Help Me - I want to make a custom boolit [Archive]

snowman

10-08-2006, 12:54 PM

But I want to do it the right way. Here's the progression of what I would like to do.

1) Design boolit
2) Design cherry
3) Cut Cherry
4) Cut mold blocks
5) Cast boolit
6) Cut custom sizing dies and nose cone for Lyman 45
7) Size

So, will you help me? I will be sure to document the whole project. I have the equipment. I will need to make a double acting vise though. Not a biggie.

My biggest confusion areas come for things like how much shrinkage to design for, mostly tech stuff.

Heck, I'll even take suggestions for what boolit to cut. If it works out well enough, I'll sell ya a mold really dang cheap. I want it in 9mm, that's my only requirement.

So?? Any helpers?

Oh yah, I guess I should list my equipment...

Smart and Brown 9x18
Van Norman #12
Lincoln PowerMig 215
Drill press
7x10 HF Lathe
all the accessories for the above (literally, I'm broke and I KNOW WHY!)

Greg5278

10-08-2006, 01:29 PM

Why not make a profile tool, and cut it on the lathe? Them you would not need a double acting vise. You could drill out the bulk of the material, then ream or bore the remainder. The profile tool could them be used to cut the grooves. Or you could just customize a Boring bar with inserts ground to shape.

Greg

Leftoverdj

10-08-2006, 05:02 PM

I read an article in either Handloader or Rifle on this some years back. Just the section on constructing the blocks alone firmly convinced me that the place to start was by buying junk small caliber moulds. You might eventually want to make your own blocks from scratch, but there's enough involved so I would want to do my practicing on $5 rejects.

45 2.1

10-08-2006, 05:28 PM

snowman

10-08-2006, 06:53 PM

It wouldn't be nearly as much fun to start out with reject molds. Much more fun to make my own from scratch! [smilie=1:

snowman

10-08-2006, 09:44 PM

Doh....I started working on my double acting vise. I had an old dovetail slide that I was going to use to make the vise. Well, while removing all of the caked on grease, I found the word Rivett.

Yup, I hit the jackpot, but now I dont have a dovetail slide :(

One that just ended on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rivett-Lathe-X-Y-Slides-with-Tool-Post_W0QQitemZ180034472548QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10424 1QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item18 0034472548)

dragonrider

10-10-2006, 08:14 AM

Think you could post some pics of the vice as you build it?? Am interested in doing the same. I don't have a dovetail slide but making one is possible.

snowman

11-13-2006, 08:48 PM

I will definately post pics as I build it....I've just got to get some other projects out of the way first. Like cleaning....I need to be able to see the floor before I take on one more project.

44man

11-13-2006, 09:01 PM

Welcome to the raving maniacs page! I have made quite a few moulds but I am pulling my hair out making a cherry for a boolit 45 2.1 designed for me. I am on the third one. Ruined two sets of blocks so far and I am NOT giving up even if it means paying for a cherry.
Most of what I have made that works has been pure luck!

snowman

11-13-2006, 09:11 PM

I understand pure luck....I seem to be better at pure luck than skill!

Boomer Mikey

12-28-2007, 04:53 PM

Is there an update on this project?

Can someone find the Handloader or Rifle article on this , make a copy and forward it to me or share it with us?

The hard part of a project like this is working carefully with 0.0001" values.

This Grizzly Tools H7576 Precision Self-Centering Vise @ $129.95 seems to be a good start for cherry cut molds; it could be rotated on a lathe faceplate too.

I sure would like to see this thread continue.

Boomer :Fire:

Thumbnail: Grizzly H7576

Morgan Astorbilt

12-28-2007, 06:25 PM

I can see how one would crank two blocks in this vise with a rotating cherry in between, but locking the blocks to the individual jaws would be another problem to solve. The rotating cherry would tend to push the blocks in opposite directions. A sliding fixture would have to be made, which would require a vise with a much larger opening. The fixture would be screwed to the vise, replacing the jaw inserts. ( Just working on the problem as I type)
Morgan

Boomer Mikey

12-28-2007, 06:35 PM

I'll replace the removeable jaws with a set of jaws made to hold mold blocks with sliding dovetail slots. Place a set of mold blocks in the vise, use moderate pressure and tighten the dovetail slide jaws locking the mold halves into their respective jaws.

