I. J. identification: safe with smokeless?

[Molly]

Hi fellows,

I've just picked up one of what might be one of the very nicest Iver Johnson breaktop revolvers still around. It's sure the nicest I've seen anyhow. I'd like to shoot it, but I don't want to ruin it with an unsuitable load. I'm hoping that some of you guys who are into these older guns can pick up on something and give me a few clues. Here's what I can tell you:

1. The barrel rib has "Iver Johnson cycle and arms works" and (just below that) "-----Fitchburg, Mass, USA -----"

2. The SN of 583285 is stamped on the bottom of the trigger guard and on the frame, under the grip. (Other than the above, there are no patent dates or other marks on it that are evident to a casual examination. )

3. The grip is one piece wood, considerably longer than the frane, and attached by a single screw through the bottom and into the bottom of the frame.

4. It has a six inch barrel (with a mint bore).

5. It's cylinder is six shot, and chambered for the .32 S&W Long.

6. The sights are the typical myopic special consisting of a tiny groove on top of the break-open latch and a half-moon sliver of a front sight.

7. It has a frame-mounted firing pin, not the usual point-on-the-face-of-the-hammer.

8. It has the famous "hammmer-the-hammer" safety mechanism that prevents the hammer from hitting the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled fully back. (When did that first appear?)

This little jewel has either been refinished by a master gunsmith, or it still has 98+% of its original blue / black finish. At first glance, it could almost be taken for a new gun. I get the distinct impression that it was bought as a house / bedroom gun, shot a few times, and then put away. There are wear marks on the hammer and cylinder that testify to the fact that it was shot occasionally, but the total absence of any of the corrosion and pitting that frequently accompanied the use of BP ammo leads me to suspect it was fired with smokeless ammo only. The wood grip shows no evidence of being refinished, and fact that the varnish is still vitually intact also kinda says it didn't see much use.

OK, can any of you guys pick up any clues that will identify what I've got? This little sweetheart just begs to be shot, but I don't want to hurt it either. I can always load FFFg ammo, but I sure hate the mess of cleaning up. Anyone got any guesses whether it's safe with light smokeless loads? How about with factory ammo? Any thoughts on what it might be worth?

Regards,
Molly

[home in oz]

Photographs?

[Molly]

Photographs?

Not easily or soon, I'm afraid. I'm going in the hospital for surgery tomorrow, and won't be up to much while I recover.

I've been doing some research on the web though. I've found out that IJ converted all their revolver production to 'smokeless-compatible' in 1909. I also learned that IJ quit putting patent dates (etc) on their revolvers at some point. That seems to fit what I've got, so now I need to find out when they quit rolling patent dates on them.

Ah HA! Just found this on the GunBroker forum: "... this patent date was use from 1914 until they stopped puting patent dates on their revolvers." This suggests rather strongly that my revolver was made sometime well after 1914, and is therefore safe to use with smokeless loads. I wonder when they actually quit putting patent dates on, and why?

More Ah Ha! Also from the GunBroker forum:

"THIRD MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMER REVOLVER
(Smokeless Powder Cartridges)--------------------1909-1941
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch with Hammer the Hammer action. This model redesigned to be strong enough for smokeless powder. All coil springs, hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top, optional oversize grips of hard rubber or wood were offered. Two frame sizes, four calibers, Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches.
Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire 5 rounds cylinder capacity,
large frame .32 Special centerfire with 6 rounds cylinder capacity, .38 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity;
Weight:
small frame .22 rimfire with 3 inch barrel 13 ounces, .32 centerfire with 3 inch barrel 13 ½ ounces,
large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel .32 Special 19 ounces, .38 centerfire with 3 ¼ inch barrel 18 ¼ inches;
Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches;
Overall length:
small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches,
large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches.
Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Third Model features a double top post barrel latch, coil hammer spring and four cross pins in the lower frame.VALUE: 100%=$250 60%=$115"

Everything in blue is dead on for my revolver, and I just don't have time to check out the rest right now. I don't see anything I know isn't true of my revolver, especially the four cross pins in the lower frame. The guys on the forum seem to think that is definitive, and my revolver sure has four crosspins. I believe I've identified what I have, but hey, what do I know? Can one of you real buffs tell me any different?

OK, this one IS definitive, and comes from B. Goforth, the guy who literally wrote the book on these guns. "...the oversize "western walnut" grips were only offered on the third model safety automatic revolver manufactured between 1909 and 1941. " and "on the early production of the third model the western walnut grips were considered a special order and these serial numbers will not have a letter code. the number simply mean it was that number equiped these these grips, however i have not seen a special order number as high as 7,839. therefore this revolver was most likely manufactured after this practice was stopped in about 1921."

