooses to defend themself with is none of my business. If someone asks my opinion on what might be best for THEM, a little question/answer session usually takes place, and either a double-action roller or autopistol gets the nod.

What might work best for me as a deeply-steeped D/A revolver enthusiast and lukewarm-to-eager autopistol shooter might not be the best for you or someone else. I can certainly hit what I aim at with a S/A roller, and if I were to choose such a piece as my back-alley predator repellant a second such arm ("Sheriff's Model?") would make a lot of sense. I sure as h--l wouldn't like trading finality with a skilled CAS shooter armed with a SAA repro.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Watch a cowboy action shooter, they are no slouches.
The group here in ut. co. Utah, has compeated with local S.W.A.T. Teams & won.

No gun is usefull if you can not hit w/ it.

If one was nearby in a AH S---! Situation I would use it. But I prefer double actions .

[Dale53]

My daily carry is the S&W Model 642. I use the FBI load. I recognize that it is probably marginal. However, I WILL/DO carry it. Any load is better than none and the FBI load has a good record for stopping power.

I would much prefer a .45 ACP fully loaded with a good cast bullet of appropriate shape (MiHec's 200 gr H.P. at 900+ fps comes to mind). However, I won't normally pack a 1911 even tho' I have over a 100,000 rounds through my three in IPSC shooting. The 1911 is arguably the best combat handgun EVER. However, as a civilian, it is too much for general carry (for me). "Too much" meaning too bulky and too heavy. I DO have a Kimber CDP Ultra II 3" that is almost light enough for me to use, daily. I might go in that direction but right now it is the 642.

Regarding someone's choice of a good single action - five good shots that hit are hard to argue with. If the caliber is sufficient, it is even harder to argue with. Do I consider it the best, no! But it will certainly get the job done, with finality, in the hands of a skillful shooter.

YMMV
Dale53

[bhn22]

Your life expectancy goes down remarkably after the first 6 shots. You should do pretty good up to that point.

I carry two reloads, just in case something goes wrong. You can never predict what sort of situation you might encounter, and I plan for a worst case scenario instead of a best case scenario, and I'm still walking and talking and everything. Happily, the odds are against your having to face this sort of situation.

[Murphy]

Self Defense?

I guess a S.A. would be just fine. Provided you get to pick the time, place, distance and number of combatants you face.

And then? You gonna have some splainin' to do.


Murphy

[softpoint]

IMHO, Less than a cylinderful is going to settle just about all problems a civilian is going to get into. A single action revolver is quite fast in practiced hands, giving up virtually nothing for the first and most important shot, and very little for the first six. I personally don't carry a single action very often for a concealed carry gun, but I have, and was comfortable with it. :cbpour:

[HammerMTB]

Has anyone ever been killed with an SA revolver before?
Oh, yeah, I guess they have....
It is the 21st century and a lot of more modern sidearms have come along since the SA wheelgun. That said, I have carried one myself from time to time. Mostly if I carry a wheelgun it is a DA,tho...
So I answered if you are comfortable with it, go right on ahead.
I was involved in a conversation earlier with a fella that thought his .32 Auto was just fine as a defensive sidearm. I can tell ya right now I'd choose an SA .45 Colt over a .32 Auto any ol' day.

[BoolitBill]

It depends upon how much time and effort you put into practice with the SA, some people are very good with them. I took a regular defensive handgun course at Thunder Ranch years ago when it was in Texas. Heidi Smith was helping to teach the course and got into a conversation about single actions with a friend of mine. The next day she brought a SA to the firing line and proceeded to show the class how a trained person with a SA was not as handicapped as some would think. Shooting side by side with the class she kept up the rate of fire and was able to reload it fast enought to keep up with the turning targets. Hell, I felt that I was not keeping up with her and I had a 1911! True, she is a highly trained instructor but it opened my eyes to what a SA can do in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. If you are willing to put the time into it, a SA can be an effective defensive weapon.

[405]

With so many good DAs to choose from, why a SA for that purpose? So no, IMO.

[krag35]

Not a good choice for me, but I'd take it over chunkin rocks at some bad guy.

[500bfrman]

how many gun battles last longer than 5 or 6 shots each?

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a Ruger BH in 45 Colt that I would not hesitate to use for social purposes. However it is big and heavy. I also have a .44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog with a short snout that is very concealable and light in weight.

The Bulldog is my CCW weapon when concealibility and weight are most important. If the weather is cooler and I can conceal my Browning then the Hi Power with 147 Gr Double Tap rounds is what I carry.

Any gun is better than none and if you can hit your target with your 380 ACP better than your .45 ACP then you should carry the smaller gun.

[Ferdinand]

I voted go for it if that's what you are comfortable with and trained with. For me, I would never carry a SA. For starters, they are typically to big and heavy for me to carry daily - concealed without a jacket or other top cover. Second, if a situation arises that calls for use of a gun for PD, your pulse will be 160 bpm or faster, adrenaline will be flowing hard. Under those circumstances, fine motor skills go out the window. That's when something along the lines of "point and shoot" prevails, IMHO.

If you have trained sufficiently to control your physiological fight/flight natural reactions, and can handle a SA under those circumstances, then you're good to go. Otherwise, a gun less demanding of one's fine motor skills might be a better fit.

[Combat Diver]

If your comfortable and profienct with it. There are times when I'm woods roaming and a SA revolver is all I have on. For normally day to day carry I'll either carry my 1911 or Smith 442 in the pocket, however I always have another SA revolver carried as a backup and that's a NAA mini revolver in .22LR.

CD

[home in oz]

Think about the 45 Long Colt.

A 250 grain or more slug.

One of them should take the fight out of most bad guys if it is well-placed.

[DAMN YANKEE]

Yes I say, sometimes I carry a Bisley Blackhawk 45.:drinks:

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Any gun is better than no gun.
90 some % of all civilian gunfights are 1 shot. Just the presence of a gun stops most everything. So yes I feel quit content with a single shot on my person.

[Bret4207]

Providing you avoid the obvious bad ideas- dealing drugs, starting fights with armed people in bars, fooling with other folks significant others, burglarizing homes and businesses, assassinating heads or state, stuff like that- and assuming you're not actually dumber than a rock and know enough to avoid obvious pitfalls (see above) then I see no reason the average person armed with a SA wouldn't be as likely to survive the typical armed encounter as the guy with the WonderNineTacticalExtremeBottomFeedingNinja gun. The mere presence of a weapon is alleged to have the calming effect on BG's needed something like 80% of the time according to some stats (believe what you wish). If the BG has the drop on you from the start (been there- a 22LR looks huge pointed at your face) then all the fire power in the world isn't going to help.

Ah, whatever. I tire of the High Road type discussions that always end up going in the same circles. Use what YOU feel is good. I've carried from a 25 Auto to a 45ACP. They all work.

[btroj]

To each his own.
Might not be my first choice but I wont tell someone else how to defend himself. With practice you can become vert proficient at reloading.
If you feel comfortable with single action, go for it.

[HeavyMetal]

Aren't you the fella that posted a few weeks ago he was worried about the gang activity in the Tex-Mex border area he lived in?

Gang activity means just that: Armed Multiple Morons!

While I think the Single action pistol is a neat tool, I have owned several but don't right now, the fact remains these are called "Crank & Yanks" for a reason!

Add in the fact that no matter how fast you are you are never going to re load a Crank & Yank as fast as you can reload an auto pistol.

I think selecting a single action pistol for this type of possible defense is a way bad idea!

Using a single action because it's what you have is, as always, better than rocks.

But in this case you have a choice as to what you carry because you are planning defense ( proactive) rather than having defense thrust upon you ( reactive).

Once again a small single stack 9mm or 40 1911 style pistol and a couple spare mags will get you what you need when you need it.

[casterofboolits]

Supposedly the average gun fight is under seven yards and lasts for 2.7 rounds. Altho not my first choice, it could get the job done in the hands of a man that knows what he is doing. The SA's I have shot seem to point very nicely, especially the Colt clones.

As long as you're not going up against multiple armed assailants in which case I would prefer at least a mortar squad or a Cobra gunship as back up! Cause even my Colt Combat Commander with two spare eight round mags would be hard pressed to handle multiple armed BG's. Just my two (inflated) bucks worth.

Some gun is better than no gun.

[ItZaLLgooD]

Not my first choice. I feel there are better options out there. I wouldn't purchase a SA revolver for defense. But I would use one if I needed to.

[home in oz]

FWIW, my 'working on the farm always on me" rig is a SIG 226, with a large capacity mag and two more on my pistol belt.

So far it has been up to the task of dispatching copperheads and a rabid skunk.

For BGs, this would not be my first choice.

[Char-Gar]

To have a valid poll, you need to include a category entitled "I don't give a damn!"

[bob208]

well i answered they are good. but then i used one for self defense.
at the time i was carring a ruger blackhawk in .357 with 45/8 barrel. i stopped at a red light a porch monkey came running over grabed me by the neck and yelled get out of my car . i grabed the above pistol shoved between his eyes cocked the hammer. i guess him seeing the hollow points going round changed his mind. he let go and got out of there fast.

[frank505]

Here I carry a 3 3/4 Vaquero with 335 Keiths at 1075 when the bears are out. Otherwise a 1911, especially when I go to Texas, see the post above about TexMex border.
bob208, way to go!!! I'll bet that boy saw Jesus

[EDK]

I shoot 24 rounds right handed and 24 with the left daily....two handed Weaver stance...with 5.5 inch VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS in either 357 or 44. I feel relatively comfortable walking around the farm. More stressful moments would require my 624, 625, 627, 629 or 645....more likely an 870 or M1A.

A better idea is to go quietly about your business and avoid places where it might be "stomp a stranger night." I drink SODA at my faorite saloon, know most of the staff, and leave when anyone gets rambunctious....and I go there about once a month.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[bhn22]

deleted

[redneckdan]

Up here I most often carry a large bore revolver, normally a 629 but I recently picked up at flat top 44 that I have taken a liking to. On the rare event that I have to go down state I usually take my 1911 and load up every magazine I have.

[ole 5 hole group]

A single-action will do just fine. Just be pro-active, as it’s better to have the revolver in hand and ready to go, than draw on the run going for cover after taking fire. If you get off the 1st shot and take the BG down the others will scatter for cover, as will you, and everything will settle down pretty quickly - because their easy prey turned mean and most turds want nothing to do with an armed stranger who knows how to use his revolver.

Your biggest hassle will probably be with the legal system.

[101VooDoo]

Nothing wrong with packing a single action.

And if you think you'll need more than six shots,

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h308/101voodoo/holliday930.jpg

Just bring two.

Jim

[Lonegun1894]

I often carry a 4 5/8" Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt. Especially when it gets colder and people go nuts with the heavy clothing. So it's the 1911 for nice weather, and the Vaquero when it gets cold. Then there's the BUGs...

[jh45gun]

I would hate to come up against the man who can use a SAA than some punk who holds a 45 auto sideways or some one who buys a semi auto for defense then never shoots it. I feel good with a SAA and do not feel undergunned. As far as coming across gangs if your going in them areas then you are better off with a PUMP shotgun or Semi Auto scatter gun. For what it is worth they called them Model 97's and 12's Trench guns because you could hold the trigger back and empty out a trench as fast as you could pump the gun. My Fighting shotgun is a 97.

[RobS]

Shoot what you think will save your ars when it counts. Practice with such gun often so it becomes second nature; an innate behavior where thought isn't necessary while under distress.

Think about this, how many cowboys and ranchers of the past used single action revolvers to save themselves, their families and their livelyhoods? Of course at that time there were fewer choices too.

As for me, a DA is the direction I would go..............if need be.

[LIMPINGJ]

I started with a SA 41years ago so am must comfortable with that type action.

[wallenba]

I'm guessing that in real life, as opposed to TV gunfights, it's all over with just a couple of shots exchanged before both parties retreat or one falls. Exception being the gangsta with his AK.
But living near Detroit I have a Ruger SR9 with two magazines ready at home (51 rounds). My summer carry is a Ruger LCP (two mags), and winter carry a Walther PK380.

[Groo]

Groo here
In some states [I think Texas is one] you need to show that shooting more than one shot
was necessary [to the judge]
It has suggested that a single action [being required to be cocked for each shot]
forces you to stop and observe the threat to see if another is needed..
otherwise most single actions are smaller/lighter than a similar cal double action,
like a New Vaquero in 357-44spec or 45colt

[gray wolf]

You stop shooting when the threat is neutralized--end of that story.
If the BG falls down and still has a grasp on a weapon and attempts to raise it in your direction he gets shot a gain--end of that story.
If he is going down and can still point it at you he gets shot again.
Come on ! this is real life here, If I have to use my 45 ACP it's a no questions asked double tap. center mass.
Don't ever go anyplace with a gun that you wouldn't go without a gun.
Don't be a hero
That said if you carry a SA pistol you dam well better know your limitations.
You can't always pick and choose and dead is for a long time.
I here all this talk about how good every one is, well how good is that ?
A bad day can happen at night, in the morning, in the dark, and most times when you are not expecting it. Could be One person, two or three or what ever.
Going with the statistics could make you a statistic. Unless your shot is a total instant
incapacitation the fight is not over, and don't believe everybody runs at the first shot.
IMHO- is SA handgun a good self defense weapon ? Sure is if everyone has the same SA.
and your dam good with yours, I mean really good.
Why be out gunned in a gun fight ? why give the BG an edge.
A good wheel gun with extra speed loaders or a semi auto with at least 2 extra mags.
and always retreat if you can but if you can't you are in for the time of your life.
A shoot out is a shoot out, civilian, LEO, or military.
How many carry a SA pistol ? How many don't have extra ammo?
That is just my thought, you may do what ever you want, Just do it safely.

Sam

[wills]

Groo here
In some states [I think Texas is one] you need to show that shooting more than one shot
was necessary [to the judge]
It has suggested that a single action [being required to be cocked for each shot]
forces you to stop and observe the threat to see if another is needed..
otherwise most single actions are smaller/lighter than a similar cal double action,
like a New Vaquero in 357-44spec or 45colt

Can you cite the statute on that?

[500bfrman]

to hear some people talk I need a beta c mag or I can't even walk out of the house.

[longhorn]

I'm with Bret. Stay away from dangerous situations. Home invasion? I typically answer the door with a handgun in my hand, but a determined effort would (probably) take me every time. Are you willing to live your life in body armor with an M4 in your arms? With a sixgun on my hip I'm better armed and better prepared than at least 95% of the population. Spending my time in a suitably grim urban environment might prompt me to upgrade to a Glock or 1911 plus 2 mags, but not if I could follow Bret's rules.....meanwhile, a single action lends great comfort.

[TCLouis]

I like many have to say that it would not be my first choice, but then you with SA 45 Long colt, vs me with empty hands, I think you can feel safer!

[Muddy Creek Sam]

For self defense, Anything I have ammo for, Loaded guns first.

Sam :D

[chaos]

90 percent of the time, way out here, I carry a 5 1/2 SBH in 44 mag.

If I am going into town and think about it, The 1911 goes with, if not, the sbh does.

I carry more for controling any wild hogs that I run across than anything else.

[MtGun44]

Far ahead of harsh language!

For the first 5 or 6 you can be hell on wheels but if you need a number 7 it will be a LONG
time coming.

Personal choice, have at it.

MY personal choice is a 1911 most of the time.

chaos - just keep in mind that sometimes those "wild hogs" walk on
their hind legs. . . . .:bigsmyl2:

Bill

[Bullshop]

The most important factor when involved in a gun fight is to have a gun.
It also helps to have a cool head and the presence of mind to WATCH THAT FRONT SIGHT!
The rest of the details are not nearly as important, unless maybe if you are in Afghanistan.

[Landric]

I can't carry a single action revolver even on my own time due to department policy. However, if I could, I wouldn't feel under armed with a number of different single action revolvers. The first that comes to mind is one of the new Ruger Sheriff's .44 Specials with a nice heavy Keith SWC or WFN loaded to 1000 fps or so. I'm one of those people who always carries a backup gun. If I were to carry a SA revolver as my "primary", I'd choose either a DA revolver or perhaps a compact auto (like a S&W 3953) as my BUG. Most gun fights won't require more than six shots, and in the event I was unlucky enough to find myself in one, drawing a second gun is faster than reloading just about anything. I'm a big fan of the .44 Special, and the total lack of DA carry friendly .44 Specials that can stand up to stout loads makes the SA revolvers appealing as carry weapons.