Boomer :Fire:

Morgan Astorbilt

12-28-2007, 08:14 PM

Drilling the blocks for the dowel pins prior, would give a way to re align them after cutting the cavity. Four 1/8" or 5/32" pins, if left long, might be good enough to keep the blocks aligned during milling the cavity, the blocks sliding on the pins. After, the pins could be cut short, exposing 1/8" and the block metal upset around them, to secure them.
Morgan

leftiye

12-31-2007, 02:48 PM

Good idea Morg.. Probly my choice would be to drill the alignment holes prior to cutting the block into mold halves. Then machine the mold faces, and ream one half for press in pins. Ream the other half the same plus .0002".

As for that vise, machine new jaw faces with a standing right angle fence integral to the faces (vertical angle plate-fence). Drill both halves in the same setup with holes to screw onto the vise. Mill both faces from the same piece, and saw apart and surface the saw marks off. Now you can just clamp the blocks in the vise (lightly), and then clamp the blocks to the angle plates with clamps, and you're good.

Drill your blocks (centered with a scope) the diameter of the I.D. of your lube grooveswith a drill with the shape of your boolit nose to the correct depth before running the cherry in there? If your blocks are square, you could drill the hollow point passage for the hollow point pin first.

The biggest problem with making your own double acting vise is making that lead screw with left and right acme threads that meet in the middle (for me anyway).

Buckshot

01-01-2008, 03:39 AM

The biggest problem with making your own double acting vise is making that lead screw with left and right acme threads that meet in the middle (for me anyway).

.............Spigot a LH and RH together and drill across for a taper pin + solder. You probably would not need to buy high precision Acme threaded rod, as the jaws don't move very far. Double opposed nuts on both shafts will eliminate any play.

..............Buckshot

JSnover

01-01-2008, 08:26 PM

It wouldn't be nearly as much fun to start out with reject molds. Much more fun to make my own from scratch! [smilie=1:

True enough but the way these projects pile up, I'd rather start with a junk mold or one that's undersized, use it as a 'blank.' Might save enough time to actually finish the thing some day!

BABore

01-02-2008, 11:55 AM

Here's a double acting vise for cherry cutting molds.

Boomer Mikey

01-03-2008, 12:13 AM

Here's a double acting vise for cherry cutting molds.

Great Bruce, I see you made your vise extra heavy duty with dovetail and guide rod slides!

44 man sent me some pictures of his vise and setup too. It's very inventive to replace the cross slide table with a mold vise in the Smithy.

Very nice work guys!

I was going to make something a little fancier with 7 1/2 degree 3/8" dovetail locking jaw inserts but I'll make a set of vise jaws for the H7576 vise with the simpler holding screws in the side of the jaws and deep slots for the mold block halves as it seems adequate. As leftiye suggested, I plan to drill and ream the mold block alignment pin holes and use them with long pins to help keep the blocks aligned during the drilling and cherry cutting process.

I've gathered some information on making cherries as a Dutchman Reamer and as a six flute reamer. It looks like the Dutchman or "D" style reamer would work well for long narrow bullets and the six flute may be better for the large diameter bullets. Regrinding a drill to the nose profile and 0.020" smaller than the root or grease groove diameter of the cavity is also recommended for roughing the cavities to extend the useful life of a finishing reamer (cherry).

Now if we can get you guys to show us your process of making a cherry with pictures for clarity.

Thanks,

Boomer :Fire:

leftiye

01-03-2008, 05:50 PM

Just looked at the Grizzly vise on the Grizzly website. Go to their catalog, and page 646. It has 4" wide jaws, and 4" capacity. Should be enough. Would be very wise to add a set of guide rods to the clamping jaws for the molds also. As the above picture shows, there are gib tightening screws, so it should be possible to keep it tight. BaBore's vise is beautiful, and it would be wise to make any vise heavy duty like that if you were going to make one. But the twisting forces from cutting are actually about the only force that will be encountered, so with double guide bars in the jaws and the blocks, I'd expect this setup to work fine.

