303 PP attempt on immediate horizon!

[Canuck Bob]

I'm negotiating on a BSA Model E in 303. Just waiting on a guy who has first refusal deal with the seller, he is dragging his feet so it looks good.

The BSA is a nice Sporter based on the Enfield P14 action. Hoping it will not be as fussy as LE in case stretching due to front lockup. It will get slugged but I'm assuming the bore will be on the generous size, any experiences with the Enfield rifles?

If this deal fails it will be a Lee Enfield No5 or No4 variant. There is a nice professionally built Longbranch locally.

Regardless this rifle in 303 will be a dedicated PP shooter. PP makes sense from an economic position for me. No gas checks, simple available alloy use for decent power loads, no lubresizer or lube, and its just got to be cool to shoot PP. Also I'm guessing that ordinary 30 cal molds will work patched up offering good selection.

[nanuk]

i"ve been reading and reading for the same reason.

I would like to eventually put away all my (sell) J-words, and stick to cast PP for the fast stuff, and PP/GGCB for all the slower bigger stuff

[Canuck Bob]

As odd as it sounds it is the technical challenges solved in a low tech way that appeals to me. Bench Rest being the expensive high tech tinkerers game. With CBPP you take what you have and make it work well out in the shop and on the range.

[longbow]

Well, I'm not so sure you will get to use off the shelf .30 cal moulds patched up to suit .303 without sizing. Maybe if you have a generous throat and bore.

There are several people on this forum using standard .30 cal moulds (0.309"/0.310") but as far as I know they size the boolits either before or after patching and sometimes both.

I made a push out mould very similar to the old Ideal PP moulds using an N reamer (0.302") and the cast boolit comes out at 0.301". That worked pretty well in my .308 but my .303 didn't like it. I tried several different thicknesses of paper to get the boolits patched to groove diameter or a little better but didn't have any success until I knurled the boolits which increased diameter to 0.304".

Generally it seems that for smokeless powder paper patching, the boolit should be approximately bore diameter then patched to groove diameter or a thou or so over.

I am not sure that the 0.301" boolit couldn't be made to work in the .303 but I didn't succeed until I knurled it up to about bore diameter.

The short story is that you can certainly try an off the shelf .30 cal mould and with thin paper of 0.001" to 0.0015" and you might get away without sizing. However, it may take some tinkering and sizing boolits to get it to work so don't put that sizer away just yet. A boolit from a standard .30 cal mould will be well over bore diameter.

Lyman used to sell moulds for PP boolits in 160 and 200 gr. They recommended sizing to 0.301" for standard .30 cal. I don't think these moulds are listed anymore.

If you have the ability to make a mould, the N reamer is about as close as I have found. They are inexpensive and readily available. Alternately you can make a D reamer of the size you want.

I have not done a lot of paper patching but I did get pretty good success with moderate loads in my .308 and not bad results with my .303. I have not pushed velocities though.

There are several people posting that are getting good accuracy with loads near or at J bullet velocities. I am sure you will get more advice.

Longbow

[herbert buckland]

I had no luck with 30 cal bullets ,I got a 303 mould and a .308 sizer,PP then ran it through a .314 sizer and thing started to come together,I still have not been able to get the acuracy of J bullets at the same volicity,but others say its posible,Lick you I am new to this and it is a hard learning curve,a couple of things I have found out is PP will not work in a rough barell even if it is still acurate with GC & J bullets and if you start to get leading change your method you are doing somthing wrong ,and bullets have to be bore size or larger to work,EG a .308 PP bullet will not work but a .303 sized through a .308 sizer then PP will,it apears the nose of the bullet has to be at least bore size. My hat is off to the people who have got this PP to work properly the must have great patience because even following advice I have had a lot of falures and still have not got my acuracy yet,but I refuse to be beaten ,if others can do it so can we

[pdawg_shooter]

longbow nailed it. Size the bullet to bore diameter +.001/.0015 and patch to groove diameter +.001/.003 or as large as the chamber will allow. Don't worry about being too large the paper will compress in the bore.

[303Guy]

a couple of things I have found out is PP will not work in a rough barell I don't know about that. I've found it to be the other way round. See my 'Pig Gun' thread. I'm talking old water pipe condition bore here and it still actually prints a 'group' with paper patch. Custom sized castings though and loads developed specifically to suite the bore condition, i.e. not full power but rather, enough powder to shred the patch without leading the 'bore'. The better the bore the more powder is required to shred the patch.:Fire:

[herbert buckland]

My aim is to get military velocitys with PPs .No mater what I do I can not achive this with a rough barell,patch simply fall apart in the barell and I end up witha barell full of lead ,for lower velocitys in the same rifle I can yose GC bullets with no problem ,put a PP bullet in with the same pouder charge and instant leading,this rifle is a tack driver with J bullets

[nicholst55]

Longbow, I like the idea of making a push-out die using a reamer. It shouldn't be too difficult to polish the cavity out .002" or so, to make the resulting slug bore diameter. My question is how do you give the cavity something resembling an aerodynamically shaped tip?