I recently was involved in a surveillance operation where we were pretty sure the suspects were armed and willing to fight. I did my shift armed with three handguns (my issued Glock 23 and my personally owned SP101 .357 and S&W 432PD) and my department issued Mini-14. I had 60 rounds of ammunition for the Mini and a total of 54 rounds of handgun ammunition at my disposal. Thankfully I didn't need any of it. That is not the kind of situation where I would choose a single action revolver. On the other hand, for general carry duties where even needing a gun is unlikely, I would feel perfectly comfortable with a SA revolver as my primary weapon.

[Lonegun1894]

Can you cite the statute on that?

No one will because it isn't in TX statute--thankfully. I cant speak for other states, but we dont have this specific nonsense on our books. :mrgreen:

[ironhead7544]

If you can hit with it then I think its OK. I have been carrying a Glock 9mm with CorBon 115 grain loads for many years. Spent most of my time in the big city. Now living in the country. Recently saw a video of a black bear eating a deer that had been hit by a car. The deer was still alive as the bear ate his guts. We have bears around here. Thinking of switching to a Ruger New Vaquero in 44 Special with Elmer's loading.

[bbs70]

There is no concealed carry in this sorry state of Illinois.
But if and when we do get it then I will carry my Glock.

I love my .45 single action guns and prefer shooting them over the Glock.
But from what I've read over the years about police shoot outs.
With the adrenalin flowing from the encounter and being shot at and trying to return accurate fire, and trying to find something to take cover behind, it is quite difficult to hit your target.

Being a regular citizen I have not the experience of an armed encounter.
Except for military training, which to me is a different animal all together.
You know you're going to get shot at and are ready to return fire.

So I figure the first couple of my shots might miss the intended target.
I would prefer a semi-auto as a measure of assurance of having enough shots to protect myself.

I seem to remember a shootout (I believe it happened in the 70s ) between FBI agents and some para-military (?) group.
The agents had revolvers the group had rifles.
While behind their car for cover one of the agents was wounded and was trying to reload his revolver when one of the gunmen came around the side of the car and shot him dead.

I've always remembered this and I would rather have 15 .40 cal rounds and not have to use them all rather than just 6 shots no matter what caliber.

But to each their own, everyone has their own thoughts and ideas, this is just mine.:bigsmyl2:

[jh45gun]

SAA VS 1911 If you cannot get it done with 5 or 6 shots what makes ya think ya can get it done with 9?

[John Van Gelder]

2ndAmendmentNut

If you shoot the vaquero well and are comfortable shooting it in high stress situations, then by all means. Guns of that configuration have always pointed well for me, and being able to hit quickly with the first shot is worth more than having to count on a reload because the first cylinder full had no effect.

[pipehand]

As I type this I'm wearing a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt. I was crawling around in the thickets earlier today trying to shoot a deer. I don't feel the need to put on my 1911 now that hunting is over.
Its been mentioned a couple of times in this thread that in high stress situations, fine motor skills go away. True, but in a gunfight you're not going to be trying to rebuild a wristwatch. What you will do is revert to training and muscle memory. If you practice and compete with a Single Action pistol, it will be natural for you to respond appropriately. If you don't practice, it doesn't matter what you're packing.

[John Van Gelder]

pipehand

I like the analogy about the wristwatch. I am a retired State Policeman and have seen the results of the man with a gun he was familiar with as opposed to the one who was not. There were a couple of chaps in remote Alaska who got in a dispute at a village spring, one lad started filling the air with lead from an Uzi, the other fellow returned fire with a 2 1/2 " model 19 S&W, his first shot was a 10X, right through the heart. Tactical situation solved.

[Groo]

Can you cite the statute on that?
Groo here
This was not in the statute but published in one of the Police mags
as a rulling by the judge [ It was said he was mad about the bad duds
coming in with so many holes in them and stated the self defence
statute had wording about only shooting till the danger was past]
[ I have incountered this in other Shooting rags and although it seems strange
I do believe that the current training is causing this]
We say shoot till the threat goes away but how many times is the threat defigned?
I myself have done this hunting deer-- " I aimed every shot"
My friends said that it had to be me shooting as I was the only one who
could shoot a 44 mag that fast!
I believe that "Time Dialation" Aka Mind in Turbo occured and time slowed down
For Me.
In a life or death situation this can also happen resulting in " I shot him but he didn't go down" What really happens is that the BG did not have Time to
react to the shot and as Time had Slowed Down for the Shooter it looks
like the shot had no effect.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I would use a SA if that was what was to hand, but if there was a double action within reach, it would be a no brainer for me. My shooting over the past five years has seen hundreds of rounds through DA revolvers, a few thousand through 1911 SA Autos and many, many thousands through SA revolvers.

If I was to use a SA Revolver, it would be a 45Colt. Those suckers are the fastest to load, just throw a round in the loading gate and it is all hole! The round seems to self chamber. You have to line up the 38/357s. The 44/40s are good also, but the Colt is the best to reload, big a$$ed holes on the target as well :D

[bearcove]

For SD I think you dance with what you brung. I carry when in the woods not so much in town, and lot of times that is a Ruger BH 4 5/8 41 mag. Seems a good choice to me since I've mainly shot rugers since I was 12 years old. I can shoot it without thinking, aiming or not.

Rather that than be wondering "does the saftey go up or down?"

Also like S&W DA

[Four Fingers of Death]

For SD I think you dance with what you brung. I carry when in the woods not so much in town, and lot of times that is a Ruger BH 4 5/8 41 mag. Seems a good choice to me since I've mainly shot rugers since I was 12 years old. I can shoot it without thinking, aiming or not.

Rather that than be wondering "does the saftey go up or down?"

Also like S&W DA

Cain't hardly argue with that!

[John Van Gelder]

I have been a hand gun shooter since I was 14 yoa, that is over 50 years ago. I have carried a bit of everything, and for a number years until my retirement, "carrying" was a condition of my employment.

On my own time I carried a lot of single actions and never felt handicapped. There was a time when the single action was all there was and it served well. Some of us find ourselves in a position where we can only afford to have one gun and what we end up with is based on budget constraints. My first hand gun came down to a choice between a used Mod 29 S&W and used Blackhawk .44, both were priced a $95.00. It took a considerable amount of time for me to save that up back then. I bought the Smith, just because my dad had one, and that was good enough reason for me, I shot that gun until it was about worn out and then traded it straight across for my first Super Blackhawk, which then became my everything gun.

There have been lots of double actions, single actions and semi auto since. But back in those days when I had one gun it worked for whatever I needed.

There is an old saying: "Beware the man with one gun, because he probably knows how to use it."

[wills]

Groo here
This was not in the statute but published in one of the Police mags
as a rulling by the judge [ It was said he was mad about the bad duds
coming in with so many holes in them and stated the self defence
statute had wording about only shooting till the danger was past]
[ I have incountered this in other Shooting rags and although it seems strange
.

Which judge, and what happened on appeal?



By BOB SABLATURA, Houston Chronicle, November 04, 1998
One of the officers nobilled in the death of Pedro Oregon Navarro fired his semiautomatic pistol at the 22-year-old man until the magazine was empty, then reloaded and continued firing.
In all, Officer David R. Barrera fired 24 of the 33 shots discharged in Oregon's southwest Houston apartment July 12, according to sources familiar with the investigation.
Assistant District Attorney Ed Porter confirmed that Barrera fired most of the shots. While the medical examiner's office could not determine the exact caliber of the bullets that made the 12 wounds in Oregon's body, Porter said, three of the four bullets recovered from the body were fired from Barrera's weapon.
Porter, who was present on the scene a few hours after the shooting -- and reconstructed it during a walk-through with the officers involved -- suggested that the bullets that struck Oregon may have been some of the last shots that the officers fired.
"I strongly suspect that was the case," Porter said.
Richard Mithoff, an attorney representing Oregon's family, said it is "incomprehensible" that one of the officers paused to reload his weapon.
"They had no grounds to be in the apartment, and no grounds to open fire," Mithoff said. "And if this is true, there certainly was no grounds to reload and execute this guy lying on the ground."
Aaron Ruby, a member of the Justice for Pedro Oregon Coalition, said Barrera's actions could only be termed "homicidal and premeditated," and probably explain the numerous bullet holes in Oregon's back.
"If that fact was known to the grand jury, it makes their actions all the more outrageous," Ruby said. "I believe the people of Houston will be stunned when they learn of this."
Harris County District Attorney John B. Holmes Jr. said state law allows police officers to use deadly force if they believe it necessary for self-defense and can continue shooting "so long as they reasonably perceive" the threat continues.
"An analogy I use is that if it is OK to kill a guy dead, it is OK to kill him dead, dead, dead," Holmes said.
Holmes said it is also not uncommon for a police officer involved in a shooting to have no idea how many shots he fired.
http://www.lulac.net/advocacy/issues/rights/hc11-4.html

[AJ Peacock]

I voted NO. Even though I've shot a SA more (10x more) than any other type of handgun. Competed in SASS at a very high level for many years and feel very comfortable with a SA (shooting traditional/2 handed, duelist/one handed, or gunfighter/one in each hand). I'd say with all the options available, the SA handgun is better than only 3 options.
1) Derringer
2) Single shot
3) No pistol at all

I hate glocks, but carry a G23 because it has the fewest weak points from a self defense standpoint of any readily available handgun. I just wish I was as proficient with it as I am with a SA. I just need to wear one or two out, to get to that level.

BTW: Here is a video of me winning the Midwest Regional Cowboy Action SASS shootoff in 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W9vkhHG6vk

AJ

[John Van Gelder]

AJ Peacock

I watched the video, not sure why you said "no"

[AJ Peacock]

AJ Peacock

I watched the video, not sure why you said "no"

Better options available in the following categories:

1) Semi-auto's are thinner and thus, easier to conceal.
2) Semi-auto's are easier to reload.
3) Semi-auto's have better options for concealment holsters.
4) Semi-auto's are SIGNIFICANTLY faster to shoot one handed.
5) Semi-auto's have a lot higher capacity.
6) Double actions are faster one handed.
7) Double actions are faster to reload (swing out cylinders and speed loaders).

That being said, I'd rather have one of my SA's than nothing, but I have much better options. I've NEVER carried one of my SA's concealed, for the above reasons.

Not to mention, if I ever have to use my Glock to defend myself and others, the police will take my pistol for 2-3 years [smilie=b: .

Losing a Glock wouldn't be a big deal, but I'd really hate to lose one of my SA's :p

AJ

[canyon-ghost]

I'd think any Single Action with a '4' as a first number would do the job. I happen to own a 41 mag, if it'll shoot accurately to 100 meters, I don't see the first shot as any kind of warning!

[John Van Gelder]

AJ Peacock

As an old retired police officer and fire arms instructor, the one hand thing is not valid in combat one is always encouraged to shoot with both hands, reloading is probably not an issue because most gun fights over very quickly, and one way or another there will probably be no time/opportunity to reload. I have no idea if you were shooting a target or just shooting for time, but that was very fast, that may .45s on a target that quickly should solve any tactical situation. I am not saying that the double action revolver of Semi-auto are not better choices but if the SA was all you had my money would be on you prevailing.

Thanks for sharing the video, that was impressive.

[AJ Peacock]

AJ Peacock

As an old retired police officer and fire arms instructor, the one hand thing is not valid in combat one is always encouraged to shoot with both hands, reloading is probably not an issue because most gun fights over very quickly, and one way or another there will probably be no time/opportunity to reload. I have no idea if you were shooting a target or just shooting for time, but that was very fast, that may .45s on a target that quickly should solve any tactical situation. I am not saying that the double action revolver of Semi-auto are not better choices but if the SA was all you had my money would be on you prevailing.

Thanks for sharing the video, that was impressive.

Those were all shot on metal targets 5 x 12" round at about 7yds for the pistol and 10x12" at 15yds for the rifle. 8 Knockdowns for the shotgun.

AJ

[John Van Gelder]

AJ Peacock

That is very acceptable combat accuracy..

[Bullshop]

John Van Gelder
It humors me much to see how the tactical handgun hold idea has changed over time.
I have in my collection a book written by a J Fitzpatrick I think his name was or something close to that. He was a wrench for S&W at the camp Perry matches and he was also a police instructor. He taught a one hand hold and that is what was standard in his day. There is a pic of two officers with duty 38's fired one hand hold at 600 yards at the human torso target and there are no misses after each man fired a full cylinder. He even makes a comment about a two hand hold not being as accurate. My how times change! BTW its a good book if you get a chance to read it. It called "Shooting By Fitz" He was Elmer's mentor.
OH yes BTW I forgot to mention weather in the field or in town I carry a Ruger single six center fire in either 22 CCM or 32 mag and feel far from naked. When in town I do carry a Bond Arms 45/410 back up too. With those I feel better protected from armed predators than from unarmed ones.

[John Van Gelder]

Bullshop

Things have changed over time, I have enjoyed the writings of Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith's books, had a lot of good information and some history as well. I recall an incident where Mr. Keith was reported to have finished off a deer for a fellow hunter at 600 yards with a hand gun, there were a lot of folks in the shooting community that, felt that was impossible. Which in turn spawned an article of some chaps proving it was not...

I have been known to find a comfortable spot to lie down with a dusty meadow on the other side of a canyon and lob .45 colt slugs at rocks and the like.

[NickSS]

I personally like SA revolvers a lot both in cartridge and cap and ball persuasion. I mostly carry either one of them or a Six inch barreled DA revolver when out in the woods or hunting. I would feel comfortable defending myself with one of them if that was all I had with me. However, for CCW when I go to town I usually take a semi auto DA pistol. I will not carry a SA pistol for two reasons. First if I carry in cocked and locked I have to remember to take the safety off. If I carry it condition 2 I have to remember to cock the hammer. As I am not the sort of person who practices to an extent that mussle memory takes over I avoid the issue by not dealing with it. I have carries just about every type of handgun at one time or another (even a flint lock single shot) but today I carry a DA Auto with a large capacity mag. Usually a 9mm but when size is important I carry a 380. The two guns I mostly carry is a Baby Desert Eagle Compact or a Bersa 380 Thunderer. However I sometimes carry my Glock 17. On rare occations I will carry a DA revolver mostly my SP101 Ruger.

[9.3X62AL]

AJ--

You'll do fine to ride the river with, I'd say. Regardless of sidearm configuration. Well done, sir.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
WOW FOUR FINGERS ,that's some shooting.
Master Funikoshi said you never lose a fight you avoid.
I do believe in the KISS method,
stick with what you are good at & know the best.
So in my case it would have to be revolvers.
I also practice both R. & L. hand.
A cool head , determination, & shot placement count.
In a life & death fight, there is only 1 rule. WIN!:Fire::Fire:

[Ferdinand]

AJ, Excellent shooting there. It sounds like you and I are in the same school though when it comes to an actual confrontation that warrants armed response - I posted earlier indicating my preference for a gun that's simple to operate under extreme pressure.

Good luck in an attempt to wear out a Glock. Not pretty, but very reliable and easy to operate, mechanically simple, and easy to shoot. I've seen some range rentals with over 250,000 rounds through them - 9mm mind you. While I'm a fan of SA's, and my favorite handgun is a GP100, a Glock is tough to beat when it really counts.

[Bret4207]

Groo here
This was not in the statute but published in one of the Police mags
as a rulling by the judge [ It was said he was mad about the bad duds
coming in with so many holes in them and stated the self defence
statute had wording about only shooting till the danger was past]
[ I have incountered this in other Shooting rags and although it seems strange
I do believe that the current training is causing this]
We say shoot till the threat goes away but how many times is the threat defigned?
I myself have done this hunting deer-- " I aimed every shot"
My friends said that it had to be me shooting as I was the only one who
could shoot a 44 mag that fast!
I believe that "Time Dialation" Aka Mind in Turbo occured and time slowed down
For Me.
In a life or death situation this can also happen resulting in " I shot him but he didn't go down" What really happens is that the BG did not have Time to
react to the shot and as Time had Slowed Down for the Shooter it looks
like the shot had no effect.


