Trying lead in my 357 and 45.

[357Ruger]

I tried shooting lead bullets years ago and it took me days to clean the mess out of my revolvers. With the price of jacketed bullets I've decided to try again.

I've already picked up some Penn premium 158gr TCs sized .358 for the 357 and 255gr RNFPs sized .452 for my 45Colt and ACP revolvers.

The bullets are a slip fit in the cylinder throats on the guns I plan to use. Any recommendations for loads that wouldn't lead in these three calibers would be greatly appreciated.

I already tried 14.5grs of 296 behind the 158gr bullet in my Ruger GP-100 and was overjoyed to find no leading in the throats or forcing cone but bummed to find leading from about halfway down the barrel to the muzzle. Primers were flat and the load shot so so.

[waksupi]

If they are slip fit, they are most likely too small, and will once again lead your barrel. You should need a bit of force to pass them through your cylinder. You most likely need at least .359+, and .453+. That's the problem with buying commercial boolits. They don't fit. That is what caused you leading


Welcome aboard, we will get you up to speed , and having a clean shooting handgun.

[357shooter]

Welcome to the forum. You might try 5.1 grns of HP-38 with the 158 357 magnum. It works great with a 158 SWC, don't know why it wouldn't work for a 158 TC.

I haven't had much success with .358 bullets in my 357, it really likes .360 diameter much better. I didn't get leading with the .358 with this load but it wasn't that accurate past 15 yards, but that's true of all the loads with 358 bullets.

Can't help with the 45's.

[Bass Ackward]

If you want to shoot smaller than throat sized bullets, you are best off developing your own loads. Everything is different for you because your dies are different, your brass is different and on and on.

Developing your own loads means starting way low and coming up. Regardless of hardness, you will come up dirty and then all of a sudden the next charge level will clean up. That is because you sealed before you blew off your lube. Everybody worries about gas cutting, but your lube went long before that had a chance to happen. As you go on up you will be OK up until you get to the top end and either use up the lube too fast or just exceed it's ability to prevent galling.

If your throats are too big, or your dies don't have good case neck tension, or the bullets are too hard, you may have trouble establishing a seal anywhere. (important to understand to know how to adjust)

"Your" working window with "that" gun is between those two points. If you do that with a mid range speed powder, then you can guestimate for faster and slower powders fairly well.

[2 dogs]

Ok, just to let you know, youre already doing it wrong by going out and buying bullets that "slip" fit.

First, any plain base lead bullet you shoot has to "seal" your cylinder throat. Thus, its best to shoot the biggest bullet that will fit. In order to do that, you MUST know the size of your cylinder throat. If you shoot anything too small to seal your throat, you will lose your lubricant as stated above and welcome to lead city.

Now, how big is your cylinder throat, or throats. Well, dont bother to measure them with calipers. You need a inside micrometer, pin guages, or an oversize slug you can drive thru and measure with a micrometer. If you dont have any of those things I highly recommend you pull the cylinder off the gun and send it to someone who can set your throats to the proper size they need to be. I recommend Alan Harton or Dave Clements.

Now, you have your cylinder back from the smith and youre damn sure your throats are say .4525 which would would indicate you need a .453 bullet to get your throat sealed properly.
So, you run out and buy an box of bullets sized .453 and go shooting right? WRONG!!! You have to make sure the bullets you get actually ARE .453 and not some other smaller diameter. If they are .454 or whatever thats fine if they will fit in your cylinder but they cant be smaller than the dia of your throat. Dont go by what the box says. MEASURE. Use a micrometer.

So now, you got a proper cylinder throat diameter and you are shooting proper size bullets and still getting leading. What you have done to this point is narrowed the leading issue to your barrel. You either have a restriction in the barrel or a rough bore. I dont give a red rats ass who made that barrel. How do I know this? Because I probably own more custom guns with custom barrels than most people. I have seen douglas, shilen, pac nor, Freedom Arms, and most especailly stock ruger barrels with all kinds of restriction at the threads, or in the middle or you name it.

From this point, you have to decide to either firelap or replace the barrel. Personally I firelap first. I have never hurt a barrel firelapping. As a matter of fact, I am firelapping a Freedom Arms 97 45 this week and a custom 500 Linebaugh next week.

