Is the 30-06 cast performance no better than the 30-30

[Bigoledude]

I'm not ever gonna buy a 30-30. But, I read a post by gearnasher (sp?) where he explained how most reloading manuals top-out most cast 30-06 loads at 30-30 speeds/performance.

I've always admired the old 30-30 but chose to go with faster rounds. I do have a Marlin chambered in .44 mag and a H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 to satisfy my SLOW-n-Big needs.

I like what speed does inside these hogs. I must admit, I sometimes rely on being able to miss the spine in the neck by a little and, still drop 'em cold. I sometimes need a blood trail. I'm somewhat (?) glad to be able to basically get a 30-30 by shooting heavy cast boolits out of my 30-06. But....

Question; How much difference will I notice between the wound-channel of a hog shot with my jacketed 150gr Sierra RN Pro Hunter @ 2800 fps compared to say, the wound channel from a 180-200 grain cast flat/round nose boolit @ 1900 fps?

[x101airborne]

I have very limited experience as i am working this out for myself. I have killed hundreds of hogs with jacketed and only 9 with cast. I am shooting ac 50/50 ww lyman 160 gr rn gc out of an old marlin waffle top 30-30. I have noticed that on the smaller hogs, it really doesnt matter where I shoot them. any well placed shot results in a 20 yard death. On the bigger ones, I can shoot em through the shoulders and achieve results where I could not with jacketed. I have given up some expansion for penetration, true. But overall, I feel it works better than those expensive jacketed loads.

[gnoahhh]

Can't compare apples to oranges. A 180-200 gr. .30 cast will kill a critter just as dead as anything else within it's distance liabilities. If you want to kill stuff further out, go with the '06 and jacketed stuff, I guess. How far is far, how dead is dead? The whole "wound channel" argument is just stuff for debate. Stick a bullet in a vital spot and the animal is dead, big wound channel or not.

[geargnasher]

I guess I don't understand. What I was indicating was that many reloading books don't give cast boolits a chance to perform. Conventional wisdom seems to be that cast boolits can only be loaded very light with fast pistol powders in bottleneck cartridges. Yes, there are exceptions, but the methodology used by much of the industry to build cast loads is very limiting in the performance arena. Like many other individuals here and elsewhere, I tend to treat the cast boolit more like a jacketed bullet when loading, just making the necessary allowances to fine-tune the cast to do what I need it to do. There are limits to cast, but just where they are depends on your philosophy, skills, tools, and knowledge base.

I suggest buying and reading Veral Smith's book "Jacketed performance from cast bullets" and you'll see what I mean.

Now, as far as piggies go, I'll have to reiterate what gnoaahh said. If you can hit them, a good cast boolit load even at lower speeds will kill them just as dead. I can stand next to you with my .30-30 with a 165 grain cast boolit going 2k fps and kill the just as dead just as fast as you can with your Jacketed screamers in a .30-'06. Debating the killing effectiveness of low-velocity cast is a waste of time. Out at longer ranges it matters more, but inside of 100 yards you shouln't worry about it.

Gear

[Doc Highwall]

Check out Ranch Dogs web site he has killed a lot of hogs with his cast bullets.

[dbldblu]

The heavier the projectile, the greater the advantage the 30-06 will have. The 06 will propel a 220 grain cast where no 30-30 dares tread.

[geargnasher]

The heavier the projectile, the greater the advantage the 30-06 will have. The 06 will propel a 220 grain cast where no 30-30 dares tread.

That's why I have both!

Gear

[9.3X62AL]

I have both calibers, and like both calibers VERY MUCH. Cast or jacketed. If expansion potential is part of your cast boolit intention, soft point casting per BruceB's method is indicated, and can be applied to either caliber.

I think reliance upon hyper-velocity is one of the more over-stated and over-emphasized ballistic variables applied to the hunting fields. The 30-30 WCF's modest ballistics and sterling field record on deer bear that out. Hitting the critter where the round needs to be placed is the first priority, and all the rest of the Facklerite Dog & Pony Show lines up behind that. Formulae and calculations don't fill the freezer--good hits do that.

[Bigoledude]

I certainly will read Veral Smith's book. My desire for some speed is because of what I see our .243 do to the neck/spine of the largest hogs. We rarely get an exit wound but, the size of the jellified area is massive using this "lightweight". I also already know what our 30-06 does when loaded with Sierra 150gr RN Pro Hunter @ 2900fps. I'm too old to be impressed with speed, just for the sake of speed only, anymore.

Are y,all claiming that a slower bullet will create a similar sized wound? Yes, I am aware that if I hit the spine, the results between a 30-30 and a 30-06 will be identical. In my original post I mentioned the fact that I do miss the spine sometimes. Imagine that!

The ONLY reason I am interested in some speed is to cause as much damage as I can. We hunt very narrow lanes/roads. If our wounded hog runs only 20 yards, we must go into the thickest, nastiest stuff imaginable. My sons have had several close calls already. No hog is worth even the remotest chance of a confrontation in a thicket.

I have major problems with my legs. I want to start shooting from the bed of my truck parked 100-200 yards away from the bait. Being able to shoot my own reloads is great fun and, pouring/shooting my own cast boolits would be icing on the cake!

These type of discussions can turn ugly, I know. My intent was to ask the question in such a way as to NOT provoke anyone.

Basically, I just wanted to know if my 30-06 could produce the bigole jellified area with a heavy cast bullet allowing me a little room to miss?

Just wanted to know if I was losing anything? I'm just gonna get me a couple of molds and find out what's what.

[excess650]

The Ranch Dog 311-165RF has the largest diameter meplat of any 30cal cast that I've seen. I would expect it to be pretty devastating at 2K fps, and that could be from a 30-30 or 30-06. As previously mentioned, the 30-06 advantage with cast is the ability to handle 200gr+ bullets. The advantage of the 30-30 is to run cast to its full velocity potential, and using less powder.

The Lyman 311284 is the most common heavy 30cal. I've not cast and shot any through my 30-06s, but have shot plenty of the Saeco #301 200gr. Either could benefit from a HP type modification to leave either a shallow HP or wider meplat.

The 1-10" twist in the 30-06 will likely be your limiting factor for velocity.

[Larry Gibson]

"The 1-10" twist in the 30-06 will likely be your limiting factor for velocity. "

That it is.

Larry Gibson

[atr]

Velocity of a bullet can sometimes be over-rated.
One of the BIG reasons for velocity is to get the bullet to the target faster...that way gravity has less time to work on it and therefore less drop.....
all things considered if you are shooting hogs out a 400 yds you might need extra velocity,,,but if they are within 100 yds the difference between 30-06 and 30-30 at cast velocities won't make a difference.

[Blammer]

I can shoot a 165gr Paper patched boolit out of my 30-06 at about 2400fps, so I'm really thinking twist will not limit me with respect to velocity.

[pdawg_shooter]

If you paper patch you can load like jacketed. Same velocity, same accuracy, NO leading and no checks needed.

[geargnasher]

I've pushed unpatched 311284s to 2700 fps with decent accuracy in a .30-'06, but it's an excercise in benchrest dogma and the alloy I had to use wasn't something I'd consider very useful for hunting. I wish it had occured to me then to work up with patched boolits, but at the time I was pursuing that I had only used patches for the .45-70. I shot some more HV .30-'06 weekend before last to see if my old method still worked (hadn't done this in a couple of years), and it still does.

I think atr and excess650 have made the best points yet on this thread.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

I can shoot a 165gr Paper patched boolit out of my 30-06 at about 2400fps, so I'm really thinking twist will not limit me with respect to velocity.

If you want to call it a "limit" it does but it is based more on the alloy hardness and how much the particular bullet can hold up under accelleration. The RPM threshold is there, it is just higher with PP'd bullets. Some push PP'd bullets out of 10" twist .30 cals at 2800 - 3000 fps with very good accuracy. However, they must harden the alloy to do it. The softer the alloy the lower the RPM threshold, even for PP'd bullets. There is a fine velocity balance between a correct alloy for the Ranch Dog bullet mentioned so it will not shatter on game and it's ability to withstand accelleration and be accurate at such HV.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

If I was going to shoot large/tough game with cast I would use the heaviest boolit I could and make it a softnose. In this case the 30-06 would be my choice.

[geargnasher]

If I was going to shoot large/tough game with cast I would use the heaviest boolit I could and make it a softnose. In this case the 30-06 would be my choice.

In that case the .30-'06 would NOT be my personal choice. I'd go for something more like a good English double rifle chambered in something nearer 1/2" diameter.

Gear

[Bret4207]

I certainly will read Veral Smith's book. My desire for some speed is because of what I see our .243 do to the neck/spine of the largest hogs. We rarely get an exit wound but, the size of the jellified area is massive using this "lightweight". I also already know what our 30-06 does when loaded with Sierra 150gr RN Pro Hunter @ 2900fps. I'm too old to be impressed with speed, just for the sake of speed only, anymore.

Are y,all claiming that a slower bullet will create a similar sized wound? Yes, I am aware that if I hit the spine, the results between a 30-30 and a 30-06 will be identical. In my original post I mentioned the fact that I do miss the spine sometimes. Imagine that!