The first thing to do is stop believing everything you read in gun rags. Same goes for the cop rags. I used to read the cop rags in the crapper at work. 90% advertising, 8% ego inflating, 2% actual fact.

[9.3X62AL]

The first thing to do is stop believing everything you read in gun rags. Same goes for the cop rags. I used to read the cop rags in the crapper at work. 90% advertising, 8% ego inflating, 2% actual fact.

Bret was clearly in a generous and indulgent mood when he wrote this. :)

[John Van Gelder]

Since some one has brought up the legal issues; Civilians are not held to the same standard as police officers, they have a bit more latitude. The universal rule for policemen is that you can "take a life to save a life".

If you are going to carry anything for self defense then it behooves you to make yourself familiar with the laws concerning use of deadly force in your jurisdiction. Just because you survive the shooting does not mean that you will survive the subsequent court actions. This topic has gone around on a number of forums, and everyone has different ideas of what is important. One of the things that should be on your list of preparedness for the situation you hope never comes is to have a good attorney, not the guy that does wills and estate planning but a real criminal lawyer with actual court room experience in homicide, manslaughter and wrongful death cases.

I have over 30 years experience in the criminal justice system, working both sides of the court room. In most cases if you are involved in a fatal shooting the police will assume they are working a homicide until they can prove it is otherwise.

If you shoot some one your firearm will be seized as evidence, and maintained as such until after any court proceedings, criminal, civil and any appeal actions.

Thew bottom line is that you need to do whatever it takes to survive in both "arenas".

[ironhead7544]

Ask Thell Reed about the single action.

[John Van Gelder]

ironhead7544

Thell Reed that's a name I have not heard in a very long time..

[Limey]

....has anybody had to actually use a SA for self defence?......what was the outcome?

....lot's of theories being put forward.....both pro and con....but has anybody got any real hard fact data to share?....

Straight shootin',

Limey

[ole 5 hole group]

In his day, Reed Jr. had no equal.

[ole 5 hole group]

I recall last year there was something on TV where an older gentleman (looked to be late 50's early 60's) was open carrying and unknowingly entered a convenience store while it was being robbed.

He was wearing a SA 45 Colt and engaged the "homies" and prevailed killing one of the BGs.

The reason for the story was that he was open carrying and prevented a robbery and possible murder of the clerk, as the clerk thought she was going to be killed.

[Combat Diver]

I remember that story (either in Virgina or W.V) and that he had to fan fire it as he bent the trigger guard in as he dove for cover. Believe it was a 1875 Remington Italian copy.

[Landric]

It was in Richmond, Virginia. The end result was the perp killed and the SA revolver open-carrier alive, as well as everyone else in the store. IIRC the news story said that the trigger on the gun broke off during the exchange (and before the perp was stopped), but the guy with the SA revolver was still able to fire his gun because of the design. Any other gun with a broken off trigger would have been out of action.

[signsrup]

I pass that store everyday on the way to my place. Open carrier is still there on occasion, standing outside, or picking up the parking lot. He's got "street creds" now, and the thugs steer clear.

[ironhead7544]

Thell Reed is still around. Do a search.

[waksupi]

Thell Reed is still around. Do a search.

So is his old shooting buddy, Jack Simms. Went fishing with him Monday. Jack held some quick draw records at the same time, and is credited for introducing fanning into the competitions.

[9.3X62AL]

It was in Richmond, Virginia. The end result was the perp killed and the SA revolver open-carrier alive, as well as everyone else in the store. IIRC the news story said that the trigger on the gun broke off during the exchange (and before the perp was stopped), but the guy with the SA revolver was still able to fire his gun because of the design. Any other gun with a broken off trigger would have been out of action.

I love a happy ending.

[cajun shooter]

I am a SASS shooter and Retired Cop who was also a Firearms Instructor and Sniper on the Swat team. While a cop I lost two riding partners and a total of 7 friends in 15 years. I was in a few gun fights as a cop and they are no where close to anything I have done as a cowboy shooter. First of all and I say this with the up most respect. AJ, you are one great SASS shooter but you are shooting mouse fart loads at 5-7 yds. There is no way you would react the same in a gunfight and you know it. My duty gun for a while was a 4in S&W 19 and when fired with the issue 158 gr RP's there was considerable recoil even under stress. The one odd thing is and if you have been there you will understand what I am about to say. You don't hear the muzzle blast even though your ears are not protected with muffs. If you were to fire a hot load inside your home your ears would ring and be stopped up not so during a firefight. Shoot a 12 ga. with magnum 00 buckshot and see if you can fire three rounds in under a second. My point is this as I voted yes. There are many better guns to be armed with if you are in a prolonged firefight. I was in one that I fired over 120 rounds from a 357 and m-16. But most of the time it will be over in the first round with a make sure second round. When I trained my officers I told them to always have back up ammo in your vehicle and don't depend on your personal carry only. I also taught them to not fire just one round and expect the felon to fall dead. On the famous FBI shootout in Miami IIRC they had three agents killed by a man that had already received non survivable wounds. The doctor said that he was dead on his feet while firing. I had one of my men kill a man that he shot 5 times. I had to testify in court that is the way I trained him to react. I used the FBI firefight and a few other cases of ours where officers were killed after they shot and hit the felon first. They quit firing while the bad guy kept going. My first choice would be a Sig 220 45 ACP but I would feel safe with my USFA 44-40.

[Bret4207]

CS, posts like that really let the wind out of the sails of the mallninjatacitalextreme crowd.....

[Mumblypeg]

There is a big difference between " Well I'd do so and so" and "I did so and so". Believe me I know... anyone who has been there knows also.

[jh45gun]

Single actions have been used as fighting arms for years just because there are semi auto's now and double action revolvers does not make a single action obsolete. For what it is worth double action guns in many cases have horrible trigger pulls making them hard to shoot and semi auto's do jam on occasion even the best of them can. I would hate to bet my life on one of them doing so.

You know that old saying beware of the man who owns one gun and knows how to use it well I would suspect that would fit a SAA shooter very well.

For what it is worth CS I only shoot standard loads in my Uberti and I shoot a model 97 shotgun that has no disconector and I used to shoot a model 12 that has no disconector either and I have shot both of them with mag hunting loads with the trigger held down as fast as I could pump it.

While I do not believe in hot loads on any gun I reload for non of my loads are "mouse fart" loads either.

[walltube]

I voted "yes", with reservation.

I wouldn't feel sorry for myself with a .45 SAA or a cap and ball if that were all I had available.

To choose a SA when there are other options? The circumstances would have to greatly favor me, as in an attempted break in of my home. There, I am, as is my wife, intimantely familiar with our house. This familiarity give us the upper hand particularly in a darkened house. They come to us, we not to them. We've practised this scenario, an ambush.

Now, to be realistic, my choice is none other than my EAA .45 ACP Witness with a 10 rnd. mag and two spares at the ready. Wifey has the 16rnd. 9mm version. These DA pieces have a cocked and locked ,safety on feature. Or, if we so wish a half cock position. Unlike a SA revolver there is no relaxing or modifying my hand's grasp to re-cock a fresh round into battery.

Reloading under stress? Don't anybody try to convince me the SA Colt's loading gate is easy. Col. Schofield had the answer for that. Swing-out cylinder and 6 rnd. speed loader? OK, maybe. For me, last rnd. fired with open slide, drop empty mag, insert fresh 10 rnd. mag and I'm ready to go. With strong or weak hand.

The point of my preceeding paragraph is that we cannot always choose the circumstance or terrain when we are suddenly faced with imminent harm, or death, by multiple assailants. The final decade of the 19th. Century went on to proove the revolver generally obsolete in combat. John Moses Browning made moot any argument pro or con.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Let's be nice to one another,
Wt.

[Abenaki]

I am a long time lurker.

I did use a Ruger Blackhawk in self defense.
Long story short..... It was a home invasion.....3 bad guys.
It is a sick feeling trying to load a single action type of hand gun, when the wolf is kicking down your door..and coming down your hallway!!!!!!!!!!

Sooo. What happend? I was pumped up on addrenaline + poor trigger discipline....I missed with the first shot. They did not stick around for a second shot.

Take care
Abenaki

[Ekalb2000]

What ever you carry, practice, practice, practice with the same load you will be carrying . And use what pistol you like and , practice, practice, practice until you are comfortable with what you carry. And don't forget to practice.

[jh45gun]

Well for one thing I am left handed so them SAA's I think load more natural for lefties since the loading gate is on the left side. thankful that the gun was designed for left hand use.

[Bret4207]

I am a long time lurker.

I did use a Ruger Blackhawk in self defense.
Long story short..... It was a home invasion.....3 bad guys.
It is a sick feeling trying to load a single action type of hand gun, when the wolf is kicking down your door..and coming down your hallway!!!!!!!!!!

Sooo. What happend? I was pumped up on addrenaline + poor trigger discipline....I missed with the first shot. They did not stick around for a second shot.

Take care
Abenaki

Abenaki- that's an unusual handle. Wouldn't have anything to do with Indian Lake would it?

[BruceB]

Well for one thing I am left handed so them SAA's I think load more natural for lefties since the loading gate is on the left side. thankful that the gun was designed for left hand use.


....sure, except that the loading gate is on the RIGHT side of the gun.

Of course, this puts the gate in perfect position for a left-hander's thumb, and the ejector rod is easily operated by the right hand. These are the reasons for long-lived conjecture that Sam Colt may have been a left-hander...the whole gun is better-suited to left-hand operation than it is for those weirdo right-handers (yes, I'm a lefty too).

Anyone who takes on a competent man who is armed with a single-action is drawing cards in a high-stakes game with a great deal of risk. I'd lose little sleep if a good single-action was my available artillery.

[ole 5 hole group]

I voted "yes", with reservation. Unlike a SA revolver there is no relaxing or modifying my hand's grasp to re-cock a fresh round into battery. Reloading under stress? Don't anybody try to convince me the SA Colt's loading gate is easy.

Most of us, (well, at least I do) use the off-hand thumb to cock the SA when shooting for group or at a moving target - no need to relax or adjust your grip when re-cocking.

Nothing easy or fast about reloading a SA for most under stress - but there's damn few times (about the same chance of winning the lottery)you'll ever need more than 5 or 6 shots when you're in Harm's Way.

Now, if you go looking for trouble you better be prepared to finish what you start or find yourself involved in and that usually involves extra ammo. Cajun shooter’s post of firing a lot of rounds during an engagement of sorts got me to recall an incident I was told about in Nebraska many years ago when the State Police Swat Team was called out and the perp came out of the house firing from the hip with an AR type rifle and the officers returned fire with theirs – a couple hundred rounds struck the side of the house, roof and God knows what else. The end result was the perp ran out of ammo & went back into the house and later surrendered and no one got hurt.

If they would have been using SA’s they could have saved a lot of taxpayer’s money on that go-around.:-)

[jh45gun]

....sure, except that the loading gate is on the RIGHT side of the gun.

Of course, this puts the gate in perfect position for a left-hander's thumb, and the ejector rod is easily operated by the right hand. These are the reasons for long-lived conjecture that Sam Colt may have been a left-hander...the whole gun is better-suited to left-hand operation than it is for those weirdo right-handers (yes, I'm a lefty too).

Anyone who takes on a competent man who is armed with a single-action is drawing cards in a high-stakes game with a great deal of risk. I'd lose little sleep if a good single-action was my available artillery.


OOps thats what I meant to say about the loading gate I was thinking LEFT when I meant to write Right. LOL which means it is easier for a lefty to load the gun as the gun is in your left hand already.

Sam Colt was dead by the time the 1873 came along he died in 1862 so he did not design it. I had heard it was designed for the Calvary and since the troopers used their right hands for their sabers the gun was designed for the left hand.

Even folks that should know better say that Sam Colt was left handed which is why the SAA is designed the way it is. Colt may have been left handed, but he was moldy in his grave by the time the Peacemaker came along.

[Abenaki]

"Abenaki- that's an unusual handle. Wouldn't have anything to do with Indian Lake would it?"

Nothing to do with a lake, but a whole lot to do with the blood running through my veins.

I think that a single action handgun is fine for self defense......Just have it loaded when you need it. Now days, I have a kimber 1911 for home defense!

Take care
Abenaki

[Artful]

Would I use it if that's all I had - you bet. Is there better choices of than a single action revolver - yep. You have to do what you feel comfortable with.

[unclebill]

thumbing the hammer back as i am drawing the gun has become second nature for me.
so i would say yes.
i voted whatever you are comfortable with.

[AJ Peacock]

... First of all and I say this with the up most respect. AJ, you are one great SASS shooter but you are shooting mouse fart loads at 5-7 yds. There is no way you would react the same in a gunfight and you know it. ...

You are correct, I've shot full house loads in my 357's and it does in fact slow me down a touch. But, still pretty fast. If you read my entire post(s), you'll have noticed that I voted NO and agree with you that there are MANY MUCH better options than a Single Action. BTW, the loads I was using in the video are around 900fps out of the revolvers, which are not really mouse fart level, but certainly not full house either.

Merry Christmas,
AJ

[Crash_Corrigan]

The discussion about single action revolvers vs. double action revolvers vs. single action semi autos vs double action autos is something that will be blowing in the wind long after we are all just a fading memory.

The most important thing a person can have in a gunfight (along with a gun of course) is the self confidence and ability to place the FIRST shot where it will do the most good no matter what weapon it came out of.

I have been involved in 6 incidents where I had to shoot someone over a 20 year career in LEO and one of them took place years after I had retired. In each case I was equipped with a Smith double action revolver. The first 5 involved me as a LEO and armed with S&W Model 10 .38 Special with a 4" tube. I won all of them because my first shot went where I wanted it to go. I was not encumbered with a saftey to take off or a slide to manupilate prior to shooting. All shots were fired double action and albeit the .38 is certainly wanting in knock down power it got the job done because of the place the round was delivered.

In each and every case I would have not been handicapped if I had been armed with a single action revolver. I had the time to assess the situation, form a plan, folllow the plan and deliver the round even though all this ususally took place in a few moments.

Today I have the choice of what calibre and type of weapon to carry. As most of the my carry is done CCW I have chosen a .44 Special loaded with factory ammo. A Hornady 180 gr XTP copper clad hollow point is the one I bet my life on. With this gun a double action of very light weight and not having a hammer spur is shot only double action and I expect if I need it I probably will be at very close range otherwise why would I need to shoot it? It is easy to conceal, to carry and I have practiced with it enuf to know that I can put the first round wherever it will do the most good at any range up to 20 yds.

From the moment I get up in the morning until I put my head down at night it resides on my right hip in a small black leather holster with a belt slide containing another 12 rounds of the same ammo ready for use.

However there are a pair of new members of the Corrigan household: 1st there is a very sexy S&W Model 57 with a 4" tube in 41 Remington Magnum. This thing had just been placed into the display case of my local gun shop. I had stopped there to get a copy of their FFL as it needed to be emailed to my seller for another gun. It closely resembled my beloved old NYCPD Smith except this one was on steroids. It had recessed chambers, wide target spurred hammer and a very wide trigger along with a red ramp front sight, micrometer rear sights and ribbing along the top of the barrel and frame. Adorned with Magna wood grips and without a blemish nor a scratch and in unfired condition with the original box it followed me home the next day.

I really did not need a revolver in 41 Mag but this thing brought back memories and I knew that if I did not buy it it would haunt me forever. So I bought it.

The 2nd new member was a .44 Special Ruger Bisley with a 5.5" tube and the older smaller frame etc. This also was new and in the original box and I found it on Auction Arms and I got it for a decent price.

I have not had a chance to fire either one of these revolvers but I expect they both will be winners. The double action .41 has much superior ballistics than the .44 Special and would be handy for shooting through walls, doors, windows and such but I believe would also penetrate pretty much anything I shoot with it.

This is not always good. I live in a thin walled tin trailer in a Seniors Only White Trash Trailer Park and an errant round would probably hit something that I would have difficulty in paying for. However a .44 Special with the abovemetioned round would probably stop a mite faster than the .41 and make a bigger hole besides.

So my second choice amongst these weapons would be based on calibre not style of weapon as either one would suffice for me once I got enuf rounds downrange to establish the required confidence level in both guns.

