Large Throats and Practical Accuracy

[inthebeech]

I have one of the new 44 Specials with 4 5/8 bbl that has large throats (.433) and a groove that sluggs .4295. (Yes I am sure of these dimensions).

I am looking for practical advice about how to maximize the gun's "limited" potential, short of replacing the cylinder. I've been shooting low velocity loads with soft (BHN-10-12) 200 gr RN that measure.430 and Hornady swaged 240 gr SWC's. These also come in at about .430. I've been using Unique for both.

To give you a sample of the gun's performance (and whether anyone actually feels that with these dimensions it could even be bettered), I am getting 4 inch groups at 20 yds with my estimation of my own abilities accounting for 1.5-2 inches of that spread.
Also I am getting enough leading that cleaning is needed after perhaps 20 rounds.
Finally I shoot them but I don't cast them so if you could include sources in any recommendation for where I might get whatever you think is needed, I'd apreciate it.
Thanks all in advance.

[leftiye]

.433 boolits maybe? Smaller ones will possibly shoot well, but will gas cut with high pressure or fast powders.

[9.3X62AL]

I would vote for .433" boolits and an 11* cut to the forcing cone. A shoulderless round flat-nose design might be indicated, also.

[fecmech]

I have that exact combination in a Ruger SBH. If you want accuracy with no leading you need bullet diameter! I "beagle" the Lee 215 SWC and Lyman 429421 to .435 and size to .433. Loading 7 grs of 231 or Green Dot both bullets will group 3" or less at 50 yds. That is pretty much a .44 spl load.
If I shoot those bullets sized at .430 there is no accuracy to speak of and the gun leads badly.

[MtGun44]

I have a SBH with similar dimensions. It does well with a fat GB 429421 at .434 and no
other changes.

Bill

[fecmech]

Just noticed your location,where in upstate NY?? I am in the Buffalo area.

[44man]

I would vote for .433" boolits and an 11* cut to the forcing cone. A shoulderless round flat-nose design might be indicated, also.
I will agree with this route but maybe .432" would work also. Worth a try.
Beagle or lap the mold. I made my own so I have to .434". RD molds will cast a larger boolit too.
Unique is HARD on a soft boolit and it might be getting destroyed before going into the barrel plus it will be skidding the rifling. My experiments with fast powders has shown my gun needs a boolit of 28 to 30 BHN to be accurate.
This has another advantage! My RCBS semi wad cutter is .429" cast from WD WW's. My throats are .4324" and the bore is .430".
By using a harder alloy my boolits age harden to .431".
I chose this boolit to work with because it has always shot poorly.
Accuracy is now better then any Keith I ever shot and I get zero leading.
Take a much closer look at the soft lead, you might be surprised by going to a very hard boolit. It might expand to .432" without changing the mold.

[Bass Ackward]

Finally I shoot them but I don't cast them so if you could include sources in any recommendation for where I might get whatever you think is needed, I'd apreciate it.
Thanks all in advance.




http://www.pennbullets.com/44/44-caliber.html

[475BH]

http://www.pennbullets.com/44/44-caliber.html

I'll second the Penn idea, I have been shooting their .44 wadcutter with 5 grs. of w-231 and have been getting 1" or better groups @ 25 w/ good light.
Very good quality.

[44man]

http://www.pennbullets.com/44/44-caliber.html
That 205 gr PB looks great.

[odis]

I'll second the Penn idea, I have been shooting their .44 wadcutter with 5 grs. of w-231 and have been getting 1" or better groups @ 25 w/ good light.
Very good quality.I hope you are talking about the full wadcutter because I am toying with trying them in my 624. I have used a lot of Penn bullets because I don't cast and have no complaints.

[Bass Ackward]

He does smelt his own mixes and he uses a synthetic lube that mixes with everything I have tried so far. More importantly, you get the size you ask for. The quality is first rate if you order the harder stuff to travel through the mail.

The light bullet line up for Specials is what sets these apart.

[inthebeech]

Thanks guys.
I placed an order for two different styles, both soft, from Penn and just gave them my gun's dimensions.. He said in an e-mail that .432 is within his capabilities so I'll be testing soon and we'll see.
If Unique is not ideall for soft lead, what should be used?
Ed

[Bass Ackward]

Unique has shot a ton of cast in the 44 Spec. And that is just from me.

I find that if you fit your bullet and run it soft enough to obturate, then you can run just about anything within reason and make it work. The only times you have to worry about powder speed and load level is if you are too slow/ low on the charge to seal as you come up and then when you get too much pressure for the hardness. Then you will need more knowledge / experience.

