Trapdoor rifle ,cast bullets and smokeless powder

[catkiller45]

I am not sure if I am posting in the correct place or not,but do hope I can get some honest answers to some of my questions here..I know some places will not answer unless you really bug them,so here goes nothing...

I have an 1884 TD which I want to get to shooting..I am having NO luck with Goex powder and I am not going to order Swiss or any other..As I know the Goex does work in my Sharps rifle..

And I have several tons of wheel weights to make tons of bullets with,and lots of soft lead to boot..Just no tin to use,yet..

So I am looking for some smokeless advice to use..I know there are several hazards to this,but I have been loading for years..I am not saying I can not make a mistake either..Things do happen..And there are several books written about the use of nitro powders in the rifle..

I am looking for some one with lots of experince in this field..And would like some advice on what powders to try with the cast bullets..My rapine bullet is over bore size at .4605..And yes I have slugged the bore..And it measures approx. .4595 inch's.....So If I am not asking too much,please feel free to pass along your wisdom...Thank you,,John:drinks:

[45 2.1]

I am looking for some one with lots of experince in this field..And would like some advice on what powders to try with the cast bullets..My rapine bullet is over bore size at .4605..And yes I have slugged the bore..And it measures approx. .4595 inch's.....So If I am not asking too much,please feel free to pass along your wisdom...Thank you,,John:drinks:

Cast your boolits very soft 30:1 to 40:1 equivalent hardness. 1/2WW and 1/2 PB will get you there. Try the lubed unsized boolit, does it chamber? If so shoot it that way. Crimp lightly over front of front band. The Redding profile crimp die is especially good in that regard. TD have a three groove barrel and different boolit diameter requirements, did you use an anvil block to determine that bore/groove size, if not then its probably off. LEEs 405 gr. hollow base boolit is a good try here also, most cast over 0.460". Get Wolfe's book on the Trapdoor. Check out the Lyman Trapdoor loadings, SR 4759 is very good in the 4570.

[Buckshot]

..............I have an 1884 TD and have never had a problem with it shooting smokless and plain ole WW metal. Two other friends, one with a Cadet and another with a 'Monkey Shines" carbine also did very well with their, using them often to compete in our clubs 200 meter silhuette matches.

Two of my favorite boolits are the RCBS 45-405 & the 300gr, both of which are GC designs. Another is the Lyman (I forget the number) a 385gr RNPB design. There is no trick to shooting the TD. So long as your slugs are correctly sized or correct unsized, and the rifle is capable of good accuracy you'll GET good accuracy.

The only caution with the TD is to be mindfull of the pressures your loads produce. They always talk about how weak the TD design is/was, and compared to a modern bolt action it IS weak. However it was definetely strong enough for it's intended loads and served very well as the first line rifle for 20 years with no glaring problems, and actually soldiered on in 2nd line units until after the turn of the century.

Powders I've used in my TD have been Unique, 2400, SR4759, IMR and H 4227, and IMR & H4198. Off the top of my head I believe the max pressure is 28K. Several sources list loads for the 3 groups of rifles commonly shooting the 45-70 cartridge as listed by Ken Waters. There will be loads listed specificly for the TD that are safe in it.

Just to name one, my favorite load with the RCBS 405gr slug is 28.0grs of 4198.

.................Buckshot

[mooman76]

The Lee load manual actually has some load data specific to Trap door. I have used it in my 1873 with Unique. You need to work up loads slowly as usual being extra careful. I seen presure signs when I got up to 14 g. of unique with cow filler. None without. I was using the Lee 405g. hollow based bullet. I have a Lyman 325g hollow point yet to try. Iwant to work up some loads using Trailboss powder because it is so bulky.

