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Jeremiahm
05-19-2005, 08:05 AM
I have just acquired a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk in 44 mag. The cylinder throats measure .433, all six of them. My question are: what size bullet do I need? And, if I need a .433 boolit, where do I get the mold to drop a bullet at .434 and where do I get a sizing die that is .433???

This is my first post on this forum, so please, be gentle. ha ha.

This gun is for sillhouettes so I need to squeeze every bit of accuracy I can get out of it.

Jeremiah

9.3X62AL
05-19-2005, 08:46 AM
A lot of commercial 44 caliber molds won't drop boolits at the size you need to fit those throats. Dan at Mountain Molds (www.mountainmolds.com) has done fine work for me on several molds. His site features "design-your-own" boolit software, and has generic designs as well where you specify the desired "as cast" diameter in a given alloy.

Curious--what is your revolver's groove diameter? Most Ruger 44's are pretty close to .430", so you might consider an 11 degree forcing cone recut to ease the boolits into that tighter tube if things go awry with boolits that fit the throat. .003" is not usually a "problem" variation, but is at the high side of "normal".

Robert Stillwell does custom sizer dies (www.sizingdie.com). I just received one of his examples, and it is a fine tool. Turnaround time from order placement to arrival was about three weeks.

I recently "opened up" the throats on my Bishawk x 45 Colt from .449" (arrgghh) to .453". I have what I think is an ideal boolit/throat/groove relationship in this revolver now--.454" boolits, .453" throats, and .452" groove. I'm thinking that if your boolits fall out at .434", sizing to .433" will give you a tiny bit of springback with harder alloys, so the boolits will fit the throats snugly enough to seal against blow-by.

If someone here already has a "fat" 44 caliber mold, perhaps they could send you some samples you could size with the new tool--or size/lube them for you.

Jeremiahm
05-19-2005, 08:57 AM
I apppreciate the info.

I need to slug the barrel next to see what it is, but isn't the throat diameter what I need to conentrate my fitting on?

Can you recommend a good guy to recut the forcing cone if I need to go that route in the future?

KCSO
05-19-2005, 08:58 AM
I had the same problem with an EMF lever rifle that was a tad oversize in the bore. I beagled a Lee Mold and took a Lee push through sizer die and lapped it out to 432 diameter. This worked fine and the cost was minimal. If that was my Ruger I would go with the 11 degree forcing cone and have it polished as most of the Rugers I see have a rough forcing cone and I like SMOOTH. I have found that just smoothing the forcing cone will eliminate a lot of leading in a revolver.

Jeremiahm
05-19-2005, 09:08 AM
Any idea on what it would cost me to get a 11 degree forcing cone?

Also, would the 11 degree forcing cone affect the gun's ability to shoot jacketed bullets all? Good or bad?

Willbird
05-19-2005, 09:08 AM
We have a group buy over in group buys for a .434 plain base 240-250 grain boollit.

My Redhawk is .4325 or so and I Beagled a LY-Keith (LYmans version of a Keith) 429421 per the beagling instructions on this website, I then sized them .432 with my Star Lube Sizer. they so far work far far better than 429 boolits did.

Jeremiahm
05-19-2005, 09:21 AM
Do you mean that the clinder throats on your redhawk are .4325?

What kind of accuracy are you getting with your redhawk at 100 yards? I had a redhawk in 41 before this blackhawk.

fecmech
05-19-2005, 09:42 AM
Jeremiahm--I have the same situation on my Ruger SuperB. I think it was Dan at Mountain Moulds that made me a .433 sizer die. You can "Beagle" a standard mould ( I think there is a sticky on how that is done) by putting some aluminum tape between the mould halves and that is what I do. Magnum loads using this method give me 50yd groups in the 2-3" range. I'm sure a custom mould would be a better answer but I've had great luck with "Beagling" but will someday get Dan to cut me a copy of the Lyman "Keith" that drops at .434. Good luck. Nick

Willbird
05-19-2005, 12:57 PM
I am sorry I was unclear, and yes I meant that the throats were .432, I have not slugged the bore yet.


with a 1500fps load of Lilgun I get 4"-5" groups at 50 yards, with a 1200 fps load of UNIVERSAL clays I am getting 3" or so groups at 50 yards...this is all with suspect brass, I aquired 300 or so and did sort them for headstamp but that does not ensure they are the same lot, I have some new WW brass I have designated as "match" but I have not loaded it yet. I am aware that the 1500+ fps loads of Lilgun the operator of the bullet launcher may need some practice...the redhawk is a BIG gun but it still moves around energetically while the bullet is working it's way to the end of the bbl.