Get back to me and let me know what you work out.

[357shooter]

When buying cast bullets determining what works and working up loads for you gun is important. However, I think though that advice as to what works for others can be very helpful to someone trying out lead. With that said let me add to my prior post about diameter.

If you are looking to shoot accurate target loads in the 357, buying soft swaged bullets can work really well. The Speer, Hornady, or bullets from folks like Magnus are excellent. Working up loads that work well in our gun is easy and they can be very accurate.

That's a practical suggestion on what might work well for you.

If you are looking for max velocity, max pressure full house rounds that's different.

You can control what you buy, the OAL and the powder/type/charge. Working with those items (for accuracy) go swaged, try some longer OAL's and work from there. The 5.1 HP-38 for the 158 can get you into the ballpark quickly and does work in many guns.

Going down the path of measuring etc is great if that's what you want to do and is helpful if you plan to cast. If you are looking to just buy some bullets, keep it simple and get some results this will work very well.

[2 dogs]

prgallo is correct and that may work well for you. I shoot a swaged 125 grain .358 diameter bullet on 5 grains of 231 that has been very accurate in every gun I have tried it in.

BUT if your cylinder throats are too small it still wont work. If your cylinder throat is swaging your bullet down below the size of your barrel you will have all the same problems. I have also seen cylinder throats that all measure something different. So there ya go!

As I stated, you have to elimanate one problem at a time. Im not sure how many sixguns I have, but I am sure what works for me. Good Luck!

[trapper9260]

I shoot lead in my 357 blackhawk and have no leading . But I cast and size my own bullets. When I use factory laoded 44mag in my redhawk I had leading but when I went to cast my own I had no problem. I do check the BHN of the lead I cast with the Lee tester. I was told some factory cast bullets are made of soft lead and some guns do not like it. and are not size right. If there is a problem with bullet slug your barrel to get the right size bullet. Just my own advice.Thank you

[HeavyMetal]

Your leading started about half way down the barrel?

That means whatever lube your commercial caster was using failed at that point. I would contact him and see if he has other lubes available, if you continue to buy someone else's bolits.

If you decide to cast your own the RCBS .357 150 SWC is the mold to get. lube them with Carnuba Red and load on the same amount of 296 and size .359

Your problem will go away!

[Firebricker]

357 Ruger, First off welcome to the forum. The posts up above contain a lot of good info on fit you will want to slug your barrel as well. Another thing is store bought lead boolits don't alway's have the best lube on them. I am sure with out a doubt you can get your revolver's shooting great with cast. On cleaning a leaded barrel look in the stickie section for the recipe for "Ed's Red" solvent that used with some chore boy copper scrub pads on the brush will clean it right up. FB

[357Ruger]

Thanks all for the suggestions. It helps to have ideas from people who have already been down this road. I will get bullets that fit my cylinder tighter and go from there. I don't have any casting equipment but Penn will sell them in a range of sizes.

I did check the diameter of the bullets with a micrometer and they are .0005 oversized (.3585 and .4525). Looks like I should have asked for .360 size bullet for the GP-100. According to my inside micrometer they are running .359 or slightly smaller.

[357shooter]

That's one approach, why don't you try the harder Penn bullets sized bigger and also get some soft swaged bullets and see what is more accurate. That's assuming you are working towards accuracy as the goal.

Letting them bump up to suit your gun may work better. This is apposed to the opinions expressed on the Penn site about what works best, I realize that. Their approach of using harder bullets just hasn't proven itself in my Taurus 66 6 inch 357. I'm sure it works in some revolvers, only because so many claim that it does. Try it out in yours and let us know what works best in your GP100.

[357Ruger]

Sounds good I have the larger bullets on order and have some Speer 148 HBWCs and 158 SWCs that I picked up locally. You think these will bump up enough to stop the leading in the GP-100? I have an older Security Six I will try them in as well. The throats on that gun seem to be right around .3575. I forced a couple of HBWCs through and they measure after starting out at .3585. The older gun has a smoother forcing cone and barrel than the GP-100 as well.

