How much does lube consistency affect bullet strike?

[MT Marlin Shooter]

Hi, I've been lurking for quite a while and reading everything I could find on lube after I got my first bullets cast up. Loading up Lee 405 gr Hollow Base from WW with a little solder for my Marlin 45-70. After doing some load work ups, I thought I had my round with 40 grs of Re-7. Put 5 rounds in a nice group, right in the center at 100 yds. So I went back, loaded up a bunch at that combo, and went back to the range to see what the drops were at various ranges. Out after those elusive elk, don't you know, and I know the 45-70 has a reputation for rainbow shaped trajectories.

My first lube recipe was 50/50 beeswax/Vaseline (by weight) with a tablespoon of Marvel Mystery Oil and a couple of small red crayons. It mixed up VERY tacky, VERY messy and a general pain. Looking at the lube on some commercial pistol bullets I had, I decided to add some more wax, which I did and while it isn't nearly as hard as that blue stuff in the commercial rounds, it was much easier to use and made much neater rounds. Which also shot 8"high at 100 yds. 8 INCHES!! [smilie=b:

WHAT THE HECK? I had loaded up some rounds at 42, 44 and 46 grs as well, and I had flyer problems like crazy. The fastest these things got was the mid 1800's, with no signs of leading. Can one of you more experienced guys help me out? Can stiffening up the lube a little cause this kind of problem, or should I be looking elsewhere? While I am not leading I just wonder if this bullet should be kept around 1300 or 1400 fps? I had some cowboy rounds with me and they printed well, a keyhole and a third shot about 1"away, and the LeveRevolution stuff did so as well.

Don't make me go back to shooting factory ammo, the casting is too much fun.

Greg

[noylj]

What did you lube the first bullets with—the 50% Beeswax and 50% petrolatum? That seems like a black powder lube. If it worked, then the problem was that it was messy to load? Maybe a little Ivory soap flakes to saponify and thicken the mix?
Can you lube some more the same way and see if you still get good groups? A single good group could just be luck/coincidence.
You say you aren't getting any leading, but...Generally, the answer would deal with getting proper bullet fit so one could achieve accuracy and eliminate leading; however, you are coming at things with a different problem.
Then, if you are using a Lubrisizer, I would recommend you run with 30-50% Alox 350 (or Xlox 350), a grease (and not the same Alox as in Lee Liquid Alox), with the Beeswax. That is the old NRA formula. You can also try LithiBee.
If it was me, I gave up sizing bullets a long time ago and all I havefor several years has been a light tumble-lube of my lead bullets with Lee's Liquid Alox. I am very happy with just a light coating of LLA on all my lead bullets.
On this site, a popular tumble lube is 50% Johnson Paste Wax and 50% LLA (see sticky for lube recipes for stick lubes, pan lubes, and tumble lubes).

[JJC]

Don't make me go back to shooting factory ammo, the casting is too much fun. What are you crazy?:shock: Definately check out the lube stickey and the commercial lubes for sale here. I made the Felix lube and have no complaints.

[reloader28]

Sounds kinda familiar. I normally make 50/50 beeswax/alox plus 10% parafin. Shoots great in all my pistols and rifles. Thought I could make it stiffer and better for high velocity so a couple months ago I made a batch of 2/3 beeswax and 1/3 alox.

That made it nice and stiff, but after about the third shot there was no more group, only fliers. I assumed you cant use that much beeswax, wiped the lube from those boolits and relubed with my normal stuff. Back to good groups. I also remelted the stiff lube, added another 1/3 alox and 10% parafin and made the good stuff again.

[MT Marlin Shooter]

Thanks, guys for the replies. I realized after I posted I didn't mention bullet fit. I slugged my barrel and it came out .457, the Lee drops them at .459 so I should be good on fit. I have read through ALL of the lube recipes, believe me. I avoided the ones where I needed to order more stuff on line and wait another week or two. I did save some of the original mixture, so I can try it again. Also, I did not mention that I pan lube, and do not size(waiting to find a good deal on E-Bay). One other issue I was having was that the 5-shot groups had velocity variations of up to 77 fps. This seems kind of high to me, since I weigh and trickle every round. I wonder if either the Re7 isn't that consistent or if I got an old batch? Man, this isn't as easy as it looks!
Greg

[Doc Highwall]

It could be that the VERY tacky, VERY messy lube came off the bullet with more consistently then your harder lube that can cause unbalance and fliers to the bullets

[noylj]

Never judge a round by the velocity or the velocity's standard deviation.
Does it produce accuracy that you can live with and, if hunting or knocking down plates, does it have sufficient power on target?
Have you tried 3031? I seem to remember that being what many considered to be THE POWDER for .45-70 loads for strong actions.

[Hammer]

Man, this isn't as easy as it looks!
Greg "

If someone ever told you this was easy, they were fibbing.... But it sure is fun!

[smilie=b:

[sundog]

Greg, check out Ranch Dog moulds -- http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/

Michael might even be able to help you out with some load data. Also, you might consider using his lube method of dipping in thinned Lee Liquid Alox (LLA).

[home in oz]

I dont think it is easy by any means.

Interesting, YES!

