300-mp...

[BCB]

Anyone using this powder (Alliant) in a 45 Long Colt?...

I would like to try it with the 45-270-SAA boolit, but can't seem to find any data--went to the Alliant site, but maybe I overlooked it?...

I use H-110 and Lil'Gun so I suspect this stuff would work also...

Thanks...BCB

[Bullshop]

I have been using it but not in a 45. I always watch closely for new powders that are of correct burn rate for my 22 CCM. Powders that will work well in the 22 hornet will be about the same but the ccm has yet smaller capacity.
I tried the 300mp and found it to be possibly the best for my purpose. One reason is that it meters so well, very important for a case that only holds about 7gn powder.
Judging by my notes on other powders in this small case the burn rate of the 300mp will fall between H110 and LIL-gun. I am not yet sure if it will show the characteristic on H110 only working well within a narrow pressure window at the top end. So far it has not, at least for me in my application.

[BCB]

Thanks for the reply Bullshop...

I think if since I have H-110, Lil'Gun and now 300-MP, I probably have 3 powders that are so close to each other that I might not be able to see an advantage to it!!!

But, I do get better velocity with the Lil'Gun and a bit of a different recoil over the H-110. Or at least I perceive it to be that way. (But I do have an imaginative mind from time to time!!!)...

So, maybe the powder companies just "got me again" with a new and improved powder!!!

Guess I will see when I get some data. I did e-mail Alliant...

BCB

[Bullshop]

The 300mp will indeed be an improvement over h110 if it performs as well but has a wider pressure range at which it will do so. That is the big bugaboo with h110. It works extremely well at its optimum pressure, hi end, but that pressure window is very narrow.
Outside that window it is poor.
I have not yet burned enough 300mp to know, yet.

[BCB]

The 300mp will indeed be an improvement over h110 if it performs as well but has a wider pressure range at which it will do so. That is the big bugaboo with h110. It works extremely well at its optimum pressure, hi end, but that pressure window is very narrow.
Outside that window it is poor.
I have not yet burned enough 300mp to know, yet.

Won't argue that point Bullshop. I am looking forward to trying it in the 45LC. I see data for the 357 Magnum, but that wasn't my intention--yet, it will still get tried!

I have used much H-110, but as you indicate, maximum seems to be best and that is tough on my hand when it comes to recoil. That is one reason why I tried Lil'Gun--it seemed to help...

Who knows?...

BCB

[RobS]

BCB: Let us know how it goes as I would like to use a powder that is more flexible than H110 and will not use LilGun due to the forcing cone erosion issues around the outer edge I had with two revolvers. They were hit with it but thankfully not bad as I caught it before it became a big issue. For now with my PB bullets it's 2400 for upper mid and H110 for near max/max loads.

[Mal Paso]

I tried it in 44 Mag 4 and 6 inch revolvers and found it too slow to be of use. For a 240g bullet ( Jacketed ) Alliant said 25g of 300-mp will get you 1570 fps. I am assuming 8 1/4" sealed test barrel as this was listed for Pistol. 25g with the 240g J-Word got me 1275 from a 6" S&W 629. It took 27g, with no room left in the case, and a proper fitting Boolit to just touch 1500 fps. Slower than H110 it's got a Much More Impressive Flame even the shooter can see in daylight.
BABore had some intelligent comments on 300-MP http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=90510

[Bullshop]

Maybe with heavier boolits in the 44?
For me though in the 22 ccm it is a top performer. I bet it will do well in the hornet also.
Another powder that has the correct burn rate is Alliant Steel but it meters poorly

[Mal Paso]

Maybe with heavier boolits in the 44?


Or a longer barrel. Alliant's Consumer Service Manager got 1525 with a 270g bullet in a 14" 44 Contender but underperformed by 75 fps in his 7 1/2" Freedom Arms. That was 22g behind a Speer 270g GDSP Alliant's Manual says 1400 fps.

I think the listing as a 44 Mag Pistol Powder is a bit misleading but I learned a LOT.