Boomer Mikey

01-03-2008, 11:09 PM

More Info:

Buckshot's constant reminders that most of this stuff is old hat is so true... I recently found Google has digitized many Machine Technology books from the 1900's that contain everything one needs to know about how to make these things work. All of the books are free downloads. Many are worth your time and here are a few I found useful:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1d4JAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=making+reamers#PPR1,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=rohIAAAAMAAJ&dq=modern+toolmaking+methods

http://books.google.com/books?id=PZRIAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA11-PA25&lpg=RA11-PA25&dq=making+reamers&source=web&ots=hCrHJiU1Gc&sig=yicatb7M65vN4TgS_Qqi8pCqJY0#PPR1,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=PZRIAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA11-PA25&lpg=RA11-PA25&dq=making+reamers&source=web&ots=hCrHJiU1Gc&sig=yicatb7M65vN4TgS_Qqi8pCqJY0#PRA11-PA15,M1

After looking at the drawings for BABore's vise I concur with leftiye and I'll add a couple of 1/2" guide rods to the jaws as well.

Boomer :Fire:

Also a few Thumbnails of some fixtures:

leftiye

01-04-2008, 09:28 PM

There's a couple of heavier double acting vises from a guy on ebay. His call sign is jtsmach8xzw. You ought to look at them. Even if I add that on the larger 6"vise the shipping is painful. They're heavy duty CNC vises. See the thread on solid carbide boring bars in Special Projects forum.

BABore

01-07-2008, 08:57 AM

Screw tolerance is extremely important on a Cherrying vise. With a lathe bored mold, the vise is always operated in the closed (clamped) condition. A bit of lash usually doesn't effect performance. In a cherry vise it does and will because it causes chatter.

Boomer Mikey

01-07-2008, 07:28 PM

I received the double acting vise Friday and it looks like it will work fine, there are dovetails and an adjustable gibb to keep the action tight. So far there is no detectable back lash in jaw movement.

I plan to make a cutter-grinder spindle and use it with a cheap PhaseII X-Y table I've had for years, mounting accessories like the Spin Index fixture with tailstock for flute grinding and small rotary grinding jobs.

Boomer :Fire:

Boomer Mikey

03-02-2009, 02:22 PM

I started work on the Grizzly double acting vise last week.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Boomer_Mikey/DoubleActingVise-1.jpg?t=1236015719

It's been sitting around doing nothing the same as me... I made the two jaw blocks, drilled and reamed the guide rod holes to 0.499" then polished some drill rod for a snug fit.

I let my mill get totally out of alignment over the last couple of years and this relatively easy job became a Murphy's Law fun-fest until I took the time to get out the DTI to check and align everything. I found one of the Kurt vise jaws flipped 180 degrees creating a 0.005" difference between each other and the head out of tram by another 0.005".

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Boomer_Mikey/DoubleActingVise-2.jpg?t=1236016275

I found it necessary to make a clean-up cut in the Grizzly vise jaws to get them running perpendicular and parallel to the base and my mill's table.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Boomer_Mikey/DoubleActingVise-4.jpg?t=1236016682

Next, I'll cut the blocks to receive 4 cavity mold block halves and drill, then counter-bore the vise blocks for mounting to the vise jaws.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Boomer_Mikey/DoubleActingVise-3.jpg?t=1236017771

Finally, I'll add a bottom cover to the blocks to keep chips out of the lead-screw and add locking screws to the rear block and clamp screws to the block sides for securing the mold block halves with.

I've shamelessly copied some of the features from BaBore and 44man's vises.

Having fun,

Boomer :Fire:

leftiye

03-02-2009, 04:13 PM

Boomer,
I know your pain (and enjoyment). I'm also making a set of jaws for my Grizzly vise. Thanks for the nice pictures. How do you get anything done with thangs that clean? Must spend alla yer time cleaning up beteen cuts :kidding:

BTW, if anybody has an urge to make cutters to ream out molds to larger diameters, and plans to do it by hand, maybe you'd find it better to do it with the cutter in a milling machine, and with the mold halves in a vice like these self centering ones. By hand - even with the cutter having a depth controlling collar, and my best "taking it carefully" I get some variance in the width of the bearing bands from one cavity to the next.

Buckshot

03-03-2009, 03:21 AM

Boomer Mikey

03-03-2009, 02:10 PM

.................Have you put a TI to each of the jaws (in turn) while clamping them to see if they lift? You can get some 1/16" thick neoprene to attach to the outside (backside?) of each jaw as way covers. I'd also get some 1/8" hard felt and put wipers on the outside of the jaws. Heck, while we're at it :-) drill down through each jaw over each way and then install a springtop Gitts oiler in the hole. Punch out a felt plug and push it down in the oil hole a half inch or so to keep any swarf from getting down to the ways.

Or maybe not? I just like to know there's oil between things that slide or rotate, HA!