However I will say that the .41 is turning out to be a very expensive gun. So far I have only one mold for the boolit and two others on order. The one I have is a Lee 210 GR TLSWC two holer which will suffice for me to get some trigger time on this gun. I have a 3 holer Saeco 210 LFN mold on order as well as a full wadcutter with a hollow base from our vendor in Slovenia. The required set of reloading dies and necessary pieces to use on my Dilllon 550 and casefeeder have set me back a bunch. There are also some items which I have needed that are coming from Midway. Pretty much over 3/4 of the cost of the gun is being spent on the stuff I need to make rounds for it as I expect that the only factory fodder this gun will ever see going down the tube will be self defense rounds which I hope to never need.

Back to the argument at hand.....shoot whatever style of revolver or auto you are most confident and competent it keeping in mind that the 1st shot is the most important.

[cajun shooter]

AJ Peacock, You only showed a very small piece of my posting and then you assumed my answer to the poll which is WRONG!! I voted yes and if you would have read my complete posting you would have known that. If you are going to post the words of another then be fair about it. I stated in my posting that if I had a choice before the gunfight of which I have been in then my weapon of choice would be the Sig 220 45 ACP. My next sentence stated that if I was out and became involved in a firefight with only my USFA 44-40 then I would not feel under gunned. In fact with all my training I feel the other guy was the one in trouble. As far as your loads go that you showed in your video they are what I call mouse fart. The muzzle of any gun you shot had zero muzzle rise and to me that qualifies them to that class. Load a 44-40 with 36 grs of Swiss 2F and see if my or your loads are closer to what was used in the guns of the real West and not some TV show. The Revolver may be my gun at any time and I will be fine. You did what is a ASSUME and we all know what that contains. Have a good day and may you win many more cowboy contests.

[walltube]

"Most of us, (well, at least I do) use the off-hand thumb to cock the SA when shooting for group or at a moving target - no need to relax or adjust your grip when re-cocking."

I too qualify for your "Most of us," statement.

Here of late, shooting for group with my d.a. .44 Dan Wesson with any expectation of hitting the paper at 50yds. requires s.a. trigger pull only. Any moving target traveling faster than garden slug speed has an 85% chance of survival were I shooting d.a. The remaning 15% is mostly luck. Pine cones, on the other hand, quake in fear (or whatever it is they quake in) when I'm on the scene. :)

Using the Dan Wesson for home defence INSIDE THE BUILDING would not be my 1st. choice, given I have a choice. Having once touched off a potent .44 Mag round inside a darkened, empty home impressed me mightly. Very bright and very loud it was! .45ACP is a bit gentler and managable for the next round or two, if needed.

Be of Good Cheer,
Wt.

[smkummer]

A double action revolver is both safe and ready with the hammer down. A single action is not really ready with the hammer down and a cocked single action in a stressful situation is now a weapon with a hair trigger. One can forget how much force one has when the [edit] hits the fan. Of course this can be negated by keeping one's finger outside of the trigger guard on a cocked single action but a double action is still by far safer. Hopefully you never have to reload the single action in a gunfight either. Remember a situation that involves a deadly weapon that succesfully ends with no shots fired is almost always better than if shots were fired. Be safe out there!

[Dframe]

A single action revolver would not be my first choice, but I would certainly not feel disadvantaged if thats all I had.

[luckyjim]

Any dependale weapon is a good choise... you can't miss fast enough to win!;-)

If your picking a hand gun for a fire fight with mutiple targets.... you need to rethink your life....:coffee:

If you going to war... I hope you have more than a hand gun....:violin:

[1Shirt]

Interesting long thread with a number of philosophies. Any gun is better than a baseball bat or similar. Have no problem with single action, but want it loaded when I need it. Agree that loading a single in a hurry is not a real fun deal.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[bearcove]

Any dependale weapon is a good choise... you can't miss fast enough to win!;-)

If your picking a hand gun for a fire fight with mutiple targets.... you need to rethink your life....:coffee:

If you going to war... I hope you have more than a hand gun....:violin:

I am comfortable with my ruger.

BUT, a 12ga pump with #4 shot or larger is much better. :bigsmyl2:

The best choice is don't get in gun fights in the first place.

[DennisE]

If you choose to depend on a SA for self defense are you less likely to have it with you rather than in the car/truck or at home? Most SAs do not conceal as easily as a small semi-automatic or a J-frame. Dennis

[Charlie Sometimes]

Too big? Too heavy? What about a double stack 45 ACP, etc.? I think they are all too big and heavy if they are in any caliber substantial enough to end a confrontation quickly.
The worst feature about a single action could be "slow in reloadng"- but if you need more than 5 shots, you shouldn't be where you are. Reloading can be improved with practice, like anything else, though.

I voted YES, unequivocally. Carry what you are the most familar, and most comfortable with- to me that is a RBH single action in 45 Colt. My favorite CCW packin' pocket pistol is a S&W 5-shot break-top in 38 S&W, though.

[DennisE]

For those of us that live in South Florida concealing a pea shoot can sometimes be a challange. I'd love to carry my Lipsey Bisley flattop 44 special with which I'm quite handy but folks would surely notice the bulge in my tee shirt and shorts and think I was overly amorous...thus my SIG 238 most often rests in this honored place. Dennis

[2wheelDuke]

For those of us that live in South Florida concealing a pea shoot can sometimes be a challange. I'd love to carry my Lipsey Bisley flattop 44 special with which I'm quite handy but folks would surely notice the bulge in my tee shirt and shorts and think I was overly amorous...thus my SIG 238 most often rests in this honored place. Dennis


Sounds like you need a smaller pea shooter then. I can hang my P3AT in the waist of a pair of board shorts and nobody knows it's there.

I know a .380 is puny, and I'd rather have something more substantial like my Glock 30, but 7 rounds of .380 is still better than no gun at all. And I don't want to be shot with a .177 pellet gun, let alone a .380 hollowpoint.

As far as the topic goes, if I lived in an open carry state, or was carrying on horseback or something, I'd be comfortable with something like a SBH in .44mag on my hip.

[pjh421]

Hugs, not slugs. (heehee)

I don't care what you carry. Just the fact that you are carrying is good. You are taking responsibility for your own safety and not leaving it all to the police.

Paul

[pps]

Not right for me, unless it's all I have.

[garbear]

If you are good at using it I don't think the other person is going to complain when they get hit

[dunkel]

As others have said, more important than the particular gun is the shooter behind the gun. I'd bet on the guy with the SA who's put 10,000 rounds through it over some wannabe thug with a sideways Glock who hasn't even fired a full "clip" through it.

[.243 okie]

1: Any weapon, be it a .22 or even .32 ACP beat no weapon at all.
2: For those that are proficient in SA use and their sweet trigger pull or if nothing else is available, then yes SA. It's how the west was won... :)
3: For those that maintain their guns well, autos. Our current military and police force can't be too wrong.
4: For non-gun enthusiasts (some spouses, suburbanites, the people who are not likely to read this post etc), nightstand guns, simplicity, and concealability with short barrels, DAO. Can't snag what ain't there.

[NVScouter]

When I was Air Force Security Forces I was the local CATM NCOIC and more then a few times I would get a smack talker.

300 yard range with a mansized target at 200 and 300.

We'd run the M9 vs my stock 45LC Blackhawk and I kept pace even with reloads. Beat most score and would get a respectful nod. The real run was I'd take a knee very quickly and knock down the 200y target. After it reset they would try and fail with the 9mm then ask to give mine a wack. A decent shot could hit it 2-3 times out of 6 with my unfamiliar gun once I showed them how to use the front site more.

I'd run a single action in a heartbeat if it fit me. I carry a Ultralite in 38spl but i almost bought a 3" 45LC with a "birdshed (sp?) style grip that would have been sweet with normal loads.

[NHlever]

I'm here to tell you about a firefight where the other guys had full autos, and I didn't. Hitting your target is more important than expending the amount of rounds fired in the famous FBI Miami shootout.

[Tommy Kelly]

I own all types of handguns and would feel well armed for any situation with a single action. I have several double actions and always use them single action mode for accurate shooting. I also have a group of auto's as well. In my opinion I had rather have 1 good shot than a bunch of poorly placed shots because They are there. I am the same way with rifles I shoot either a bolt gun or a lever action or a single shot. The only autoloader I own is a 22 rifle. My shotguns are pump actions. I never was a spray and pray type. Just one good well placed shot will do.

[Swede44mag]

I have run into a number of guys that see my 45colt Ruger NM Vaquero as a poor choice of carry gun.

Something about a big gun with a big bore that tends to scare off some wood-be assailants.
I have NEVER had a revolver jam unlike some of the semi auto pistols I have owned.

If they are on enough drugs they are not rational in any case.

[Pertsev]

Well,the caliber is correct,hard to argue with good old 45 Colt. But a single action ?? It is much better than a sharp stick or a .25 auto.A good shootist,with practice can fire a single action quickly and accurately five or six times almost as fast as a good D/A revolver shootist.
If you need a reload quick tho you are SOL.Depending on percieved threat level you might want something that holds more shots. For the size and weight of the S/A revolver ,you could carry a 1911 or a GLOCK and spare mags.That said,a S/A 45 on the hip beats the GLOCK or 1911 that was left at home.

[HammerMTB]

I'm here to tell you about a firefight where the other guys had full autos, and I didn't. Hitting your target is more important than expending the amount of rounds fired in the famous FBI Miami shootout.

Are you implying that you were personally involved in the Miami shootout? And perhaps that you were carrying a single action revolver?
If so, then there is more to tell. If not, everyone has read the story.

[Combat Diver]

The bad guys didn't have full autos during the shootout either. One had a 870 12 ga and the other a semi Ruger Mini14.

CD

[HammerMTB]

The bad guys didn't have full autos during the shootout either. One had a 870 12 ga and the other a semi Ruger Mini14.

CD

[smilie=1: Yeah, I was kinda waitin' to hear that.... :roll:

[0verkill]

I'm here to tell you about a firefight where the other guys had full autos, and I didn't. Hitting your target is more important than expending the amount of rounds fired in the famous FBI Miami shootout.

I'd like to hear this story.

[oscarflytyer]

If I could carry open - I would def carry my 4 5/8" BH 44 Spc. Trick with it, like ANY carry gun, is to shoot/practice with it a LOT and be comfortable with it. I do, and am, with mine.

Only prob is, NO WAY can I conceal that hog leg like I can my Taurus 709 Slim...

But that 44 ALWAYS goes into the woods with me!

[Rodfac]

OK if you're sure of a one shot stop; but probably too big for real world, everyday carry. For me, it's gotta be easy, convenient, and ensures that I'll get more than one opportunity (read: shots off if surprised at arm length) to escape (the real reason I carry). Best regards, Rodfac

[Multigunner]

OOps thats what I meant to say about the loading gate I was thinking LEFT when I meant to write Right. LOL which means it is easier for a lefty to load the gun as the gun is in your left hand already.

Sam Colt was dead by the time the 1873 came along he died in 1862 so he did not design it. I had heard it was designed for the Calvary and since the troopers used their right hands for their sabers the gun was designed for the left hand.

Even folks that should know better say that Sam Colt was left handed which is why the SAA is designed the way it is. Colt may have been left handed, but he was moldy in his grave by the time the Peacemaker came along.

The scallop cut in the right hand side of the recoil shield of the Colt and other Cap & Ball revolvers made it easier to place caps on the nipples using the right hand which is for 6 out of 7 men the more dexterous hand and least likely to fumble around or drop caps or otherwise slow down reloading.
While the pistol was often used with the left hand I think the choice of which hand was best suited to handle caps or cartridges while under stress without dropping them determined which side the loading gate would be on. The side where the recoil shield is milled for the cylinder hand is another consideration. That amount of material having already been removed cutting even more metal away on the same side would have weakened the frame considerably.

I've always been perfectly comfortable in reloading a Colt Style single action, so I see no advantage in having the loading gate placed on the left hand side.
Since the pistol must be well supported by the left hand while loading its more natural to then grip the handle with the right hand immediately after closing the gate.

[fourdollarbill]

It's better than a stick. So yes it is a good choice.

[David LaPell]

Back when I was 19 and I first got my permit, the only gun I could afford was a Ruger Old Model Blackhawk .357 with the 4 5/8 inch barrel. I was working nights at a convenience store that the owner really skimped on for security. The camera was a dummy and it had no alarm. I knew alot of the cops back then and they all told me that the best thing I could do was to carry a gun. So I carried that. I wore it in a decent holster under a flannel shirt. Earlier that year we had a clerk shot and killed during a hold up even after he gave the three scumbags the money. They got him on his knees and shot him in the head and as he fell over they put two more bullets in his back. Of course had my boss caught me carrying that gun I would have been fired, but hey, she worked 8am to 3pm and I was the one working there are it got dark. The fact that the store was in walking distance of the highway made it about as easy of a target as you could get. I know it got robbed at least once after I quit working.
It's a proven fact that most gunfights among civilians don't even require more than two or three shots so the reloading thing might be a moot point. I personally would not at all feel undergunned if I had a SAA or a clone in anything from .357 on up. I used to also carry around an AWA Longhorn in .45 Colt but I am seriously considering finding a Vaquero in .44 Magnum or maybe even a .44 Special Blackhawk. I did an article a while back on George Patton's gunfight in Mexico where he took on three armed riders with his .45 Colt SAA, killing two of them. Believe me, a single action revolver is just as good now as it was back then.

[Worn_Holster]

I have nothing against someone using a SA revolver for SD; any gun that you are proficient with will give you an advantage over someone who is shooting a gun that they don't know. That being said, it seems like the question is a bit vague in that it does not specify what SD senario in which it would be used. Personally for CCW, I would prefer a more concealable pistol like my H&K P7, but a nice S&W 442 would make a great bug tied to my ankle. At home I do believe that my tactical Remington 870 loaded with 00 buck would be my first choice, but a 44 Mag on my night stand would be quicker to put into action. As for open carry, a person that can weild a SA from a holster accurately stands as good a chance as anyone to successfully protect themselves in a moment of need.

[dualsport]

Carrying a SA for self defense is romantic and fun. Fighting for your life is not. It's scary. There are way more sensible choices that will give you more of an ADVANTAGE in a nasty shootout. That's exactly the reason DAs and autos were invented, to give the owner more of an advantage. It's a strategy thing, never give up a position of advantage if you don't have to. That includes choice of weapons.

[David LaPell]

As I said before, it worked well for George Patton, and I can tell you that a .45 Colt will do wonders for any bad guy.

[dualsport]

Don't get me wrong, I like my SAs quite a bit and wouldn't feel that bad if that's what I had to use in a fight. I'd just feel better if I had a 1911 and a couple three loaded mags. You never know, could be a horde of zombies or tweakers (same thing) around the next corner. More is more, simple math. Might be important, probably not, but might be. It is definitely more classy to use a SA. On that note, did Patton ever actually fight?

[Combat Diver]

Yes, Gen Patton fought during the Mexican Expedition in 1916 against Poncho Villa and got into a pistol fight and later in France during WWI. He was too senior during WWII to partake in ground ops but was known to be in the front lines.

"Lieutenant George S. Patton raided a small community and killed Julio Cárdenas, an important leader in the Villista military organization, and two other men. Patton personally killed Cardenas, and is reported to have carved notches into his revolvers".....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa_Expedition

CD

[W.R.Buchanan]

I personally would not feel deprived if all I had was either of my .44 Bisley's and a few rounds, to defend myself or family. I would rather have either of them than my Makarov. Something really final about those 250gr SWC's at any speed. All I've got to do is make the shot.

Remember "Any gun will do, if you will do."

Practice more, shoot more. You may need the edge someday.

Pattons SAA Colt in fact has two notches in the left grip just behind the trigger guard. Hehe was authorized to carry it by Black Jack Pershing even though it was not Govt. issue.

I just saw it on American Rifleman TV last week. Good story.

Randy

[Archer]

When I drop the hammer on my 45 SA , it goes off everytime. That is more then I can say for some of the simi autos I've had. So, I don't feel bad at all carrying it. It's the first shot that counts.

[shotstring]

The caliber is better than the venerable 45 acp, and by thumbing back the hammer with your off hand, the guns shoot remarkably fast and even a new shooter can learn the off hand technique quickly. Reliability is excellent - in the top 10 percent of handguns without a malfunction.