I've got 2 pounds left I think I'll save for July 4th and night shoots.[smilie=w:

[BCB]

Well, I got my reply back from Alliant today answering (?) my question about 300-MP with the 45-270-SAA boolit (283 grains)…

He indicated that 300-MP was a bit slower than H-110 but that test development had not been done with this boolit or it seems, not many boolits at all…

I think that is lousy when a company brings out a powder and doesn’t have sufficient data for it for all the applications it can be used with efficiently…

I am looking at the article in Handloader #264 and it does list a load of 24.0 grains of 300-MP for the 45 LC…

Guess I will check H-110 data and sort of compare, but it seems that somewhere in the 22-24 grains would be in the ballpark. I presently am shooting 22 or 23 grains with the 45-270-SAA boolit. Both loads are accurate, but recoil is rough! I was hoping the 300-MP might be a bit easier on the hand/wrist…

Being slower than H-110, I would think that that data would work for 300-MP. On the conservative side of course…

I also read the thread/link that Mal Paso posted…

Any other thoughts?...

Thanks…BCB

[BCB]

Well, I just got back from my range where I did a bit of testing with the 300-MP powder in the 45 LC using the 45-270-SAA boolit…

So far not so good—but I have another ½ dozen rounds to try tomorrow before I briefly write my results…

But, I have included a picture just to show a bit of an issue that might be with the 300-MP and a non-magnum primer—the powder charge was 23 grains…

The velocities for the top 2 boolits that hit where they should have, are still less than 900 fps—more later on that. The one that hit 3”+ below the aim point went through the Chrony at a blistering 170 fps! It didn’t even cut the paper cleanly as one can see the imprint of the meplat. I put my targets on a piece of cardboard so I get good clean cuts with the boolit. The top two look as they should…

The distance was 50 feet...

More later…

BCB

[Mal Paso]

BCB
I just pulled out a 45 LC case. Same length as the 44 Mag. I don't think you can fit enough powder under that 270 to make it Really work.
What are you loading for? I am assuming Redhawk or better.
I can't say for sure but it was my impression that, in the 44 Mag Revolver, I never reached the pressure to get good combustion.

[BCB]

Mal Paso,

I am shooting them in a Blackhawk...

That was a 23 grain load, but the primer is the problem--I think...

That is what I am going to check tomorrow...

So far, the results show the powder to be slower than H-110...

You may be correct about case capacity...

I do still have room with the 23 grain charge, but the primers look a bit iffy. But, I am not sure I am a fan of flattened primers as a pressure indicator...

The recoil is still there!!! I think Lil'Gun has produced the least recoil so far for the full-throttle loads...

A few more rounds tomorrow and I will have a better idea...

BCB

[Mal Paso]

At 27g which is maximum case capacity in 44 Mag with the Keith 429421 the cases slid out of the cylinder with ease. I've had Much harder extraction with 10g of Titegroup. No flat primers even with Federal 150s.
As to primers no ignition problems although spreads were inconsistent. I ran Federal 150s and 155s with no real difference between them in bullet speed or spread. Wolf primers were faster but that was a different 4" gun and doesn't count. May just throw some loads together with CCI 350s just to see.
Best of Luck!

[BCB]

Mal Paso,

I can get 28.3 grains of 300-MP to the base of the 45-270-SAA. BUT, there ain’t no way I am going to that level!!!...

I think I will try to achieve the same velocity as what the 23 grains of H-110 is producing and then I will get an idea as to the speed of this powder…

I put a picture on this just as a bit of info. I measured the depth of various boolits for various cartridges and then cut the case to that length. I was doing this to get a good idea as to the amount of Trail Boss to put in a case to the base. It worked well…

So, I used the 45 case (unfortunately it didn’t show up well in the lower left corner) to see how much 300-MP will fit to the base of the boolit…

More later,

BCB

[BCB]

Well, here is what I came up with concerning the 45 Long Colt, the 45-270-SAA and 300-MP. I put in a bit of H-110 and Lil’Gun for comparison. Al shot from a 6” Blackhawk…

