Black powder sof-iner

[Mikeski]

Does anyone know or can anyone tell me Just which of the ingredents in the lube that keeps the black powder foweling soft. I've tried working my lube with each ingredent to find one that will keep the crust from forming 3" in front of the boolit after each shot. no luck so far. buy the 5th shot the group opens up over an inch. 38/55 37Grs. Goex 3 fff. using diff. versions of 50-40 10 wax. I have the bore for the most part staying wet except for right in front of the case mouth and I'm sure it's deforming the next boolit. can anybody Help Thanks Mike

[Dan Cash]

Four things you could try right off the top: 1. Increase the charge wt.; 2. Increase compression; 3. use a felt or fiber wad; 4. switch to 2F powder. I am not familiar with 50-40-10 wax and don't have time to look it up. I use a vegetable oil/bee's wax mix for what it is worth.

[montana_charlie]

Do you use a blow tube, Mike?

[John Boy]

Mike, your powder charge for the 38-55 needs adjusting. Use FFg with 40 - 42gr depending on the bullet weight

As for the foul ... the Relative Humidity & Temperature when you shoot is the determining factor for how most or dry the foul will be. Below 40% RH - Dry Foul. Above 40% RH & moderate temperature - moist foul. Real hot and dry humidity - dry foul.

Also, there is only one true moist burning powder and that is Swiss. It is because the way they process and the Alder Blackhorn wood used to make their charcoal

Lube can help fouling texture but it is not the key factor. You didn't explain your 50-40-10 wax (lube?) so have no idea what you are using. Use of jojoba and meadow foam oil, pure neatsfoot and microcrystalline wax will help soften lubes, but again the lube is not the key factor to moist foul

[HORNET]

If your reference to a 50-40-10 lube is to Recluse's tumble-lube formula, it wouls explain your problem. It is widely accepted that the use of Alox (as in the lube) is incompatible with black powder and will result in a ring of extremely hard and hard-to-remove fouling where tjhe boolit was seated. You might try changing lube to something like Emmert's (see lube recipe stickies).

[John Boy]

Hornet, Mike could also be using this formulation. But for now, we don't know
By liquid volume -
50% beeswax
40% veggie shortnin'
10% peanut oil

And this is not a bad lube for BP

[excess650]

to John Boy:

"Also, there is only one true moist burning powder and that is Swiss"

If that were true, wouldn't the guys shooting BPCRS with Swiss be using a blowtube instead of wiping between shots? I shot BPCRS for more than 10 years and used a blowtube rather than go through the motions to wipe. With balanced loads, and good lube, and a blowtube, some of us could shoot accurate strings upwards to 40 shots when the barrel was too hot for the blowtube to be effective.

The turkey long run record of 32 was shot with Goex ffg and a blowtube in a 40-50 Sharps bottleneck. I was there to witness it along with about 50 other folks.

When shooting the 38-55 I generally used 42-43gr Goex fffg with WLR primers under the 300gr Saeco or 335gr Lyman.

As for an ingredient to keep fouling soft, try anhydrous lanolin. Combined with beeswax (as a carrier and to firm the lube) and an oil, mix 7-3-3 by weight BW-AL-O. Different oils have different affects. Dexron III ATF works well, but may leave too much moisture in the bore on humid days.

[waksupi]

I would try a boolit 1 or 2 thousandths bigger first, and a softer alloy.

[bigted]

so here is a question along with that one.......will black powder lube work fine with smokeless powder? probably a dumb question but i gotta ask

[littlejack]

I'm using my Emmerts recipe for my bp 45-70 loads and for my 45 acp and 45 colt loads.
Works great for me, BUT if you are going to shoot smokeless slugs faster than 1000 fps, you
could run into some leading.
Jack

[cajun shooter]

Tell us what your lube contains. You have received some good answers but you could do better with giving more on your end.

[montana_charlie]

you could do better with giving more on your end.
He joined up and his only post was to ask these quetions. It's been three days and we are just swapping advice among ourselves.

Do you suppose Mike forgot how to get back here?

CM

[Maven]

Maybe it's because he's away and/or no one really answered the question he asked. To wit,

"Does anyone know or can anyone tell me Just which of the ingredents in the lube that keeps the black powder foweling soft. I've tried working my lube with each ingredent to find one that will keep the crust from forming 3" in front of the boolit after each shot. no luck so far." (sic)

[waksupi]

I still think it's a size problem! :popcorn:

[John Boy]

Excess, I'm a blow tuber also but there are many BPCR shooters that feel 1 -2 wet patches and a dry one to clean the bore provides the best accuracy. Like Chevy and Ford owners. Both methods work and cannot refute your statement about blowing for long runs. Would you believe I was at Ridgway for a week this May, about 700+ rounds shooting the silhouettes and 1000yds in various rifles and only patched at the end of the for each rifle before it went back into the truck.

My 38-55 bullets are the 375166, 375166 Modified and 375300, all old Ideal bullets. Have shot a fair amount of 378674's also. Forty to 45 grs is my normal load. Here's the 1st range test of the 375166 ... http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13911&highlight=375166

As for lubes, I have tried many. Presently I am using a mutton tallow based lube that I have found to be the best yet. I have a Harry Pope lube with bayberry wax and jojoba oil that is not to shabby

[Maven]

All, So let's see if we can answer the question: We know that bullet diameter and patch thickness affect both accuracy and the odds of bore leading. We also know that humidity plays a role in bore fouling as does the brand and granulation of BP used. Now, given those factors, is the fouling kept soft by the greasiness (for lack of a better term) of the lube, e.g., Crisco, Bore Butter and its clones, et al,; by beeswax if added or some combination of the two? Based on my experience, I'm thinking that "grease" helps keep the fouling soft. Some of them apparently help prevent the build-up of BP fouling too. What say ye?