Under magnification, the SN on the frame has a "C" letter prefix. There is no prefix on the trigger guard. So I seem to have a late production (post 1921) large frame third model Safety Automatic Hammer Iver Johnson revolver. The "C" isn't very plain until you look for it, and is not very close to the rest of the SN, which is why I missed it initially.

[Pepe Ray]

Molly;
I admire your perseverance and your skill in detective work. Congratulations on your finding this treasure as well as its pedigree.

I wish you well in your new adventure in the hospital. I will look forward to your return to our "home" in Booletville.
Pepe Ray

[Molly]

Hi Pepe,

>I admire your perseverance and your skill in detective work. Congratulations on your finding this treasure as well as its pedigree.

I often find that good luck is seen as skill. (BG)

>I wish you well in your new adventure in the hospital. I will look forward to your return to our "home" in Booletville.

Thank you sir. My visit has been postponed a day, but that just gives me a little more time to play with my new toy, and load some suitable ammo for it. I've got a note in my record of loads for the 32 H&R Mag that 2.6g Herco under a 98g semiwadcutter is an exceedingly mild but very accurate combination. That sounds like a good place to start.

[Frank46]

molly, here's wishing you a speedy recovery. Frank

[dubber123]

Molly, that 2.6/Herco should be plenty mild for the old IJ. I would expect you will get some unburnt powder, but if it shoots to the sights, who cares?

[Bret4207]

Molly, sounds like a twin to my 32 IJ. On;y 6" IJ I've ever seen.

[Molly]

Molly, that 2.6/Herco should be plenty mild for the old IJ. I would expect you will get some unburnt powder, but if it shoots to the sights, who cares?

I took it out and ran it through its paces today. It was a delight! The 2.6g/Herco/98g cast bullet not only had notably more pep than I expected, it shot dead on the sights at 50 yards, and gave excellent grouping. (Shooting from sandbags, I got several 25 yard cloverleafs) This load used a heavily crimped, plain base SWC cast bullet sized to 0.314" with Alox / beeswax lube, and CCI SP primers. OAL was 1.187". Recoil was mild, and primers were very rounded. There was NO unburnt powder, and no leading. CAUTION: This load, though mild, is no toy: I think it would do nicely for small game.

Wonder what the odds are of hitting dead on a nice load like this with the first crack out of the box? (Edited: Not exactly first crack, now that I think of it. I ran a ladder study of Herco and the 98g bullet from my scoped Ruger 101 in 32 H&R, and this load stood out for both mildness and accuracy. That's why it was the first load I tried in the IJ breaktop, but it was just dumb luck from there on.)

I haven't had a chance to chronograph it, but my impression was that it was a decent approximation of - and slightly below - factory loads. But for sure, it will be my first 'go to' load for any other breaktops that come my way in the immediate future.

(As always, your milage may vary: Start low and work up. I have no control over your components, reloading skill/practices or the condition/safety of your gun, and cannot accept any responsibility for the results thereof. This information is exclusively for the entertainment and information of individuals with the skill and understanding to use it safely and correctly.)

[Molly]

Molly, sounds like a twin to my 32 IJ. On;y 6" IJ I've ever seen.

Yeah, this is the only one I've ever seen too. I think a 3 1/4 inch barrel was standard. Ours must have been special orders.

[Molly]

molly, here's wishing you a speedy recovery. Frank

Thanks Frank. It's not going to be a pleasure, but it's really not a big deal: I've had it before, and managed to survive.

[dubber123]

Molly, my old Speer manual goes all the way to 3.7 grains of Herco with a 95 gr. Swc in a 4" S&W model 31. They list chronoed velocity as 946 fps.. 3.2 grains is their start load at 804 fps. I would be curious as to how the longer barreled IJ compared. Nice to see you got a well regulated load on the first try!

[Molly]

Molly, my old Speer manual goes all the way to 3.7 grains of Herco with a 95 gr. Swc in a 4" S&W model 31. They list chronoed velocity as 946 fps.. 3.2 grains is their start load at 804 fps. I would be curious as to how the longer barreled IJ compared. Nice to see you got a well regulated load on the first try!

