Bullet Diameters?

[bucksnort]

I've read that the bullet should be patched to BORE diameter, and also, the bullet should be patched to GROOVE diameter? Are they both correct? Or is it somewhere in between?
Thanks.

[Don McDowell]

They both work, but the bore diameter is better known for the accuracy advantage. It also allows for seating further out , thus creating a bit more powder capacity. Also patched to bore will work better for hunting loads, as they shouldn't need wiped as often as groove diameter.

[calaloo]

Here is the deal. If you are going to shoot smokeless powder you must patch to groove diameter or a thousandth or so larger as smokeless does not obturate the bullet very much. If you are going to use black powder you can patch to bore diameter because the bullet will be "bumped up" to fit the groove diameter. You may, with black powder, also shoot a groove diameter bullet but will have to clean between shots as the fouling will hinder loading the larger bullet.

[bucksnort]

Gents,
Thanks for the info. I will only be shooting BP. I did buy (from BACO) a box, each, of some .40 and .45 cal bullets, before doing my homework.

The next go-around will be using 'bore' diameter bullets.

Thanks again.

[Yellowhouse]

If you're shootin a Shiloh .40 or one that has .400 bore or smaller you'll find it almost impossible to find a paper thin enough to wrap those .395 to seat out like they should. .392 is about right but I know of no source commercially.

[bucksnort]

Yellowhouse,
I am shooting Shilohs. In order to get the correct diameter bullet, can the pp naked bullet be run through a sizing die on my Lyman luber? I think BACO carries every diameter know to man.
Thanks, ED

[Yellowhouse]

I've never done that to a nekkid PPB but presume you could. Some actually wrap the bullet first and then run it through a sizer with satisfactory results. No lube applied of course.

Sounds like you are in the market for a proper mold.

[bucksnort]

What I'll do first is, get some PPBs from BACO, just to see what flies best. Then I'll invest in some molds.

[Yellowhouse]

Take a look: http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16346

[Lead pot]

I get better accuracy from patched bullets that are .003-4 over bore diameter.
But these need to be loaded in straight walled cases were you have room to adjust the seating depth so you can close the breach. These have always shot the best for me.

For the bottle neck cases this is not a way to go because the bullet base is below the case neck so patching the bullet at bore diameter or just below is a must.
Just a couple days ago I was on a hunt and used the PP bullet that was patched at bore diameter and it worked good got the job done but I also had some greasers with me in my pocket in case I needed a fast second load. I reached for one and pulled out a PP instead and pushed it in the chamber with out looking and needles to say I would not chamber and I could not pull the stuck bullet out that was in the throat. Fortunately I did not need a second shot.
A friend handed me his rifle when he saw I had a problem.
Make sure you have loads that will chamber in a fouled throat when you hunt and keep them in the other pocket.[smilie=f:

[bucksnort]

Lead Pot,
Any PP shooting will be done from a straight-walled round (.40-70, .45-70, 90, 110). I often wondered about the patched bullet being a tad over-size by about .001 - .002. Getting one of my Shilohs to shoot PPBs will be my project for this winter.
ED

[Lead pot]

Well try it both ways and see what works best for you.
When you patch over bore, seat your bullets just off the lands so you can fully chamber the round with out the use of one of those cartridge seating tools. You dont want to use one of those if possible.

Kurt

[martinibelgian]

FWIW, I've been experimenting with PP in a 45-70 - groove diameter, or nearly so. Bullets are .458, the groove diameter .461 (Metford segmental rifling). The trick seems to be to find the right balance between powder charge and bullet alloy. As I'm using a pretty hard alloy, I'm also using a heavy powder charge (for calibre, at least).
Bullet weighs 536grs, is 1.5" long and cast in 16:1 alloy. Powder charge is about 76grs of 1 1/2Fg Swiss with a bit of compression in a win. case.
With a 20:1 alloy, I found I needed to lower the charge to about 72grs for optimum results.
The chamber has been throated for PP though, eliminating the 45 degree transition angle (Thanks, Kurt!). Results? If I do my thing, it will shoot a ragged hole in the target.
I'm still tweaking the load a bit (overprimer wads, necksizing or not, patch length, lubing or not etc.), but I believe I now have a dedicated PP rifle.
I can get consistently about 2 MOA groups at 75 meters, shooting with sling, no rest, so I'm pretty happy - as that means mechanical accuracy is probably quite a bit better...
When all of that has been 'tweaked', then I'll try again to shoot PP dirty (with accuracy, that is!), now that'll be a challenge...

[Lead pot]

Here are some undamaged recovered bullets that were the same diameter before they were patched. The alloy was I think 1/18 I dont remember for sure anymore and the records were lost, but a harder alloy will have less upset and less engraving. The diameters were changed using different paper thickness.
Study this photo and think what bullet will get top rotation to hold accuracy at long range,
100 or 200 yards wont matter much if you are shooting at rocks or bowling pins a poor bullet will still hit at that range.