H-110…22 grains…CCI-350…1148 fps
H-110…23 grains…CCI-350…1218 fps

Lil’Gun…20 grains…CCI-300…1157 fps

300-MP…22 grains…Tula…881 fps
300-MP…22 grains…CCI-300…875 fps
300-MP…22 grains…CCI-350…1063 fps

300-MP…23 grains…CCI-300…921 fps
300-MP…23 grains…CCI-350…1138 fps

300-MP…24 grains…CCI-350…1148 fps

Looking at the fps it appears that 300-MP is about 2 grains slower than H-110 and about 4 grains slower than Lil’Gun at least with these combinations…

I did not get any kind of accuracy that I get with H-110 or Lil’Gun…

It burns dirty—maybe not enough pressure?...

There is a nice fireball with each round fired!...

And smoke comes out of the cylinder for about 15 seconds after it has fired—I have no idea what that means…

I sure hope it does better in my 357 or 44 Magnums…

Maybe this is why Alliant didn’t have any data for this particular cartridge and a boolit in the 280+ weight…

Good-luck…BCB

[felix]

Looks like MP300 is just a retail sales name for a powder that was out of spec for something required by somebody's military. In the old days that stuff would have been sold off for merely a cost re-coop to someone like Bartlett. ... felix

[BCB]

Looks like MP300 is just a retail sales name for a powder that was out of spec for something required by somebody's military. In the old days that stuff would have been sold off for merely a cost re-coop to someone like Bartlett. ... felix

felix,

You may indeed be correct on those comments…

I must admit that this 45LC project, although minimal, with this powder has been pretty discouraging…

Yet, I will probably try it with the 357 and 44 magnums…

Maybe someone else will have better results with the 45 and post them…

BCB

[mroliver77]

I have one jug of wc820 that seems to burn very slow and is hard to ignite properly.The Lee 255rf puts a lot of drive band in the case and it is snug with a firm crimp. With standard primers I get wildly difering results.Some rounds will burn well and everything feels right. Others will make a totally diferent sound more of a throaty boom than the crack of H110. The boomers are accompanied with huge fireballs and much more smoke leaving much more unburnt (or partially burnt?) powder in the barrel. I tried Wolf mag primers and it helped a little. I went to CCI 350 and all was well then. I was eying the 300mp but think I will hold off on it.
Jay



It burns dirty—maybe not enough pressure?...

There is a nice fireball with each round fired!...

And smoke comes out of the cylinder for about 15 seconds after it has fired—I have no idea what that means…

I sure hope it does better in my 357 or 44 Magnums…

Maybe this is why Alliant didn’t have any data for this particular cartridge and a boolit in the 280+ weight…

Good-luck…BCB

[Mal Paso]

Alliant says 300-MP has lot to lot consistency so we don't have to worry about it suddenly getting better.:p

BCB
I don't think you want to go to the pressures required to burn 300-MP well. I did some more testing today with the 4" Redhawk as these are +P+ Ruger or Better Loads that I won't shoot in the 6" S&W 629.

44 Mag with a 250g 429421 Sized .431

27g (full case) 300-MP Fed 150 1402 fps
27g (full case) 300-MP Fed 155 1410 fps
27g (full case) 300-MP CCI 350 1424 fps today
so I'm starting to get good combustion and speed only 22 fps between standard and mag primers but .....
26g (full case) H110 Wolf KVB-45 1444 fps

or Elmer's Load and my favorite
22g 2400 Wolf KVB-45 1494 fps.

300-MP seems to do poorly at pressures less than the 8 1/4 inch single shot gun it was tested in.

[BCB]

Alliant says 300-MP has lot to lot consistency so we don't have to worry about it suddenly getting better.:p

BCB
I don't think you want to go to the pressures required to burn 300-MP well. I did some more testing today with the 4" Redhawk as these are +P+ Ruger or Better Loads that I won't shoot in the 6" S&W 629.