..............Buckshot

The Grizzly vise has adjustable dovetail ways... they don't lift when adjusted to provide some resistance to movement. I plan on installing oil holes in the block support jaw that has the guide rods sliding through it along with spring loaded ball bearing check valves.

I don't think guide rods are necessary; they don't hurt anything, and may provide additional rigidness.

I can't stand walking on crunchies and the boss gets mad at me for bringing chips in the house so I usually end up cleaning up after a cut or two and use chip shields often.

I don't have much of experience or patience nowadays so I usually end up doing things at least twice.

I used a roughing end-mill last night for my first time to hog out the mold slot and broke 3 of them... one caught a large chip and tried to re-cut it along with the heavy chip load and broke the flute, another lost it's edge and snapped when the coolant ran out, and the third one got dropped and broke a flute. I like the smaller chips they make and they use less power. I hope enco has them on sale...

Having fun,

Boomer :Fire:

deltaenterprizes

03-03-2009, 04:35 PM

I bought my centering vise from a compant in Pittsburg because Grizzly was out of stock and am glad I did. This thing is a bear weighing about 70 lbs and already has guide rods and cost just a little more than the one from Grizzly. The name on the vise is Edison, but I can't find anything on them.

Boomer Mikey

03-03-2009, 05:05 PM

I saw mention of the Edison vise in one of your earlier posts and tried to find one. I couldn't find one.

Boomer :Fire:

Boomer Mikey

03-06-2009, 03:45 AM

I didn't break any more endmills and enco had all the endmills I could afford on sale so Ive been working on the vise mold block jaw set for several evenings. Several problems came up because of my lack of experience.

The block halves warped while removing all the material for the pockets that hold the mold halves... I'm using 12L14. I should have roughed out all the parts before drilling and reaming for the guide rods.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Boomer_Mikey/Bullet%20Mold%20Making/DoubleActingVise-5.jpg?t=1236357263

The guide rod holes aren't straight, my mill doesn't have a lapped quill resulting in quite a bit of slop during boring operations with the quill unlocked and the square column supports a 300+ pound gear head assembly; pushing up or pulling down on the mill head will result in deflection of the head up to 0.015". This makes it necessary to bore and ream the holes, fit the guide rods, then return the assembly to the table and mill the blocks to be true to the guide rods, then true the blocks to those surfaces.

I would really like to get a turret head mill but I don't have the room or money for one so I have to make what I have work.

After squaring the new jaw set again and taking a skim cut on the mold pockets the new jaw set is reasonably repeatable... 0.0005".

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Boomer_Mikey/Bullet%20Mold%20Making/DoubleActingVise-6.jpg?t=1236357191

The original removable vise jaws weren't anywhere near square and the mounting holes were out of position after milling the step on the jaws parallel to the mill's table; I couldn't use them as a template for drilling holes. I made a custom transfer punch from drill rod in the lathe to mark the hole locations on my new jaws for drilling and counter boring... that worked well.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Boomer_Mikey/Bullet%20Mold%20Making/DoubleActingVise-7.jpg?t=1236357121

All that's left to do is to tap and counter bore for the 4MM socket head cap screws I'm going to use to secure the mold block halves in each jaw and make a set of spacer blocks for 4 cavity and 2 cavity mold blocks.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Boomer_Mikey/Bullet%20Mold%20Making/DoubleActingVise-8.jpg?t=1236356816

I plan to make 2 cavity molds to RCBS 2 cavity mold outside dimensions and 4 cavity molds to Lyman 4 cavity outside mold dimensions that will use RCBS or LEE handles.

Having fun,

Boomer :Fire:

leftiye

03-06-2009, 04:54 PM

FWIW, I just got one of the Grizzly self centering vises recently, and have been buying reamers and drills to put in the guide rods, as well as trueing up my other milling machine vise, and squaring up the pieces of aluminum that I plan to use for mold block holders.

Last night I got around to taking the removeable vice jaws off of it and taking it apart. The threads in the jaws were found to be abhorrently loose. Not real horrible in lash, but just plain sloppy in side wobble. The threaded holes in the jaw blocks must be .020" at least bigger than the screw. And, to make matters worse, the thread is something like 22mm with 6 1/2 threads per inch (no way to cut that on an inch lathe). Threaded acme rod , nuts, dies, and everything else is out of this world costly. I can only see the possibility of boring out the threads in the jaw blocks, and making brass sleeves to press into the holes, making a new lead screw, and threading them with a smaller (22mm is about 7/8" and there is room to put a 3/4" or 5/8" screw into the sleeves) standard home made thread that is lapped for proper fit.