But reloading under stress is out of the question. Here is where the SA meets its Waterloo. Any shootout you are involved in with one had better not last more than 5 or 6 rounds or you are in serious trouble. For that reason alone, it can't be considered a serious contender for a serious engagement of unknown duration.

I would love to carry a lightweight Colt SAA in 45 long colt with 4 1/2 inch bbl for self defense if it was as a 2nd gun that I wouldn't have to worry about reloading. Just drop it when empty and take out a semi-auto to finish up.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Unless you need to shoot more than six people in a hurry, it's a matter of preference.

You will carry a revolver for self-defense because an AR-15 or A-5 Browning 12 gauge with a FL mag tube is much harder to conceal. They are, both, in the Dodge Cummins, within easy reach, however.


Rich

[Char-Gar]

The choice of a defense handgun gets more critical as you exposure to danger increases. We are living through some dangerous times down here on the Texas/Mexico border and we have begun to take the choice more seriously.

Gone are the days where you will be facing a punk kid with a knife looking to steal a few bucks for a fix. We are looking at groups of people doing home invasion robberies in the dark of night. You will hear a crash and have a gang of individual in your home.

In these circumstances the number of rounds you have available might well mean the difference between living and dying. Such events will be fast furious and over in a short time.

Last week we had a homeowner with a hangun kill three gang banger home invaders, just a few miles from where I live. Each dead thug was armed with a handgun and had multiple bullet wounds in his body. There is no handgun on earth that can be counted on to stop an adversary in their tracks with one shot unless the central nervous system is shut down.

I have retired my beloved 1911s (45 ACP) in favor of the Glock 17. The Glock have the soul and character of a chalking gun, but it is the best tool for the task. It is the ugly junk yard dog of defense pistols. That is why it is the most popular police/military handgun in the world. It just gets the job done.

I have a 17 round magazine in the pistol loaded with +P Golden Sabers and a loaded 32 rnd. mag. close at hand. The pistol also have night sights.

I detest Glock handguns, but it is what I want close by these days and times. I like rifles and shotguns, but the pistol is more likely to be in hand when the brown noxious stuff hits the fan. That is just the cruel truth and these things happen when least expected and without time to get something more effective. These days I am never more than a step away from the Glock.

I have some really nice classy SA and DA sixguns and some nice autopistols but when things turn serious I want the Glock. We would all like to think we are steely eyed gun fighters who can cock back the hammer, take careful aim and put the one round exactly where it needs to go to carry the day. But that is more romance, chest pounding and wishful thinking than reality.

[David LaPell]

It worked well for George S. Patton when he was part of the hunt for Panch Villa, here are the details...

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/Bandit.htm

[Char-Gar]

Patton also had a detachment of U.S. Army soldiers backing him up.

[Matthew 25]

Yes, Patton was with a corporal and six privates.
I agree you need to evaluate your potential risk, as Chargar describes with urban home invasions. It's hard to argue with lots of bullets. I would say, though, I'm not convinced that there is no handgun that can provide reliable one-shot stops. I know this argument has been beat to death, but a 44 mag with a 240 xtp is incredible. What it does to gallon jugs or gallon cans of fruit is insane. It is so far above a 357 in destructive ability it isn't even funny. There is absolutely no comparison between a 44m and 45/40/357 or 9mm. I know bad guys aren't the same as gallon jugs, but you can sure see the difference in the way different loads affect them. That being said, if I lived in Houston I don't think I'd carry a single action revolver. But in my mountain town of 5,000 it's just right.
To each his own.
Chargar, I won't argue with your choice of a Glock, it's an incredible weapon. But in an urban home invasion scenario would you prefer the Glock over a high capacity 870?

[W.R.Buchanan]

One point Chargar didn't make outright but said in an indirect way is you being able to make the shot.

They tell us at Frontsight when the adrenline flows your ability goes to 50% of your normal shooting skills. So if you are a 90% shooter then you go to 45%,,, not too bad? If you are normally a 50% shooter then you suck!, and need to be finding a way to get the hell out of there. If you can't retreat, then it comes down to your current favor with the almighty or more properly your ability to "Make it Go Right"

You can get alot of mileage out of "make it go right". but don't ever consider it to be you're goto strategy. It is your last resort when you are cornered and you put your head down and charge! This tactic definetly requires divine intervention to be successful. But the one thing you have to drive into your head is you NEVER QUIT! IF you start to get tired,,, you fight harder!!! it is as simple as that,,,, he who quits first,,, dies!

The alternative is to shoot frequently, keep your skills sharp, and if possible get drilled in your handgun skills and gun handling monthly. This way you have reinforced motor skills which are more about muscle memory than trying to think your way thru the fight. You can think during the fight, but your gun handling needs to be rote.

Having been in tactical scenerios in a course, which is nothing like the real thing, and having failed so miserably it defys description, I can assure you, thinking you can think your way thru a gun fight is a loser !!! You only have to make sure you don't hit the good guys and that's where the thinking part ends. Everything else is sight alignment and trigger control, and those are the first things that go away if you don't practice frequently.

The whole idea of Cast Boolits is to make it so you can afford to shoot more and stay sharp.

Randy

[Char-Gar]

Mathew 25... Yes, I would take a good shotgun anytime and I have two stashed around the house. But, I would have to take a few or more steps to get one. The Glock is always within arms reach. The sole advantage of a handgun vis-a-vi a shotgun is it's portability and availability in an instant.

The gun in your hand is superior to the one in the next room every time.

[David LaPell]

Yes Patton had a detachment of soldiers with him, but it is really saying something when two of the three armed riders on horseback were killed with bullets from his gun, not those of the other men he was with.
There were a few stories of old time lawmen carrying SA revolvers well into the 20th century despite the double action revolvers and even semi's like the 1911 showing up. Caliber had alot to do with that. Look at how many times the Colt SAA was called back into service. When the US was in the Phillipines fighting the Moros the Colt .38 revolvers proved to be a total failure they called the SAA Colt's back into service once again.
Back when I first got my permit and I was working overnight jobs in a really rural neighborhood, my fist handgun that I owned and could afford was a Ruger OM Blackhawk in .357 Magnum. I learned how to shoot that gun and I knew if need be I wasn't worried about it failing. I have carried a AWA Longhorn in .45 Colt and never had any worries about that gun doing the job. While most of my guns that I carry are all DA revolvers these days, I do have a .45 Vaquero and have no doubt if push came to shove, it would do the job. I know my 1860 Army while a percussion revolver when loaded would do its job. I can shoot all of those guns very well and I know that I can hit my target.
Remember that what kind of gun you choose is secondary to being able to hit anything with it. I know guys who have Glocks but can't hit a cow in the teat with a tin cup. These guys go to the range, bang away for all its worth with the high cap mags and barely hit anything. This is typical these days. As the saying goes, a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44.

[Char-Gar]

The last time I saw a single action in the holster of a Texas lawman was 1963. It was in White's Cafe in Alpine, Texas. The LEO was a Texas Game Warden. I remember because it was remarkable even for 1963.

Today, at least 95% of Texas lawmen carry Glocks or Sigs. Serious folks carry serious weapons. Folks who are not serious can carry whatever fits their fantasy life and romantic mood.

Tis true you have to hit what you shoot at whatever the weapon. It is not true that folks who have Glocks are ipso facto folks who bang away without hitting anything. What is also true, is there are folks at ranges who can't hit a bull in the a$$ with a base fiddle, no matter which weapon in in their hands.

It is popular these days, on these gun boards to dis the plastic pistols. But that bit of elitism can cost a fellow his life. Survival is serious business and one would be well to choose his weapon accordingly.

[John Van Gelder]

If the single action is all you have it will work. No matter what you have you need to do your part. If we are dealing in what "ifs", then probably a FNP90 with a 50 round magazine would work well.

I personally know of an instance where the guy with the UZI came in second place to the fellow with the 2.5" model 19...

[bhn22]

However, Patton referred to his S&W .357 (Registered) magnum as his "killing gun". The incident with the 45 Colt was almost 30 years prior to WWII By then, his single action was pretty much a nostalgic toy, a badge of office. He also often carried a Colt .380, which got almost no attention. I know of no professional, who routinely goes in harms way (like the southern border) armed with a thumb buster. Glocks, SIGs, and Berettas seem to be the uniform of the day, along with plenty of magazines. To be honest, if I expected trouble, I'd probably carry a rifle anyway. Better yet, I wouldn't go there to begin with under most circumstances. Even a blazing 1 minute reload could get a guy killed. I do understand that I'm the only guy here who can't guarantee a hit with every shot fired. :)

[ColColt]

I love the grand ol' 45Colt SA as much as anyone but when it comes to someone(or more)breaking down my back door, I have a S&W 4506 under my pillow, A Glock 30SF in a hidden book in the living room stoked with 230 gr Ranger T ammo and a Ruger SP101 under the desk of my computer downstairs out of sight with 135 gr GDHP ammo. Trouble seldom comes alone these days.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Very interesting! The question was about "self-defense".... Now, when I hear self-defense, I am thinking defending against bad guys AND animals. So if both those things are potentially on your plate, I would say a SA would be much better than any semi-auto...

Jim

[Dale53]

Folks, it is awful easy to loose sight of what's REALLY important - you MUST be able to hit WHERE you need to with adequate power QUICKLY. The tool is secondary - the emphasis MUST be on HITTING!

Hitting under pressure absolutely requires REGULAR trigger time!

Dale53

[dnotarianni]

I subscribe to the school of thought that bullet placement is the most important issue. I normally carry a SP101 and feel comfortable with whats in the cyl for just about any situation. I am not a cop who is going in harms way and after the first round goes off with a 4 foot ball of flame and the noise of a 357 I pretty much expect that I won't need the other 4 rounds, hit or miss.

Dave

[wildcatter]

I think the caliber is fantastic, one shot and you should have control of the situation! If there is more than one perpatrator you should have the rest of their attention. My only down side would be to comfort of concealable carry. and conceal ability, But there is no dought in my mind that the revolver and caliber are most capable!

[Thumbcocker]

Google "Captain Jonathan Davis" and read about his experience. Don't know if he had heard of midnset or not.

[Hogpost]

For home defense against breakins, as opposed to a street firefight, I can tell you the SA is certainly adequate. In the late 60's, having returned from Vietnam, I was staying with my Dad on the old place 'way out in the sticks, never expecting any kind of threat. He'd taught me to shoot with his old Colt Frontier 44-40, blackpowder! (He loaded his own with an ancient Winchester nutcracker tool).
We heard noises in the middle of the night, and got up to investigate, Dad with that antique Colt in his hand. Encountered three punks who'd gotten into the front room and were poking into stuff. Dad yelled something at them, and one started to point a .22 revolver at us; Dad didn't hesitate. That old 44-40 went off with a huge roar and a blast of orange flame, and nailed the punk mid-chest., knocking him a few feet backwards and down. The other two froze; then one started hollering "don't shoot me." I think the huge boom and flash, along with their buddy being literally "blown away," took out any remaining aggressive thoughts they may have had. We had no further trouble with them, nor did the sheriff when he arrived.

40+ years later, that old Frontier, still loaded with black powder, is on my bedstand; and woe betide the next punk(s) to break in.

[Dale53]

Hogpost;
I LOVE IT!

Serious justice, RIGHT NOW!

Dale53

[TheDoctor]

Keep it loaded and on hand always around the house. My boys can both handle it and shoot it well. They both started shooting it when they were 4, and are comfortable with it. I carry an XDm 40 for two legged antagonists, but would not hesitate to carry the SA. Pistols are NOT my first home defense choice. I keep a benelli M4 stocked with 9 slugs as my number one. But seeing how a good percentage of home invasions are not discovered until someone is already in your bedroom, my .40 is CLOSE, because I might not have time to grab the shotgun. My oldest can handle the shotgun, even with slugs, but is not comfortable with the .40, same with the wife. Everyone can handle the vaquero. If I am concerned with punks, and something that has teeth and claws, the SA, is what I will carry.

[Changeling]

Hogpost;
I LOVE IT!

Serious justice, RIGHT NOW!

Dale53

I was parked in an area known as Senica on the Virginia side of the Potomac river in a 1961 Corvette.
A guy approached my side of the car and wanted my cigarettes, I told him NO and to get the hell out of my way or I was going to shoot him! He then went around to the passenger side where my girl friend was and tried to pull open the door with another guy!

I got my pistol (22 Bearcat, Federal HP's) and steeped out of the Vette, this made the original jerk to come back around to my side of the car and start telling me I wasn't going to shoot anyone! Big mistake, I shot him in the leg and he started jumping up and down like a chicken with the head cut off ( Honest)!:D

I turned to shoot the other one and he was "GONE", when I turned back the original assailant was "GONE" as well! This all happened very fast!!!!:wink:

One shot, one MASS EXODUS, stage left!
Theres more to the story but I rather not tell it!

Bottom line, be prepared, this could have been a complete catastrophe!!


Not my only engagement, but I sure as HELL hope it's my last!

[Leadforbrains]

Yes I have kept a SA .44 special by my bed, along with a Sig .40 on the dresser and an AR15 with an ACOG and 30 round magazine in the corner.
I do like a Single action handgun because it adds class to any situation.

[subsonic]

I haven't read all nine pages of this, but I did want to add that if you have a .45ACP cylinder in your Ruger, a cheap junk 1911 mag makes a great speed reloader. Just thumb them in as you turn the cylinder. Polish the chambers up with a ball hone from brownells or similar, and the empties will fall out until the gun gets filthed up.

[nonferrous]

I don't go too many places without a 642 in my pocket loaded with +P Critcal Defense rounds.
I have a couple of Flat Top Blackhawks in the safe that I love, but when I handle them, I don't see myself taking one with me wherever I go, maybe with the right leather rig.
The double action, always ready, point and shoot, snag free, speedloader capable advantages of the pocket gun aside, I got to say that just showing the sixgun would probably end most disputes.

[white eagle]

45 colt bedside
12 ga in bed room closet
wifey has a 22 revolver in dainty items drawer
knife clipped in pants and serious dislike for intruders

[ColColt]

For quite a few years in the early to late 70's I kept a Ruger 45 Colt right by the bed-usually under the mattress. I didn't feel under gunned or less protected as I trusted the centennial round to stop whatever I may encounter in the house and it no doubt would have.

Things have changed over the years and I doubt you'll encounter a single attacker in the home but rather by two's and three's. You'd best be a cool, straight shooter with a SA as there's no time for reloading. The 45 Colt was my first love but I have to be a realist and know I'm no Thell Reed or Bob Mundane with a SA and have since decided on the 45 ACP under my pillow. I gained a great sense of solace from that choice.

[Hogpost]

I think like most of us that, if the SA is what you're comfortable with, and can actually hit with it, then it's the best bedside arm for you. Switching to, and learning, something else entirely is not an easy or quick project. In agreement with ColColt, you can today expect multiple B&E creeps; but when the first one gets loudly and messily and prompty blown away, it's not likely #2 or #3 will want to pick up the gunfight from there. Very very few B&E animals have the first clue about guns and how to use them, and just as few have the balls to do do anything other than freeze or run when they've just been sprayed with blood spatter from their buddy, and their ears are ringing from the muzzle blast.

[Matthew 25]

Hogpost, I agree. I think the splatter-effect is under rated.

[Bret4207]

Ya know, it's funny, but for all the bottom feeder training I had, I still feel more comfortable with a good old reliable Smith DA. I'm sure others feel the same way about their SA's, be they Colt, Ruger, Cimmaron, what ever. Nothing in the world wrong with that!

[Char-Gar]

I have a couple of boxes of Cor-Bon 45 Colt ammo. It is loaded with the famous 200 grain Speer Flying Ashtray at 1,100 fps. I have been sticking my new Ruger Flatop loaded with that stuff under the pillow right next to the Glock.

[Shooter6br]

"A 32 gun in his pocket for fun and a razor in his shoe" Mod 10 Smith in night stand, 25 Raven is fake book in the living room and a Kimber 45ACP in family room.

[Hogpost]

Chargar, I don't think I could sleep with that much iron under my pillow:)
But for this thread, which one would you grab first, the SA or the auto?

[singleshot]

I have yet to see anyone draw and accurately fire any gun faster than a single-action. The first clean hit will win the fight, you can bet your life on it.