Kurt

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0223.jpg

[martinibelgian]

Kurt,
I completely agree - any bullet that won't take the rifling will cause grief at longer ranges - which is why I start out with a pre-expanded bullet...

[longbow]

Okay, I have to ask a question here.

Bear in mind that I am not a BP cartridge shooter and have done limited paper patching for smokeless.

To do with boolit diameters:

I understand the idea of patching to bore size and bumping up using BP but I have to ask ~ why not use a two diameter boolit that will result in a bore diameter or slightly larger patched nose and a groove diameter or slightly larger base where the boolit is inside the cartridge?

Looking at Lead pot's photo, it is pretty obvious that all the boolits show more engraving at the base than on the nose and most notably from 0.002" under to 0.001" under.

My understanding is that you patch to bore to allow seating the nose into the rifling then allow the base to bump up to groove (throat?) diameter at firing to seal. Since the goal is to allow seating into the rifling with some allowance for fouling a two diameter boolit would accomplish that and eliminate the need to bump up.

The difference in diameters would be quite small and paper patching should easily accommodate that with its stretch. 303guy and Zeke have both patched two diameter boolits successfully and with no problems.

Just curious.

Longbow

[Kenny Wasserburger]

And they do it with Smokless,

Totally different kind of powder and totally different results.

KW
The Lunger

PS,

When I see 1/2 to 3/4 MOA Groups at 200 yards I get interested. And I have shot a touch over 1/2 MOA at 200 yards in a actual match with PP and Black Powder.

[longbow]

Kenny I understand the differences in powder but can you tell me why a two diameter boolit would not work with BP?

Don't misunderstand, I am not trying to tell you this would work better than what you are doing (and very successfully at that). I am asking why it wouldn't work.

Longbow

[martinibelgian]

Longbow,

Being a cast bullet shot with BP, it would bump up anyway - because it has the room to do so, it's that simple. Why would it stop when reaching the smaller diameter section? Could it be made to work? Most probably. Would it bring any advantage over shooting bore or groove dia.? Who knows, but I would doubt so.

[Don McDowell]

Longbow they did that way back when. Alot of what they did with paper patching hasn't caught completely back up to us 100 some odd years later.
Here's a bullet poured from a mould Old West built from an original Sharps cartridge broken down.
It's .435 at the base , it will work in both 45 (with thick paper) and 44 cartridges (thin paper). I haven't been able to get true target accuracy out of it (but that doesn't mean it can't be done) but it does work fine for hunting.
When poured from pure lead the nose section will bump up enough to see light rifling marks on recovered bullets.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/paperpatch.jpg

[longbow]

Don:

That is exactly what I was thinking.

I just wondered why an "uncontrolled" bump up would be preferable to having a groove diameter base. The patched to bore diameter nose would give all the same benefits as full diameter patched to bore but the base would already be at patched to groove diameter.

I agree that the pressure would still make the lead plastic and it would bump up but the amount would be very small and it would simply flow to form fit to the grooves.

We have people using patched to bore diameter (seems like the most popular method) and people using patched to groove diameter like martinibelgian and montana_charlie. It just occurred to me that I had not seen anything on a two diameter boolit that would seem (to me anyway) to give the same benefits as both styles and no disadvantage.

After some more digging on the internet I found information that states that some old Sharps rounds were tapered to provide a nose at patched to bore and a base at patched to groove. There was also a statement that some had a parallel section of nose at patched to bore then tapered to a patched to groove base. Of course I am not sure of the authenticity of the info (I read it on the internet so it must be true... right?).

Also, that boolit you show with the cup base is another feature I would have thought would be a benefit, especially if anything less than full loads were used, just to ensure base expansion and sealing (and a very neat wrapped base ~ no tail and no wrinkles). However, I do not see much mention of cup base being used either so I am guessing there is not much if any benefit and maybe some disadvantages.

I know that you guys that fold the wrap at the base do an amazingly smooth job but for fumble fingers like me that had wrapped with a tail the cup base seemed like a good idea.

Anyway, I guess the question has been answered. I was curious so thought I would ask those more knowledgeable than myself.

It has been done (not much hasn't been tried) but may not offer any advantages over other methods.

If I ever get a BP cartridge rifle (I would love to own a Shiloh Sharps) I will have to make a two diameter mould and give it a try. Whether I can shoot well enough to determine a an accuracy advantage between different boolit styles may be the question.

Thanks for the responses. You just can't ask a question around here that someone doesn't have an answer for. The knowledge base here is tremendous.

Take care all.

Longbow

[Don McDowell]

Rcbs has been selling tapered patched moulds in 45 and 40 for years. They are bore sized before wrapping at the base and then taper down. I've not talked to anybody that had any real great success with those.
I prefer cupped based bullets to flat, they just seem to shoot better for me, and it's easier to keep them wrapped tight due to the holding action of folding the paper into the hollow.