[MT Marlin Shooter]

Noylj: I have also read a lot about 3031 and since I drained the container of RE7 on my last go-round, I think I will try some of that. I'm also going to load up some rounds with the first batch of lube (the sticky stuff) to see if that is really the problem. The Doc had a good point, though the "hard:" lube is still pretty pliable, but it might be flying off unevenly. I'm also going to load down 4 grs (or the equivalent, since I'm changing powders) to see how that flies. I know lots of guys are pushing these 405's between 1600 and 1800, but looking back on the posts, they never seem to mention group size at 100 yds for those velocities. Maybe they are really only good to 50 yds at that speed, and I should load some up for bear self defense but go slower for my elk rounds.

[35remington]

Two issues jump out at me from your post:

1) 1800 fps is a bit optimistic for a hollowbase bullet. A gaschecked design would do better at this speed......likely much better.

2) Lubing the enormous lube grooves on the Lee hollowbase very probably results in overlubrication with smokeless loads. The bullet carries generous lube grooves for black powder shooting. Try lubing only the bottom groove and slowing things down. Too much lube often causes flyers, then the groups settle down, then start throwing flyers again. Too much lube on a bullet makes it very first shot sensitive from a barrel that has been left to sit for awhile.

[firefly1957]

I load a lot less RE-7 behind the same bullet in a 1889 trapdoor and have no problems. I suspect 35remington may be on the right track the load might be to much for a hollow base bullet.

Now to highjack his thread a little it is easy to tell when there is to little lube but does to much lube cause a problem? and how do you tell?:rolleyes:

[Doc Highwall]

I went back and re-read everything as I had focused on the lube with my first post. The Lee 405gr HB bullet was designed for the 45-70 and black powder at black powder velocities. I shoot a 45-70 Marlin and for what you are trying for 1800-fps I would use a gas check bullet like Ranch Dogs. I am using a 30:1 alloy with a RCBS 45-500 FN GC and I am dropping the velocity down to black powder velocities considering all the millions of bison that were killed.

firefly1957, to answer your question first lube all the grooves and establish an accuracy level with your load, then lube all the grooves except the top one and test it and determine if it is better. If it is better, again lube one less groove and test again while keeping an eye on fouling. What some people do not realize is lubes can be too slippery and by not lubing all the grooves accuracy can increase and this is also dependent on the condition of your barrel.

MT Marlin Shooter, if you are interested in the 45-70 like I am, consider buying this book on the Trap Door Springfield.

[MT Marlin Shooter]

I just have to say what a great forum this is!!

Thanks all of you for the great advice. While I have been shooting for quite awhile, I am very new to casting and all that it involves. While I get that the HB should expand in the barrel and help with preventing gas cuts, I never considered that too much umph may distort the bullet. Also that TOO MUCH lube may be a problem. I guess I was getting a little obsessed with flattening the trajectory (within 150 yds or so)and hitting real hard so as to be sure to get good penetration on elk.

Doc, you make a real good point about the history of this round with soft lead/lower velocities, and I think that until I can afford a RD mold and a lubrisizer, I will slow things down a bit, like into the 1300 to 1400 range. The cowboy bullets that I loaded with Unique come out about 1125, are an absolute ball to shoot, and print pretty darn well at 100, I just have to hold up about a foot. I probably wouldn't hunt with them, but they are fun to shoot at steel plates at 50 yds.

Since the hunting season is about half over, and the sunny days have passed, I will hunt this year with LeveRevolutions and work on loads after the season. I'm looking forward to learning lots more. Again, thanks, as I was getting very frustrated and feeling very lost. You guys are great!

Greg

[firefly1957]

Doc Highwall Thank you I shoot this bullet with both black powder and smokeless 55 grs FG or a load of RE-7 that gives me a 1100 f/s for hunting ( it flattened a 7 point at 50 yds.) Lube has not been a problem with this gun/boolit combination.
I do have a LEE 255gr 44 cal mold that I shoot in 44 special and Magnum in Special I pour nearly pure lead size and fill all lube grooves and load no more than 700f/s less in bulldogs 3 inch barrel. In Magnum I cast strait wheel weight lead size and only lube two grooves as bullet is seated out and crimped in first lube groove . I load these to 1430 f/s out of 8 3/8" barrel and they shoot very well. Mixing these bullets does lead Magnum very badly in a few shots!!!! I have not yet had a problem with too much lube in a cartridge gun I have had a problem in a muzzle loader but it had to due with powder contamination not fowling.

[Char-Gar]

Mt. Marlin

I can't address all of your problems, as I have learned a few things about the internet. It is almost impossible to second guess somebody over cyber space. Unless I was with you, looking over your shoulder, I can't know what your did either wrong or right.

That said, I do have two comments.

1. For over 50 years I have been using a lube made of beeswax and enough Vaseline to soften it for use in a lube sizer. I never paid much attention to the proportions, but I would guess it would be about 65/35 wax to Vaseline. I have never added anything to it and have never had any of the issue you describe. I am talking at least a half million rounds!

2. Petroleum based products such as Vaseline should NEVER be used as a lube ingredient with with black powder!!!!!