Pressure signs 44

[fido]

Hi all. Does anyone have any links or info regarding what primer flow looks like.
44 S+W 629 6" new
I am loading 10% less max 2400 under a cci mag primer and a 240 G jhp.
It looks like these are starting to show signs of over pressure. Or are they?
It looks like the primer is flowing back around the firing pin. About 10 thou is higher than the rest. About 50% look like this. The emptys are not tight in the cylinder and I don't see any other signs of over pressure.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/sdeering/PA040047.jpg
Thanks for any info.
Stephen

[44man]

The primer does show high pressure signs but you say the cases don't stick.
Of course the first question I have is, why are you using mag primers with 2400? I won't even use them with 296. Is it because the shell says .44 magnum?
I would load that bullet with 23 gr's of 296 and the Federal 150 primer and see what happens. If you get the same results, I would say something mechanical is wrong. Throats too tight or bore too small. Check the throats, you should be able to slip a bullet through by thumb pressure or it will just fall through which is OK. If the bullet will not slip through, they need reamed. Slug the bore, it should be .429 to .430.
Then the firing pin hole could be too large.
You didn't loosen the mainspring strain screw did you, to try and lighten the trigger pull? The mainspring needs it's full power.
Then there might be headspace issues too.
Then is your loading manual up to date? Some newer powders are faster then the old stuff.

[David R]

I would stop there and see what is going on. I load sinful amounts of 2400 with out primers that look like that. I had a 38 that showed pressure signs with max loads, come to find out the throats were too small. After I honed the all to .3575 everything fell into place including accuracy.

Soooo how much 2400? I can go up to max in the lyman 46 handbook with lead gas check boolits in my Ruger Super Redhawk. Accuracy is outstanding.

David

[Glen]

Looks kinda like an excessive headspace situation. Were the chambers oily when you shot this ammo?

[klausg]

fido- 44man is right on it as usual; that primer would have me wondering. IIRC the newer (Alliant) 2400 is significantly faster than the old (Hercules), so if you're using the old data with the new powder that may be your problem also. I would definitely follow 44's advice and do some checking before firing any more of those.

-Klaus

[fido]

The load was 17g bullets seated to the crimp band and crimped. The cly is on the small side .427-.428 with my measuring devices. I will have to get a reamer. The barrel is .430 maybe this is why it shoots large groups. I thought it was me:)

Is it also a bad sign to have the outer perimeter of the primer look the way it does? Factory mag loads look the same on the outer perimeter of the primer, but don't have the primer material pushed around the firing pin. The S+W has a rounded piece that the primer pushes against that is convex, I thought this is why the primer was taking it's form, maybe high pressure signs there too. The gun is totally stock and clean.
Thanks for the info guys. I will have to get some regular primers as well.
Anyone have a reamer the want to sell or lend. Or should I send it back to the factory?
Stephen

[mag_01]

----Not recommending this load but I believe Elmer Kieth's load was 25grs. of 2400 behind a 250 gr. boolit. I have shot that load 25grs. behind a 255gr. lead boolit and it was a hand full and it was a tack driver----I did back that load down to 18grs. of 2400 and it was a comfortable load to shoot----Today I shoot mostly light loads. Another load that I liked was 11grs. of herco behind a 255gr. lead boolit----right on the money could put 3 rounds inside an inch orange dot at 25yrds off hand---cases would stick so I backed off and loads did not shoot as well--those days of being a good shot are gone---lucky to see target these days. Your load dose not seem to be hot but guns do vary -- try backing off a little or another powder ---and maybe you don't have a problem----cases don't stick---no black around primers---Do your cases look blown out like to heavy a load? good luck---Mag

[9.3X62AL]

Throats at .427"-.428" are undersized, and won't mesh well at all with that .430" groove diameter, esp. with cast boolits. Ruger was known for some time for building revolvers with backwards dimensional integrity (esp. their 45 Colts), I guess the disease is communicable.