The ONLY reason I am interested in some speed is to cause as much damage as I can. We hunt very narrow lanes/roads. If our wounded hog runs only 20 yards, we must go into the thickest, nastiest stuff imaginable. My sons have had several close calls already. No hog is worth even the remotest chance of a confrontation in a thicket.

I have major problems with my legs. I want to start shooting from the bed of my truck parked 100-200 yards away from the bait. Being able to shoot my own reloads is great fun and, pouring/shooting my own cast boolits would be icing on the cake!

These type of discussions can turn ugly, I know. My intent was to ask the question in such a way as to NOT provoke anyone.

Basically, I just wanted to know if my 30-06 could produce the bigole jellified area with a heavy cast bullet allowing me a little room to miss?

Just wanted to know if I was losing anything? I'm just gonna get me a couple of molds and find out what's what.

No, you probably won't get the same "jellified" wound with cast as with jacketed. First off, you won't be driving them to 2900 fps, a lot of the jelly comes from sheer impact speed. 2nd cast doens't tend to blow up like a jacketed bullet. It tends, usually, to deform more slowly but that's a function of striking velocity as much as temper of the alloy. Cast at 2200 fps wit a FN tends to leave a nice wound channel well into the innards but not give you that grapefruit sized cavity you get with lightly jacketed bullets at high speed.

[Hang Fire]

Just my opine, but for me, the 30-30 and cast boolits were made for each other, where boolits in the cartridge can achieve or exceed J-word accuracy and velocity. Boolits are accurate in 30-30 lever actions, but they really shine in my bolt gun. I have a Stevens 325 with a William's aperture sight, and it shoots boolits accurately like a dream come true.

[dverna]

Well bigoledude, I am perplexed.

You have a jacketed load that works, and you have confidence in. It is unlikely any cast bullet can ever match it.

There is NO advantage a cast bullet provides in the 30/06 case - unless saving a few dollars a box is important. You are hunting an animal that can hurt you if things do south. Like I said - perplexing.

Don

[waksupi]

Well bigoledude, I am perplexed.

You have a jacketed load that works, and you have confidence in. It is unlikely any cast bullet can ever match it.

There is NO advantage a cast bullet provides in the 30/06 case - unless saving a few dollars a box is important. You are hunting an animal that can hurt you if things do south. Like I said - perplexing.

Don

I would beg to differ. I would trust a cast bullet over a jacketed premium bullet every time. Premium bullets fail, cast perform.

[dverna]

Waksupi

You quote a man who died in 1969. He had never seen a modern bullet. His favorite caliber was the 450/400. He also loved the .375 H&H but I doubt it was loaded with "soft lead bullets".

30 caliber cast bullets offer NO performance advantage over a decent jacketed bullet. To think otherwise is simply wishful thinking at best. Yes, a cast bullet can do the job but so will an arrow.

For me, cast bullets offer a way to shoot inexpensively. They are also appropriate for older calibers that are suited to cast bullets (38-55, 40-65, 45-70, etc)

Cast bullet experimentation is fun and I am impressed with what many on this forum have accomplished. Yet, for me, it makes no sense to expend that effort unless it provides an advantage over the performance one can buy off the shelf. So I will always use jacketed bullets in my .30 caliber guns unless I want to load up practice ammunition.

Thus my question to BOD. He has a great load so why screw with it?

Don

[mpmarty]

Thus my question to BOD. He has a great load so why screw with it?

Cuz he can? Or maybe because he wants his favorite rifle barrel to last forever?

[AnthonyB]

Don:
Have you ever taken an animal with cast?
Tony





QUOTE=dverna;1060611]Waksupi

You quote a man who died in 1969. He had never seen a modern bullet. His favorite caliber was the 450/400. He also loved the .375 H&H but I doubt it was loaded with "soft lead bullets".

30 caliber cast bullets offer NO performance advantage over a decent jacketed bullet. To think otherwise is simply wishful thinking at best. Yes, a cast bullet can do the job but so will an arrow.

For me, cast bullets offer a way to shoot inexpensively. They are also appropriate for older calibers that are suited to cast bullets (38-55, 40-65, 45-70, etc)

Cast bullet experimentation is fun and I am impressed with what many on this forum have accomplished. Yet, for me, it makes no sense to expend that effort unless it provides an advantage over the performance one can buy off the shelf. So I will always use jackets bullets in my .30 caliber guns unless I want to load up practice ammunition.

Thus my question to BOD. He has a great load so why screw with it?

Don[/QUOTE]

[felix]

Don, your argument is not holding water. Your point of view is very much like mine, and I am not a hunter in the least (since my teens). I wish I could get the various game animals from my butcher, knowing full well some game animals are actually treated as farm animals like on the Texas farms/ranches, etc. There is nothing better to me than Catfish from a farm, for example. I've had some exquisit deer from a Texas ranch, having been shot in the head to insure a DRT (dead right there kill) by my brothers, dad, etc. That is not hunting in my book. But, if you want DRT, there is nothing better than your take on the subject. In other words, no sporting adventure whatsoever. ... felix

[Bigoledude]

dverna wrote


Well bigoledude, I am perplexed.

You have a jacketed load that works, and you have confidence in. It is unlikely any cast bullet can ever match it.

There is NO advantage a cast bullet provides in the 30/06 case - unless saving a few dollars a box is important. You are hunting an animal that can hurt you if things do south. Like I said - perplexing.

Don

I clearly explained that I just thought it would be "Kicks" to "pour" my own in addition to "building" my own. And yes, my jacketed loads do work perfectly for killing hogs the way I need them killed. Instantly!
You are perplexed because you assume I already knew that:



It is unlikely any cast bullet can ever match it.

There is NO advantage a cast bullet provides in the 30/06 case


Actually, that was exactly why I posted here. I was asking if a cast boolit could do what my jacketed bullets do! You see, I was perplexed also and came here to find an answer.

But, don't be too hard on yourself dverna, the older I get, the more perplexed I seem to be!

This thread made me think, for the first time, about why lead boolit/twist rate determines whether or not a bullet will perform well. The fast twist at higher speed just shaves-off the outer layer of the cast/lead bullet, as opposed the to harder jacketed bullet's ability to "grip" and hold-fast to the grooves-n-lands of the barrel. Duuhh?

I feel kinda foolish. Just never took the time to think it out.

I'll probably just stick with cast boolits in my 45-70 and my .44 magnum lever-action Marlin.

[waksupi]

Well, I have seen a lot of jacket separations over the years, premature expansion, or no expansion with jacketed bullets. Cast bullets kill well. I've done a lot of field testing, you might say.

[Bret4207]

Waksupi

You quote a man who died in 1969. He had never seen a modern bullet. His favorite caliber was the 450/400. He also loved the .375 H&H but I doubt it was loaded with "soft lead bullets".

30 caliber cast bullets offer NO performance advantage over a decent jacketed bullet. To think otherwise is simply wishful thinking at best. Yes, a cast bullet can do the job but so will an arrow.

For me, cast bullets offer a way to shoot inexpensively. They are also appropriate for older calibers that are suited to cast bullets (38-55, 40-65, 45-70, etc)

Cast bullet experimentation is fun and I am impressed with what many on this forum have accomplished. Yet, for me, it makes no sense to expend that effort unless it provides an advantage over the performance one can buy off the shelf. So I will always use jackets bullets in my .30 caliber guns unless I want to load up practice ammunition.

Thus my question to BOD. He has a great load so why screw with it?

Don

That's a ridiculous statement. The performance advantage is that I can produce very stable performing boolits all by myself, without depending on a business thousands of miles away and paying through the nose for them and use as many as I want as often as I want. I can fit that boolit precisely to my particular needs and desires, I don;t have to settle for what some factory guy thinks I need. They don't leave huge, "jellified", bloodshot wounds, they don't blow up because I smacked a twig enroute at 3000 fps and they tend to perform at least, if not more, reliably than the jacketed rounds I use. The limiting factor with cast is velocity, not performance. I will probably never find a cast load that works at 3000 fps., but I don't need a cast load at 3000 fps. In fact, the only deer gun I have that I aim for 3k with is a 250 Savage. Why do we always go for more speed with smaller calibers? To make up for the bullets lack of frontal area and penetration. I have a FN 100gr Cramer that I'm quite sure would work at 2000 fps, penetrate like all get out and, if I hit the right spot, will kill reliably.

Your post is an insult to this board in general and to the hunters here specifically. Just because you can't or won't do it doens't mean it won't work just fine. If you're hung up on sheer velocity, fine, limit yourself, but don't make blanket statements that hold no water with people who have done the extra work to find out that cast works just fine.

[Bret4207]

dverna wrote



I clearly explained that I just thought it would be "Kicks" to "pour" my own in addition to "building" my own. And yes, my jacketed loads do work perfectly for killing hogs the way I need them killed. Instantly!
You are perplexed because you assume I already knew that:





Actually, that was exactly why I posted here. I was asking if a cast boolit could do what my jacketed bullets do! You see, I was perplexed also and came here to find an answer.

But, don't be too hard on yourself dverna, the older I get, the more perplexed I seem to be!

