My first castings have a hardness of 14bhn, how do I harden?

[chutestrate]

According to my Lee tester my lead has a hardness of 14bhn which puts my max pressure at @18800 psi on Lee's hardness chart. According to my manuals this puts me at the starting loads for .40 and I can't touch 10mm yet. I dropped some into water and they have the same hardness.
So I think I would like to harden it. I don't have access to wheel weights. I am going to have to buy something to alloy the metal with. Do I just buy some hard lead alloys and add small amounts until I my testing shows it hard enough?
I'm having a real hard time getting my head around how to harden my bullets.

[rattletrap1970]

If I'm not mistaken they harden over time also.

[RobS]

Welcome to the forum.

What "lead" do you have???? Where did you get it etc.

[357shooter]

Also, what are you going to shoot them in? If it's a handgun I'd suggest you not go by the Lee pressure recommendations. I'd offer the same opinion for rifle but I don't load/shoot one.

BHN 14 is good for magnum loads in some handguns, at least for some folks that accurately use lead that hard. My 357 magnum shoots best with 8-11 BHN and loses accuracy with 14 or harder. Not all guns are the same though.

And welcome to the forum.

P.S. the water dropped will harden.

[RobS]

P.S. the water dropped will harden.

Well it should anyway..................I'm wondering if he checked the BHN directly after water quenching the bullets.


The only other thing I could think of is the BHN tester is off and he as himself some 1:10 lead to tin alloy (11 BHN).

[chutestrate]

Thanks for all the replies. I did make the mistake of measuring the hardness after they cooled. I should have waited for a week or so. I have bought some lead from fleabay as it's the only source I have available, hence the need for the tester.

Is there a better way to test hardness? I still need to slug my barrels. I will be using these in handguns, .40 sw and 10mm.

[RobS]

You are working with one of the more appropriate means to testing BHN. There are other BHN testers out there and they all have their pros and cons etc. but consistency is the key to all of them.

Testing lead hardness is one thing though and using the Lee method for reloading is not an absolute. For example, I use a 300 grain plain base slug that is 11-12 BHN behind 30 grains of H110 in my 454 casull. If I looked at things the Lee way then there is no way this is suppose to work, but I manage 1-1.5" groups from around 40 yards with no leading. With a water quenched bullet I get the same accuracy but end up with a slight lead wash (not really a big deal though as it doesnt' effect accuracy). You are just starting out it sounds so don't limit yourself to one train of thought; experiement as there are many ways to get from point A to point B and your guns will tell you the best way to get there.

[lylejb]

First, Welcome aboard Chutestrate.

Second, Take the Lee chart as a suggestion / opinion. Don't take it as fact.

MANY things will effect your loads, hardness is just one factor.


as it's the only source I have available

NOT SO, If you look in the swappin and sellin section you will find someone with lead for sale much of the time. Also the vendor sponsor section has people selling lead. The prices are often better than fleebay, as well.

I would trust our fellow members much more than some unknown fleebay seller, too.

[lwknight]

Check the boolits after a few weeks. I bet they are a lot harder even air cooled.

[sqlbullet]

Hey chutestrate, looks like we both get around. (For those reading, this thread is also at 10mmtalk.com).

I second the comments hear about aging. They will be harder after a week, and harder still after a few weeks.

Still, 14bhn is plenty hard for 10mm as long as fit is good. Your plan to use 50/50 LLA/MS will work, as would the 45/45/10 method I referenced in the other thread. I have used both with great success in my EAA Witnesses. Just a week ago Saturday I
"unloaded" about 200 rounds of 10mm ammo. They were air cooled 175 grain SWC TL from a Lee six banger. Loaded them over Blue Dot, but don't have my data handy. I want to say about 9.5 grains. Also had some 205 gr RFN from a Mountain Mold. Those were loaded over AA#9. Again going from memory, I think the charge was 11.5 grains.

Both would have had a BHN of about 11-12. No leading from either. The 175 grain were tumble lubed. The were probably the older 50/50 mix. The 205 grain were felix lube.

[pdawg_shooter]

I used a BHN of 12/13 for full house loads in my various .357s with great results.

[chutestrate]

Hey guys. Thank you very much. I'll be trying out these loads soon. Just lubed a bunch, and waiting for them to dry now.