I did notice tho the syndrome that MR44Man talks about in the 44 super accuracy thread, where seating force varies quite a bit ctg. to ctg. I have not settled on a way to measure that.

Also I have a new set of hornady dies and they seem to feel you don't need to be able to take an expander die apart so I have not measured it, I guess it would be .429.

If you are thinking of loading .432 boolits the hornady carbide sizer IS excellant...however the seater die while nice is not designed to work with such large ctg. So I have been seating with a 45 colt seater...how good that idea is remains to be sorted out. The throats arent going to shrink so I guess I need to fire up the toolpost grinder and rework the seater die.

The ctg. loaded with .432 boolits chamber freely in my redhawk.

personally 1200fps with a 240-250 grain is fine with me for energy level, not that I won't work on the 1500-1600 fps package but the bulk of my shooting will be 1200fps. if the first one doesnt work it is a double action revolver after all :-)

Bill

44man
05-19-2005, 03:50 PM
Hey! You are all thinking too much with the .44! My SB has .433 throats and a .430 bore. This is almost a standard size for Rugers, unlike the .45's that have small throats. I have won Ohio State IHMSA with mine (international class), have many-many 38's, 39's and 40's with it. It will still shoot one inch groups at 50 yd's if I do my part after more then 56,000 rounds. It has killed a pile of deer and does not lead the bore at all.
I USE .430 BOOLITS. Some cast boolits are .431 but I see no difference. I also shoot some pretty hard boolits. I did cut the 11 degree taper in the forcing cone but you MUST have the gauge to measure before and after cutting. The forcing cone from the factory will be just fine anyway. Mine is now sandblasted from powder but it still shoots just fine.
Jeremiahm, your gun will shoot just fine with .430 boolits. For condom bullets, the XTP is the most accurate, the silhouette bullet is next best. For cast, the LBT 320 gr. WLNGC and the LEE 310 gr. are best. For general plinking and light loads, the 250 Keith is great. It also is a good hunting boolit.
The ONLY way to get a revolver to shoot good is with proper case tension, proper primer and to work loads. I would not worry about your gun, just find what it likes and SHOOT IT.
I have enclosed a picture of my gun and a 100yd group shot with the Speer 240 gr. silhouette bullet, standard WW primer and 24 grs. of 296.

StarMetal
05-19-2005, 03:56 PM
Well 44man broke the ice. I have to agree with him. This ******** about sizing the bullet to fit the cylinder throats is just that..********. Yes, I'll agree you can't expect good results with a revolver that has smaller cylinder throats they bore and grooves of the barrel. I agree with 44man. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how good most ALL my revolvers shoot, but but i size about .001 over the groove size with EXCELLENT results. I've been lucky not to have too small cylinder throats.

I think we overwhelm alot of new people to this with all this rocket science...fit the throats, ream your throats out, cut the forcing cone, etc.....when all along like 44man says your gun as it is will probably shoot just fine.

Joe

44man
05-19-2005, 03:57 PM
I forgot to mention that the group was shot Creedmore with open sights. (Back when my eyesight was still good.) The red dot was put on after I quit IHMSA and due to old eyes, it makes it great for deer hunting. Do not expect this all the time, but the Rugers are capable of some fantastic shooting. The loading process is MUCH more important then your gun.

felix
05-19-2005, 05:45 PM
Joe, if a revolter can't make 5 boolits touch one another at 50 feet, I'm unhappy with it and then seldom shoot it again until "repaired" by hardware mods, or cartridge mods. I have noticed that bolt locking up (when primer is hit) has more to do with accuracy than having a perfect cylinder barrel relationship. ... felix

StarMetal
05-19-2005, 06:07 PM
One way to just get an idea of how your cylinder bores align with you barrel, just look at the front of the cylinder after you're done shooting cast bullets...empty gun of course. You can see a pattern around end cylinder opening and whether that pattern is centered or not. A rod for measuring it is the more perfect way to go. Another trick, empty gun again, is put a piece of aluminum foil against the receiver breech face (firing pin end) and shine a bright light in through the sides near the rear of the cylinder as to reflect off the foil, then look down through the barrel with the hammer cocked for each chamber. The human eye is amazing at seeing very small things, like I read somewhere where the eye can detect differences as small as .025. Anyways you can see if your cylinder throats are off much in relation to the barrels bore.