This thread made me think, for the first time, about why lead boolit/twist rate determines whether or not a bullet will perform well. The fast twist at higher speed just shaves-off the outer layer of the cast/lead bullet, as opposed the to harder jacketed bullet's ability to "grip" and hold-fast to the grooves-n-lands of the barrel. Duuhh?

I feel kinda foolish. Just never took the time to think it out.

I'll probably just stick with cast boolits in my 45-70 and my .44 magnum lever-action Marlin.

As I said in my earlier post, cast can work fine when you do the extra work of determining what your gun and game need. It's not for everyone as the dissenting post displays. Don't let that get you down.

Re the twist rate thing- yeah, you sorta got the basic idea but it's a lot more complex than just that. Stripping/shaving doesn't happen all the time. It can certainly happen, but preventing it is a function of fit, barrel type and condition, pressure curve (dynamic fit), boolit design, alloy strength and probably moon phase and your deodorant choice. For all I know your hair color and religion, or lack thereof, may lay a factor too. Add in the RPM threshold theory and atmospheric pressure.......it can get complex.

[white eagle]

quite obvious this fella aint no handloader
just soon buy someone elses work
oh well

[dverna]

White Eagle,

I reload a lot. Likely more than most. Well over 25,000 rounds a year. I have two Dillon 1050's, a Dillon 650 and 550, a Star, and a Bonanza Co-Ax for metallic work. For shotshells I have a Spolar with 12 ga, 20 ga and 28 ga heads, Ponsness-Warren 800+, two PW375's, a MEC Sizemaster and a MEC Jr. I shoot very little factory ammo.

I have not cast for years as my time is too valuable. But I still own an H&G 10 cavity .38 wadcutter mold, two SEACO four cavity molds for the .45, a couple of other 4 cavity molds for pistol bullets and a mold for .30 cal bullets. I have two Star lubri-sizers. When I retire, or things get tough, I will start pouring lead again for pistol and "plinking" bullets; but, as long as I can buy "acceptable" cast bullets at a good price I will use purchased bullets.

I may get back into casting as I cannot find an accurate lead factory bullet for the 38-55 and 45-70 guns I am playing with. So I am "lurking" here to tap the knowledge base. So far I have learned a lot.

Bret,

I am not insulting anyone - I am stating facts as I see them. Reasonable men can agree to disagree. I do not hunt big game and have no urge to. If I did, I would use the best caliber and bullet possible. A cast bullet in the 30/06 will work but my little pea brain believes a premium jacket bullet will work better. It can be driven at higher velocity and delivers more accuracy with much less effort than presently achievable with cast bullets. Most of the world thinks so as well or there would be a market for premium 30/06 cartridges loaded with cast bullets. Also, I do not accept that getting the job done is the same as doing it well. Just because I can kill a deer with a .223 does not make the .223 a deer cartridge - see my point?

I am not completely closed minded. Which is why I find the work being done by some on this site with water cooling and producing bullets with two different melts interesting and informative.

View me as an"outsider" if you must. I do not believe any BS that is delivered just because it is in vogue or what most people wish to believe. So I will question (which is good and keeps us honest) when things do not make sense. You can view my questions as an opportunity to educate the ignorant "outsider" or you can be childish and get insulted. That is your choice.

Lastly, BOD has correctly concluded he should stay with the 150 gr jacketed bullet. No one has been able to provide a cast bullet/load that mets his performance needs ie. rapid kill shots on hogs with less than perfect shot placement. Need we say more?

Don

[waksupi]

Don, you need to do a lot more reading on this board. I would be embarrassed to post what you did. You need to inform yourself with facts, rather than hear say.

[mpmarty]

I've killed deer and hogs with a pistol. I see no reason to think a lead boolit from a rifle at twice or more the speed of said pistol would be inadequate to kill the same animals cleanly and quickly.

I've got deer, bear and cougar on my place as well as elk and carry a cast boolit load in my "working" rifle for the occasional shot I choose to take. The only varmint I use a different weapon on is/are the darn turkeys that flock to my place. Them I attack with a twelve gauge following the caveat of three Ss Shoot, Shovel and Shut up.

[dverna]

MP
No disagreement. A lead bullet is, as you say, "adequate": and I would use one if I had to. But I have better choices for the 30/06. I have no "need" to use a bullet I made myself. Many on this site take pride in doing that. Nothing wrong with it; and I understand. It is one reason I handload. But mostly, I handload to save money and tailor loads to my needs.

I have the common sense to admit my 12 ga shells are no better than factory STS's; my 38 target loads group about an 1" larger than factory HBWC at 50 yards. Now, my .223's are 1/2" better at 100 yards and I have proof, in this case, making my own ammo does improve performance

Nothing I have read demonstrates cast bullets are better (or even equal) to jacketed bullets in a 30/06. Let's go to what the OP was looking for.

BOD wanted a load - and I quote "Basically, I just wanted to know if my 30-06 could produce the bigole jellified area with a heavy cast bullet allowing me a little room to miss? " Telling the man he needs to be more accurate with a cast bullet and that cast bullets are "adequate" is NOT the correct answer in this case.

Sliver bullets are not "sliver" bullets. Cast bullets are NOT the best in every situation. With modern calibers (if we call call the 100+ year old 30/06 modern) they are more likely to be inferior. Will they kill game? CERTAINLY!! But so will a 30/30. How many will now say "the 30/30 is just as effective as the 30/06? Do you see how ridiculous this can become?

And so, as our friend BOD titled the thread, "Is the 30/06 cast bullet performance no better than the 30/30?" If one loads the 30/06 to 30/30 levels that appears to be a reasonable conclusion. If not, what am I missing?

Don (who is still inquisitive)

[waksupi]

Real life experience in the game fields with cast bullets. I live in grizzly bear country, and when I go into the brush, it is with cast bullets. I know they will work every time.

[Bret4207]

White Eagle,

I reload a lot. Likely more than most. Well over 25,000 rounds a year. I have two Dillon 1050's, a Dillon 650 and 550, a Star, and a Bonanza Co-Ax for metallic work. For shotshells I have a Spolar with 12 ga, 20 ga and 28 ga heads, Ponsness-Warren 800+, two PW375's, a MEC Sizemaster and a MEC Jr. I shoot very little factory ammo.

I have not cast for years as my time is too valuable. But I still own an H&G 10 cavity .38 wadcutter mold, two SEACO four cavity molds for the .45, a couple of other 4 cavity molds for pistol bullets and a mold for .30 cal bullets. I have two Star lubri-sizers. When I retire, or things get tough, I will start pouring lead again for pistol and "plinking" bullets; but, as long as I can buy "acceptable" cast bullets at a good price I will use purchased bullets.

I may get back into casting as I cannot find an accurate lead factory bullet for the 38-55 and 45-70 guns I am playing with. So I am "lurking" here to tap the knowledge base. So far I have learned a lot.

Bret,

I am not insulting anyone - I am stating facts as I see them. Reasonable men can agree to disagree. I do not hunt big game and have no urge to. If I did, I would use the best caliber and bullet possible. A cast bullet in the 30/06 will work but my little pea brain believes a premium jacket bullet will work better. It can be driven at higher velocity and delivers more accuracy with much less effort than presently achievable with cast bullets. Most of the world thinks so as well or there would be a market for premium 30/06 cartridges loaded with cast bullets. Also, I do not accept that getting the job done is the same as doing it well. Just because I can kill a deer with a .223 does not make the .223 a deer cartridge - see my point?

I am not completely closed minded. Which is why I find the work being done by some on this site with water cooling and producing bullets with two different melts interesting and informative.

View me as an"outsider" if you must. I do not believe any BS that is delivered just because it is in vogue or what most people wish to believe. So I will question (which is good and keeps us honest) when things do not make sense. You can view my questions as an opportunity to educate the ignorant "outsider" or you can be childish and get insulted. That is your choice.

Lastly, BOD has correctly concluded he should stay with the 150 gr jacketed bullet. No one has been able to provide a cast bullet/load that mets his performance needs ie. rapid kill shots on hogs with less than perfect shot placement. Need we say more?

Don

So you don't even hunt, have no experience with cast on game, are a relative nooby as far as cast, yet you are more than willing to give your opinion on something you have almost zero knowledge and truly zero experience on. Okay, I guess you weren't intending to insult anyone. You're merely ignorant or uninformed, certainly inexperienced. We can help with that if you'll simply open your mind.

[thegreatdane]

<-- unsubscribed this thread. I despise bickering. The arguments serve no further educational value.

I'm going to cast and load for target 30-06 as intended. I have no 30-30 brass or rifle.

Yay for new experiments!

[dverna]

Bret,

Thank you for patience and understanding. I look forward to learning as best I can. Things have changed from 30+ years ago when I had to cast bullets so I could afford to shoot. I find this forum very informative.

I do stupid things like buying rifles with no intention of shooting game. My goal is to see those big 45/70 bullets drop into <1.5" groups some day. Lord knows why as all I will ever do with the darn thing is shoot paper or steel targets. I am not done testing all the different bullets (store bought) yet but, so far, it has been disappointing. Thus my possible interest in getting the Lyman pot fired up after three decades of neglect. I know I can produce a better cast bullet than I can purchase.

Waksupi,
It is important that you have 100% confidence in your equipment. If that means cast bullets, it is the right decision for you. Maybe the right bullet for those bears is the right bullet for a feral hog - maybe not.