I would surmise that .429" j-words getting pushed through undersized throats could produce the over-pressure indications your photos show, but other causes listed above can also contribute to those effects. There was a series of S&W revolvers--particularly their L-frames, in the early 1980's right after the 586/686 series came out, that had a LOT of problems with primer cratering at the firing pin impression. This was due to oversized firing pin recesses in the recoil shield, and the L-frames were re-engineered to overcome that problem. I don't know if N-frames of that same vintage show those same tendencies, and I don't know the vintage of your M-629, but there it is there.

If you are CERTAIN of the measurements of groove diameter and throats as given in your text, S&W might be willing to make the throats right. Ruger used to call their .449" throat/.452" groove relationship a "product characteristic, and within specs." If you get that kind of drag from the factory, reaming the throats yourself or by a vendor might be indicated.

I did the throats on my 45 Ruger without any complications, after a little briefing by Buckshot--since I had zero experience with the operation. Rest assured, I have no business being anywhere near a machine shop--but I was able to hone the throats.

[Pop Gun]

If you are CERTAIN of the measurements of groove diameter and throats as given in your text, S&W might be willing to make the throats right. Ruger used to call their .449" throat/.452" groove relationship a "product characteristic, and within specs." If you get that kind of drag from the factory, reaming the throats yourself or by a vendor might be indicated.



This is one of those truth is stranger than fiction points. Since Fido stated his gun was new and listed those dimensions, I believe that he has found his pressure problem.

There was an article published not too long ago that I will try to remember the name and where I read it. The article covered the model 29 /629 and the history of changes by S&W. According to the author, S&W did accuracy testing and .... determined that the best throat to bore relationship for jacketed bullets is for throats to be .001 UNDER bore diameter. So we go from .004 over to now under by .001 for revolvers manufacturered in the last few years with the most rescent number designations.

Take the new 329pd airlights. They have a nasty recoil reputation. My new 329pd actually had .4275 throats that added to the felt recoil tremendously. When opened up to .429 as the bore, everything became much more manageable. And since you need about .001 to push a cast bullet through easily, the plan is to open them up to .430 here shortly so that I can have a .429 bullet when it enters a .429 bore.

[Char-Gar]

A couple of thoughts..

1. Elmers load was 22/2400/429241 (250 grains) and a standard primer.

2. Those primers are showing sights of high end pressure, but not past the red line. If the cases are not sticking, methinks the primer crater might come from something other than excessive pressure.

3. The primer material can cause the flow around the firing pin hole and another brand of primers might not do that. I have had CCI primers crater on me and that went away when I switched to another brand.

4. A enlarged firing pin hole in the recoil shield can cause it was well

5. On a new Smith, the cylinder throats should be .429-.430.

6. The only truly accurate way to measure cylinder throats is either with a pin gage or a machinest hole gage in CLEAN throats.

7. If the throats are indeed under spec, send the pistol back to the factory.

[felix]

Keep in mind that a boolit obturates much more readily than a bullet. Your boolits are being expanded and then contracted beyond any reasonable norm. The integrity of the boolit as delivered by your barrel has been compromised considerably. ... felix

[mag_01]

Thks. Charger I was not sure of Elmer's load----no wonder the 25grs. seemed heavy----Mag

[fido]

Thanks for all the info guys. I am going to make a gonogo guage in .5 thou steps to measure the cyl. I have machining equipment and a good mike.
I will slug the barrel again to make sure it is .430. Then ream or have the cyl reamed. Should I ream the cyl to the same size as the barrel?
Stephen

[44man]

I think the best would be to go .0005" over bore size. Bore size works fine with jacketed but I think for cast I would go a little larger.

[fido]

Thanks 44 man.
Stephen

[9.3X62AL]

Agree with 44 on this one--the 45 Colt and its .452" groove diameter is now serviced very niocely by .453" throats that are fed .454" boolits.