[martinibelgian]

Hmm... I had Brooks cut me tapered mould, and it does seem to work well in the limited testing I did with it. Well, but no better than a parallel-sided mould. I think it is time I get it out again and do some more testing with it...

[Lead pot]

One of my winter projects is testing and recovering undamaged bullets to see what different diameters and alloy temper works best for the nose of a PP bullet.
I only worked with the few dual diameter bullets that Don sent me to try out and they did not shoot to what I would use for a match load.
What I found looking at undamaged recovered bullets that the nose did not upset evenly, nore on one side than the other. This could have happen with a tight base and the long reduced portion of the nose, or to loose the way I patched them or the temper of the alloy. I didn't have enough to get a good evaluation.
One thing shooting black powder is that the nose of the bullet gets set back more so then the base gets pushed forward because the base is supported more by the tight fit in the bore or groove if patched that way.
Some of the bullets with a say creedmoor type nose that has a lot of support from the diameter of the reduced bore riding section will slump back as much as 70-80 thousands and the money bullet type of a ogive radius might bend and gets set back more if the alloy is to soft.
With smokeless powder you will get by with a lot more because the progressive burn of the powder but that is also bad for a lead bullet of bad fit in relation to the bore groove resulting with severe gas cuts and patch burn through. The smokeless powder needs a tight fitting bullet to prevent these problems and the two diameter bullet would work great for this purpose.
Dont take me wrong I have tapered and two stage swaged and cast bullets that shoot good but not what I would call great.
You find the alloy temper to any bullet it will do a good job. The old standard Gov. bullet is about the most forgiving bullet which ever design smokeless or black.

[Don McDowell]

I think with the radically tapered or dual diameter bullets , the tight chambers of the original and gentle leads of the original guns are more apt to give good accuracy than with the chambers we have today. If those bullets aren't lined perfectly with the bore they're going to get skewed in one direction or the other and not get a completely centered trip down the hole.
Harder alloy might make a bit of difference, but this dual diameter bullet will shoot minute of antelope and elk to as far as I care to shoot...
For stuff beyond that I have the creedmoor styled bullet.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

For top accuracy MOA is what I try for, Patch to bore and one diameter bullet patched up to .001 over bore. Works quite well.


KW
The Lunger

[longbow]

Lead pot:

I am guessing the winter project involves shooting into snow banks.

I do that here and have learned a lot from recovered boolits and shotgun slugs.

We get lots of snow here (sometimes around 4' deep on the range) and the range is good and level with soft sandy surface so even when boolits or slugs take a bounce under the snow damage is usually minimal. Often I recover boolits in the spring that look like they could be shot again (except for the perfect rifling on them).

These recovered boolits have taught me a lot about fit and gas cutting (well okay then those don't have perfect rifling). Also, as you mentioned, slumping and compression/collapse can be found in some recovered boolits.

I think some people think I am a little strange when I look for boolits but they can think what they want. I find an amazing number of my boolits and slugs in the spring and just about always learn something from them.

Longbow

[Lead pot]

Your right Long bow !!

I see that your at Castlegar, seems like I was there once or seen a road sign with that name on it when I was at the Kootenay National Park.
Nice place.

Kurt

[longbow]

Yep, it is nice! I moved here from Vancouver in 1981 and have never regretted leaving the city. I got laid off in the mid '80's so moved up North for 3 years then came back because I couldn't think of a better place to be.

Where are you?

Longbow

[Lead pot]

Way up in the North west corner of Illinois.

[longbow]

I'd guess you get a bit of snow there.

I hope you post the recovered boolit results next spring. I will be interested on what turns up.

I don't have a rifle I can load up with a two diameter paper patched boolit over black to test results or I would make a mould and try it. It would probably take a better shot than me to determine accuracy differences at long range anyway.

I have lusted after a Shiloh Sharps for some time but they are out of my price range right now.

Maybe one day.

Longbow

[1874Sharps]

I had a custom mold built by Lee for my 45-70 in 520 grain that casts a tapered 0.448" to 0.442" boolit. When patched up it gives a boolit about 0.456" to 0.448". This allows for the base to be large enough that a taper crimp will hold on the the boolit tightly for field and hunting use in a cartridge belt and a nose that will seat well into the leade and bore. For me, seeking a hunting application, this was the best of both worlds (I do not shoot matches). The boolits shoot quite well, too. Patching takes a little getting used to, as the patch must be stretched a little over the taper so that it ends up right at the terminal end, but it is not hard to do. I shot this boolit over smokeless powder just to see if it would shoot well and it gave a little less than 2 MOA at 100 yards, which is not fantastic, but not bad. It gives better than 1.5 MOA with BP.

[Don McDowell]

Any crimp with a patched bullet is usually bad juju.
Take one of your loaded rounds and put it in a bullet puller. When the bullet comes out look at the patch. If it's got a mark or a tear in it, the same thing will be happening to the fired rounds only much more violent.