[Bret4207]

Welcome. Skimming the posts above it looks like you're getting good info. Fit is King with cast, no two ways about it. But, since you already have the other store bought boolits you can certainly try some lite loads to see if there's any hope. You just never know what will work, especially with low and slow loads. If you do get leading a little solvent and 4/0 steel wool on a worn bore brush will remove it post haste.

If you want to get into cast, and it isn't for everyone, then determine your goals and start with the basics- static fit comes first followed by dynamic fit, that is how the powder charge affects the the boolit on firing and during it's trip up the barrel. That's the part where lube/alloy/temper/powder charge and pressure curve come into play. There's also the issues of mechanical details like the barrel finish and loading die dimensions.

It's a great hobby, it can be as involved as you like. There are pitfalls and plateaus and stumbling blocks, but those are normal in any hobby. Start off low and slow and see how you like it.

[357shooter]

Sounds good I have the larger bullets on order and have some Speer 148 HBWCs and 158 SWCs that I picked up locally. You think these will bump up enough to stop the leading in the GP-100? I have an older Security Six I will try them in as well. The throats on that gun seem to be right around .3575. I forced a couple of HBWCs through and they measure after starting out at .3585. The older gun has a smoother forcing cone and barrel than the GP-100 as well.They work well and bump up enough in most guns. The HBWC will with less of a charge. If you get any leading using the 158 with a light charge, keep increasing (someone else posted this approach) until it clears up.

The Speer should both work fine though.

[Retro]

So I have this 44 Magnum revolver where the biggest cylinder throat measures .435, the next one down .4345 and the other four .434. No worries there, I have the recent group buy .434+ mould.

However, the barrel slugs .422 (about) and .430.

What's going to happen if I try to squeeze a .434 bullet down that barrel? Or should I just go for it and watch out for pressure?

[HeavyMetal]

Retro:

Walt Melander had a favorite saying:

When the Big Light Hits the boolit will fit the barrel!

A little over size in a revolver is no big deal just use the start loads in any good manual and watch for signs of pressure like sticky extraction.

Do Not try to read primers they lie!

Instead try "miking" case's before and after firing. For this to work properly you need several factory rounds to fire in your gun to get a base reading for expansion of the case.

Once you have the base expansion measurement simply never exceed that during you load development.

[Retro]

Thanks HeavyMetal.

Sure, I have no problem with a little oversize, I just don't know when "little" ends and "are you fscking nuts?" starts :-)

Yup, I have the Ken Waters bible, so I understand the case mike thing, will do that. In my experience, primers don't lie, as long as you listen, and don't try to interpret them to suit what you want the truth to be.

(If someone reads this in 2015 and my post count is still 12... it didn't work, and I blew myself up :-)

[pmeisel]

Retro, post again soon so we won't worry about you!

[2 dogs]

Retro, shoot em thru there! You will be fine!!1

[357Ruger]

I loaded 100 rounds with 2.7grs of Trailboss behind the Speer 148 HBWC. Shot them through three revolvers all with throats measuring right around .358 and experienced no leading in the barrel. Just a smidge of leading in the throats on one gun.

The same load behind Magnus 148 HBWC did not lead the rifling either but leaded up the cylinder throats bad. Anybody experience this and have a recommendation how to alleviate it? Do I need to increase the powder charge behind the Magnus bullet?

Thanks again for any help.

[357shooter]

Bass Ackward in post 4 gave the right advice. Start working up with the Magnus until it clears up. Working up the Speer should take care of that leading too.

[Bass Ackward]

I loaded 100 rounds with 2.7grs of Trailboss behind the Speer 148 HBWC. Shot them through three revolvers all with throats measuring right around .358 and experienced no leading in the barrel. Just a smidge of leading in the throats on one gun.

The same load behind Magnus 148 HBWC did not lead the rifling either but leaded up the cylinder throats bad. Anybody experience this and have a recommendation how to alleviate it? Do I need to increase the powder charge behind the Magnus bullet?

Thanks again for any help.



Since you are comparing apples to apples that should both be about the same hardness, I'd guess lube. Always pays to have a bottle of LLA sitting around as a tool for a real quick check.