[David R]

I honed my K38 with some 600 grit sand paper wraped around a "mandril". I chose a drill bit that fit well with 2 wraps of sandpaper held on with a piece of tape. I chucked the wrong end of the bit in a drill and held it straight as I could. An empty case in the cylinder might help alignment. I went slow and ended up with all my throats at .3575. The gun shoots much better and pressure signs are gone. Before a 150 round nose with 4.9 of 231 had sticky extraction. After the same load did not show any signs of pressure. This is a max load in the lyman manual.

I now load a gas check 240 grain boolit ahead of 22.5 grains of 2400 bought in 1995 with no pressure signs in a ruger super red hawk. velocity is almost 1400 in a 8 3/8" barrel. Accuracy is awesome. This is also a max load in lyman #46.

David

[swheeler]

David R; I didn't know Ruger made a SRH with an 8 3/8 inch barrel?

[9.3X62AL]

9.5", I think.

[mosin9130]

Fido,
before ream, enlarge, ect., etc., I would check the headspace (as said by 44Man) i.e. how much the cylinder shake in direction of barrel (is it called 'end shake'?).
When you shot a revolver, firstly under the pressure of the hammer's pin the cylinder and cartridge move forward and next the primer attempt to exit from its pocket under its action, before the powder start to burn; when the bullet leaves the shell and cylinder, both come back and, if the primer has had enough space to exit a bit, ecrase it on that part of the revolver's frame that support the shell base.
Now, a primer flattened by high pressure has a regular flat surface (less near the the percussion 's sign) because the pression acts on the whole inner surface, whilst a primer flattened by excess of headspace has a circular sign near the edge (as your photo shows) because the shell grips the primer's cup in its cylindrical part and the action is limited to the cup's corner.
I could easily be wrong but think that you have an end-shake's problem.

[44man]

Headspace can be checked by putting a piece of masking tape on the case head of an empty shell, (Size it and remove the old primer.) put it in the chamber and see if it rotates past the recoil shield. If it does, put a second piece on top and try again. The second piece should drag and start to tear off, three should be a total no go. If the first piece starts to rub and tear off, that is fine also and shows tight headspace. Normally a primer that is not fully seated should be enough to stop rotation.
If you look at the recoil shield, you will see it stands up a little higher then the rest of the frame. This helps prevent a shell with a primer a little proud from firing when it is not in line with the bore. Since recoil drives shells foreward in the non firing chambers, it works very well. This extra space allows the cylinder to be opened, turned or removed if a proud primer ties up the gun against the recoil shield.
Some guns are so tight that even a small difference in rim thickness will not allow rotation.

[44man]

Another problem with tight throats is that a lot of cast boolits have a bore ride or longer nose then most jacketed bullets. These will not chamber in the gun unless seated deep, taking up powder space and raising pressure if the load is not cut back.
Tight throats should be reamed or lapped anyway so any boolit can be shot and the increase in accuracy as well as a reduction in pressure, is well worth the trouble.

[fido]

Wow it sounds like we are going to get this figured by the amount of replys.
Like I said the gun is new i bought it this summer. It has about 200 rounds through it. I havent measured the end shake, but I dont think it has any maybe a thou or 2. I will check it. I know the bullets look quite loose in the cyl when closed, forward backward movement but I haven't looked at the one in the firing position. I will try the masking tape, or a feeler guage.
Stephen

[fido]

I did some slugging tonight Cyls .4283 Barrel .430+
I checked head space with a feeler gauge with a empty 10 to 11 thou.
I pushed a slug through the barrel again to feel resistance it definitely has more resistance right at the barrel threads. Will lapping straighten this out?
Any procedures?
Thanks for any info.
Stephen

[44man]

Fido, I would fire lap it until the tight section is gone. I would also do it before lapping or reaming the throats because there will be some wear on them from the lapping rounds. No sense doing the throats first and then subjecting them to grit loaded boolits.
The only other way is to lap the tight section with a lead lap.