[376Steyr]

"...waiting for them to dry..." suggests you used Lee liquid lube on the bullets. Opinions about this lube, shall we say, vary. By all means, load some up and shoot them and see what happens. If you get less than satisfactory results, don't give up! Balancing lube type, alloy, and bullet diameter to get to the "perfect" load is all part of the game.

[HangFireW8]

According to my Lee tester my lead has a hardness of 14bhn which puts my max pressure at @18800 psi on Lee's hardness chart. According to my manuals this puts me at the starting loads for .40 and I can't touch 10mm yet. I dropped some into water and they have the same hardness.

The water dropped ones will cure harder than the air dropped. I measure BHN at 3 days and at 2+ weeks. Water dropped boolits show a lot more variation between those two dates than air cooled.

About the whole 90% of deformation thing...

When I started out I followed Lee's hardness guide to the letter and had no leading problems. Then I found out one GC load was .001" undersized but it had no leading problems at 2500 fps. Later I drove plain based .001" oversized boolits way over 90% deformation pressure and way over 1400 fps and had no leading problems.

Which just goes to say, things don't necessarily fall all apart if you don't follow all the rules.

Here is a fairly authoritative set of articles that say the 90% pressure rule is no rule at all. The basic evidence presented is that there are plenty of loads that break the rule and are both accurate and don't lead the barrel.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_3-3_CastBulletHardnessRequirements.htm

Here on Cast Boolits you will often hear the "fit is king" and hardness is less important. I have to agree with that. In one gun I have no mold that casts large enough for proper fit, though. I found that one brand of lube presented me with no lead fouling on the undersized boolits, while another did. Yet that brand of lube is well regarded, and works excellently with better fitting barrel/boolit combinations.

Clearly when fit is marginal, other factors become more critical, such as the choice of lube. By following as many rules as you can, you lessen the chance of remaining out-of-control variables from messing with you. But if you can't follow all the rules, try it anyway, it might work out OK.

-HF

[357shooter]

HangFire: Rifles according to folks (as I don't load or them) seem to make use of the Lee pressure suggestions. The original poster clarified that he's shooting handguns.

Lee didn't test in handguns according to the Lee manual, and the test results in my revolvers indicate they are totally different. I mention that because mixing rifle results with handgun results can be confusing to folks, well confusing to me anyway. From what I can tell the Lee pressure suggestions for accuracy should simply be ignored in handguns. YMMV

[cajun shooter]

If you get a reading of 14 with the Lee tester and you do it more than once with different pieces then that is the BHN. It matters not on what it will be fired in in the sense that will not affect the alloy BHN. In hand guns a BHN in that range is very close to Lyman#2 which has been the poster child of hangun alloy for years. Elmer Keith tested many loads while coming up with the 44 magnum and never fired a alloy with that much Hardness.

[koehn,jim]

Welcome aboard, I buy most of my lead from the Captain in Vendor sponsors not only is it great lead at a fair price but i like to support those that support the board. i prefer to buy processed ingots because of where i live, Calif has a law against lead ww so they are not available and there is a lot of waste from them anyway. I agree with the fact that they will harden over time so water drop and let stand or harden further in the oven, use the search function and it will describe it for you. Good luck and stick with it.

[Daddyfixit]

Welcome! Alot of good knowledge here..post a question and we'll answer the best we can
Just a thought on your alloy...Buy from one of our own in the swappin and sellin section
Your alloy may have some unknowns ( Zink, copper or ?) that could give high bhn and may have undesireable effects.
Load a few at a time and make notes, then the fun part ...go test um!

[Hardcast416taylor]

With the BHN of pure lead in the 7 - 9 area and straight WW in the 10 - 12 BHN area there really shouldn`t be any problem shooting these bullets at a 14 BHN. Age will definately make a difference in 14 days to 4 weeks time. I agree with looking at site sponsers for lead alloys you may not be able to acquire.Robert

[RobS]

With the BHN of pure lead in the 7 - 9 area (pure lead isn't quite 7-9 BHN; it should run closer to 5 or a bit less. Stick-on WW alloy does run in that 7-9 BHN range though) and straight WW in the 10 - 12 BHN area(in general this range is correct)

lllllll

[HangFireW8]

HangFire: Rifles according to folks (as I don't load or them) seem to make use of the Lee pressure suggestions. The original poster clarified that he's shooting handguns.


Well, sorry to muddy the waters.