[357Ruger]

I pulled some of my 148 HBWC bullets and measured them. They measured .3565 just from the loading process. I think that might explain why there was some slight leading with the Speer bullets and a lot with the Magnus. The Speer bullets have a much tougher coating (supposed to be Hi-tech whatever that means) so they only displayed slight leading in one revolver. That revolver did have the loosest throats running close to .358.

The Magnus leaded badly only in the throats so I'm assuming there wasn't a good seal while passing through the throats. I'm still not sure why the Magnus bullets didn't lead the barrel after leading the cylinder throats. Maybe somebody could explain that to me.

[357shooter]

I pulled some of my 148 HBWC bullets and measured them. They measured .3565 just from the loading process. I think that might explain why there was some slight leading with the Speer bullets and a lot with the Magnus. The Speer bullets have a much tougher coating (supposed to be Hi-tech whatever that means) so they only displayed slight leading in one revolver. That revolver did have the loosest throats running close to .358.

The Magnus leaded badly only in the throats so I'm assuming there wasn't a good seal while passing through the throats. I'm still not sure why the Magnus bullets didn't lead the barrel after leading the cylinder throats. Maybe somebody could explain that to me.Magnus swaged bullets are lightly harder than the Speer, which is probably why they leaded the throat with the same load. By the time they got to the barrel they probably obturated or bumped up.

The soft swaged bullets will swage down a bit once in the brass. I wouldn't worry much about their size as this approach is to have them bump-up to your throat and barrel size. Using a charge big enough to do that is the goal.

Have you continued to work up the load a little at a time as the leading should clear up completely. I'm not familiar with Trail Boss, the HBWC's usually work very well with fast powders like Bullseye, 700x, and also HP38. There's a bunch of others like Clays that work well too.

[357Ruger]

Magnus swaged bullets are lightly harder than the Speer, which is probably why they leaded the throat with the same load. By the time they got to the barrel they probably obturated or bumped up.

The soft swaged bullets will swage down a bit once in the brass. I wouldn't worry much about their size as this approach is to have them bump-up to your throat and barrel size. Using a charge big enough to do that is the goal.

Have you continued to work up the load a little at a time as the leading should clear up completely. I'm not familiar with Trail Boss, the HBWC's usually work very well with fast powders like Bullseye, 700x, and also HP38. There's a bunch of others like Clays that work well too.

Thanks again for the info. I'm putting some loads together to shoot on Monday. Unfortunately that was the last of my Magnus bullets. I have plenty of Speer bullets left.

[357shooter]

Thanks again for the info. I'm putting some loads together to shoot on Monday. Unfortunately that was the last of my Magnus bullets. I have plenty of Speer bullets left.Those wadcutters and the 158 wadcutters are great to load and shoot. Wish I knew more about Trailboss, I don't think Hodgdon lists it for the 148 HBWC, but work it up a bit more and see how it goes. Do you have a recipe from another source?

[357Ruger]

Those wadcutters and the 158 wadcutters are great to load and shoot. Wish I knew more about Trailboss, I don't think Hodgdon lists it for the 148 HBWC, but work it up a bit more and see how it goes. Do you have a recipe from another source?

The only 148 HBWC recipe I have is from Hodgdon's website and it is for the 38 Special. They list 2.3grs as producing 15,700psi and 675fps in a 7.7inch barrel. I can say 2.7grs behind that bullet in 357 cases is a pipsqueak load. Off a rest my 5inch 7 shot 686 will but a cylinder full into an inch or inch and a quarter consistently (using a Burris FastFire II).
I've got loads ready to go with 3grs and 3.3grs to see if that cures the slight leading issues in the throats with the Speer bullets. I also located about 30 more of the Magnus 148 HBWCs I will try with 3.3grs since they leaded the throats pretty badly with 2.7grs.

[Bass Ackward]

I don't know how familiar you are with HBWCs of any brand. And understand they have been shot for decades so I am not trying to be alarmist here.

The danger with them is that the lube breaks down on the skirt (bearing area) and galls. (binds)Pressure continues to build and gets high enough that the nose separates from the skirt and continues on to the target.