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I think that if the powder fouling from combustion combines with the lube and forms the gaseous mix being blown the bore and if it stays greasy, accuracy is not affected. As always conditions in which we shoot determine if your lube works or fails. Other than that it's sorcery.

BvT

[Mikeski]

Sorry for the delay in my returns Although I've been registered yor quite awile this is the first time i've used the BB for a problum. so yea in a way I'm a newbee. Thanks for all the responses. I work alot! that's why I took so long to thank you guys. the 50 40 10 wax is beeswax crisco and cannola oil been using it for years in my musket and smith carbine. as well as a sharps 40/65. in the 38/55 since i built it I always used pyrodex. only to find that it dammaged the rifleing Pitting. from the salts left behind after cleaning. So I went to black powder I do use Swiss 3f or 1.5 as they call it. and after pollishing the bore which I learned from this forum Thanks to all who published it The rifle is grouping good out to 50 yards.
only buy the fith shot I start getting flyers and the first patch down the bore almost comes to a stop about 3" from the breech from powder fouling. and I'm sure thats the reason for the flyers I will try all your suggestions this weekend If the Wife will let me. Mike

[Mikeski]

I should give a little more info. on the gun. It's a Rolling Block action with an Orion 375 barrel 1 in 14 twist 32" long full octigon. Single trigger is set to about 3 lbs. I'm using the RCBS Postell bullet in pure lead @ 322grs. I dip lube the boolit and clean it up in a 379 sizer die. The powred charge is 38 grs. of 3f Swiss powder. I'm leaving one greese grouve exposed to put the bore ride portion of the boolit in the rifeling. The primmer is Federal 210 and I put a slight roll crimp on the brass. I weigh every powder charge and use a 28" drop tube. The brass is w/w trimmed to same size and expanded to 375. At any rate the only commercial lube I've tried is SPG and it to is drying out just in front of the boolit. I'm getting a good lube star at the muzzel w/ most of the wax mixes I've used.
This is why I'm asking about what ingredent in the lube Keeps the spent powder soft. Thanks Again Mike

[semtav]

If you do a little research of what has been posted on various forums by a couple people that have done a lot of testing of ingredients for Black Powder, you'll find that Beeswax is one of the problems.
that is not to say Beeswax won't work, but under tough conditions, it's the Beeswax that gives up.
Most of the commercial lubes use beeswax as a carrier and they all give up in tough conditions unless you are wiping between shots..

[cajun shooter]

Semtav, KW has said that for any humidity below 30% but BW has been used for years with good results. We also don't know about the conditions that Mikeski is shooting under. I have a BW, mutton, jojoba oil and lanolin lube that works great. I think that with the info given I will go with waksupi on this. When you have a hard crust that is just ahead of the chamber it is from hot gases going by the bullet base. When you have that same crust about three inches from the end of your barrel it points to a lube running out of gas.

[HORNET]

Mikeski, if you haven't already done so, you ought to check down in the Black Powder Cartridge Forum. There are a few discussions and some testing threads that you might find interesting and relevant.

[Mikeski]

Thanks for all your Help And Yes the wifie is gonna let me shoot on saturday. After the honny do list of corse. I'll post my results Mike

[semtav]

Semtav, KW has said that for any humidity below 30% but BW has been used for years with good results. We also don't know about the conditions that Mikeski is shooting under. I have a BW, mutton, jojoba oil and lanolin lube that works great. I think that with the info given I will go with waksupi on this. When you have a hard crust that is just ahead of the chamber it is from hot gases going by the bullet base. When you have that same crust about three inches from the end of your barrel it points to a lube running out of gas.

Cajun
I fully agree with your statement. But you shoot in higher humidity.
I Didn't base my statement just on KW or DanT's writings, Like everything else I read on these boards, I have to experience and test it for myself before I believe it.
My experience with SPG was excellent up until it got hot and dry. I still use it, but unless I am shooting real low velocity loads or the humidity is real high, I know it can fail if I don't wipe.

As far as Waksupi's statement about fouling at the chamber, I agree that it may be one of the reasons, but not convinced it could be the only reason. But the alloy is definitely worth exploring first.

Brian

[cajun shooter]

As far as we know he might be also as I see no information on were he shoots. As far as SPG goes he should go back to using the lube that provided the lube Star.

[nanuk]

the 50 40 10 wax is beeswax crisco and cannola oil

buy the fith shot I start getting flyers and the first patch down the bore almost comes to a stop about 3" from the breech from powder fouling.

It's a Rolling Block action with an Orion 375 barrel 1 in 14 twist 32" long full octigon.

I'm using the RCBS Postell bullet in pure lead @ 322grs.

I dip lube the boolit and clean it up in a 379 sizer die.

The powred charge is 38 grs. of 3f Swiss powder. I'm leaving one greese grouve exposed to put the bore ride portion of the boolit in the rifeling.

use a 28" drop tube.

The brass is w/w trimmed to same size and expanded to 375.


have you slugged your bore?

what is the internal diameter of the fired neck?

if your brass is too tight, perhaps it is swaging down the boolit before it even gets to the rifling

[stubshaft]

In my ROA I cooked up a loob just to use over the ball to keep the fouling soft. Because of the low velocity of the ball I wasn't too worried about leading, but more concerned with the crusty buildup of powder residue.

I had an epiphany and melted shortening over a double boiler and added sodium stearate (ivory soap) to stiffen up the mixture. It works great for my purposes. It is stiffer than plain crisco and keeps the fouling soft, with the added benefit of being easily washed off.

So, in answer to your initial question I would say that the "grease/oil" component keeps the fouling soft.