If grizzlies were a possibility, I would very little confidence in a cast bullet in the .30/06. My lack of confidence could spell disaster even if the bullet is good enough. BTW, I admire your capabilities both as a shooter and caster. Big animals that can hurt me scare the heck out of me. Here in Michigan, our most dangerous animals are the two legged kind but I still use factory bullets.

Don

[HORNET]

Some of you might do well to check out the Hunting With CB's forum further down the main index page. You'll find that cast boolits with a significant percentage of meplat pushed over 1800 fps impact velocity are VERY destructive, since there is NO JACKET to control expansion. The alloy and heat treatment (if any) can cause them to react as anything from a varmint boolit (creating the large jellified area) through into a range where they'll create a wound channel virtually identical to the best jacketed bullets.
And,yes, with cast in the .30-06 you can easily surpass .30-30 performance and match the .30-40/.303 British/7.62x54 Rooski heavy bullet loads.

[Moonie]

FYI with paper patched boolits of the proper alloy there is nothing a jacketed bullet can do that I can't. From controlled expansion to deep penetration, even both if I wish. :castmine:

[1Shirt]

Hornet speaks well, and I agree with him. Roy Weatherby got whole whoops of folks hopped up on speed. I met Weatherby once, and thought he was the most arrogant ******* I have ever met who was associated with guns. I asked him about shooting cast in a Weatherby rifle. He looked at me like I was less than pond scum, and said, "If you can't afford to shoot factory ammo in a Weatherby rifle, you don't deserve to own one", or words very close to those. I was in my 20's then, and in my 70's now, and because of that would never buy anything "Weatherby" because of it. Within range limitations, and with the right blt and alloy and at the appropriate vol, the proper cast blt. in an appropriate rifle will down anything on earth. One of the problems that I see with hunters today, is wanting to make that "Long range kill". Think that is fine for Prairie Dogs, but do not consider it acceptable for meat animals. IMO, cast for hunting is most probably best at 100 yds and under. Exceptions may be for the Sharps type rifles with heavy blts. There are always exceptions, but for me, cast shot somewhere between 1800-2200 with blts in the 30 cal bracket, is fast enough!
1Shirt:coffee:

[waksupi]

In my .35 cal. rifles, my point blank range is 225 yards, at around 2180 fps. And they kill quite well at that range, with a good wound channel. I am most likely being conservative on my hunting ranges.

[TCLouis]

I love this site because most of the posters are full of practical knowledge about shooting cast boolits and their performance on paper and game.

Once in a while a poster comes to a thread with limited knowledge and pontificates ad naseum much like a consultant.

[thx997303]

I can't understand why destroying so much meat is desirable to some people.

[Bigoledude]

GoodLordaMighty!!!

This inquiry sure took some turns I did not plan on.

What 200-225gr 30 caliber bullet mold has the best meplat? I'm gonna buy it, pour some, shoot some hogs with them and, take some cut-away photos of hogs shot with each. Is it legal here to post pics of dead, partially butchered, hogs and the damage done to them?

My prediction is I will enjoy the "choosing" of the mold. Then have my reloading podnah come over for the actual "pouring" process. Y'all just know, the "target-testing" will be great fun! But the "hog-shooting" will be by far, the grits!

A goofy old man asks a dumb question and....

thx997303 wrote; "I can't understand why destroying so much meat is desirable to some people".

I understand your obvious lack of knowledge concerning the anatomy of a hog since, there is probably not a significant wild hog population in Utah.

Only a fool would consider it "desirable" to "destroy" more meat than is absolutely neccessary. Did my post indicate to you that I am a fool to the degree that I have no regard for the destruction of the meat that I harvest?

Because we shoot them in the neck, there is not a whole lot of meat lost. Hogs are different than deer in that if you shoot them behind the shoulder, they are pretty-much gut-shot. Here is a link to a perfect example of what options are open to hog hunters when it comes to bullet placement

http://www.texasboars.com/anatomy.html

Shoulder-shooting hogs, even with a cast boolit would ruin more meat than neck shooting them with a jacketed bullet. However, losing a little meat is infinitely better than losing the entire hog. And, in my original post I explained how vitally important it was for these hogs to drop immediately when shot. Honestly, with the success we've had by busting the spine, I don't think we'd ever go back to shoulder-shootin 'em ever again. Even if they were out in open pasture.

Where would you instruct me to place my shots, my young friend from Utah?

[waksupi]

GoodLordaMighty!!!

This inquiry sure took some turns I did not plan on.

What 200-225gr 30 caliber bullet mold has the best meplat? I'm gonna buy it, pour some, shoot some hogs with them and, take some cut-away photos of hogs shot with each. Is it legal here to post pics of dead, partially butchered, hogs and the damage done to them?

My prediction is I will enjoy the "choosing" of the mold. Then have my reloading podnah come over for the actual "pouring" process. Y'all just know, the "target-testing" will be great fun! But the "hog-shooting" will be by far, the grits!

A goofy old man asks a dumb question and....

Look through the "Hunting With Cast Boolits" area. You will find lots of good ideas, and see the results.

[9.3X62AL]

Few shooting subjects generate more heat and less light than the venue of terminal ballistics. Internal ballistics = hard science. External ballistics = hard science. Terminal ballistics is at best a poorly-understood art form, whether the target is a game animal--steel silhouette--or armed felon. Small wonder we get all wrapped around the axle during these discussions.

I would love to be able to say with some degree of authority what it is that bullets/boolits do when they strike a living thing that causes them to keel over or **** out. If I could do that, I would manage that element to the exclusion of all others into The Next Wonder Bullet, sell the patent rights to military and police/sporting goods vendors and retire--hire Obama to wash my Ferrari--and water my house plants with Dom Perignon.

Alas, this isn't reality. Post-shooting results tend to show that shot placement is likely the most important factor with small arms vs. animated targets. The Fackler Followers are enamored with "tissue crush" analyses. Common sense and years of observation tend to show that the faster the projectile--the larger its diameter--and the heavier its weight, the better the job it does of crushing tissue/stopping aggressors/turning deer into venison. Still a truckload of theory and wishful thinking balanced against a pocketful of facts.

I think it is safe to assume that a wide meplat in and of itself is a good attribute of a hunting bullet/boolit. The "sharp shoulder" seen on Keith or Thompson semi-wadcutters may be another good feature. A softer point/front section may enable expansion, which could lead to larger wound channels. Of course, penetration can be compromised by expansion--so here goes another balancing act. And a lot of bullet performance depends on the bullet staying point-forward during target transition, which is conjectural at best.

The only "absolute" I'll sign off on is this--I want as many of those "positive attributes" as I can get in any bullet/boolit I use to harvest game or keep myself alive. Velocity, caliber, weight, expansion, penetration--I WANT IT ALL, AND I WANT IT NOW. All of these elements work at cross purposes to one another in varying degrees from shot to shot, so the equation ramifies apace. EVERY FIREARM EVER MADE IS A COMPROMISE BETWEEN FIREPOWER AND PORTABILITY, and in handguns portability gets a huge advantage at the expense of projectible power.

For the sake of the original poster's question concerning the 30/30 WCF vs. the 30-06 using castings, a velocity ceiling of 2000-2100 FPS is a reasonable top end that most of us can produce accurate ammunition for in our rifles of either caliber, given the limits of twist rates and conventional alloys and not going to the effort of paper-patching. In the 30/30 and the usual range of 150-170 grain boolits used therein, we are bumping up close to the caliber's capacity velocity-wise. In the 30-06, a 210-220 grain boolit can easily and safely be launched to the 2000-2100 FPS threshold, and remain stable/accurate in its usual 1-10" twist. That alone gives a 25% increase in potential power by virtue of boolit weight. (I'll spare us the formulae, they rely on squaring a ballistic element that is conjectural as to real-world parallels). Cast that 210-220 boolit as a soft point, about 30% point/70% shank. I'll bet it acts a whole lot like a Nosler Partition, with expanding nose and a harder driving shank that sustains penetration.

I would conclude that the 30-06 has the potential to out-perform the 30/30 significantly, cast boolit to cast boolit.

[Bigoledude]

Hey 9.3, what an informative and lucid reply. I'm glad you chose not to get any more technical with your post. Your opinion was perfect!

I think I may try to locate some 200gr or so cast boolits to try first. Then, if accurate in my rifle and, if they put the big Russians down like we're accustomed to, I'll buy a mold or two.

My sons are pretty good at hitting the spot nearly all of the time. I am certainly the weak link in this family chain.

[Bret4207]

One possible mould for you to try would be the excellent RCBS 30-180FN. It's well made, readily available and in my mostly WW alloy tips the scales around 190+ grs. It has a rather good game getting rep and I find to be quite accurate in rifles that like it. I would expect it to penetrate through and through on hogs while handily taking out the spine, assuming you hit your mark.

[pls1911]

Plenty of sage wisdom and commentary is contained in prior posts.
My two cents is simple.... place the boolit through the shoulders at spine level and no "jellymeat" shots are needed.
Search the forum for "sixty seconds.. short story". Nothing delivers a message better than result. Six texas pigs about as fast as one can work a lever from and OLD gun.
The "limited" 30-30 with moderate loads will drop anything in its tracks if you do your part and put the bullet where it counts. There's no excuse not to... If you can't, you need to stay home.