Yep, I agree…

I am sure I could go a couple more grains in the Blackhawk, but I don’t think I will gain anything over Lil’Gun or H-110—I prefer the Lil’Gun at this time…

The recoil is beginning to get noticeable. Ain’t necessarily recoil-shy, but why do it?

As the saying goes: “Every day I got up and hit myself over the head with a hammer—I had a headache all day. Then one morning I forgot to hit myself over the head with the hammer—what a nice day! So after that, I quit hitting myself over the head with a hammer!”…

I think recoil is similar…

But, I suppose I might give 300-MP a try in my Security-Six 357 Magnum and my Super Redhawk 44 Magnum. Who knows, it might be almost a miracle find! (I doubt it though)…

And so it goes…

BCB

[Mal Paso]

BCB
It's all good work though. I certainly learned a lot about powders and Alliant. Ben in customer service seems to be a nice guy and did some test shooting of 300-MP on his own time and it sounds like he paid for the bullets . BUTTT he had no more information than I had and knew nothing about how the powder was tested. I think his access to information is limited and he is overloaded enough that the hard questions get dropped. Makes this forum even more important.
300-MP may have been an existing powder or a salesman's idea, I'm just glad we have the people down on the production floor cranking out 2400!

[Bullshop]

The 300mp turns out to be perfect for my 22 ccm. I hope to stock up before it is gone.
Last night I loaded some in 22 hornet cases and Lord willing will try them later today.
It should be very good for that too.

[Mal Paso]

The 300mp turns out to be perfect for my 22 ccm. I hope to stock up before it is gone.
Last night I loaded some in 22 hornet cases and Lord willing will try them later today.
It should be very good for that too.

I'm really glad it works for you and I'm Not knocking the powder. Just it's listing as a Magnum Pistol Powder when it's unsuitable for Most of That Market.

[Bullshop]

It is very interesting to me how these powders can act differently and show an out of character burn rate when used in a small volume case.
One extreme case for me was Hodgdons Longshot. In its assigned position on the burn rate chart it too falls into what I would call the magnum pistol class. I have see others mention using it as such with the results you would expect from its assigned burn rate number. However when used in the tiny 22ccm case it acts as a much faster powder.
Repeated testing yielded the same results, it burns more like unique in this application making it totally inappropriate.
When ever I see a new powder in the mag pistol burn rate class I try it always looking for something better for my beloved small bore rifle cases. This one is good for me.
Now I am headed out to see what it will do for the hornet.

[Bullshop]

Preliminary test with 300HP in the hornet are good. It was too late in the day to chronograph so I just worked on the load to get a feel for the powder in the small hornet case.
As I had guessed it seems just about perfect in burn rate for the hornet too. By that I mean it topped out in volume and pressure at the same point, perfect.
Max load was 12gn at 100% density. At 11.5gn there was no noticeable flattening of the CCI SP primers but at 12gn there was. That would indicate about a max pressure for the hornet. I started at 9gn and it was shooting about 3" higher than the control load of 10gn H 4227. As the load was increased the groups came down and at the 11.5 and 12 gn loads it was back to the same zero as the control load. I did expect the slower starting loads to impact higher than the max loads.
I am now anxious to see what the chronograph has to say. The 300MP had a sharper crack to its report than did the 4227 so, well I can hope.
It may not be a good choice for what Alliant is marketing it for but for my use in small bore small capacity cases it seems very well suited.
I doubt that as Felix said is was a blooper because there are three MP powders available. The 300 is the fastest then there is one for mid size rifles and one for mag rifles.
Just to enforce what I said earlier about powders working somewhat differently in these very small cases I notice in the Hodgdons loading book, the one that is a loose leaf binder type the in thier data for the 22 hornet the 4227 and the h110 have reversed roles. The 4227 is listed on all burn rate charts as quite some slower than h110 but in the hornet case with the 53gn bullet they show 4227 giving higher pressure with a lighter charge than does h110. Go figure!