Obviously, this does not apply to military situations where more troops are willing and ready to put their life on the line.

[Doug Bowser]

I can handle a SA with either hand or both hands. I like the Colt Style SA revolvers because there is a slight step in the cylinder when loading.

I would not feel under gunned with a SA. I prefer a SIG/SAUER P225 with 147 gr HP bullets at 1000 fps. It is short and flat and easy to carry. Also, reloads are infinitely faster.

Doug Bowser

[Multigunner]

I have yet to see anyone draw and accurately fire any gun faster than a single-action. The first clean hit will win the fight, you can bet your life on it.

Obviously, this does not apply to military situations where more troops are willing and ready to put their life on the line.

The speed and natural pointing with the coordination of thumb and forefinger has made the single action revolver the handgun the greatest number of people can handle with ease and precision.
Only a relative few can handle the double action and autopistols with the same level of natural fluid movement.

An Apache warrior could pick up a Colt from the battlefield and in minutes have figured out and mastered its use.

[RJM52]

I voted "yes" as to me it is a heck of a lot better than the Mouse/Rat size guns people seem willing to entrust their lives to these days. Funny thing is everyone I have know who has gotten into a confrontation, shots fired or not, seems to have traded "comfort" for something a little more "comforting"...

As to reloading during a gunfight, I spent 30 years in LE and never saw a civillian reload. I made a 20 year study of it and can not find any. If anyone has a documented case of a civillian reload in which shots were fired "after" the reload I would really appreciate knowing about it.

This is my idea of a SA CC gun...FA 97 .41 Magnum with a 4.25" barel and round butt...in a Simply Rugged Holster...light, fast, powerful and accurate...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/FreedomArms061910008.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/FreedomArms061910009.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Single%20Action/FreedomArms061910003.jpg


Bob

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have sleepwalked a few times over the years and therefore my nearby bedroom gun is a few steps away from the bed. I just cannot trust myself to be fully awake when the weapon is just a short arms reach away from me.

Ergo, my bedroom SD gun is a EAA Witness Match Elite 9 MM with one in the chamber and 17 more in the magazine and a spare magazine close by. A few steps away from the bed is a 12 Pump Shotgun loaded with no 4 buckshot and a full bandolier of 25 rounds of various loadings in 12 gauge.

In the bathroom I keep my Ruger Bisley BH 5 1/2 tubed .44 Special in the cabinet above the porcelain throne. It is handy but out of sight.

In the living room I keep a Baker side by side 12 Gauge 18 1/2 inch barrelled shotgun loaded with no 4 buckshot. This one fits really nicely under my TV table in front of my recliner and would be deployable in about one second. Also nearby is another bandolier of 12 ammo.

Next to the computer in a clip holster on the underside of a drawer resides a 9 MM Browning Hi Power loaded with 147 GR Double Tap HP loads. The magazine holds 16 rounds and there are two full ones within arms reach.

In the kitchen I keep a Taurus 1911 in 45 ACP handy in a drawer along with a handfull of magazines.

All the other weapons are kept in a locked safe in my ex's garage.

I try to give myself all the advantages I can get but I would not feel undergunned if I had to use my Ruger 45 Colt BH, Ruger OMBH in 357 Magnum nor even the Ruger .30 Carbine NMBH revolver.

The best defensive handgun you can have is the one you are carrying. I carry a Charter Arms .44 Special Bulldog Pug with a 2.5 inch bbl and no hammer spur. It is light, small, powerful and looks as mean as a viper. It is very concealable and I hardly know I am carrying it. I usually carry it open on my belt along with a 12 round loop carrier that matches the holster leather. I always have it. When I get up and get dressed the gun goes on my hip even if I never leave the trailer all day long. It is a habit. I know I can put 5 rounds of 185 GR Hornady Critical Defense ammo into anything within 15 yds really fast. If 5 rounds of this calibre and bullet combination do not stop something then it is time to seek distance and to reaload for some head shots.

I know I can hit any target with it at 15 yds. If I have to shoot at a longer distance then I can cock the hammer with the left hand and shoot single action for more accuracy. My 25 yd groups are about 3 to 4 inches. 50 yds I can get them all on a normal sized piece of notebook paper. At 100 yds I can hit a man sized target from the groin to the throat with all five every time but slowly. I have no business shooting at anything at 100 yds with this gun but just in case I practice for it. I know that I have to hold about 24" high at 100 yds but it is better than throwing rocks.

[Bret4207]

I have yet to see anyone draw and accurately fire any gun faster than a single-action. The first clean hit will win the fight, you can bet your life on it.

Obviously, this does not apply to military situations where more troops are willing and ready to put their life on the line.

Ever see a good man with a a DA Smith? Say Miculek or Bill Jordan? I agree a good first hit is important, but I don't see an advantage to the SA for that.

[Multigunner]

I have sleepwalked a few times over the years and therefore my nearby bedroom gun is a few steps away from the bed. I just cannot trust myself to be fully awake when the weapon is just a short arms reach away from me.

Ergo, my bedroom SD gun is a EAA Witness Match Elite 9 MM with one in the chamber and 17 more in the magazine and a spare magazine close by. A few steps away from the bed is a 12 Pump Shotgun loaded with no 4 buckshot and a full bandolier of 25 rounds of various loadings in 12 gauge.

In the bathroom I keep my Ruger Bisley BH 5 1/2 tubed .44 Special in the cabinet above the porcelain throne. It is handy but out of sight.

In the living room I keep a Baker side by side 12 Gauge 18 1/2 inch barrelled shotgun loaded with no 4 buckshot. This one fits really nicely under my TV table in front of my recliner and would be deployable in about one second. Also nearby is another bandolier of 12 ammo.

Next to the computer in a clip holster on the underside of a drawer resides a 9 MM Browning Hi Power loaded with 147 GR Double Tap HP loads. The magazine holds 16 rounds and there are two full ones within arms reach.

In the kitchen I keep a Taurus 1911 in 45 ACP handy in a drawer along with a handfull of magazines.




Gee, you wouldn;t happened to be in the witness protection program would you???
:kidding:

[Ken TN]

I carry my 45 Colt Birdshead Vaquero and use it in CASS competition. I am very familar with it and feel that if needed it would do what is needed on 2 or 4 legged perps. I practice with full power loads and carry a shot shell as my #1 shot. I use it hiking and do not like snakes...

I have seen many people try to qualify for CCW permits with an auto and they do not know how to use it or clear a jam. These people would be better off with a simple firearm, DA or SA revolver. Too many people have bought the hype of "more is better" in ammo count with the autos. A 1911 is dangerous in untrained hands and a accidental discharge is not something I want to ever hear again, a long story not needed here.

[singleshot]

Ever see a good man with a a DA Smith? Say Miculek or Bill Jordan? I agree a good first hit is important, but I don't see an advantage to the SA for that.

Yes, sir, I have seen Miculek...a thing of beauty to be sure. Certainly wouldn't want to be in a gunfight with him or Bob Munden...to say the least!

I could be wrong, but when Miculek set his world record 12 shots with a reload on target in under 3 seconds, his first shot came at .4 sec or so. SA guys, like Munden, fire the first shot in about half that time... 0.2 sec or so. From what I've seen, I'd conclude that a SA is about twice as fast, given the best that shoot each.

Does any of this really matter? Not sure...YMMV

I'm not Munden or Miculek, so I'm better off using what I can use fastest given the amount of training I'm willing to invest.

[Bret4207]

Sorry, but I fail to see how anyone could be slower with a DA than a SA unless they were trying. The additional action of having to cock the SA should slow it a bit, but I doubt in real world terms it's enough to really notice.

[singleshot]

Sorry, but I fail to see how anyone could be slower with a DA than a SA unless they were trying. The additional action of having to cock the SA should slow it a bit, but I doubt in real world terms it's enough to really notice.

You make a VERY convincing argument, Bret!

However, all the data I've seen (in addition to my own experience) is overwhelming.

It would only matter in a gunfight where fractions of a second counted. Unlikely? Absolutely!

But as I stated in my previous post, YMMV. :bigsmyl2:

I may only offer this...learn the quick-draw with a single-action, then judge. I personally cannot draw and fire any of my double actions as fast as my single actions...and that by a WIDE margin. Did I mention YMMV? [smilie=s:

[mroliver77]

Miculek has emptied a six shot on target in .57 sec. Ed Mcgivern's record of .45 sec still stands from 1932. With the resolution of 1932 timing equipment it is said it could have been from .40 to .45 second. That's a little better than .40 till the first shot!

I had a friend that could shoot a target very well with his bow. He made me look sad. We went on a walkabout one day in the woods taking shots at targets of opportunity. He did not fare near so well! ;)
J

[Dale53]

Really, if a person is competent with either type, self defense can be handled by either. If a person is NOT competent, then all bets are off.

The only place where the single action falls behind is reloading.

This from a guy who chooses a double action revolver for daily carry.

FWIW
Dale53

[Hogpost]

I think there may actually be two reasons why a single action could be a few microseconds faster than a double action in a set-piece from-the-holster draw and 2-handed fire.

1. The SA is being cocked during the draw, and is fully cocked by the time the sights are on target. I rather doubt the DA shooter is pulling his trigger through while bringing his weapon up to firing position: that's a good way to shoot your own knee off.

2. Once the sights are on target, the SA requires only a slight pull on the trigger to fire. The DA's longer, clumsier trigger pull must be smooth and steady to prevent losing the sight picture, and will therefore be microseconds slower.

Of course, this does not apply if the DA shooter fires that first round single-action, having cocked the hammer during the draw. I do not know if Miculek does this.

But then, a "go fer yer gun" High-Noon drawdown is an unlikely scenario today, especially for home defense. Same with the need to quickly reload: if you can't hit an armed intruder with the first shot or two, you might as well just hand over your wallet.

[Bret4207]

I don't know how anyone else does it but I've got the trigger partly taken up as the gun comes to target. You're squeezing it off as the gun lines up. That "SA being cocked during the draw" part sounds like it has as much chance of slowing things as taking the trigger up in DA.

Once the guns are on target and the sights are aligned the SA requires the shooter loosing his sight picture while he cocks, taking several "micro seconds longer. The DA man is taking up the slack as the sights come down out of recoil and squeezing it off from the "stacked" position.

I'm sure the difference is small, but as a trained DA shooter and a casual SA shooter I would never, ever bet on the SA man beating an equally skilled DA man, especially after the first shot. I'm not talking games, I'm talking real life. All these games I see on TV are just that, games. I wouldn't throw a good SA away, but it darn sure wouldn't be my first choice.

[LUBEDUDE]

I have run into a number of guys that see my 45colt Ruger NM Vaquero as a poor choice of carry gun.


It's going to continue - just like Dillon guys looking down their noses at Lee equip. and PW guys looking down at Mec equip. and so on....

Not that they all do it, but many do.

It seems to be the gun culture or the human way.

[singleshot]

Here's a good instruction video on how to properly draw a single action. It comes in 5 installments if memory serves me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egvhz8EzWnA&feature=related

[scattershot]

As an old timer on another source said, ... If you need more than six, then maybe it's just your time to go...

[Matthew 25]

^^^^^That's some funny stuff right there, I don't care who you are!

Arguing fractions of seconds is silly for me. I used to draw and fire a Vaquero from a low holster usually under 0.6 sec (not very competitive and sure as heck not safe)...it takes me a full 3 seconds to draw and fire my CC SP101 from a hip holster wearing a jacket. For speed I'd be better off leading with a left jab.

[Bret4207]

Stick that Vaquero in a hip holster and wear a jacket and see how fast you are, or get a low holster for the SP101 and spend as mcuh time learning to draw as you did with the SA. Apples and oranges guys.

[Hogpost]

Agreed, arguing microseconds makes little sense, and the difference is more likely to be between users than between handgun types. I think I got a little sidetracked like some others of us, but these conversations are always interesting and fun.

For the purposes of the original question, most people seem to agree that the SA is adequate for self-defense, especially if it's the type you are most comfortable with. Hard to argue with "use what you can hit with."

In a home defense situation, fast draw from a holster is irrelevant; you will most likely have the gun in your hand when you encounter the intruder. And the need to reload quickly in home-defense is unlikely.

But I have zip experience with concealed carry, a whole different world, and will keep my mouth shut on that area.

[Matthew 25]

Bret, that's my point. Sorry, it did sound like a SA/DA comparison, but that was unintentional.
What I meant to get across was I can move my hands pretty quickly, but it doesn't matter if I'm drawing a Vaquero or a Howitzer from a concealed holster, 0.05 seconds isn't going to make much difference, it'll be a dang slow draw.

I was dumbfounded when I put myself on the clock. I thought an ankle holster was ridiculous because of how long the draw would take. So I put myself on the clock...just over 3 seconds.
Then I timed my normal carry SP101 with a jacket on...just over 3 seconds.
Dang it! proved myself wrong again.

[Bret4207]

No argument then. Personally I think when the real, actual, stinky poop hits the fan most people, even the "trained" ones, the game players, the guys that run a round of "Condition Yellow" or higher every waking moment, are going to do exactly what 99% of people do- they'll take a second or two to process the fact this is ACTUALLY happening. How long it takes to recover is going to vary and that will be a far bigger factor than SA, DA, auto with a dozen mags or fancy lasers and all the soopercooltacticalextreme gear. Been there. Even when you KNOW ahead of time you might be running into trouble it still takes a sec to process things.

[Catshooter]

And that "second" to process things scares the dickens outa me. I've been in that moment a couple of times. When I was lucky it was a false alarm. But not always . . . and that's a horrible place to be.

A friend of mine and I have drilled/practiced to try to cut down or eliminate this point. Hope it worked!:)


Cat

[Maine1]

While i carry a G-20 daily now, but years ago I started carrying a SA Ruger 44.

Given proper training, practice and mindset, i'd say that a SA revolver is just as valid as any other choice, and better than some.

Also, i don't think anyone has mentioned the caliber choices available with a SA, beats a 380 all to hell. A 44 mag loaded with good 44 specials will be quite controlable, and put more power on target than a 45 with the right load.

A friend and i were batching together at my camp for a while, and most nights we spent shooting out back with 44 sa's, busting rocks, reloading contests, sprinting then firing and reloading, ect. We would shoot 2-300 rounds a night, and reload it during the day with the old keith load of a 240 gr slug at 1100-1200 fps. Got pretty good at it. He also had a smith DA that would kick the hell out of you with the same load that the SA 's were a pleasure to shoot.
I do think capacity and quick reloads are a great thing, but the effect of a SA on the average shooter is to make them focus.

I'd not feel unarmed with a nice Stainless ruger SA in 44, with a selection of ammo and a good holster. I might miss the glock for reloads..but a good 44 is hard to beat. In fact, I am looking for one for a stash gun.
I aslo find it a little funny that people think an SA is hard to conceal, but whatever, the way people carry and how much comfort varied greatly.

Choose a weapon, carry it daily, practice and train hard, exercise your mental muscles, and you will likely be OK, regardless of the weapon you choose. And if not, who says the weapon itself was the "wrong' one, many things go south in a fight.

[a.squibload]

Just ran across this:

"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."

Pancho Villa, last words (1877 - 1923)



I'm more accurate but slower with SA.
Also need small and light for CC.
Would feel better if my first shot was a 250K SWC at 1000fps,
but a 180 JHP .40 at 1000 would be close enough.
Never tried concealing my 7½" SBH, might give it a try.
Hope I wouldn't "wedgie" myself snagging drawers with the tall front sight!

[StrawHat]

...Hope I wouldn't "wedgie" myself snagging drawers with the tall front sight!...

Thanks for the laugh!

[KCSO]

Just ask who volunteers to be shot with it! Any gun you have is beter than the one you wished you had.

[MattOrgan]

Of course the first rule of gun fighting is to bring a gun. Or have it with you all of the time, whatever you like or have available to carry. Handguns are carried when we don't believe there is going to be trouble. We can conduct our daily business relatively unencumbered while carrying one. When we expect trouble or see it far enough in the future we can arm ourselves with a rifle or shotgun or leave. Being alert and avoidance are the best defenses. Most of the people I've seen shot have been shot with .22s, .25s and every gauge of shotgun but 10 gauge. A surprising number of the shotguns were single shots and they ended fights with that one shot.