[Nrut]

Link to pls1911 excellent hog kill'n thread...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68752&highlight=sixty+seconds

[82nd airborne]

Don, your argument is not holding water. Your point of view is very much like mine, and I am not a hunter in the least (since my teens). I wish I could get the various game animals from my butcher, knowing full well some game animals are actually treated as farm animals like on the Texas farms/ranches, etc. There is nothing better to me than Catfish from a farm, for example. I've had some exquisit deer from a Texas ranch, having been shot in the head to insure a DRT (dead right there kill) by my brothers, dad, etc. That is not hunting in my book. But, if you want DRT, there is nothing better than your take on the subject. In other words, no sporting adventure whatsoever. ... felix

Would you care for some venison? My wife is in to hunting now for the past few years. I have been killing less so that we do not have more than we can eat. I see you live not too far away. I would gladly kill a legal deer, process it in my home, as I do all game, and meet you half way with it if you would like. I would like to be able to take a limit like I used to, but wont do it unless I know the meat will be used and enjoyed.
Aaron

[Nrut]

If you can't, you need to stay home.

BOD,
I took psl1911 statement as a "if the shoe fits, wear it" statement and not directed towards you..

[Bigoledude]

Nrut

You couldda left the post just for it's entertainment value? It was good. Really good!

[Nrut]

Now I am confused!!..:veryconfu
Oh well, I must say that I am starting to get use to that state as I enter the "golden years" ..[smilie=1:

[Nora]

I've harvested many Minnesota white tail with an RCBS 158 gr SWC and a gc in my Taurus 66 (old model) I've not yet recovered a boolit to tell the out come of impact. Nor have I had to chase it more than 50 yards (2 dropped dead on the spot) or had to deal with a lot of jelly. My thoughts is that you will have no problems what so ever on your piggies with cast. Load 'em, shoot 'em, and eat well.

That's just my $.02

Nora

[Bigoledude]

Nrut

My post was deleted. I assumed you were the moderator and you deleted it. Obviously, I was wrong.

Confused? I live in a perpetual state of confusion. Whoever coined the phrase "golden" years must have still been young when it appeared to be a good thing!

[waksupi]

Nrut

My post was deleted. I assumed you were the moderator and you deleted it. Obviously, I was wrong.

Confused? I live in a perpetual state of confusion. Whoever coined the phrase "golden" years must have still been young when it appeared to be a good thing!

I pulled your post. Read the terms of service about personal attacks,and take heed.

[Char-Gar]

These kinds of arguments remind me of the old "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" nonsense. Here is my point of view:

1. You aim your rifle at the critter.
2. You squeeze the trigger
3. The rifle goes bang
4. The critter dies
5. You eat the critter

If a rifle does 1 through 4, it is as good as any other rifles that does the same thing. Any hunter/rifleman worth his salt can do it with just about any rifle and either cast or jacketed bullets. A true sportsman won't fire until he has the critter dead to rights. His equipment just determins how he hunts and the range. Shot placement is the crown jewel.

[Doc Highwall]

Chargar, you left something out between 4-5, now that the easy part is over the work starts.

[MT Gianni]

The truth is that "Killing Power" is encircled about with many paths from the 125 gr 308 fired from an "06 @ 3000+ fps to the 50 cal rb. There are many ways to reach a point and some results end in a quick tracking job, some drt, and some a long trail or follow the birds 2 days later. Most of us know there are many ways to the center and neither the latest magnum nor the premium bullets are needed.

[felix]

Aaron, please PM your vitals to me, and I will see you on one of my excursions to Small Stone. Pat, my wife, works (at home here) for my brother there and we have to go to meetings once in a while, something like every six weeks or so. We can stop sometime at your house, or somewhere convenient for the both of us. ... felix

[82nd airborne]

PM in route, time now.

[Hang Fire]

Jacketed versus cast? By latter part of the 19th century, most big game in the US had been all but wiped out, by cast boolits. Nuff said.

[mpmarty]

I quit using J-words as I was sick and tired of removing the darn copper/gilding metal fouling. The only exception is in small bore like my 7mm remmy mag. It still only gets fed 160gr Nosler Partitions. I may shoot the 7mm RM twice a year and that's it. I've still got thirty of the Noslers out of a box of fifty I bought ten or so years ago. I've got H-870 powder that I'll never use up as that 7mm is the only cartridge I've got that uses it. Worst dang rifle I've ever had for jacket fouling was a 264 Winchester magnum in a stainless Winchester Model 70 "Westerner". Shot a few rounds and spent weeks cleaning it. What a pain in the *ss.

[geargnasher]

+1 Marty. I've been "copper-free" for some time now, haven't missed a thing.

Gear

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
GOOD THREAD.
I particularly liked 9.3X62AL'S POINTS, CHARGER'S COMMENT, & DOCHIWALL'S.

From experience & all I have read, I do not believe you will get the jellied effect from cast.
But you can get DRT.

HANGFIRE's comment echos one I have made before. BOOLITS WORK.
But it will not be as easy to achieve what you are looking for with cast as with jacked.
With jacked vel. is a bigger factor.
With cast bore dia. & medplat is a bigger factor, as well as alloy of course if you want to go that far in your quest.
If you stick with the .30 cal. it will be harder. WAKSUPI's beloved .35, or my favorite .44 would make it much easier to get the DRT.

[BOOM BOOM]

RATS,
I sidestepped your question, I would go with to 06. if that were my only choice.

[HiVelocity]

BigOleDude-

I, like you, like to drop em' as close to me as possible. Reading all the comments here is good information.

Where we hunt, the hogs are plentiful and sometimes hard to kill. We opted to try something different. One ol' country gentleman told us to quit shooting for vital's and concentrate on placing a bullet, any bullet, into the ear canal, or just behind it. He said, "Turns em' off like a switch" and they drop right there.

I've found this to be quite effective.

Just food for thought.

HV

[excess650]

BOD,
I believe you asked which 30cal had the widest meplat, and I think that would be the Ranch Dog 311-165RF designed for the 30-30. You could get that mold from Ranch Dog Outdoors site, or buy the NOE version with conventional lube grooves.

You might want to try casting softnose bullets, but if you're into spine/neck/head shots, it won't matter.

[Bass Ackward]

It's always fun to deal with people that have .... followed a path for years that has produced logically determined ideas. Particularly when it comes to cast. And of coarse this man was telling me how disadvantaged I was. To the point of calling me irresponsible for using cast on game when I had premium slugs that would bring out everything that caliber has to offer. I stayed quiet but he earned himself a shift at the berm.

We have a range where it is safe so that you can stand out by the target and spot. You are about 30 feet to the right and about 10 feet in front of the target. The guys out there have a radio. It was his turn.

So we put him out there to spot for for awhile cause his son was going to line in his new 375 Ruger. After he called a couple of shooters he was told it was his son's turn. At the first shot he radioed back and said he was being hit by chunks of mud. After 4 shots he cried uncle.

He walked back talking about the crack upon bullet impact, the absolute power at impact. That cartridge (what he thought was the 375 Ruger) was head and shoulders over everything else he ever saw. Nothing short of magic. None of the other guns produced anything like that.

Besides being covered in mud, he clearly experienced shock and awe. Then his son told him that he was shooting my Whelen with cast. :grin:

As they say in the commercials, "Priceless!"

[felix]

Yes, yes, a common trick I use for extreme entertainment is to find a beer can laying on wet Vertisol clay (gumbo, > 2000 grit) and shooting low enough to bring up a slab against the can. I have shot cans straight up, not often however, amounting to 80 feet or thereabouts. A sight to behold. Very impressive. The load and impact location together has to match the density of the clay just about perfectly to make this happen. Experience makes the number of rounds to do so half way reasonable. ... felix

[Bigoledude]

Hornet says that a cast boolit can actually produce a wound channel very similar to the wound channel made by a jacketed bullet. Thank you Hornet.

pls1911 says if I can't hit the DRT spot (spine area) every time that I (or you) should stay home. I suppose he means that I have no business to expect the kind of performance THAT I'M ALREADY GETTING!!!

Bret4207 tells me that I probably won't get that large, explosive wound channel from a cast boolit. But, goes on to say that it is probably large enough to accomplish what I need. Thanks for an honest answer Bret.

Many posters repeat "Hit them where you aim and the cast boolit performs perfectly". Wish I could but, just think how boring this thread would have been?

dverna, I think was treated badly just for having a differing opinion. And, he was truly trying to answer my question. Jeezum Peetes! Are we gonna treat someone bad because they think a different projectile is the one to go with?

In my original post and, in a subsequent post, I tried to make it clear that I needed the kind of wound channel that would destroy the spine area, even when I miss it by a couple of inches.

I NEED TO BE ABLE TO MISS BY A COUPLE OF INCHES AND STILL STONE 'EM!!

I NEED this performance for several reasons. I don't want my sons tracking a hog into very very thick and dangerous stuff. And, I cannot take the chance of getting a briar-scratch on my legs. That scratch could ultimately cost me that leg. I need the hog to drop INSTANTLY.