[fido]

Thanks 44 man you are a great help. Can you briefly explain the procedures to lap.
I do have access to some very fine gas compressor valve laping compound.
STephen

[44man]

I think the fire lapping is best to get rid of the tight section where the barrel is threaded on. I don't like to run a lead lap down the bore from the front and it is best to bring it into the bore from the rear and keep it where it is needed. This is hard to do. You can buy power lapping boolits or the LBT power lapping compound and each comes with instructions.
You need boolits of about 14 Brinnel. Don't size or use any gas check. Smear compound on glass or metal and roll it into the surface of the boolits with another piece of glass or metal. Get good coverage all over the boolit.
Use unsized, fired cases and punch out the primer so you can put new ones in. Load with about 2 gr's of bullseye. You want to see the boolit exit and make sure every one does. You want the boolit to just make it out, not a fast load. Put the boolit in the cases by hand and push them in with a stick until they stop, making all of them the same depth.
You will have to clean real good and check the tight spot to see if it is gone. Best done with a lead slug. Might take 20 shots or more.
The LBT compound is kind of course. If you use real fine stuff it will take a lot of shots. If you buy lapping boolits, you start with the course ones and work to the very fine ones. By far the easiest way. Someone here can tell you who sells them.
Lapping has the most effect at the rear of the barrel and you will actually get a tiny taper in the bore, tighter at the muzzle, which is very good.

[fido]

Thanks man.
STephen

[lar45]

If there was excessive headspace, the primer would look ironed out and flat at the edge of the primer pocket.
The fireing pin hits the primer and pushes the catridge forward, pressure raises and pushes the primer back out, then the pressure raises more and pushes the case back reseating the primer and leaves it flat across the back looking like a very high pressure round.

Be careful with your Smiths, they are dainty little things and can not handle the punishment that a Ruger will take.

[xpshooter]

How do the Dan Wesson's compare as to their strength?

[BD]

I believe the DWs are just as strong, and far more likely to be accurate, than the Rugers. The cylinders are as long as well, allowing you to seat out to the second crimp groove, (where that is an option). I went through five Redhawks looking for a good one. My DW 744 outshot all of them out of the box, and after some work it is way ahead. Trigger work on a DW is pretty fussy, and you won't get to where you can with a SW, but the works will hold up as well as a Ruger.
BD

[500bfrman]

I believe the DWs are just as strong, and far more likely to be accurate, than the Rugers. The cylinders are as long as well, allowing you to seat out to the second crimp groove, (where that is an option). BD

Don't the Ruger's have long cylinders too? I was under the impression the S.Redhawk did anyway.

[44man]

No problem with Rugers taking any boolit you want to stuff in them.
DW's are strong but how they are put together and shoot depends on when they were made. The early ones were great but then when someone else took them over they were nothing but junk. Barrels were screwed in crooked, cylinder fronts were not faced off square and a lot of internal parts were not fit right to do the jobs they were designed for. The company went downhill and changed hands so many times that some guns looked like they were made in Pakistan.
I have no idea what the newest ones look like because I got rid of all of mine and never bought another. If you have a good one, hang on to it because they are super accurate when made right.

[44man]

A tip for you DW owners for getting the barrel nut off if it is real tight. Don't ever force it! Put a rubber tube in the forcing cone, put a funnel in the tube and pour boiling water through the bore. The nut will spin right off!

[xpshooter]

Thanks for the tip 44Man. BD what kind of work did you have done?

[44man]

Well I spent 42 years with United Airlines (When they were a REAL airline.) and 51 years as a hobby and part time gunsmith. Been casting and reloading for 53 years.
I built many long rifles and custom rifles using planks for wood, no kits for me! I checker rifles, carve and engrave the muzzle loaders and do everything except machining and blueing. I never had enough money to spend on machine tools.
I shot IHMSA for years and won Ohio State with 79 out of 80 with a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 and Ohio State .22 with 57 out of 60 with a Ruger Mark II. I had no sight settings so I missed the first pig, turkey and ram. My spotter told me where I hit and an adjustment put me on target. I also got all of the 100 yd shoot off targets.
Eyesight is bad now and I need red dots or scopes.
I bought a Smithy and now make my own boolit moulds. I don't trust this machine for gunsmith work.
I have shot over 355 deer, about 222 or so with bows but I have lost count some time ago. I now shoot 5 to 7 a season. I keep two and give my neighbors meat. I have great neighbors, they all let me hunt.
I also love all the guys here! We might argue about some small thing once in a while but you will never find a greater bunch of guys anywhere. Many get more scientific then I do and a lot are smarter then I am so just listen to them and try what they say. I have never found a better site anywhere! I hope they all can put up with me!