So this is an interesting question, but in the end, carry what you like or have. I don't think anyone's mind has been changed.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Last night on Wed Nite at the Range on the Outdoor Channel,, Larry Potterfield did his "test" to see how a Ruger Blackhawk in .45LC "stacked up" against other guns as a conceiled carry gun

It got a score of around 650 which is not too bad. Many Semiautos in smaller calibers don't even fair this well

I have to say his test criteria leaves something to be desired, mainly due to him only using only one hand in he test. It took him nearly 2 seconds to get off the first shot and he only got off one more shot in 3 Seconds!

I can easily get off two shots onto a pie plate at 5 yds in 1.5 seconds with my Glock from the holster, and easily get 5 more into the plate in 3 more seconds... With 2 hands.

I would think any Cowboy shooter should be able to get pretty close to my speed with a SA using two hands.

I think this is an appropriate point to make for this thread, and shows in a manner, that any gun willl do, if you will do!

Randy.

[white eagle]

after all 1 well placed shot is what you always hear
now all of a sudden humans take more to dispatch than say a deer
I don't think so.........................
in order to defend yourself you need to be quick draw Mcgraw
or be able to do a double tap
lets see those test done while they are wiping sleep out of their eyes
and scratching their azzez

[W.R.Buchanan]

I agree W. E. but,,, I think getting hit anywhere by a 250 gr bullet from a .45 would still take the fight right out of you, and it might even make you hold still so you could be shot again.

Randy

[Bullet Caster]

I've carried my SA .45 Colt clone 4.75" bbl. on occasion for CCW but I'd prefer a 9mm or a .45ACP. The SA fits my concealed carry vest as does most of my handguns. For CCW I now carry my 9mm with extra 10 round mag. My pistol has an 8 round mag with one in the tube plus I carry 5 extra rounds in the vest.

If you're comfortable with carrying a SA for protection, then by all means do it. I've only heard of one fella living after being shot 6 times with a .45 Colt. BC

[suba]

First of all I'd like to wish each and every one of you a safe and happy 2012.

I used to carry a P7 which I liked a lot but sold it to pay some bills. I don't carry every day but when I do it's my FA 454. I load cast and don't ever feel under gunned.

For the record I was a Vietnam Combat Marine who started shooting when I was about six years old. I don't shoot a lot anymore, but I'm comfortable behind a trigger and if needed willing to do what's needed in a defensive situation.

[Alan]

If it is the gun you have - I know, rare on here - then use it for what you need to. By saying that they are no good and you should never do so is saying that you should never use it for anything but the target range.

I ALWAYS have my keltek on on me - anywhere it is legal. But if I'm out hunting or knocking around the farm in La. and am assaulted by 2 or 4 legged varmints, the gun I reach for will be the one on my belt - SA or DA or semi-auto. Depending on what I'm doing, that could be a Ruger .22 Auto, a Single-six in .22 or .32, a Blackhawk, various K-frame, N-frame or X-frame Smiths, a 1911 in 9mm or .45, or my Sig P-6.

Understand - the primary purpose of a sidearm in defensive situations is to fight your way to a rifle.

[Chief RID]

If it is on my hip, as it often is during hunting season, and the need arises, what else would you use it for? I hope not a hammer in camp.

[Dframe]

Would never be MY first choice, but anyone who thnks they can't be fast and accurate needs to attend a cowboy action match sometime.

[makicjf]

I carry a nm blackhawk 45 (acp or colt depending on the day) everywhere I go, ride the horse or drive. I shoot several hundred rounds a week through it. Though not a SASS competitor I can shoot pretty quick and accuratley(faster and more accuratley than I can empty my wifes da .38 shooting da). The SA points like a finger of god from the leather, and can deliver serious power in a heart beat. reloading, though not as fast as an auto or a speedloader in a DA, can be accomplished with decent speed with practice. And practicing "tactical" reloads is something I do every day. I live in a rural area and work at a University,thus I'm more likely to have to pop a feral hog or kill a coyote than confront a street thug. However, if I lived in a higher risk area, I would carry 2 BH's (plus the 12 rounds on my belt and the 4-6 in the 50 caliber black powder tubes as "speed loads"). I am comfortable and confident this weapon will serve me well if I practice and use my head. Using one gun all the time seems better than carrying an auto or snubby da in town and another on the farm. I also think a big bore revolver, with the cowboy look, may inspre a bit of shock and awe and perhaps provide a bit more detterence when pulled than a snubby
JMO,
jason

[Texantothecore]

I do not like Double Action one bit:

1. The trigger pull is too long and when I have shot them my reaction during the trigger pull is "Will this gun never fire?".
2. I shoot mostly rifle and the single action more closely matches the trigger pull on my rifles than does a Double Action. With a single action I can accurately guess when the gun will fire, not so with a Double Action. It drives me fruit.
3. A friend of mine shoots two shots, one each into two different targets, in 1.4 seconds. Good enough for me. He uses a single action derringer.
4. Although we tend to think of cowboy shooting as just quirky gun play, there is a lot to learn as that shooting is mainly self defense skills.
5. I have traded in all my DA and DA/SA pistols for SA and I am extremely happy with the results.

My best analysis for which to carry is to carry the pistol you love best, the one you shoot most. That pistol matches your hand and your shooting style.


As far as speed goes, Bill Hickok said it best: "Speed is good, accuracy is final".

[El Bango]

You bet! There's nothing like a heavy cast SWC to take the starch out of badguy.A single action will do just that,and one well aimed shot is all that,s needed .I used to shoot PPC matches with Ruger Blackhawks in .357 and .45 Colt and never won the matches because of the slowness in reloading but my aggregate scores for the course was always better than the DA or Semi-Auto shooters.I knew I couldn't put as much lead downrange but what I did send counted.:wink:

[StrawHat]

While not my first choice, if the clock was getting on to High Noon, this could be comforting.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Jager002.jpg

But for everyday, I still like my 4" N frame in 45 ACP.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I have been carrying a Colt Sheriff's Model chambered in .44-40 WCF. I will have to produce a CCW video soon and publish it on youtube.com.

[ColColt]

I had(past tense) a Ruger three screw 4 5/8" 45 Colt that resided near my night stand for many rears. It was loaded with 9 gr of Unique and the Keith 255 gr SWC and I didn't feel under gunned. However, it's not 1975 anymore and criminals don't usually come brave enough to be alone so, it got replaced with the S&W 4506 and 230 gr JHP's a few years ago.

[shotstring]

I can't believe this thread is up to page 12 with people still debating if single action revolvers are 1) adequate for self defense 2) the best or as good as anything else for self defense.

This isn't rocket science and people have repeatedly pointed out the obvious, but still people persist in believing that a single action can be as good as other alternative firearms for self defense.

It is not. Plain and simple. No logical argument to the contrary is possible, and I love single actions to bits - one of my favorite types of firearms.

It is a given that a single action is far slower to reload than both double action revolver and automatic alike. That alone is enough to disqualify the single action as "the best possible" for defense. We all know this. Some single actions will hold 8, but most are reduced to holding 6 bullets, while some can only safely or by design hold 5.
As the norm is 6, using that, if you are attacked by 7 assailants, you die. Simple math, as barring a miracle, it will take at least one shot per assailant. If an assailant doesn't go down with the first shot, you would require 2 shots per "stubborn assailant". That means if there are 4 assailants, you die. Once again, simple math.

While most lethal situations involve only 1 or 2 individuals, many others don't. A firearm that limits your success to demanding 3 or less attackers is a poor choice.

As for the speed issue, Hogpost pointed out the reason why single action revolvers can be as quick as other handguns in getting off the first shot, by cocking the hammer as the gun is drawn. But to do so requires great skill and hours and hours of practice, and even then IS AN UNSAFE PRACTICE. That is why single action speed draw competition is limited to blanks or wax bullets. There is no safe way to cock a single action as it is being drawn...period.

On the other hand, I single action auto like a Colt 45, does not require the hammer to be drawn back because carried cocked and locked, it is already back and can be drawn "BOTH QUICKLY AND SAFELY". Most gun fights are settled with the first shot, and as a round is already chambered for the first shot in the Colt auto or countless other auto styles and types, jamming for the first and most important shot is impossible unless it was originally chambered in error to begin with.

To sum up, a single action revolver is adequate for self defense if it is available. So is a ball peen hammer. They are simply not the best tools available. Now can we stop???

[shotstring]

I can't believe this thread is up to page 12 with people still debating if single action revolvers are 1) adequate for self defense 2) the best or as good as anything else for self defense.

This isn't rocket science and people have repeatedly pointed out the obvious, but still people persist in believing that a single action can be as good as other alternative firearms for self defense.

It is not. Plain and simple. No logical argument to the contrary is possible, and I love single actions to bits - one of my favorite types of firearms.

It is a given that a single action is far slower to reload than both double action revolver and automatic alike. That alone is enough to disqualify the single action as "the best possible" for defense. We all know this. Some single actions will hold 8, but most are reduced to holding 6 bullets, while some can only safely or by design hold 5.
As the norm is 6, using that, if you are attacked by 7 assailants, you die. Simple math, as barring a miracle, it will take at least one shot per assailant. If an assailant doesn't go down with the first shot, you would require 2 shots per "stubborn assailant". That means if there are 4 assailants, you die. Once again, simple math.

While most lethal situations involve only 1 or 2 individuals, many others don't. A firearm that limits your success to demanding 3 or less attackers is a poor choice.

As for the speed issue, Hogpost pointed out the reason why single action revolvers can be as quick as other handguns in getting off the first shot, by cocking the hammer as the gun is drawn. But to do so requires great skill and hours and hours of practice, and even then IS AN UNSAFE PRACTICE. That is why single action speed draw competition is limited to blanks or wax bullets. There is no safe way to cock a single action as it is being drawn...period.

On the other hand, I single action auto like a Colt 45, does not require the hammer to be drawn back because carried cocked and locked, it is already back and can be drawn "BOTH QUICKLY AND SAFELY". Most gun fights are settled with the first shot, and as a round is already chambered for the first shot in the Colt auto or countless other auto styles and types, jamming for the first and most important shot is impossible unless it was originally chambered in error to begin with.

To sum up, a single action revolver is adequate for self defense if it is available. So is a ball peen hammer. They are simply not the best tools available. Now can we stop???

[StrawHat]

...As the norm is 6, using that, if you are attacked by 7 assailants, you die. Simple math, as barring a miracle, it will take at least one shot per assailant. If an assailant doesn't go down with the first shot, you would require 2 shots per "stubborn assailant". That means if there are 4 assailants, you die. Once again, simple math...

So if you are carrying, say a self loading pistol, and attacked by 5 or 6, the last assailant will stand there waiting while you fire at the first ones?

[makicjf]

A safe method for quick deployment and discharge of a single action revolver in a high stress situation would be:

1)throw back cover garment and grasp handle with your index finger along the cylinder. Place support hand on stomach, somewhere around the belly button
2) with index finger still along the cylinder, clear the leather and pivot the barrel towards the target. Point at the threat with your gun hand index finger
3) push the revolver up and out at the target. index finger still pointing at the B.G.
4) support hand comes up and meets and grasps the weapon at shooting level. Support hand thumb rests on the hammer. trigger finger still along the cylinder(pointing at the B.G.)
5) if neccasary cock, frontsight, finger on the trigger, squeeze. repeat as neccasary while looking for cover or avenue for disengagement
If I'm attacked by a half of a squad (6-7 men) unless i start from a fortified position, my odds of survival are miniscule, regardless of my choice of weapon(s). At that point I'm fighting to have a decent honor guard in hell.

Jason

[shotstring]

C'mon Strawhat, with someone with enough interest in guns and reloading to belong to this forum, surely you have seen a Steel Challenge Match or something similar? I can assure you those half dozen targets don't sit around for long without being knocked down - seconds is all.

To makicif, you are correct in that it is possible to draw a fire a revolver without putting a hole in one's person. But the point I was making is that average joe citizen does not take the time to even practice shooting let alone drawing skills. Even pros have had accidents after hundreds of entirely safe and correct draws. The timing is not easy to master even with daily practice.

And covering the attack of 6 or 7 men, while a challenge, can certainly be accomplished but will almost always require at least one reload. Example would be where regardless of how many are involved in a home invasion robbery, they still need to get through the limited space of the front or back doors. But all this projection is just silly. The point is, a single action simply has too many drawbacks to be the best tool for the job any longer. That is why you will never see it in law enforcement or military use except for nostalgia purposes.

But I agree with most of you that think the single action is a formidable adversary. It is. It is capable of shooting 6 people very dead very quickly. Who is going to argue with that? I'm just sayin', and we all know, that there are now better tools available.

[Bret4207]

Dang shotstring, I sure do wish I had read your opinion 20 some years back. Why, it's a wonder I'm alive! In fact, maybe I'm dead and don't know it! If only I'd played gun games I'd have a grasp on the bestest way to do things!

No one said a SA was "the best". Not that I recall anyway. What was said was that they can work. They can. Plain and simple. No logical argument to the contrary is possible, to use your words. One hit with a SA is better than 19 misses with a 9mm. The rest of your argument is you attempt to justify your position and you contradict yourself at least once.

I found your post to be arrogant, insulting and full of half truths. What I really find insulting is your assertion that anyone here should stop discussing an issue just because you've put your 2 cents in. Please allow us idiots the freedom to blather on without you.

[Bret4207]

I can't believe this thread is up to page 12 with people still debating if single action revolvers are 1) adequate for self defense 2) the best or as good as anything else for self defense.

This isn't rocket science and people have repeatedly pointed out the obvious, but still people persist in believing that a single action can be as good as other alternative firearms for self defense.

It is not. Plain and simple. No logical argument to the contrary is possible, and I love single actions to bits - one of my favorite types of firearms.

It is a given that a single action is far slower to reload than both double action revolver and automatic alike. That alone is enough to disqualify the single action as "the best possible" for defense. We all know this. Some single actions will hold 8, but most are reduced to holding 6 bullets, while some can only safely or by design hold 5.
As the norm is 6, using that, if you are attacked by 7 assailants, you die. Simple math, as barring a miracle, it will take at least one shot per assailant. If an assailant doesn't go down with the first shot, you would require 2 shots per "stubborn assailant". That means if there are 4 assailants, you die. Once again, simple math.

While most lethal situations involve only 1 or 2 individuals, many others don't. A firearm that limits your success to demanding 3 or less attackers is a poor choice.

As for the speed issue, Hogpost pointed out the reason why single action revolvers can be as quick as other handguns in getting off the first shot, by cocking the hammer as the gun is drawn. But to do so requires great skill and hours and hours of practice, and even then IS AN UNSAFE PRACTICE. That is why single action speed draw competition is limited to blanks or wax bullets. There is no safe way to cock a single action as it is being drawn...period.

On the other hand, I single action auto like a Colt 45, does not require the hammer to be drawn back because carried cocked and locked, it is already back and can be drawn "BOTH QUICKLY AND SAFELY". Most gun fights are settled with the first shot, and as a round is already chambered for the first shot in the Colt auto or countless other auto styles and types, jamming for the first and most important shot is impossible unless it was originally chambered in error to begin with.

To sum up, a single action revolver is adequate for self defense if it is available. So is a ball peen hammer. They are simply not the best tools available. Now can we stop???

That ranks among the most arrogant and elitist posts I've had the misfortune to read here. We should stop a discussion because one guy adds his 2 cents? Spare me.

[sundog]

Boot Hill (and others) is littered with those who have succumbed to, of all things, a single action revolver.

[waksupi]

As far as I can remember of many accounts, after the first guy is shot, usually their companions remember pressing business elsewhere. If you are in a place where you may confront 7 bad guys, you will probably have the rest of your platoon with you. Use a grenade.

[shotstring]

Well, I decided to stir up the pot a bit and I guess I did. Regular swarm of wasps getting stirred up is probably more like it. Given the love and respect for the single actions here, it wasn't unexpected either.

But you folks missed my intent. It wasn't to be arrogant. Just pointing out the the argument for the thread is pointless. Of course the single action can serve as a good weapon for self defense, and I stated so, like more than a dozen other folks here. But as I also stated, so can a ball peen hammer, a tomahawk, a good knife, a rifle or even a skillet if it's good heavy cast iron.