Yeah, that sounds about right. Ken Waters recommended 3.4g Herco with a 98g bullet for 915 fps out of a 6 inch bbl. By proportion [(915*(2.3/3.4)], I guesstimate that I'm getting something like 619 fps, but I didn't have a chance to actually test it. However, I have records of Winchester 98g factory loads that tested 693 to 705 fps out of a 5.5 inch bbl., so when I guessed it was just a little under factory, I think I was probably about right.

[MT Gianni]

It should be a good small game killer. Congratulations on the acquisition and add my thoughts to the others that you heal quickly.

[dubber123]

Molly, my brother just got a .38 S&W IJ 6" in excellent condition with a mint bore a few weeks back. It too has the larger grips. I haven't weaseled him out of it. Yet.

[Molly]

It should be a good small game killer. Congratulations on the acquisition and add my thoughts to the others that you heal quickly.

Thank you sir, and gentlemen. I am now returned home and in sufficiently good condition that I plan to attend the OGCA show tomorrow, though there is some question about how long I will be in attendence.

That load should indeed be a good small game killer, and that's exactly what I intend to use it for. But there's a chance it will be superceeded. I'm anticipating the imminent arrival of a rifle chambered for .32 H&R Mag for the same application, and have some novel (spelled "Interesting") ideas for it.

FWIW, the rifle came about because I once had a #4 Rem in .32 Rimfire that I became particularly enamored of for woods hunting. (See the Rimfire forum, thread 'Duplicating the .32 rimfire" for full information) The short version is that the quite subsonic balllistics provided extraordinary quietness, adequate trajectory and very superior killing power. I hope to regain these advantages by developing a suitable subsonic load for my new rifle. Reflecting on the possibillities, I realized that the simple way to improve effectiveness of a round without increasing the velocity is to simply increase the bullet weight. I specified the rifling twist of my new rifle with this thought in mind. The longer bullet will maintain velocity much more effectively, and therefore keep its trajectory better as well.

I plan initial trials using .32 Long cases and Lyman 311291 (170g) bullets so seated that the resulting round will chamber in both rifle and the IJ pistol. I have a Ruger 101 in .32 H&R that will enable me to screen my loads for primer flattening and similar pressure signs before trying them in the IJ, so I think there willl be little chance of hurting it. Now if I can only get some semblance of accuracy from that long bullet in rifling that was designed for a 98g slug ... we shall see.

Regards,
Molly

[MT Gianni]

311440 would be another candidate. My 32 is a single six but would really like to see what that bullet would do in a contender throated to fit.

[Molly]

Fer the lova Pete! I had the impression you were a bunch of nice guys, and not a single one of you had the decency to warn me that these 32's were addictive! I went to the Ohio Gun Collector show today, and before I knew what was happening, I had purchased a 32 hand ejector that just seemed to jump into my jacket pocket and snuggle in for the duration. What could I do? I paid the dealer and moved on to lose myself in the crowd before he could change his mind.

It was a brand NIB S&W M. 30-1 that has apparently been sitting around unfired since April 15, 1955, which is the date printed inside the box with the matching SN. Would someone please tell me how such a nice pistol that sold for only $380 sit around unbought and unused for over half a century?

Well, it will suffer such an ignomineous fate no longer! I will take it to the range tomorrow and turn it loose. But dang it, I now have not one, not two or even three 32 revolvers. I have FOUR of the durn things to feed. Ah well, such is fate. I shall try to bear up. (Very Big Smug Grin!!)

[MT Gianni]

Great price on the HE.

[Molly]

311440 would be another candidate. My 32 is a single six but would really like to see what that bullet would do in a contender throated to fit.


Yeah, it would indeed. In fact, being somewhat shorter, it would probably be a better candidate. Trouble is, I haven't had a 311440 for a long time. The only mold I ever had for it was so badly cut that pounding the bullets out bent the attachment screws. I finally got rid of it.

[Molly]

Looks like this thread has run its course guys. I've started a similar but broader scope thread that might interest some of you, called "Reloading for breaktops" Maybe I'll see some of you there.

[DHB]

Molly,
Glad your back up and around. Bill Goforth of the Houston Gun Collectors Assoc. is a big, big fan of the Iver Johnson's. He would probably be able to tell you anything. You can call the HGCA and ask them to deliver a message or email me and I will see him the second Wed night of Jan at our standard club meeting.
D

[Molly]

Thanks for the tip, but as it happens, I've identifiec my gun quite clearly by some remarks of his on a forum. Shoud you see him, thank him for me. I'm quite sure he's unaware of the good his posts accomplish.