Smith Carbine advice please

[jhrosier]

I just won a Navy Arms Smith cavalry carbine on an auction.
http://images40.fotki.com/v1331/photos/5/590147/2786028/smithpix1-vi.jpg

I have scouted the web for, and found quite a bit of information about the gun and it's history.

I am curious to know where I should look for the best prices on cartridge cases.

I think that I can pick up a few gently used brass cases for $1.50 each.
Is there still more than one type of plastic case available, and if so, which should I try and where can I get them?

I intend to use the gun mainly for target shooting but I would like to try a few heavier loads also.

I saw one ad for aluminum cases. Do these work well and last for a while? I have a mini-lathe that I have not used much and the aluminum ones should be easy to make if it is worth the trouble.

I found a Pedersoli mould for short money and bought it figuring that it might be usable or fixable. I was curious whether the Lee 50 cal REAL mould might work in the Smith.

Has anyone tried Hodgdons Triple Seven in the Smith? It seems like the rumored 15% greater power of the 777 might be suited to the reduced capacity brass cases.

I bumped into a source for a higher replacement front sight but have now forgotten where I found it. Hints welcomed.....

Jack

[oldhickory]

About any of the "suttlers" can fix you up with cases. Lodgewood, S&S, Regimental Quartermaster, Fall Creek, Blocade Runner, Etc. I've used the plastic cases in my original and they work fine, (cheap too). They have reduced capacity cases available for target shooters that won't require fillers also. The above mentioned suttlers will also have sights, shoot it first before worrying about it though, mine shoots well with issue.

I don't know about the LEE Real boolit, I shoot a .518/350gr. in the original, maybe the new guns are closer to true .50?

Smiths are easy to work with, and clean, besides just plain fun. One of the better breach loading designs for sure.

[cwskirmisher]

I have both original and the Navy Arms versions. As OldHickory mentioned, the originals are close to .515 groove dia, but the Navy arms (at least mine) was .50 lands and .005 grooves for .510, and it shot .515 fine (but they were tight). Size them down to .512 and they were fine too.

The black plastic cases from any of the sutlers work great. They expand to seal the chamber just like the original India Rubber. They are available in either full (about 40 grains) or reduced (about 28 grains). Most target shooters prefer the reduced, only so they don't need fillers. Either work fine, and accuracy loads are found between 22-28 grains of 3F black powder. The subsitutes should work - but I have never tried them.

I tried a REAL once and it was acceptable accuracy for hunting - but not target accuracy. Don't know why but guess there is not enough bearing surface in the design for this carbine. YMMV. Use a good BP lube (Crisco/Beeswax works well).

[jhrosier]

Thanks guys!

Jack

[Tom-ADC]

I bought the black plastic cases from Dixie and mastercaster here has some boolits ready to go. I'm going to try 40grs of Goex FFg anhd some woth 40 grs of Swiss 1.5 Fg hope to make the range this week next at the latest.
Do plan on buying some of the brass cases soon. Mines a Pietta.

[jhrosier]

What alloy is suitable for boolits?
I've heard mention of some folks using straight WW.
Would 1:30 mix work OK?
Is there any disadvantage to using harder boolits?
I water drop everything else because it is convenient.

Jack

[oldhickory]

A 1:30 alloy sounds suitable, (or any BCR mix). Slug your bore the same as any center fire ridle and size accordingly, (push through sizers are available from the above mentioned suttlers).

[jhrosier]

Well, I fired up the lead pot and cast a bunch of boolits for the Smith today.
They measure a bit more than .500 at the largest point and .495 at the smallest point.:groner:
I'm thinking that beagleing them .010-.015" larger is pushing too far.
The mould is really not worth spending for shipping both ways and $25 more to open up the driving bands.
I'm going to try some of these boolits in my .500 S&W Handi-rifle tomorrow, over some black powder.

I've ordered the Lee 515450. I will get someone to set it up and mill away the base band and the last lube groove to get the weight down a bit.

Jack

[jhrosier]

I got out and shot the Smith carbine for the first time today. More about that later.

Since the Pietta mould cast way too small, I bought the Lee 450 gr. mould for the 50-70.
I got a pal to set the mould on his milling machine and remove the first drive band and lube groove.
( I will be selling the unneeded lube grooves later.):kidding:
The sprue plate hole was deep enough after milling but I did have to run a bottom tap in to get one more thread.

The mould cast nicely after milling and deburring and the boolits are about 355 grs when cast of 1:30 alloy. I'm told that the correct projectile weight is a bit short of 300 grs for this gun. I was hoping that the extra 60 grs of boolit won't be a serious problem.

The boolits cast at .516/.517" diameter. I dipped them in melted Carnauba Red and pushed them through a 33/64" drill bushing to remove the excess lube.

I had bought a hundred and some brass cases from a friend and he threw in twenty five well used plastic cases for free. I decided to start out with the plastic cases as they hold 35grs powder. The brass cases are said to hold a shade less than 30grs. powder. I hoped to offset the extra weight of the boolit with the larger cases.

I will start with the good news:

When the gun fires, the shots are going into about 2" at fifty yards.
There is a bit more blowby than I expected with the plastic cases, but I don't know what is considered normal for the Smith. Reminder to self; don't put hand over barrel-receiver junction (learned this the hard way with a percussion Sharps.):-(

The bad news, or Cons is a longer list, but all issues are easily corrected by replacing parts:

The trigger pull is absolutely terrible. I keep checking to see if I left the hammer at half-cock.
A new trigger spring will be the first item ordered.

The gun fails to fire with the first cap, most of the time. A second musket cap seems to do the trick. The hammer spring seems awful light and is probably not giving very good ignition. A new hammer spring should fix the problem. I'm also wondering if the Hogdons Triple 7 is a bit harder to ignite than real BP. I will give real BP a try next time out.

The gun shoots about a foot and a half high at fifty yards. This was not a surprise as most of the old guns were sighted for longer range. The front sight tapers down to nearly a knife edge. I'm not sure if I could have seen it even in my younger days. Higher replacement front sights are available in several widths.

The hammer is blown back to the half cock notch once in a while. This was unexpected but not a huge surprise. Most of the imported guns that I have used have huge flash holes through the nipples. A good quality nipple is always an investment in reliability and accuracy.

Despite the multiple problems, the gun is fun to shoot and seems like it will give good accuracy when all of the minor problems are solved. I think that my modified Lee mould is going to work out just fine.

Jack

[oldhickory]

I think you're right about the mold, Jack. My Rapine is 350gr. and made for the Smith. Those front sights are easy to replace with a taller blade. Get a quality main, and sear spring, stone the tumbler or replace it and lastly, a choked SS nipple. With a little load work you should be shooting one ragged hole at 100yds with it fromthe bench soon.

[carbine]

A fellow skirmisher just picked one up. Had the same problem and poor ignition. The "hole under the nipple is too large and needs to fill up with carbon. We had a gunsmith ( Charlie Hahn) put a bolt into the Drill hole ( not clean out screw) drill it out and made a new flash channel
The trigger is an issue because after having a trigger job the pieta smith soon go into half cock and the tumbler need re-shaping.
S and S firearms has what you need as well as others.(tall front sight) You won it in a raffle so you can put a couple of hundred into it. I generally tell folks to buy and original they are less aggravation.
You can get the correct bullet mould from Moose moulds.
There are a bunch on N-SSA members in Mass. They have a lot of Smith knowledge. Where are you located?