To clarify, I've violated the Lee/Veral 90% rule in both rifle and handgun, as well as some other "rules", like I've shot undersized in both 45ACP and 45/70 and not only not leaded, but got good accuracy (with SOME loads).

So my point, it's not a "rule" just a guideline, something to shoot for but not to live by. If you can't get there with your current setup, try it anyway, who knows, it might just work!

-HF

[357shooter]

Well, sorry to muddy the waters.

To clarify, I've violated the Lee/Veral 90% rule in both rifle and handgun, as well as some other "rules", like I've shot undersized in both 45ACP and 45/70 and not only not leaded, but got good accuracy (with SOME loads).

So my point, it's not a "rule" just a guideline, something to shoot for but not to live by. If you can't get there with your current setup, try it anyway, who knows, it might just work!

-HFGood point. Conventional wisdom doesn't always work out very well. I don't know much about Veral's book or approach so your post is helpful, sounds like he agrees with Lee.

Right now I'm shooting a BHN 8 bullet in a 357 magnum revolver, about 30,000 PSI with no leading and amazing accuracy. That's not supposed to work, but it's the most accurate load that I've found so far.

Didn't mean to be a jerk to you. ttyl

[RobS]

So my point, it's not a "rule" just a guideline, something to shoot for but not to live by. If you can't get there with your current setup, try it anyway, who knows, it might just work!

-HF

Yep, different courses for different horses.

[chutestrate]

Thanks guys. I have a few days off so I'll try to post some results.

[badbob454]

You are working with one of the more appropriate means to testing BHN. There are other BHN testers out there and they all have their pros and cons etc. but consistency is the key to all of them.

Testing lead hardness is one thing though and using the Lee method for reloading is not an absolute. For example, I use a 300 grain plain base slug that is 11-12 BHN behind 30 grains of H110 in my 454 casull. If I looked at things the Lee way then there is no way this is suppose to work, but I manage 1-1.5" groups from around 40 yards with no leading. With a water quenched bullet I get the same accuracy but end up with a slight lead wash (not really a big deal though as it doesnt' effect accuracy). You are just starting out it sounds so don't limit yourself to one train of thought; experiement as there are many ways to get from point A to point B and your guns will tell you the best way to get there.

GOOD ANSWER ON THIS ROB I TOO USE WATER QUENCHED CLIP ON WHEELWEIGHTS WATER QUENCHED IN FULL , IM TALKING 60,000 PSI LOADS AND HAVE SATISFACTORY ACCURACY DONT LIMIT YOURSELF BY LEES CHART ... READ ABOUT ELMER KIETHS LOADS IN THE 44 MAG IT SHOULD EXCEED LEES LOADS BY A LONGSHOT ... BUT THEY WORK.. :coffee:

[jbelder]

If you get a reading of 14 with the Lee tester and you do it more than once with different pieces then that is the BHN. It matters not on what it will be fired in in the sense that will not affect the alloy BHN. In hand guns a BHN in that range is very close to Lyman#2 which has been the poster child of hangun alloy for years. Elmer Keith tested many loads while coming up with the 44 magnum and never fired a alloy with that much Hardness.

And in rifle loads as well with no leading! Fit In my opinion is the most important from my short experience in the bullet casting world.

[evan price]

I'll second, third, or whatever number we're on by saying don't automatically assume you need to be harder. The charts- even if they are absolute- are not like the boiling temp of water- exceed X PSI and you will fill the bore with lead. As you go up the scale you will START seeing traces of lead and I mean traces, tiny streaks here and there. You don't start getting serious leading until something is way out of whack.

Sizing your slugs is almost more important than hardness. I didn't used to believe this myself and spent a lot of time and linotype making crazy hard bullets for 9mm and 357 and still got leading. I was going to buy a lube/sizer and start using lube sticks or switch to moly coating. Then I slugged my bores and found my Sigs like larger bullets, like .357" 9mm to be exact. I sized them to .358 as an experiment and cast them out of "soft" lead in the 10-12 bhn range (where I had been trying for 18-22 bhn before!) and WOW, no leading!

I have shot boolits that I can scratch with my fingernail sized correctly for the bore and lubed with ALOX in .44 Magnum in 1200 fps loads with no leading.

Seriously, load 'em and try 'em before you automatically start asking for harder. In my small experience, in most "regular" handguns around 1200 fps or so, BHN 12 if sized correctly with a good lube is just fine.