Joe

Bass Ackward
05-19-2005, 06:16 PM
1. Well 44man broke the ice. I have to agree with him. This ******** about sizing the bullet to fit the cylinder throats is just that..********.

2. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how good most ALL my revolvers shoot, but but i size about .001 over the groove size with EXCELLENT results.

3. I think we overwhelm alot of new people to this with all this rocket science...fit the throats, ream your throats out, cut the forcing cone, etc.....when all along like 44man says your gun as it is will probably shoot just fine.

Joe

Joe,

Ok. My turn.

1. There are many ways to achieve accuracy in a wheeler. No one method is more accurate than another unless is solves a condition. I have had guns that favored one way over all other methods. And just like a rifle, you can fool around and find something that works over time. Or you can fit your throat and have everything work better than most people can shoot. You can shoot this powder and that powder. It makes no difference. So you have more choices and more chances to find one that shoots remarkably better than the others. Maybe you get to 1" at 50. But don't kid yourself. Have realistic expectations. Consistent 2" groups at 50 is outstanding from a wheeler.

2. Prime example. :grin:

3. We do maybe tend to over analyze. Every gun should always be shot first. Rifle or handgun.

But make no bones about it. People feel that you have to have a fair rifle to shoot 2" groups with cast at 100 yards. This is 1" at 50. Life for a bullet is much more harsh in a handgun, so you have to have every thing working for you to HOPE to get close to rifle like conditions. You can either cut your forcing cone or you can shoot it smooth. You can either Taylor throat your gun or shoot one into it with erosion. You can either correct alignment or you can wear or lap it into line. But these things have to take place to get to the 1" standard.

If you have or get one, God bless ya. Hang on to it, sleep with it. Cherish it and brag your butt off. That's how strongly I feel the deck is stacked against a wheeler even with computer controlled equipment today.

Willbird
05-19-2005, 06:23 PM
Well now that the ice is broken, I think it is ******** to call things other people say ******** because you don't agree.

I know my particular revolver never performed well with cast boolits .002-.003 smaller than the throats, your mileage may vary.

however I will endeavor to NOT call what you share ********.

Bill

StarMetal
05-19-2005, 07:02 PM
Maybe I should have called it Horsehockey.

Joe

fecmech
05-19-2005, 07:36 PM
My .44 mag was shot for years as a .44 mag with mag loads using the Lyman "Keith" over 25 grs of 296 sized .430 in .434 throats. Next to no leading, machine rest 2.75" avg 50yd groups (avg of 5 10 shot groups). Fast forward to 2003 and I decide I want to tone things down and shoot my Keith about 800fps and maybe a 214 lee swc at the same speed. NOT!! Barrel leading is terrible and accuracy is also with the "sacred" load of Green Dot or any other fast powder. I think you can get away with the small bullets if you whack them in the butt with 40kpsi and bump them up but if you try to go slow with low pressure it is a different story. The first set of pictures in my thread on gas cutting is a 214 swc sized .430 shot in a .434 throat over 7 grs of Green Dot, the Keiths looked about the same. I don't think any forcing cone will correct what happened to those bullets in the cylinder. Sized .433 "sacred " load is accurate and leading disapears. Call it any kind of "hockey" you want, it works. Nick

Willbird
05-19-2005, 08:50 PM
HorseHockey is a totally differant matter :-)

it does not have nearly the odor, and the device that ejects it is not nearly as intimidating.

Bill

StarMetal
05-19-2005, 09:13 PM
And besides that if it was good enough for Colonel Potter it's good enough for us.

Joe

45 2.1
05-19-2005, 10:34 PM
The old timers in this sport always said to match the temper of your bullet to the load you use. Everyone is saying that by what they write in a way. Their method as being THE ONLY ONE doesn't hold too much water, since there is alot in print to the contrary. Other people shoot just as well with other methods thank you. Hard bullets are fine with heavy loads if you shoot steel critters, but may not be to pleasant to plink with or shoot small game with. If you like muzzle blast and everything that goes with, have at it.

buck1
05-20-2005, 12:23 AM
Before I jumped in the boat and started pouring my own , I shot many one inchish ( a new word!!) groups at 50yd sized at .429 with bought cast SWCs.
But now I size to .432 on all my 44 rugers and seem to do a bit better ....buck

leverfan
05-20-2005, 01:35 AM
You might try to find an old 429421 mould. I've got one that's a bit older than the 44 magnum itself, and it drops bullets that are .4325" when cast from wheel weights. My Redhawk just barely allows these to be pushed through the chamber throats with thumb pressure, and they work very well. The mould was an ebay steal at $24, including shipping.

The only draw back, if you can call it that, is that this old Elmer mould sometimes needs a few love taps on the hinge to drop bullets that hang up on that deep, square lube groove.

Bass Ackward
05-20-2005, 09:06 AM
The human eye is amazing at seeing very small things, like I read somewhere where the eye can detect differences as small as .025. Anyways you can see if your cylinder throats are off much in relation to the barrels bore.

Joe

Joe,

This is also in response to your PM.

Another way to tell, is to let your wheeler tell you how alignment is, or how it is going during the break in process. Of coarse this is after thought because it is a result to excess misalignment. And admittingly, it is perfectionist in nature. (nitpicky) But this is why I believe that every gun should be shot (with jacketed) awhile before any attempt to have some one correct it or to start fire lapping. I see many people get in a hurry and firelap too soon. What this does is wear the forcing cone and the cylinder throat in an oblong fashion as they try to align. The danger then becomes "consistent" pressure / velocity from each chamber should the misalignment be severe.

Run your finger nail along the the timing ring on your cylinder in both directions. If you feel a burr on the notch on one side or the other, that is caused by the cylinder fighting to align itself when shot.

I monitor this as I am breaking in a new gun and I use a crafters knife to run along the edge to keep this burr knocked down. I do it on a tangent with the top of the notch and then right along the inside of the notch. My intent is not to remove any metal providing strength. It is the neatest (from an appearance standpoint) way to do this without marring a blued finish or removing too much metal. (be patient if you try this so you don't scratch the cylinder outside the notch.) Also monitor that chamber's indexing notch on the back of the cylinder for a burr also because the pawl fights rotation against the direction the cylinder rotates IF and only if the alignment is out in this direction. Left unchecked, it can wear the pawl, again affecting the other chambers.

Of coarse this is what is all referred to as "break-in". And you really .... don't .... have to do anything but shoot it because everything will eventually equalize and .... "seat in". Shooting the gun will have everything taken care of by itself if alignment is fair to good. Sometimes this can be 1000 rounds on a chrome molly gun. Many more with cast. Stainless is far softer and breaks in faster. On my new Redhawk, (blued) I had three cylinders burr at this notch with one indexing notch on the back of the cylinder. So alignment wasn't perfect. Now I am down to one notch continuing to burr. So far, no other indexing notches are affected. This tells me that breakin for alignment is about done. If this continues much longer, I will start to fire lap because I don't want my cylinder stop to .... wear excessively in the frame either over time. And I don't want to live with the proverbial, bad chamber.

I see the break in process on a wheeler as a series of occurances that I try to "guide" and minimise any one effect to the best possible outcome for that particular revolver.

So to shoot a new gun is my first advice before you spend any money.

44man
05-20-2005, 11:15 AM
Don't get me wrong guys, everything posted here has merit and I am not going to say anyone is wrong. I do use softer boolits for light loads and this is what is needed. But most of my shooting has been with hot loads and I have been using .44's since 1956. I have owned a PILE of them. It IS always best to match boolits to the throat and I do on some calibers. For some reason I have always had fantastic accuracy from the .44 without getting too fussy so I never seen a reason to get specific boolits for it. Maybe I could shave 1/4" from my 50 yd groups with a throat size boolit, but I used to shoot pop cans, one after another, with open sights, Creedmore position, at 100 yd's. I never felt a need to change, that is why I say to shoot the guns first to see what they do. The .44 is the least fussy of all the calibers. This is one reason that no matter what other calibers I buy, I will always have at least one .44 to fall back on. I just love the things!
I will say that the .357 in its various forms is much more accurate then any caliber made, (not counting the .22 of which I have several Mark II's, but those are squirrel guns) but I have never had a need for little guns even though I owned many over the years. The Ruger .357 Max was fantastic, but like a dummy, I sold it and never found a replacement.

StarMetal
05-20-2005, 11:36 AM
Wow...how fast the fleas leave a dead rabbit. Changing your tune there alittle bit 44man. Your post contradicts itself. You say that it IS (and you made IS bigger to emphasize it) to fit the bullets to the throats, but then you go on to say it's only good for 1/4 inch better groups at 50 yards. Then you say right afte that to just shoot the gun and see what it does.

I have a Model 25 Smith in 45LC. It has .456-.457 throats. I size my bullets .452. They spring back alittle so may be .453. I use to shoot pop cans at 100 yards standing up two hand hold, one right after the other. That was when I was younger, and I'm not talking about real young, and when my eyes weren't so screwed up.

Unless the bullet doesn't come out of the cylinder mouth centered what's the sense of fitting it for the throat? What difference would it make, say in my Model 25 with the .456-.457 throats, which has a .452 groove barrel diameter, if the bullets swage down from more from that .456-.457 (if I size them throat size) then if they size down from that .453 sizing? To me the sizing down from .453 would have less bullet distortion. I have shot bullets unsized in this Model 25 and honestly couldn't see any difference. Unless there was a benchrest for pistols that you would need to try to get all the bullets into a ragged hole, I don't see where that 1/4 inch you spoke of would help that much in ordinary shooting. Now, if it shrunk groups dramatically, we'd be talking.

Joe

45 2.1
05-20-2005, 01:36 PM
That statement about the 357 being the most accurate is a real mouthfull and might be really hard for you to swallow. If you really want to find out, start shooting all the pistol calibers at really long pistol ranges (300 yards up to 600 yards and find out for yourself). You might get a real education while doing this.

StarMetal
05-20-2005, 01:45 PM
Bob

That brings up how there's mention of one pistol caliber that is noted as being really accurate. I'll give an example, the 44 special. Why wouldn't another cartridge using the same caliber bullet just be as accurate? Why would another caliber be as accurate? Or any caliber, as long as the gun it was fired from was well made, had good sights, you ammo was of good quality, and it fit the chamber, throat, and bore/groove well? Aside from ballistic coefficient and sectional densities. Like the 9mm got a bad rap and I believe it's because the guns made for it aren't match quality, nor is most the ammo. There has to be the most variations in the 9mm then any other pistol round due to all the countries that make and have made it. I just read an article on a match 9mm semi auto that cut holes like a match 45 acp.

Joe

45 2.1
05-20-2005, 02:33 PM
Bob

That brings up how there's mention of one pistol caliber that is noted as being really accurate. I'll give an example, the 44 special. Why wouldn't another cartridge using the same caliber bullet just be as accurate? Why would another caliber be as accurate? Or any caliber, as long as the gun it was fired from was well made, had good sights, you ammo was of good quality, and it fit the chamber, throat, and bore/groove well? Aside from ballistic coefficient and sectional densities. Like the 9mm got a bad rap and I believe it's because the guns made for it aren't match quality, nor is most the ammo. There has to be the most variations in the 9mm then any other pistol round due to all the countries that make and have made it. I just read an article on a match 9mm semi auto that cut holes like a match 45 acp.

Joe

Shootability and accuracy aren't the same thing. Alot of things go into an accurate gun and cartridge to make it so one can shoot it well. Out of range tolerences don't help any cartridges reputation as you noted. Truth be known, most all cartridges are accurate when set up properly in a well put up gun and consistent ammo. Long range shooting will show you where the cartridge runs out of steam depending on just what components are used and where it destabilizes.

StarMetal
05-20-2005, 03:16 PM
Bob

That makes sense, that's where the ballistics come into play about the bullet running out of steam.

Joe

44man
05-20-2005, 04:03 PM
I mention the .357 as being very accurate because it has less recoil. Something you must factor in. Remember the barrel has to be in the same exact position when the boolit leaves and as recoil increases, this is harder to achieve. Another thing about the smaller case is that case tension is easier to get. I am not saying that a larger caliber is not any less accurate, but that it is more difficult to maintain. I guess I should have explained myself better. I am sure all of you can shoot a .22 more accurately then a .475.

And 45 2.1, I shoot all of my handguns out to 500 meters and have done so with the .357 and .357 max also, they will ALL shoot that far good. I even shoot my Mark II at 200 yd's and can keep all shots on a steel chicken. Bullet drop is 53" with a 25 yd sight setting by the way. Boolit drop with the 45-70 revolver from a 100 yd setting is 26 FEET at 500 meters.