I do see that back lash could be a porblem, as babore says , causing cutter chatter to happen. I also think that the guide rods may be critical in keeping the mold halves from ofsetting from cutter thrust and making oval cavities.

Again FWIW, I guess grizzly is on a par with Enco, and sells the worst of the chink garbage. I'd send it back in a heart beat, but the cost of the shipping both ways that I'd lose would be more than the cost of the vise.

Boomer Mikey

03-06-2009, 07:29 PM

I understand your frustration; I didn't expect much more than what I paid $125 for. I installed set screws with brass tips to increase the force necessary to slide the guide rods through the jaws... the same effect as tightening a gibb. I don't expect cutting forces to be so great as to overcome the friction to cause chatter.

Boomer :Fire:

Buckshot

03-07-2009, 04:18 AM

Again FWIW, I guess grizzly is on a par with Enco, and sells the worst of the chink garbage. I'd send it back in a heart beat, but the cost of the shipping both ways that I'd lose would be more than the cost of the vise.

...............Kurt has a nice one :-)

Self-Centering Vise, 4" Part No. SCD430 Price: $1,932.35 USD

Kurt has two Self-Centering vises, a 4" jaw
width (SCD430) and a 6" jaw width
(SCD640). Jaw opening on the 4" model is
6.25" and 8" on the 6". Centering accuracy
from minimum to maximum opening is
0.0006" with 0.0002" repeatability. Both
movable jaws are Anglock design with zero
lift. A unique feature is an adjustment that
allows the centerline of the jaws to be set.
This is especially important when mounting
several vises on one machine and all
centerlines must match.

..................Buckshot

Boomer Mikey

03-07-2009, 11:20 AM

[QUOTE=Buckshot;514415]...............Kurt has a nice one :-)

Self-Centering Vise, 4" Part No. SCD430 Price: $1,932.35 USD/QUOTE]

I was going to mention this; I can't justify buying a vise that cost more than my milling machine when it was new and I don't have the skills or equipment to make anything approaching that level of quality and precision.

If this doesn't work I can try to make another lead screw slightly oversize and try to lap it in for minimum play or remove the jaws from the vise and fit backlash nuts to them. My cheap Chinese lathe does cut metric threads (I've ground acme thread cutting tools before and turned acme threads). Worst case would be to get a couple of bars of acme thread and nuts from from enco or MSC and fit them together as Buckshot suggested earlier with taper pin splice joints. Spring or jam backlash nuts aren't hard to make and I would prefer the brass or bronze nuts anyway.

All of this could be done for less than the cost of the original vise and could be a waste of time. Money I don't have, and time... well, I have more of that than money at the moment and I could learn something.

If I was in the business of making molds I could justify the cost of a Kurt vise and the cost of a turret head mill for that matter. I wasted more money buying Chinese vises and trying to make them "good enough" than the Kurt vise in the picture cost. Some things are worth their cost... Kurt products are worth their cost.

How is the new enco mill Buckshot? I want one real bad but my boss insists that I don't.

Still having fun,

Boomer :Fire:

Boomer Mikey

03-14-2009, 04:08 AM

I'm still working on the vise jaws and spacer blocks... almost done.

I ordered 50 sticks of drill rod, a 6 foot 5/8" x 1.5" bar of 6061 aluminum and some 3/16" x 1-1/4" flat stock material to make a few mould blocks and sprue plates.

I need to make a few fixtures for my tool grinder and grind some lathe form tools for gas check shanks, lube grooves, crimp grooves, and learn how to grind a nose radius form tool.

I plan to make a pair of finish "D" bit and a roughing "D" bit reamers to see if I can make a reasonable copy of a Lyman 225107 .22 mould. I should be able to rough cut the cavities within 0.020" of finish size or less to save wear and abuse to the finish reamer.

I'm going to use 1/4" alignment pins in the mould blocks and fabricate a set of 0.2485" alignment pins to fit in 0.249" reamed holes in the blocks to act as guide/alignment rods during the cutting process adding additional stability and replace them with 0.250" or 0.251" press fit round end pins similar to what RCBS uses or I may use a truncated cone shape on the alignment pin.

Still having fun,

Boomer :Fire: