What is your procedure

[roysha]

for developing an accurate cast bullet load for a rifle. I have a system I use with jacketed bullets but there are so many more variables with cast bullets I don't really know where to start.

I am trying to get a load worked up for my REM 799 in 7.62x39 using the Lee 312-155-2R mold, W-W cases, BLC-2, and WLR primers. I'm not having much luck. Groups are on the order of 2"-4" at 50 yards.

This rifle was purchased brand new by and except for the possibility of a factory test round, it has not had any jacketed bullets through it.

Before I started with the load tests I thoroughly cleaned with Sweets, Hoppes and then JB Bore paste. I feel the bore is clean. I realize it probably will lap a bit smoother as I shoot but I am not getting any leading and I am near maximum recommended powder charge.

So my question is:
Where do you start your change and what order do you follow, alloy,(harder or softer) size (if so how much), lube, powder, primer, seating depth, crimp, bullet style entirely, ???

At this point I am not concerned with feeding from the magazine so except as it pertains to the relationship to the throat, seating depth is not an issue. I just want it to be reasonably accurate. My description of reasonably accurate would be in the neighborhood of 1" at 50 yards for 5 shots.

[pipehand]

Have been shooting the original version of that boolit, from an iron mould from NEI, for about 20 years. First shot in a Chinese SKS, and later in a Ruger 77MKII. Mine cast significantly heavier than 155 grains- actually 167 with lube and gascheck. I size to .3105, heat treat @455 degrees and quench. The cases are IMI, sized in a Redding die, belled with an RCBS expander, primed with WLR's. I use a COAL of 2.200" and crimp with a Redding taper crimp die. I've settled on a powder charge of 22 grains of Reloader 7. I've never run that load over the chronograph, but it shoots +/- 1" at 100 yards. The Ruger's bore is .308, but the throat is set up with a taper to accept bullets of the standard .310 military surplus persuasion. At the overall length I use,the bullet is engraved by the rifling, and chambered rounds will pull the bullet upon unloading.
Are you using the conventional lube groove version of that bullet, or the one for the LLA?
What are your groove and throat dimensions? What are you sizing to? Have you tried anything besides near max loads of BL-C(2)? How does the rifle do with jacketed bullets? What lube are you using?
As far as procedures, generally I start low and light and work my way up. Try 6.5 grains of Red Dot behind that bullet as fat as you can get it lubed and gas checked. Try faster powders than BL-C(2), like 2400, 4198, and Rel-7. That 799 is basically what Interarms used to import as their Mini-Mark X, so it should be a shooter. Good Luck.

[roysha]

Thank you for your response.

Perhaps I to make my question a little clearer; I am not particularly interested in specific information regarding that individual example, but rather a generalized load work up methodology using cast bullets in rifles. For example, how would the change from, say, 50-50 ALOX to Carnuba Red effect performance, if any? How about +/- .0005 in bullet size or a harder or softer alloy? What would be the first thing you would change, the second, etc? How much effect does one change have relative to something else, as in, does changing the alloy have a greater or lesser effect than changing the size?

I have several other rifles that I want to "play" with, in particular a CZ Hornet using Ranch Dogs TLC225 50-RF and a WIN M94 using the 323 170-RF but without a plan of attack, I'm shooting in the wind. Pun intended.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've been researching this myself. I've got Lyman's 311410 which makes 130gr RNs. Haven't loaded any in 7.62x39 yet, but it's on my list of things to do...

My research and first attempts are going to be the 30-06 in an '03 Springfield with 175gr bullets. Generally, what I've learned from my research is:

Use neck-sized or partially (1/2 or less) full-resized brass. (Loads are light, so no need to overwork the brass, and "fitted brass" generally shoots more accurately.)

Use an appropriate expander for the neck. (Lead bullets need to be carefully sized, so you should also match the expander to only be at or maybe .001" narrower than the bullet. This way it will hold the bullet, but not squeeze it down and ruin the size-to diameter.)

Size the bullet for the diameter of the chamber throat.

Try to use a bullet design with a bore-riding nose section.

Faster-burn-rate (than full loads), single-base, typically-extruded powders seem to work best along with a reduced load.

Match the alloy to the velocity. (WW=1600, heat-treated OR Lino = 2000 or a little more, and heat-treated Lino = 2400+)

I'm starting with medium-low velocity loads (1600fps). I'm using WW+2% tin. I haven't decided on a powder or charge yet, but they wouldn't correlate to your 7.62 work. I will say that Bl-C2 is a ball powder and fairly slow for the soviet round. I think you need to go the other way. 2400 or Unique would be good places to start.

[HangFireW8]

Perhaps I to make my question a little clearer; I am not particularly interested in specific information regarding that individual example, but rather a generalized load work up methodology using cast bullets in rifles

I started by slugging the bore with three slugs, leade, through, and muzzle. Measure the groove and land diameter on all.

I cast with one of three alloys (generally speaking), either soft lead with a little tin, Wheel Weights with a little tin, or my hardest WW alloy + some monotype or Lino + some lead shot, water dropped. This corresponds to soft, medium and very hard. For rifle I generally use the Medium alloy unless looking to break speed records. If the boolit has a gas check, is properly sized, and not started too fast, one can generally push it to 2200 fps without a lot of extra hardness.

I measure the boolits cast and compare to the barrel slugging. If I need to size I generally shoot for .0005" to .0010" over groove diameter. I'll shoot up to .0030" over for soft and medium alloys at low and medium velocities. Often this means no sizing is needed.

I generally lube only one or two lube bands, the bottom ones. If I've never loaded for the rifle before I'll go with two, realizing I'm giving up a little bit of accuracy. If all goes well I'll drop back to one. I use a lubrisizer for rifle.

For loading, I generally seat the boolit into the lands just a little bit. This may or may not mean I can magazine feed. Some guns like Marlin 45/70 or 444 have definite magazine feed constraints and you have to choose magazine or single feed.

For powder charging, with suitable cartridges I start out with "The Load" http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html and/or typical amounts of 2400. I have a bunch of 4895 and if I'm interested in velocity will do a 2/3 to 3/4 throttle load of that.

Sizing is important. I use Redding "S" or Competition dies and size only enough to get .001" of tension on the boolit. I put a sizing ball in the die and it just barely drags over it. I like to do this because if I get a case that doesn't drag, or drags real hard, I can set it aside and figure it out later, it is not the same as the rest. A lot of folks that use button dies (Hornady makes copies now I believe) don't use the expander because its technically not necessary, but they are denying themselves information about outliers in their brass collection.

If necessary I use Lyman "M" dies to expand the mouth a little, and use the seating die to iron it flat again. Keep in mind that if you use a conventional FL or Neck die to resize, and then expand and flare with an M die, your brass life will be short. Yes, even with Neck dies because they neck still goes through 100% of the sizing stress, only the shoulder gets a break.

With button sizing dies, the brass comes out sized only as much as it needs to be (assuming you have the right sized button).

Which lube to use is a religious issue. I've tried SPG and NRA 50/50 and LLA and LLA thinned. All worked very well within their parameters. I only recommend using a lube "suitable" for what you are doing, that is, avoid pistol lubes for rifle, that sort of thing.

That is what has been working for me, other things will work for other people. Hope that helps.

-HF

[geargnasher]

My general approach with rifles:

1. Set your primary goal for the rifle, all else follows from that. (Target accuracy, hunting performance, plinking economy, or a combination).

2. Slug the bore and impact slug the chamber/throat as Hangfire mentioned.

3. Select a boolit mould design (of the weight range dictated by the primary goal) which will fit the throat and/or function the best. Again, if it's a bench gun repeater it can be single loaded, if a hunting load it needs to feed and be crimped to hold up to handling/being stored in a magazine under recoil. Often there are compromises.

4. Select a sizer die based on barrel slugs and throat size.

5. Select/obtain/modify/make a die set that will work with your gun's dimensions as well as the boolit's dimensions while maintaining correct chamber neck clearance, neck tension on the boolit, correct bellmouth, and crimp.

6. Select an alloy for the purpose and cast some boolits.

7. Select a proper lube and prepare boolits.

8. Select powder and primer. For powder, consider barrel length, case volume, bore diameter, rifling twist rate, intended velocity range, and boolit weight. The goal here is to create as "soft" and gentle (slow) a launch as possible with gradual acceleration, peak pressure should be reached when the boolit is just past halfway down the barrel, and muzzle pressure should be kept as low as possible to prevent upsetting the boolit upon muzzle exit, all while delivering the desired muzzle velocity. Mild primers usually work best, often that means Federal or Remington.

9. Select safe starting load with the selected powder, primer, case, and boolit you will be using. Consult at least two published sources, internet sources other than those provided by powder manufacturers should be used only to supplement known good data.

10. Prepare brass and make a dummy round, checking the boolit fit, neck tension, function in the gun with a round made without primer or powder.

11. Load a sample batch of ammo.

12. CLEAN THE GUN OF ALL TRACES OF COPPER FOULING. Finish with an oiled patch followed by a dry patch to leave just a faint trace of oil in the bore before shooting your first cast boolit in it.

13. Test your first batch of ammo. Ten-shot strings are the best indicators. Chronograph your load if you can, this will tell you how close your setup is behaving to the setup used to generate the load data you used.

14. Evaluate your test results including brass, spent primer, and barrel condition. Make changes as necessary to get closer to your goals.

Here are some examples of ways I've chosen to do it, some specifics left out because each gun is unique: For .30-06 Sprg., 22" bolt action sporter, hunting whitetail out to 150 yards: 150-grain flat-nose boolit that fits the throat snugly while putting the gas check at the bottom of the case neck, IMR 4350, worked up to 2250 fps at 1.5 MOA with water-quenched 50/50 clip-on wheel weights and pure lead with an extra 1% tin added (gives a tough, hard boolit that will handle higher velocities, but not fragment when hitting bone), bottom three lube grooves lubed, mild roll crimp, military brass (for the thicker necks and less slop in the chamber, helps the boolit get stated straight), COAL selected based upon magazine length and seating to engrave the boolit nose (in this gun I got lucky and could do both), Federal LR primers, dies modified for .309" boolits and oversized outside neck diameter. There are a hundred more tiny details I haven't mentioned, but it could take all night to think of them all, suffice it to say there is a lot involved with good ammo crafting.

30-30 Winchester, Marlin 336 microgroove barrel, whitetail or hog hunting load out to 75 yards. Same alloy. Again, 150-grain flat nose, but not the same as the one for the .30-'06 hunting load, this one requires a custom mould that drops a boolit .312" to be sized to .311" to fit the gun's liking of a fatter boolit. Winchester 748 or IMR 3031, velocity 2000+/- fps. Felix lube, all grooves. Heavy roll crimp into crimp groove. Winchester or CCI primers. Lee reloading dies, expander stem from a Lee .303 British, .310" diameter used as-is, neck of 30-30 sizer polished out to only size brass to give .3095-.3100" ID with most brands/thicknesses of brass.

.22 Hornet, 100 yard paper-puncher: 24" bbl, water-quenched clip-on wheel weights, IMR 4227, Federal primers, Felix lube in only the last groove, no crimp, some bellmouth left on case to help center the case, cases neck sized in Sinclair dies. I found this one liked groove-diameter boolits.

Hope this helps,

Gear