Starmetal, no contradiction because almost all of my .44's would do one inch at 50 yd's. A S&W would do 1/2". On my .45 colt, however I use a very tight boolit to throat fit or it will not group. Ditto the 45-70 and .475 Linebaugh. I just find the .44 less fussy and yes, just maybe the Ruger would do 1/2" or less with a tighter boolit. I have to ask how many guys get that kind of accuracy and how many would be happy with 2 to 5" at 25 yd's? If I had a mold for .432 boolits, I would be using it! Then again, do I really need better then what I get? I am just trying to make it easier on a new shooter by telling him the .430 boolit will be OK. Not many of us can fork out over $100 for a custom mold. Then, again, if he has to buy store bought cast boolits, (or a mold) where is he going to get some larger then .430?
If you have followed any of my posts, you will find that I only neck size my brass to keep the case centered in the chamber. This helps when the boolit is a little small. I actually have to snap each case in the chamber with my thumb. Not very good for speed loading or cowboy action! Since I only hunt deer with them now, it is just fine.
When I get time, I will make a larger mold and will be sure to post results. But, like you, my eyes have gone the wrong way, can hardly tell there is a can downrange anymore. Isn't it fun getting old?

9.3X62AL
05-20-2005, 04:25 PM
Isn't it fun getting old? Not really, but it beats the second choice all to hell.

Not trying to stir a pot here, just trying to share viewpoints accumulated in a LOT of revolver and autopistol shooting over many years. One rule of thumb--there aren't many, if any rules of thumb on platform/projectile dimensional relationships. My best results have come with matching throat diameters and boolit diameters, but other folks (like Starmetal) have had fine results doing other things. Neither mode is "right" or "wrong" per se--I offer my experiences to others as one of many ways to skin the cat. There is--as a practical matter--no way to tune out all the variables in the boolit/throat/cylinder/forcing cone relationship, so it is good to have several regimens available to address each revolver's quirks individually. I DO know that I will remain the weakest link in the ballistic equation, regardless how finely I cut the dimensions, tolerances, relationships, and measurements. I probably piss off my rifles and handguns with regularity.

44man
05-20-2005, 04:53 PM
Deputy, VERY well said! I have trouble expressing my thoughts, tend to confuse a few and you can hit the nail right on the head. Thank you for saying it the way I could not.

Jeremiahm
11-22-2010, 01:34 PM
Man, I just went back and re-read this thread after 5 years. It was an excellent reminder of some techniques I had forgot about!

Jeremiah

Wally
11-22-2010, 01:54 PM
I have a S & W Model 24 .44 Spl--has cylinder throats of .433" and a barrel at .430". I obtained a 429348 Lyman WC bullet mold that cast bullets at .434" so I fired a batch unsized & a batch sized to .431" .. no dfference in accuracy whatsoever. The MV was 963 (average). While I wish that the cylinder throats were at .430~.431", in reality it makes no difference.

MtGun44
11-22-2010, 10:33 PM
Tried out a essentially 'mechanically mint' (minor blue damage) new to me Colt 1917 Army
this weekend. It has lamentable .455 throats, but at least it is not one of the bored straight
thru as I have read that some were.

.452 normal cast loads went into 6-12", several groups at 25 yds sitting. .454 diam 452423
and GB 300 Keith at .454 went into about 3", but the much longer bearing length 300
Keith had three touching.

Finished up with 6 230 FMJ ball to POA about 6" group.

I NEVER get best or even usually even very decent groups with boolits .002-.003 under
throat diameter. My guns do best at throat diam or .001 over, but I do not use GC boolits in
revolvers, in case someone thinks that this may make a difference.

One more revolver telling me the same thing that the other ones have been telling me.

Next I beagle the 452423 up to .455 -.456. Hope they chamber.

Bill

mpmarty
11-23-2010, 08:07 PM
All of you revolver fellows have six times as much to worry about than I do with my semi auto pistols. I only have one chamber to inspect and no "forcing cone" to fret over. My rounds all chamber with the lead touching and slightly engraved by the rifling and as long as I do my part it all comes together nicely. A 10mm 200gr bullet with a BC of over .200 is a joy to shoot at long distances when it starts life at over 1200fps.