But I would stay with the Unique regardless at this point. You are changing bullet diameter now. Change one variable at a time until you see results. (compare apples to apples)

Always be methodical with change. Don't jump around.

[UnderDawgAl]

As with inthebeech's 44 Spl flat top, mine also has .432+ throats. I also considered Penn bullets, but my Lee 215 swc 2-cav, my Lyman 429383, and my Ideal 429421HP all drop bullets at .432-.434, so I got lucky. Otherwise, I'd be ordering the Penns.

Not sure why Ruger is cutting their throats at .432, but from what I hear, that seems to be consistently the case with their new guns, at least in 44 Special. Have yet to hear of a new one with throats of .430 or so.

[45 2.1]

Unique is HARD on a soft boolit and it might be getting destroyed before going into the barrel plus it will be skidding the rifling. My experiments with fast powders has shown my gun needs a boolit of 28 to 30 BHN to be accurate.


Jim, are you EVER going to learn anything? The above statement is somewhat WRONG.................

[BABore]

Jim, are you EVER going to learn anything? The above statement is somewhat WRONG.................

Nope, just CRS

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=89489

[44man]

Jim, are you EVER going to learn anything? The above statement is somewhat WRONG.................
How so? I am talking maximum accuracy with zero leading.
True that Unique is better then Bullseye or 231 but still has a thump at the point a boolit is entering the forcing cone.
I would always would work with a slower powder for a softer boolit, maybe Blue Dot. I feel a powder that takes a little more for the same velocity is always better. Just stretch out the pressure curve.
Too many recovered boolits had me wondering why I went to so much trouble casting a perfect boolit. A sinker would have done the same thing! [smilie=l: Nose ruined, grease grooves gone, crimp groove also compressed to nothing and wide rifling marks.
SOFT to obturate? How about SIZE to obturate?
Is this why guys claim wrinkled and deformed boolits shoot OK? Because they are ruined in the gun anyway!
No, my friend, can't change an old goats mind. [smilie=l:
I look at it this way. Take just a revolver barrel and set a soft boolit into the cone, prop a rod on the boolit and hit it with a 50# sledge, full swing, what happens?
Now just push the boolit in with a slow hydraulic ram, then speed the ram up as the boolit is going down the bore.
But then, just how can anyone make a 2" barrel accurate? Need a fast powder so just make the boolit hard.
It will never stop amazing me that a guy uses a load for jacketed that shoots good and expects almost pure lead to do the same. :killingpc

[9.3X62AL]

I'll start the popcorn...... :)

[fecmech]

Thanks Al, you gave me a good start to the day!

[44man]

Jim, are you EVER going to learn anything? The above statement is somewhat WRONG.................
Besides, it was in my gun! [smilie=l:

[45 2.1]

Nope, just CRS

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=89489

Yep, would have to agree with that synopsis............[smilie=l:

[44man]

I know, you guys have fun at my expense! :drinks: Makes me laugh too though. :mrgreen:

[Rodfac]

44 Man usually has good advice especially so if you are approaching the upper velocities. Rodfac

[45 2.1]

44 Man usually has good advice especially so if you are approaching the upper velocities. Rodfac

Maybe so for the guns that can take that pressure level, but his method is pretty useless for low pressure guns....................

[44man]

Maybe so for the guns that can take that pressure level, but his method is pretty useless for low pressure guns....................
Not so, the .44 mag was loaded to the same pressures as the special. I started with 5 gr of 231 and 7 gr of Unique over the years with 240 to 245 gr boolits. Never has a soft boolit shot like I want.
That last test picture was with 7 of 231 to 10 gr of Unique to prove a point to a poster. As the load gets hotter, lead needs to be hard but reducing the loads has proven the same thing. Too much initial pressure peak.

[Calamity Jake]

I'll start the popcorn...... :)

[smilie=l:[smilie=l:

[Char-Gar]

It is not uncommon to find 44s with .433 cylinder throats. Up until a few years ago that was pretty much standards. I have fired many of them with good results and .431 or .432 bullets of wheel weight. Most often the power is Unique.

[ironhead7544]

My 5 and 1/2 inch 44 Special Flat Top measures .430 bore and .432 throats. Havent shot it much yet but a 200 gr RNFP .430 and 7.0 Unique goes into 1.5 inches at 25 yards. The J-word bullets work OK too.

[Wally]

My Model 24 is so blessed....433" cylinders throats. I got a used 429348 bullet mold that cast bullets at .434"---I lubed/loaded some unsized and another batch I sized to .431"...no difference in accuracy. I use a lot of 429215's in it now as I can make my own gas checks...(who lieks to use gas checks in a .44 Spceial)....sized to .431"..accuracy is quite good...