Here (http://www.icscuttingtools.com/catalog/page_189.pdf) is the reamer I found when I ran a web search. I wouldn't think a bullet with that shape would fly very well or far. Am I overlooking something?

Could you post pix of your mold and the finished bullets?

[longbow]

nicholst55:

I used an N reamer for my first push out mould then turned a nose form with a form tool to get a pointed nose.

So, the body of the mould resembles a swaging die and is the same diameter right through. A nose form is turned to provide a close sliding fit inside the mould. The nose form can be varied (like several different nose forms that can be swapped) and is also used to eject the boolit.

The fits have to be very close or the nose form can be eccentric (sloppy) to the mould body. What I do is to cut the nose shape into a piece of round bar then turn it to be a sliding fit in the mould body. If it is all done without removing the nose form from the chuck then everything is concentric and with a good fit to mould it stays that way.

Alternately, you can make a D bit in the shape of the boolit you want, ream the mould body then drill through to install a small ejector. This can be flat for flat nose, reamed pointy for whatever nose shape you want of hollow point. They all work.

Chief disadvantage of the boolits is no grease grooves. For paper patching that is no problem. For full bore applications I have used grease cookies and also knurled to allow lubing the surface. This being the paper patch forum I will leave the surface alterations for lubing alone.

I had a bunch of photos posted but I think I have removed them be cause I had too many attachments using up space.

You might try a search for heathydee. He made a mould the same way and posted results here and on Home Gunsmithing.

I use 1 1/2" round bar because it it convenient and a sprue plate just fits. 1/1/2" square would work well too but then I have to change chucks. I am lazy and I had 1 1/2" round so that is what I stick with.

The old Ideal pushout moulds were very light construction and must have overheated badly. Even my 1 1/2" moulds get cooled often if I am casting fast or large (I use them for shotgun slugs).

So far I have only made single cavity moulds but am planning to make a four cavity. For that I will need square or rectangular bar stock and my four jaw chuck.

Anyway, I digress and am hijacking the thread here. Sorry.

I will look up some photos and post or I can e-mail if you send me your e-mail address.

Longbow

[6.5 mike]

Heathydee's pics are in the albums, bout page 20 IIRC. Been looking to do the same thing.

[Brithunter]

OK did you get the BSA Model E?

It's been a while now since you posted this.

[303Guy]

OK did you get the BSA Model E? Likewise?

I have a rifle that would not pass a patch intact untill I fire-lapped it. The boore is good but was a tiny bit rust textered or maybe just fouled. Anyway, it cleaned up real good and now passes those patches just fine. Might work for you too.

[Brithunter]

For those who might not have seen one before this is a BSA Model E:-

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/4011864/376549980.jpg
I recently fitted the Redfield 70WCH sight to mine.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/4011864/376662540.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/4011864/51041570.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/4011864/51041129.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/4011864/50085443.jpg
I have the original rear sight of mine stashed safely. Before acquiring the Refield I had a P-H 6E fitted.

So far I have not tried patching for these .303 rifles. That might come later once I get the casting stuff set up.

[quasi]

Here is a couple of Model D's;

This one is a .270, soon to be a .458 Lott.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s320/buckbrush1961/UG37409BSAright.jpg

This one is a .303, soon to be a .500 A2

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s320/buckbrush1961/IMG_1595.jpg

Here is the nicest #4 Sporter I have seen, done by Churchill.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s320/buckbrush1961/Churchill201.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s320/buckbrush1961/Churchill20202.jpg

[303Guy]

I'm not gealous![smilie=1:

Interesting way to mount the scope. Would that have the original trigger mechanism or a retrofit decent one?

Are the BSA model D's and E's built on P14 actions?

[quasi]

The scope mount on the #4 is a no drill S+K Mount, the rifle now wears a Pachmayr Low-Swing side mount. The trigger is stock military, two stage which I like.

The BSA's in .303 and 7mm mag. are P-14's, the 30-06's and .270's are M-17's.

[303Guy]

Here's my 1902 No1 with my scope mount and my stock ( the butt started out as an unfinished blank).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-685F-1.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-538F.jpg