[BD]

XP shooter, I bought my DW 744 from Midsouth when they were selling out of DW. Paid $390 new in the box with a six inch barrel. The gun shot much better out of the box than my redhawk, which I'd put a lot of time into finding and firelapping. There were no flies on that redhawk, it was strong as you could ask for and served me well, but 6 inches at 100 yards was it's best performance. The DW shot a four inch group the first time out. While messing around with the 265 grain WFNs I noticed the DW wouldn't chamber them in all six chambers. I took the pin guages to it and determined the the chamber reamer hadn't been run in evenly all the way around. So I called DW and they told me that by the serial number I had a "Transition Gun" , ie: a cylinder left in stock from the prior company in a new CNC'd frame. They said to send it on in and they'd take care of it. While they were at it they said "why don't you send in one of those WFNs you like so much". So I did. For $25 shipping I got back a 744 custom chambered for my WFNs. It shoots way better than I can now. A few months ago I had a free weekend and gave it a trigger job. Never touched the release points or the mainsping, just pulled it apart and stoned the sides of the action where everything was dragging over machine marks, and rebent the hand spring and stoned it a flat spot to ride on. Slicked things right up and I'm a happy camper. I have a Monson, (the original plant) Blued M15 which I've been working on. I traded a M96 swede for it before I left Maine. I don't think it'd had 200 rounds through it before I got it and the bluing is the best I've ever seen. It was gummed up with congealed oil, the barrel nut was stuck and the crown on the six inch barrel was ruined by cleaning from the muzzle. I cleaned it up and put a four inch barrel on it and it shoots very well. It's next in line for the action job when I get a chance. I like the DWs. You can't get the trigger you can with a smith, but they're awful stout and very accurate. If you can find a new 744, IMHO you're way ahead of a Redhawk.
BD

[44man]

DW has some great people but had some terrible management for a while. I was in the transition period when they were not good at all. I think the workers were rebelling at the time. I hear they are real good now. My friend has the .45 ACP and it shoots very tight groups at 50 yd's. If I remember I shot an inch for 5 shots.
I never liked the standard Redhawk because they are very picky about loads. My SRH was so accurate I could hit pop cans at 200 yd's from sandbags with a scope. My friend talked me out of it when I wanted a BFR. I am real happy with the BFR's I have now. I outshoot Freedoms day in and day out by a wide margin. My friend just bought a new Freedom .357 and it sucks, it doesn't know what a group is. The crookedest DW ever built would shoot circles around it.

[David R]

I never owned a Dan in 44, but have shot a few. Accuracy is there. Like said above, the trigger could be better. It has a trigger group that comes out the bottom of the frame and no side plate. I think its much stronger than a smith. A friend had an 8" 44 with a ported barrel. He shot a lot of lead in it and almost soldered the barrel to the shroud. I would NOT recomend shooting lead out of a dan unless you take the barrel off and clean it every time you shoot it.

David

[BD]

Well I just shot the first condoms through my DW that it's ever seen. The local range won't let me shoot cast and I wanted to make sure I got the sight adjustment back after the trigger work. My DW 744 probably only has 3,000 -4,000 rounds through it, all hard cast Lee 310s and 265 gr WFNs, (except the 20).
And pretty much all of them "full house" loads, so maybe it's not really a test case yet, and I do clean it occasionally, which is maybe why the barrel's not soldered to the shroud as yet.
BD

[500bfrman]

Well I just shot the first condoms through my DW that it's ever seen. BD


It's a sad day in SC.:(