You notice a hole so that you you think everything is fine. The skirt becomes an obstruction for the next bullet.

So leading isn't the only thing you need to be conscious of. Actually, in this case, leading is a good thing. You are most vulnerable with loads worked up in a fouled bore fired later in a clean gun.

[357shooter]

357: Good luck.

[357Ruger]

I don't know how familiar you are with HBWCs of any brand. And understand they have been shot for decades so I am not trying to be alarmist here.

The danger with them is that the lube breaks down on the skirt (bearing area) and galls. (binds)Pressure continues to build and gets high enough that the nose separates from the skirt and continues on to the target.

You notice a hole so that you you think everything is fine. The skirt becomes an obstruction for the next bullet.

So leading isn't the only thing you need to be conscious of. Actually, in this case, leading is a good thing. You are most vulnerable with loads worked up in a fouled bore fired later in a clean gun.

Thanks for the safety reminder.

[unclebill]

Thanks HeavyMetal.


(If someone reads this in 2015 and my post count is still 12... it didn't work, and I blew myself up :-)

HAHAHAHA!
that cracked me up!

[thegreatdane]

Thanks HeavyMetal.

Sure, I have no problem with a little oversize, I just don't know when "little" ends and "are you fscking nuts?" starts :-)

Yup, I have the Ken Waters bible, so I understand the case mike thing, will do that. In my experience, primers don't lie, as long as you listen, and don't try to interpret them to suit what you want the truth to be.

(If someone reads this in 2015 and my post count is still 12... it didn't work, and I blew myself up :-)

So, did you blow yourself up?

[357Ruger]

I thought it would be nice to give any interested parties an update on my leading issues.

The faster I drove the Speer or Magnus swaged bullets the more they leaded up each guns rifling.

Driving the Penn hard cast bullets with full house charges of Enforcer, AA#9 and 296 cleared up most of the leading with those bullets. They still left streaks in the rifling. Even when I had them sized to .360 and verified them with my micrometer.

Some of you suggested the lube was the culprit and 2 dogs recommended firelapping.

Firelapping definitely cleaned up the machine marks in the throat and rifling making the guns much easier to clean. I was scared to death when I first tried it but it worked so well I've done about five guns.

The firelapped guns lead less but I was still getting leading with the above bullets.

Recently bought some Lee Liquid Alox (LLA) and coated some Penn hard cast and Magnus swaged. My leading problems seem to have disappeared.

Those of you that cast your own probably have a much better lube than we non-casters get with commercial lead bullets. Anyone experiencing leading with cast may want to try LLA to see if it clears up the problem.

By the way I tried Meister and Laser Cast bullets and they leaded up my bores like the Penn bullets prior to LLA.

Hope this is useful to some others trying lead bullets for the first time.

[thegreatdane]

Hey thanks for the update! Glad to know you've found a solution.

[Retro]

(If someone reads this in 2015 and my post count is still 12... it didn't work, and I blew myself up :-)

Figured I should check in :-)

OK, so I got hold of a set of gauge pins and checked the cylinder on my 44 Magnum Astra. .433 and a hair, all of them*. So I sized some boolits to .433 (biggest size die I have) and shot them this morning (yea, it took me a while to find the round 'tuit).

1320 fps, 26 spread, Sd of 9. Sounds great on paper. But the 50m group is 230mm, that's more than 8"...

For the same amount of powder etc, I got about 250fps less using a .429 cast bullet. And groups around half the size.

So yes, the oversize boolit will size down, pressure will be higher, but groups won't always improve.

* I sold the Ruger I mentioned in my original post. Bought a Freedom Arms 454. Damn thing shoots a foot high with 45 Colt ammo and I don't have any 454 brass, will have to get a taller front blade made. Yet another project...

[375RUGER]

So I have this 44 Magnum revolver where the biggest cylinder throat measures .435, the next one down .4345 and the other four .434. No worries there, I have the recent group buy .434+ mould.

However, the barrel slugs .422 (about) and .430.

What's going to happen if I try to squeeze a .434 bullet down that barrel? Or should I just go for it and watch out for pressure?

go for it. I shoot .434 down a .430 barrel.