You asked to judge the weapon, not the skill set of the owner. Almost anything can be used for self defense and if the user is skilled enough with it, it will do the job. What is arrogant about that statement? To put a single action on a pedestal over other weapons judged superior by every law enforcement and military agency in the country, now that could be considered arrogant.

Me personally, I could care less what a person chooses for self defense. They all work. I was merely pointing out that rehashing that single actions work for self defense for 12 pages seems silly to me unless one wishes to compare how it stacks up against other firearms as to the effectiveness for self defense. And if you do that in an unbiased way, it still shouldn't take 12 pages to arrive at a pretty obvious conclusion, either way.

[Bret4207]

Me, personally, I don't care what you think is silly or not. Go back to post #1 and read the question. It was meant to start a discussion. If you find it all just too stupid for you to stomach then ignore the thread and leave the rest of us to enjoy hashing it it out. No pedestals involved, just a bunch of guys having a talk that you chose to try and disrupt with your opinion, which you contradict yourself on a few times BTW.

Common courtesy and personal experience dictate that barging into a room and calling people stupid will not usually end well.

[sundog]

What's obvious to me is that a well placed round or two will more than likely end an altercation. Makes no difference from what it's launched. If'n yer feelin' uncomfortable, load all six. If'n yer still feelin' uncomfortable load all six in the other one.

As far as being 12 pages of chatter. Sometimes things need to be sorted out.

Now, where's my 1911?

[shotstring]

Me, personally, I don't care what you think is silly or not. Go back to post #1 and read the question. It was meant to start a discussion. If you find it all just too stupid for you to stomach then ignore the thread and leave the rest of us to enjoy hashing it it out. No pedestals involved, just a bunch of guys having a talk that you chose to try and disrupt with your opinion, which you contradict yourself on a few times BTW.

Common courtesy and personal experience dictate that barging into a room and calling people stupid will not usually end well.

For the record, I didn't call anyone stupid. I merely said the argument is. Big difference. And I worded it the way I did to hopefully get someone fired up enough to challenge me and point out where I was mistaken or gotten my facts wrong. Because so far in this thread, like many others, people just voice their opinions and don't seem to give much credence to what others say, even if they think they do. No one seems to change their minds much in these threads - I mean almost no one - no matter what evidence is presented.
So I thought I would challenge that. Probably a stupid idea on my part. It is true that the wording of the question calls for only a yes or no, and doesn't ask specifically if the SA is better than other weapons or handguns, but it implied it. Either way, I just don't think the answer to this question is one of those where "there are no wrong answers". Either it is a suitable defense handgun or it isn't. Either there are better options or there aren't. And yes, people that aren't very familiar with firearms or are primarily familiar with a SA would probably be better served with that which they know or is more easily understood as was pointed out by one of the posters. But once again, that is putting the emphasis on the user and not on the weapon, but is certainly a consideration. And that is the reason I gave my dad one of my single actions to use for self defense. :o)

Anyway, sorry I started this whole thing. Blame it on the flu and being crappy as hell, but that isn't an excuse - but it is reality. Just disregard anything I have said on this post if it upsets you, because I really didn't wish that.





If you wish to show me where my evidence or argument is flawed, and you say I contradict myself several times, please tell me what the instances are and allow me to address them. If I'm wrong, will be happy to apologize and adjust my thinking.

[Alan]

Actually, there is one scenario where the single-action IS best. I recently re-read the article in Backwoods Home Magazine, by none other than Mas Ayoob. To wit:

IF you are spending the better part of your day on horseback, or a reasonable facsimile thereof such as an atv, dirt bike, snowmobile, etc, then you might want to prefer a single action. The archtype scenario is that you are assaulted by (rattler, cougar, 2-legged vermin) and you draw and fire to handle the situation. Then you have another potential situation - you are clinging to your mount w/ your weak hand, and said mount may be frisky. A single-action is the ONLY kind of repeating handgun you can be sure won't discharge again while you sort things out.

[makicjf]

Interestingly enough,I spend much of my spare time on a horse patroling for pigs. A marlin 30/30 or a Rossi 92 in 45 colt and one of my 45 blackhawks is always on board. These old school weapons fit my life and I'm using them in the same manner they have been used for 135+ years. I am competent and familiar enough with them due to daily use, handling and discharge I feel confident in expanding their duties to anytime anywhere. I would be less competent and familiar with a 1911 or a "Block". I could never practice enough to be familiar with them as with my hunting/packing pig defense guns. My exposure to the semi autos or even a da whellgun would not be as great.
Is a big bore thumbuster much different in all practical purposes than an 870 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck? Both are intimidating,powerful require manual manipulation to fire and are "slow" to reload compared to more modern designs. If it were legal,who would feel undergunned with slide cannon with 4 in the tube and and 1 in thee pipe? Maybe 5 more in a butt caddy. Another thought, givin proper reloading techniques and situational management ( if possible) a lever gun and a pump shotgun can be topped without being taken from battery. A ruger would simply require snapping the loading gate shut: fire twice, open, eject the case,refill, "click" eject fill snap closed. With practice can be done in as much time as it takes to read it. If three rounds were fire, count five clicks and do the same. Subtract the number of shots from eight and thats how many clicks to the first expended round. If you lost track or are empty and pressured, pull the BUG.
Each modality has pros and cons, but FOR ME, for the reasons I have stated, a good Ruger SA (or two) will be my primary choice for an anytime anywhere, any purpose weapon.
JMO,
Jason

[StrawHat]

...C'mon Strawhat, with someone with enough interest in guns and reloading to belong to this forum, surely you have seen a Steel Challenge Match or something similar? I can assure you those half dozen targets don't sit around for long without being knocked down - seconds is all...

I have also seen and participated in scenarios where more than one shooter is involved. Amazing what a trained shooter can do. If they have any training at all, they are not going to stand and wait to get eliminated in a competition.

One against many is usually a bad idea, regardless of weapon. The fellow at the other end of the line is either going to head for cover or start shooting back.

I still stand by what I said in post 222, while I'd prefer the S&W, I could make do with the SAA.

[Bret4207]

If you wish to show me where my evidence or argument is flawed, and you say I contradict myself several times, please tell me what the instances are and allow me to address them. If I'm wrong, will be happy to apologize and adjust my thinking.

The contradictions- You claim the SA is patently unsafe to draw and cock for a fast shot, that it requires countless hours of training and practice and still is simply unsafe. Yet you advocate carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, a practice which requires a goodly amount of training and practice and is considered patently unsafe in any case by many people. Both methods require training and practice and both depend on the shooter keeping his finger off the trigger. That argument is the pot calling the kettle black, no more, no less.

Then you go on to state that the SA is entirely unsuitable because of the apparent certainty of being attacked by multiple people. Yet, you attempt to gloss over the autos biggest issue, the jam or fail to feed, by stating that "Most gun fights are settled with the first shot, and as a round is already chambered for the first shot in the Colt auto or countless other auto styles and types[, jamming for the first and most important shot is impossible unless it was originally chambered in error to begin with." Again, setting things up so as to justify your position by ignoring what you stated earlier in the post.

You know, if you had entered this discussion with just a little class and manners you would have been welcomed. Walking all over people and setting yourself up as the end all arbiter of things is rude, arrogant and more than a bit childish.

[shotstring]

First of all Brett, I must apologize for the manner of my original post. It is definitely a case of saying something in a way that "even if you're right, you're wrong". When I got up this morning far more clear headed, I still remembered everything I had written....in horror I might add. I really am sorry. It was caused by a chemical imbalance from two prescriptions I am taking for a nerve disorder. I have experienced it before so I know exactly what it was, and for that reason don't take the two together at the same time. Apparently being sick with the flu kicked a combination of the two into my system.
In any event, please disregard anything I said and more importantly, the way in which I said it. That is not the normal me. I feel really bad about it.

As for the the inconsistencies you pointed out, they are certainly valid but more because of a limitation of typing space and explanation than anything else. I just used a single action cocked and locked as one example since it addressed the hammer issues of the single action.

But my experience has been that the automatic of today, be it single action or even more so with quality double action autos, that the jam has almost become a myth of the past. At least in a practical time frame. I own 6 autos that have all had at least 500 rounds fired from each of them, and several that have reached several thousand rounds fired, without experiencing a single failure to feed or failure to fire. Granted, that was not the case 20 years ago except for a few very expensive examples or extensive hand work being done. But these days, you can buy a Sig or a CZ or several other quality brands right of the shelf and experience no more malfunctions than with a good revolver. I also have several 1911s that are as reliable or nearly so, but are not inexpensive weapons.

A double action auto would also address all of the safety issues that have been talked about. They take far less training than a single action auto and function pretty much like a revolver with the exceptions of a more complicated take down and a hammer that remains back after a person is done shooting. But most people cock a SA before they intend to fire it, so the same issues apply there, and there is still the issue of lowering the hammer safely. In this regard, the double action autos are the safer of the two as most have automated hammer drop safeties. So, in my mind, the safest firearm combined with the largest magazine capacity, freedom from jamming and ease of use would be the double action auto and not the single action auto or the single action revolver. But I didn't point that out, so my bad.

[shotstring]

I apparently waited to long, and was unable to go into and add to my last post, so I will add here just a bit more clarification on the 1911 cocked and locked subject.

As I mentioned, I used it as an example primarily because it was single action like the SA revolver we are talking about. I used it as an example because it has probably one of the worst failure records of all the autos. Granted, much of this has to do with using untest and unmatched ammunition, unpolished feed ramps and most importantly improper main spring tension for the round being used.

But I still used this gun as an example because in spite of all this, it is still safer to handle WITH THE HAMMER BACK than any standard SAA revolver, and much safer to draw because there is a safety always engaged, unlike with a SAA revolver. I mentioned the first round being chambered, because even if the gun jams, the first round will aways fire. It was probably rather lame of me to use the worst example rather than the best example, but it made sense to me at the time.

And granted, while some autos like the venerable 1911 have had some jamming issues in the past, the revolvers are not without issues. I have had several new revolvers, both single and double action revolvers, new and out of the box, with failures to fire using factory ammunition. The culprit most often was light primer hits. The second was failure of the cylinder to line up properly, which is rather scarce but it did happen to me on two occasions with two different revolvers.

Anyway, that is the end of my clarifying segment. Just some of my ideas, so take them for what you think they're worth.

[Sixgun Symphony]

The 1911 was designed for FMJ ammunition. Use that and it's utterly reliable. Check on the 1984 tests by the US military for a new service pistol. The 1911A1 did remarkably well against the other pistols brought in for trials to replace it.

As far as single action revolvers, it's really about the user. Some people do really well with them as they get alot of practice. A large caliber single action revolver will get the job done.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I love them all. My 1911, Browing Hi Power and EAA Witness are fine and reliable combat handguns.

That being said I also love my 5 Ruger Blackhawks. The balance and handling characteristics of these SA Revolvers has it all over the Semi Auto Pistols except maybe the the Browning.

I have a .30 Carbine with the 7 1/2 bbl and it is a joy to shoot and handle albeit somewhat loud it produces a horrendeous muzzle blast big enuf to toast a side of beef. My .38/357/9MM convertible in the 4 5/8 bbl is easy to pack, conceal and is a great shooter and joy to just hold in my hand. My .44 Bisley BH with the 5 1/2 bbl is a tack driver and handles and points perfectly. A .45 Colt with a brass frame, Jigged grips and a 45/8 bbl also is a real fun gun to shoot and can be loaded up to way beyond .45 Colt SAAMI specs and the gun will handle it. My latest little joy is a 327 Federal Magnum 8 shooter with the 5 1/2 bbl in Stainless.

So for the most part these weapons reside with me in various location about the home in concealed locations, loaded and ready for business.

When out of the house I am usually packing a .44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog Pug with the 2 1/2 bbl and fixed sights with out any hammer spur. Along with that goes a El Paso Saddelry belt slide with 12 fresh rounds. If I go into a really bad neighborhood then I pack the Browning with 3 extra mags along with the hideout .44.

I have been handling and shooting firearms for over 60 years and I as a former LEO am well familiar with the consequences of using any firearm for defense of myself or another. I have fired tens of thousands of rounds on the range and out in the field hunting or woods bumming and the most comfortable, reliable, accurate and useful handgun for me is a Ruger SA revolver.

However when my butt is on the line I want a modern DA revolver with a big slow boolit backed up by my Browning and its set of 4 15 round magazines filled with the best high tech and modern ammo I can buy.

I am a trogodolite and I do not care who knows it.

[Bret4207]

First of all Brett, I must apologize for the manner of my original post. It is definitely a case of saying something in a way that "even if you're right, you're wrong". When I got up this morning far more clear headed, I still remembered everything I had written....in horror I might add. I really am sorry. It was caused by a chemical imbalance from two prescriptions I am taking for a nerve disorder. I have experienced it before so I know exactly what it was, and for that reason don't take the two together at the same time. Apparently being sick with the flu kicked a combination of the two into my system.
In any event, please disregard anything I said and more importantly, the way in which I said it. That is not the normal me. I feel really bad about it.



There you go, all is well and forgiven and I thank you for posting that. As someone who has written things that somehow sound different to someone else than to me, I understand completely. 'Nuff said.

[bob208]

i have read a lot of bickering and a lot of ideas and a lot of how too. but i have only read of 2 people that have used a single action for self defense. me and one other. and we both did not feel under gunned. or any of the other arguments. we just got the job done.

[Hang Fire]

IMO, the 1873 Colt SA is one of the most natural pointing handguns there is, they got it right the first time and it lives on. All I can add is, I have a 126 year old 1873 Colt SA in .44-40 I shoot with black powder only. No way would a perp want to be on the receiving end of that 200 grain soft lead slug.

The 2nd most natural pointer for defence/offence IMO, is the 1911, and again, John Browning got it right the first time. People keep trying to improve the 1911, but it is hard to improve on original pupose designed perfection.

[Bret4207]

See, that's one of those personal preference things Hang Fire. To me, a Colt SAA feels like I'm holding a baseball bat wrong way to. To me the most natural pointing gun is a 4" K or L frame Smith wearing some grip with a filler and open backstrap, followed by a J frame Smith. The 1911's all end pointing down for me, not very natural.

Someplace out there some odd duck probably feels the Astra 600 or Bergman is a natural pointer.

[2wheelDuke]

I just got one of these, it's single action :-)

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n73/2wheelduke/Guns/IMG00537-20111229-2158.jpg

The good thing is that .22lr is cheap to practice with. I've been shooting it until it's too hot to hold making sure I can count on it when I need it.

With some practice, I've got to where I can empty the cylinder almost as fast as I could fire 6 shots with a semi-auto.

So far, I'm not able to draw and get the 1st shot off anywhere near as fast as I could with a subcompact IWB though, but that's understandable.

[Hogpost]

Hang Fire, you & me, pal: see my post from last July on exactly that subject: 44-40 in BP. The effect of that thing going off inside a house room is comparable to a flash/bang grenade.

Perhaps we might all agree (good luck...) on a few points that have been made here, on the understanding that I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss home defense, or perhaps individual CC out-and-about, rather than an officer or agent engaged in assaulting a drug-running or terrorist cell:

1. The gun is less significant than the user: a trained, well-practiced, competent and confident man with a 22 or a flintlock is safer than an unpracticed man with a 15-round auto or an RPG. The world is full of untrained big-city punks with hi-cap 9mms that can't hit the ground; I see them at ranges every day, trying to stay anywhere on the paper at 20 feet.

2. The majority of confrontations in the home, or even on the streets, are settled with the first 1 or 2 hits; and it is unbelievably rare for more than 3 individuals to break into a home.

2. A big soft, even if slow, bullet is more likely to incapacitate with the first round than a smaller one. Too many bad guys have hurt people after taking 2 or 3 9mm rounds including hollowpoints; bure rarely does an attacker continue forward after taking a 200+ grain soft lead slug anywhere on his body.

3. Therefore, noting that single actions are generally large bore (44-40, 45LC, 44Mag) a trained & practiced individual who is most competent with a single action is well justified in using that piece for self defense; and it would indeed be silly for him to throw away his established defensive capability by "switching" to something more modern (or fashionable) in hopes he can become proficient with the new piece before some dipwad starts punching in his kitchen door.

Sound reasonable?