My .44 magnum Redhawk and Marlin lever-action shoot cast very well. My 45-70 shoots cast very well also. So, I think I will limit my use of cast to those three guns.

[geargnasher]

Though there is only one true guarantee in this life, you sure can't go wrong with any of those last three, especially if you have them shooting cast boolits the way you like and can trust.

Gear

[dverna]

BOD

Thanks for the kind words. I almost gave up on the thread due to the extraneous ****.

Many responders did not appreciate your needs - to have a quick kill with a less than perfect strike. For that, the factory bullet you are using seems to do the job and most cast bullets will not. Simple. You WANT a jellied would channel that most meat hunters do not want. You want to drop hogs with an imperfect shot and not die 20 yards away.

Some were arrogant enough to say if you can't hit them perfectly to stay home. I have never seen anyone who can make a perfect shot 100% of the time. (But I shoot stationary rifle targets - not something as easy to hit as game under field conditions - LOL.) Ignore them. I suspect you are a better shot than most who would have you "stay home".

Good luck and good hunting,

Don

[LongPoint]

Just thinking out loud here. Is it not believed that a flat nosed slug will travel through a target straighter than a round nose slug? If that is true, and I was looking for a wide path of destruction, to anchor the animal right there without concern of ruined meat ,as in a neck shot. I might be inclined to use a lighter 160 gr ish slug as in the Lee 309 160 R or maybe even better the 312 155 2R. At 2200 fps or a little more it might tend to want to swap ends a little on its way through the neck and produce the desired 'Lightening Bolt" effect. Not to mention the almost nill recoil . I don't know for sure, I'm just saying "Maybe"

LongPoint
Lookie there, youall got me going like a chatter box. I finally made a hunert. HA!

[NHlever]

I once shot a porcupine at very close range with a RN cast boolit. The porcupine flinched at the shot, and then took a few more steps up the branch he was working on, and contnued eating. The shot placement was very good just behind his leg, and about a third of the way up his body, but just didn't have any shocking power at all. That was the last game I shot with a RN cast boolit, and I can't comment on how they work at higher velocity in rifles. I have shot deer with flat nosed 30 caliber boolits, and have been very pleased with the results though I would choose a larger caliber these days. It is good insurance for a quick kill, and is a matter of choice, and not more money.

[geargnasher]

On second thought, how about just using a hand grenade?

Gear

[thx997303]

"Looks like about a 36 gauge Ned..." South park.

[HORNET]

I went back and reviewed the OP's listed requirements: he wanted to be able to shoot the hogs at ranges up to 200 yards and have them move less than 20 yards from where they were hit. Now, there are a lot of techniques for cast boolits that will give performance comparable to something like a Nosler/Swift partition j-bullet but I don't think that even those premium bullets will consistently meet that criteria out of a .30-06. When you factor in the likely reduced accuracy inherent in a cast boolit hunting load out of a conventional barrel, there is an increased impact location error that further reduces the likelihood of an actual DRT shot. Considering these factors, I do NOT believe that the OP's goal is consistently achievable with cast and I'm surprised that he can do it with most J-bullets. How many of the more experienced cast hunters have had a deer or hog that seemed to be perfectly hit take off? That's part of the reason many have moved on to the larger bore sizes for hunting.
LongPoint, That theory on getting the pointier design cast boolits to tumble has been tried. When it works and they DO tumble, there can be extensive damage and spectactular kills. The problem is that sometimes they don't tumble (for whatever reason) and all you do is drill a small hole through the critter which may puncture a vital organ and cause eventual death much later (see post #78). NOT a good idea in practice. The flatter-nosed boolits, like the 311440, will give very good performance over a fairly good velocity range but do slow down awful fast for use at longer ranges.

[HangFireW8]

When you factor in the likely reduced accuracy inherent in a cast boolit hunting load out of a conventional barrel, there is an increased impact location error that further reduces the likelihood of an actual DRT shot.

I heartily agreed with your post except for this part. The OP's expectations are hard to meet under all circumstances of sport hunting, DRT is not a thing anyone can guarantee with any bullet or boolit.

Why on Earth anyone would want to hunt with a rifle cast boolit load less than finely accurate, though, I don't understand. Does anyone here settle for poor accuracy just to take a cast flat point or hollow point afield? I don't think so. I've been handloading for 25 years but casting for only a couple, I'm already achieving same or better accuracy at any reasonable hunting range with cast boolits. (I'm talking deer class rifles here, not varmint).

I'll make the switch for hunting once I get a better selection of flat point and hollow point molds, but have zero expectation that I'll have to settle for less accuracy. Heck, casting has gotten two of my hunting rifles to shoot better than they ever did with jacketed bullets, and one of them is a 30-06!

-HF

[Larry Gibson]

I guess we need to establish "hunting" accuracy vs the best accuracy. I hunt quite a bit with cast bullets when the conditions fit my own self imposed restrictions. I also hunt with j bullets and also have self imposed restrictions on those. My restrictions have to do with the conditions and range at which I will take a shot. With either if I don't think (no "hail Mary" shots in my thinking) I can put the bullet into the heat/lung area I don't shoot regardless of the range.

With that being said a lot of big game, including pigs, are killed with 3-4 moa capable rifle/ammo combinations every year. If you can put the bullet into 6" at 200 yards (3 moa) then a lot of big game can fall to your rifle. The reason being is that 90+% of all big game are killed on the short side of 200 yards. Of that 90+% 80+% are killed on the short side of 100 yards. I've used numerous cartridges with cast bullets to kill deer, elk and pigs. My hunting CF Rifle cast bullet loads are almost always 2 moa capable to 200 yards. Most are pushed at 21-2200 fps which gives me a self imposed 200 yard limit. I do have 3 cartridges that I will used to 300 yards (they are the .308W with a 160 gr cast bullet at 2600+ fps, a .375 H&H with a cast bullet at 2350 and a 45-70 with a cast bullet at 2050 fps. The 1st has the velocity for 300 yards and the other two have the bullet weight and calibe to remain effective out to 300 yards. All 3 cartrdges out of the rifles I use are 2- moa accurate.

A cast bullet of correct alloy and design, especially if HP'd correctly, will kill very efficiently. Granted they do not kill as well as the same weight j bullet driven faster but within their limits they are very effective. I've absolutely not qualms about hunting deer, elk, pigs or bear with an appropriate cartridge using good cast bullets.

I do concur that the OP's requirement of "DRT" will be hard to guarentee with any shoulder fired rifle legal for hunting.

Larry Gibson

[HORNET]

HangFire, I wasn't referring to poor accuracy in hunting loads, just reduced accuracy as compared to a pure target load. With a target load, the only criteria is accuracy with actual velocity and any terminal performance being relatively unimportant. Hunting loads are, by necessity, a compromise with terminal performance being vital and velocity being critical to that performance. This usually requires a tradeoff (especially in the faster twist small bores) where somewhat reduced accuracy is acceptable in return for enhanced performance. Many feel that a 1-3/4" group at 100 yards at 2200 fps is better for hunting than a 1-1/4" group at 1500 fps, for example. The limits of the compromise must be decided by the individual based on the game species, expected range, and other factors.
As a reminder, the acceptable standard for sporting rifle accuracy stood at 3" groups at 100 yards for several decades. That has changed substantially, but not every rifle will hit MOA with every load.

[andremajic]

I find it hard to believe that velocity matters when hunting. The native Americans killed everything with bows and spears. I just remind myself this when I see someone pour more gasoline in the burn barrel. :D

(Random video of bow hunting elephants http://wethearmed.com/index.php?topic=11350.0)

[HORNET]

The muzzle velocity difference between hunting loads and target loads in the smaller bores (like the .25's, 6.5's, .30's, etc.) can easily be 500 fps or so. This is normally much less once you get up around the .35's or bigger. One of the reasons many cast addicts go to the big bores.
As far as the native Americans and bow hunting, I talked to a OLD Cherokee some decades ago who had learned hunting from his grandfather. He said that he'd been told that the arrow should be going into the deer when the feathers hit your hand. He also said that Grandpa had preferred just hitting them in the head with a tomahawk since you didn't have to track them anywhere. Quite a difference from most current hunting.

[Bigoledude]

The nostalgia, the enjoyment and the performance of shooting cast boolits obviously appeals to many. Including me!

The Cast Boolit" fraternity is looked-down upon by most of the folks in the shooting fraternity. When post after post is singing the praises of a boolit that can achieve 2 1/2-inch groups at 100 yards, we are laughed at!

Yet when someone questions the effectiveness of "cast" here, they are treated with insults and ridicule! We ought to be the last ones to act this way. We should know better than anyone how it feels to get treated with no respect for doing something differently.

One guy really slams a poster here about lack of facts. Then, all he offers is that he lives in grizzly country and uses cast and, that he has killed many animals.

One kid tells me that I actually "desire" to "destroy" meat. This same kid then attempts to ridicule someone about wanting a large wound channel and, suggests that he use a "36 Gauge". Unless I misunderstand him, a 36 gauge would be a very very small shotgun bore! I wonder if our little friend knows that shotgun gauges are determined by how many lead balls it takes, the size of the bore, to weigh a pound? The larger the number, the SMALLER the bore.

Another talks about how much game was killed in the past with cast boolits. The Mongols conquered all of Asia and, almost Europe and, killed millions of people with bows-n-arrows and swords! I'm just sayin...

I reply harshly to an arrogant post, telling me to stay home and, nearly got booted from this site. Might get booted now because of this post.

You know, if you read the posts from the guys offering genuine help, you'd be pretty impressed. The others are embarrassing!

[waksupi]

I'm working from practical experience. You apparently are not. My rifles shoot under an inch and a half, and kill well with cast. I, and many others have proved this many times. Until you have the experience, you have no frame of reference.

[Bass Ackward]

This site has changed. It used to be members (searchers) that shared their journeys with others so that others would know more things are possible and how you managed to get there. We WERE brothers. Not because we shoot lead. But because we traveled (walked) the same route.

Not all lead shooters are brothers any more than jacketed guys are. Because of the economic climate we are getting people that just aren't ready or don't want to be. They have no interest in the journey. Not only are they just interested in the destination, some want us to buy them a ticket on the Free Ride Express and then want a guarantee on what will be served during the trip.

Jacketed were created for reasons. And those reasons still stand. "Limits for cast" are not really with lead. The limits are with people. While everyone can certainly shoot cast when the stakes don't count plinking and paper. Some people should definitely not launch cast at game no matter how vast their jacketed experience. Or ........... how vast mine is either.

Four deer now hang from yesterday in silent tribute to what I have learned. Two of those are mine and two others are from others who benefited from my knowledge. I molded their bullets and loaded their shells. How I got there was I used gallon water jugs.

How do you know? If you line up 6 jugs (don't matter what happens after that for any animal on earth) and shoot the jacketed load you prefer into them and then study the containers. Better yet is to have somebody else shoot the jugs so you can watch up close. Develop a cast load that replicates exactly the same jug activity and you will have the EXACT same performance on game. It's just that simple. How you accomplish that can be more difficult and for that we have the search button. Are there other ways? Sure, but that's mine.

Now it's up to you to do the work. Don't want to work? Use the jacketed.

[NHlever]

This site has changed. It used to be members (searchers) that shared their journeys with others so that others would know more things are possible and how you managed to get there. We WERE brothers. Not because we shoot lead. But because we traveled (walked) the same route.

Not all lead shooters are brothers any more than jacketed guys are. Because of the economic climate we are getting people that just aren't ready or don't want to be. They have no interest in the journey. Not only are they just interested in the destination, some want us to buy them a ticket on the Free Ride Express and then want a guarantee on what will be served during the trip.

Jacketed were created for reasons. And those reasons still stand. "Limits for cast" are not really with lead. The limits are with people. While everyone can certainly shoot cast when the stakes don't count plinking and paper. Some people should definitely not launch cast at game no matter how vast their jacketed experience. Or ........... how vast mine is either.

Four deer now hang from yesterday in silent tribute to what I have learned. Two of those are mine and two others are from others who benefited from my knowledge. I molded their bullets and loaded their shells. How I got there was I used gallon water jugs.

How do you know? If you line up 6 jugs (don't matter what happens after that for any animal on earth) and shoot the jacketed load you prefer into them and then study the containers. Better yet is to have somebody else shoot the jugs so you can watch up close. Develop a cast load that replicates exactly the same jug activity and you will have the EXACT same performance on game. It's just that simple. How you accomplish that can be more difficult and for that we have the search button. Are there other ways? Sure, but that's mine.

Now it's up to you to do the work. Don't want to work? Use the jacketed.



Amen, Sometimes the journey is as much fun as the destination.

[white eagle]

the animal runs off after being hit because of their strong will to live
no bullet cant beat that

[45 2.1]

With that being said a lot of big game, including pigs, are killed with 3-4 moa capable rifle/ammo combinations every year. If you can put the bullet into 6" at 200 yards (2 moa) then a lot of big game can fall to your rifle. Larry Gibson

Interesting math there Larry......6" at 200 yards (2 moa) ......... it seems to go along with most of your posts too.

[geargnasher]

This site has changed. It used to be members (searchers) that shared their journeys with others so that others would know more things are possible and how you managed to get there. We WERE brothers. Not because we shoot lead. But because we traveled (walked) the same route.

Not all lead shooters are brothers any more than jacketed guys are. Because of the economic climate we are getting people that just aren't ready or don't want to be. They have no interest in the journey. Not only are they just interested in the destination, some want us to buy them a ticket on the Free Ride Express and then want a guarantee on what will be served during the trip.

Jacketed were created for reasons. And those reasons still stand. "Limits for cast" are not really with lead. The limits are with people. While everyone can certainly shoot cast when the stakes don't count plinking and paper. Some people should definitely not launch cast at game no matter how vast their jacketed experience. Or ........... how vast mine is either.

Four deer now hang from yesterday in silent tribute to what I have learned. Two of those are mine and two others are from others who benefited from my knowledge. I molded their bullets and loaded their shells. How I got there was I used gallon water jugs.

How do you know? If you line up 6 jugs (don't matter what happens after that for any animal on earth) and shoot the jacketed load you prefer into them and then study the containers. Better yet is to have somebody else shoot the jugs so you can watch up close. Develop a cast load that replicates exactly the same jug activity and you will have the EXACT same performance on game. It's just that simple. How you accomplish that can be more difficult and for that we have the search button. Are there other ways? Sure, but that's mine.

Now it's up to you to do the work. Don't want to work? Use the jacketed.


Well said, Bass.

Gear

[nanuk]

I find it hard to believe that velocity matters when hunting. The native Americans killed everything with bows and spears.


andremajic: of course velocity matters. try to take game by throwing the bullet at it.

I do think your point is Velocity is overrated? and I agree.

What I always try to compare is the maximum distance the same caliber will kill reliably with a solid double lung shot. Then I extrapolate, or is it interpolate, how a cast bullet would fit into that to calculate the range.

example. most will agree that a 180gr 30-06 Jboo will kill a Whitetail Buck at 500 yards. what is the velocity? then take that number and calculate how far the cast boolit is, when it slows to that number and I get a reasonable distance to consider.

does that make any sense?

[nanuk]

oh.. and an arrow with a sharp broadhead is a completely different animal.

one kills by cutting tissue for bleed out
one kills mostly by trauma of blunt force

[Bret4207]

The nostalgia, the enjoyment and the performance of shooting cast boolits obviously appeals to many. Including me!

The Cast Boolit" fraternity is looked-down upon by most of the folks in the shooting fraternity. When post after post is singing the praises of a boolit that can achieve 2 1/2-inch groups at 100 yards, we are laughed at!

Yet when someone questions the effectiveness of "cast" here, they are treated with insults and ridicule! We ought to be the last ones to act this way. We should know better than anyone how it feels to get treated with no respect for doing something differently.

One guy really slams a poster here about lack of facts. Then, all he offers is that he lives in grizzly country and uses cast and, that he has killed many animals.

One kid tells me that I actually "desire" to "destroy" meat. This same kid then attempts to ridicule someone about wanting a large wound channel and, suggests that he use a "36 Gauge". Unless I misunderstand him, a 36 gauge would be a very very small shotgun bore! I wonder if our little friend knows that shotgun gauges are determined by how many lead balls it takes, the size of the bore, to weigh a pound? The larger the number, the SMALLER the bore.

Another talks about how much game was killed in the past with cast boolits. The Mongols conquered all of Asia and, almost Europe and, killed millions of people with bows-n-arrows and swords! I'm just sayin...

I reply harshly to an arrogant post, telling me to stay home and, nearly got booted from this site. Might get booted now because of this post.

You know, if you read the posts from the guys offering genuine help, you'd be pretty impressed. The others are embarrassing!

Okay, lets calm down a bit. You aren't going to get "booted" for that. Some of the posts were meant in humor, but it didn't come across too well. So I'll try and distill this down even further.

If you want to duplicate the performance you get from jacketed with cast then you'll need to do a few things- #1- Choose a more or less heavy for the caliber boolit with a FN. A FN will always, always, always help in killing game. #2- Don't go real hard, something like WW alloy, maybe water quenched WW alloy should work at the close in ranges you are talking about. WQ WW tends to be a bit tougher than ACWW but it still retains WW ductile nature. Personally, I would stick with AC WW if I could. #3- You'll need to start low and work up to the point you feel you've reached max velocity while retaining enough accuracy over the reasonable max number of rounds. IOW, you can put maybe 5 to 8 rounds in a 2" area at 50 yards or so if that's the normal range you shoot at, I wouldn't think you'd need more than 3 shots, but 5-8 might be better. Use a typical rifle powder for the cartridge like 3031 in the 30-30. Slower powders like that tend to be more forgiving to the boolit than faster powders that mangle the boolit into a soggy lump of lead. Accuracy in max loadings tend to fall off if leading builds up.

Unlike me, you want a destructive load. You can do that, but it's not what most of us here usually look for. In the 30-06 you should be able to get a 180-190gr FN into the 22-2500fps area easily. If you can find a load that will hold it's accuracy for 3-8 rounds you should have something approaching the "jellified" effect you want. A GC mould is a must. You may want to consider paper patching as it makes things like this easier, if a bit more bother to put together. Search through some of the posts here and you'll find people shooting over 2500 fps in 30 cals. Some guys can do it with neckked boolits, others do it with paper.

Please understand that what you are looking for is not the normal thing cast hunters of big game look for. It took me a little while to get that through my head. I raise hogs, not boar, and know how tough they are. You'll get your "jelly" if you raise the speed enough, but getting there is the tricky part.

[thx997303]

One kid tells me that I actually "desire" to "destroy" meat. This same kid then attempts to ridicule someone about wanting a large wound channel and, suggests that he use a "36 Gauge". Unless I misunderstand him, a 36 gauge would be a very very small shotgun bore! I wonder if our little friend knows that shotgun gauges are determined by how many lead balls it takes, the size of the bore, to weigh a pound? The larger the number, the SMALLER the bore.


First thing, it appears that you DO desire to destroy meat. So, I'm unsure of how my age makes a difference.

Now, on to the 36 gauge.

That post was a joke. I was quoting a cartoon called "South Park".

The creators of south park ARE ignorant of how gauge definitions work.

In this particular scene, two ignorant rednecks (apt description) see a deer, and the one says to the other, "Look a deer! Looks like about a 46 gauge Ned." (I screwed up the quote in my first post.)

After saying this, he proceeds to shoot the deer with a bazooka.

In any case, I do understand that a 36 and even a 46 gauge would be a small bore.

I hunt with a 45-70 Levergun using cast boolits.

I shoot those cast boolits into little bitty 1" groups at 100 yards.

Stop insulting posters, and stop dismissing individuals based on age.

There are people on this board easily double my age who have less experience with cast than I do.

And further, I agree with Bret. It can be done, but you're gonna have to put in a lot of work and range time to get there.

[Jim]

:holysheep

[Bigoledude]

Hey Bass

Excellent response. I have worked up hand-loads for every gun you see in my signature. I shoot cast out of the .44s, the 45-70, and the .44 special.

You are absolutely right. It takes time and effort to achieve a good load that performs to our specific needs. From the beginning of this thread I knew this was a journey and, I was looking forward to it. Thanks for the encouragement.

thx997303


First thing, it appears that you DO desire to destroy meat.

You are wrong again my little friend! My "desire" is to drop these dangerous Russian boars in their tracks. Tearing up neck meat is not a large sacrifice for me but, it is still not my goal/ desire. It is a compromise I choose to make, that allows me to bring home ALL of the meat. If I lose one hog, can you imagine how much neck meat that would be equivalent to?


stop dismissing individuals based on age
I am not dismissing you based on age. I am dismissing you based on your arrogant reply to my post. That same arrogance that often plagues the young.


I was quoting a cartoon called "South Park".
And, I no longer watch cartoons!

Hey Bret

Another fine reply brother. The fact that I was expecting something different than most cast shooters want, was apparent to me from the beginning. My post was an attempt to avoid problems that you guys had already experienced. All of your responses were well taken and appreciated.

[Jim]

Bod, I didn't have a dog in this fight until you got sarcastic, especially toward THX. Your "little friend" is a Vet. He volunteered to die to protect my rights and freedom and I respect that.
You do like you want, I couldn't care less. But, I'll tell you this for sure and certain: You keep on like you're goin' an' you won't be able to BUY a friend on this forum.
I'm done.

[GabbyM]

RCBS 30-180-FN which with my mould cast just shy of 200 grains. Seams to kill way out of proportion to what I'd expect. Cast of an expanding alloy like 50/50 heat treated. A friend even used one cast soft and fired from a 7.62x39 custom bolt gun at sub sonic velocity to two steep a deer with a heart lung shot. deer are suppose to run off when shot through the heart lung region. Bullet penetrated all the way through and left a large exit hole. For hogs I’d cast from 50/50 then oven heat treat. Load at 1950 fps and go for it. If I had lots of range time to play I may try running the velocity up. In the 30-30 1900 fps with a 200 grain bullet is max load and you’ll have limited case life. With the big 06 case your pressure will be low and case life with proper sizing practice will be very long. The big bolt guns the 06 is chambered in won’t kick to much with those loads so will be easy to shoot.

I’m not a hog hunter but you’d have to prove to me those loads won’t drop hogs DRT.
It also would not surprise me a bit if after getting through the hide fat layer of a hog the 200 grain 1950 fps bullet would not be going faster than a 100 grain 243 bullet. I have two 243 rifles and would have total confidence in them with big game bullets loaded. I’d also have total confidence in my daughters 30-30 loaded with 1900 fps 200 grain boolits. It’s not like I’d be breaking any new ground using any of those loads

[Bigoledude]

Hey Jim

There is not a man in this fine country that appreciates, more than me, the sacrifice that our fighting men make FOR US!

And, I put my money where my mouth is by supporting many veteran non-profits. I live near New Orleans where the liberals pretty much rule. I make a point of thanking and praising every military man or woman I encounter in public. We have the "Washington Artillery" based very near my town. My wife and I feed home-cooked Cajun food to about 15-20 of them once a month.

I get phone calls often from those we've met-n-fed over the years. Many of them served here when they were in their teens and, are now married with children.

I have friends Jim. I don't need to BUY them! I did not come here looking for friends either. It wouldda been nice but, if I must take a rash-of-c**p from anyone here just for explaining my NEEDS.....

Want to know what most folks, including me, would have done when we realized that we may have inadvertently offended someone? I would have apologized profusely! I would have explained how I meant something else. Like "I didn't mean you were the kind of fool who would really have a "desire" to "destroy" meat". Your little friend instead, chose to twist the blade even more, rather than regret talking down to a man more than twice his age. If he wants me to NOT consider his age, maybe he SHOULD consider mine. It really is supposed to work that way, you know?

I needed a specific performance from a bullet. Where does that leave me deserving sarcastic junk from anyone? Read my initial post. I could not have been more polite and clear about my needs.

So, Jim I will sleep just fine despite the fact that you and your dog would rather not be chums with me!

By the way Jim, how much have you done for veterans lately?

Hey Gabby

Excellent points! I found a drawing of the RCBS 30-180-FN. That looks like what I've wanted all along. I wanted something like this, heavier with the big meplat. When I get my money set aside, it will be the next mold I order. What kind of accuracy are you getting from this round? Thank you for some good stuff!

Looks like I'm gonna have to glean from other posts here from now on. I have been relegated to the status of a LURKER again!

Asking questions and, getting treated badly will never go down well with me. It is in my DNA to respond in-kind. Never was very good at taking licks I don't deserve. Even if the disrespect comes from a 22-year-old veteran!

I'm done also. Just like to genuinely thank the folks who took the time to discuss and offer advice like I asked for. No kidding guys. Thank You.

Ray

[Jim]

.....By the way Jim, how much have you done for veterans lately?.....Ray

Oh, not much. I only go down to the local VFW post every Saturday and help the guys clean up the grounds and do misc. fix-it stuff on the buildings. And I attend the card shoot every other Saturday to help contribute to the finances.

Oh, and sometimes, when they're putting up the flags on the utility poles on Main St., I ride in the back of the truck with a coupla' guys and hand 'em the flags while they're up on the ladder.

And when Floyd has it's big July Fourth Parade, I link up with the guys from the post and help 'em set up the float and stuff.

I really don't do near what I wish I could do to help.

[fishhawk]

come on do i have to put this on my watch list now to? steve k

[thx997303]

BOD,

I'm going to consider the content of your posts (essentially speech, and as close to actions as I'll likely see), not your age.

Now, in a prior post you accused me of not knowing much about hogs.



I understand your obvious lack of knowledge concerning the anatomy of a hog since, there is probably not a significant wild hog population in Utah.


I ignored it, but now I'm going to adress it.

First thing is this. You know nothing of me, and are assuming way too much.

I spent a little time in TX, San Antonio to be precise.

I've seen plenty, and killed a few hogs. I plan on going down and killing a few more this next summer.

As to your "Need" to drop them DRT, well not knowing the actual problems with your legs, maybe you do, maybe you don't. But you did mention needing a blood trail in a post earlier.

This suggests to me, that you can walk, but would seriously prefer not to.

I can relate. I have serious problems with my knees, back, and a few other things myself. 80% disabled in fact.

However, there are few absolutes in life, and hunting is one of them.

Your bullet or boolit choice can no more guarantee DRT shots than your caliber choice.

Of course, I'm sure you have learned that already.

I would like to point out the south park joke, was actually said in response to Geargnasher's post. (Name of Ian, great guy. Dropped in to meet him on my way home from San Antonio.)

See, Ian had made a comment about using a hand grenade.

However, Ian isn't 22. Though I noticed, that you have mostly ignored his hand grenade comment, while lambasting me for making a joke, and insulting my intelligence.

Age is too convenient isn't it?

I guess I could make a few comments as to your behavior in this thread, but I digress.

As for offending you, all I can say is, oh well.

Unfortunately the desire to leave the world unoffended has led us down a path that will ultimately lead to the destruction of the constitution of this great country, and turn us into something rather undesirable.

As this is, I have dispensed with the majority of the care I had for not offending people.

So, if you think I'm going to worry about it, you are mistaken.

[fishhawk]

ok guys that enough time to lock this before it gets any worse....