[44man]

The most accurate load I found for a friends original trapdoor was the Rapine 500 gr gov't boolit, ( mine is .460,) unsized, Felix or carnaube red and 38 gr's of 3031. It hit right at point of aim at 50 yd's and he killed a lot of deer with it. Recoil is very nice and the stock does not punch me in the cheekbone.
He brought over some loads the gunsmith up town made him with the 457193, 405 gr boolit and a load of 4198. They hit very high and scattered all over the paper. I almost needed a shoulder pad on my face to protect it from the stock.
I tried my 317 gr boolit from my BFR with 40 gr's of 3031 and put 5 in one ragged hole but they were way below the bullseye. Since the sights were not adjustable, the rapine was the choice. Those guns shoot great!

[catkiller45]

Well,thanks for the replys. I figured you guys would come through for me...

To answer about the bullet sized it was measure by myself and a machinest friend of mine..So I think it has to be darn close..

Are you using a taper crimp on the smokeless loads??

I suppose I will use the Rapine bullets..I also have the Lyman round nose at around 527 grain from a mix of 50-50 WW's and lead..Once again thanks for your replys..John

[44man]

It,s been a while since I loaded them, my friend moved to North Carolina and I don't remember crimping them. I think I did, very lightly to remove the flare. Old age ya know.

[kodiak1]

Load mine with 5744 and 535 Grain Postell Bullets. Have even used C.W Filler a few times.
Use the same bullets and .60 Vegiwad with black
Seems to shoot the best with smokeless but I haven't spent a ton of time with it with black. It will still shoot 2 - 2 1/2" at 100 yds with black.
Keep shootin Ken

[catkiller45]

kEN----Are you talikg about the trapdoor rifle with the postell bullet..If so I have that one also..John

[NickSS]

My favorit smokeless load for my Trapdoor is 26 gr of 5744 and a Lee H B 405 gr cast from 50-50 WW and pure lead. It shoots into around 2 inches at 100 yards in my 1873 TD

[catkiller45]

As soon as I get all my chores done here,I will be shooting my TD 1884 rifle..
Got to get some painting done and another cord or twoof wood split and stacked up..I wil try to post my finding here if possible..Thanks to all of you for your replys...John

[catkiller45]

What is a good alloy for a hunting bullet...45 and 30 cal with a gas check(30 cal)

[waksupi]

What is a good alloy for a hunting bullet...45 and 30 cal with a gas check(30 cal)

Catkiller, I use wheel weights for pretty much everything. If I need real soft ones, I cast them a day or two before I need them, and they will test as nearly pure lead. By heat treating at various temperatures, you can vary the hardness considerably. I can't tell you about expansion, as I have only recovered one, from a buffalo from the .358 Win, and it was deformed from hitting the neck bones. Everything else has sailed right on through, from 6.5X55, to .30's, to .45-70, to .44 magnum. And they all killed very well.

[njmj]

I shoot mostly BPCR silhouette. With black powder the most important thing I've found to maintain accuracy is to manage the bp fouling. You just can't keep running bullet after bullet over the fouling and expect good accuracy. Either use a blow tube to put moisture into the fouling or use a damp patch. You can use just plain water, spit, or a little water soluble oil mixed with water. It doesn't seem to matter what you use as long as you soften the fouling. The problem with the trapdoor is you can't get a rigid rod down the barrel from the breech end. Either get a flexible delrin rod or use a blowtube. Goex doesn't give quite the velocity that Swiss does grain for grain but I refuse to buy the yuppy powder too. Goex is good 'nuff fo me. NJMJ

[njmj]

I shoot mostly BPCR silhouette. With black powder the most important thing I've found to maintain accuracy is to manage the bp fouling. You just can't keep running bullet after bullet over the fouling and expect good accuracy. Either use a blow tube to put moisture into the fouling or use a damp patch. You can use just plain water, spit, or a little water soluble oil mixed with water. It doesn't seem to matter what you use as long as you soften the fouling. The problem with the trapdoor is you can't get a rigid rod down the barrel from the breech end. Either get a flexible delrin rod or use a blowtube. Goex doesn't give quite the velocity that Swiss does grain for grain but I refuse to buy the yuppy powder too. Goex is good 'nuff fo me. NJMJ

[catkiller45]

Yuppy Powder--Guess I never thought of that before..My thoughts as well..I can;t see spending the money to make,as you say,some yuppy rich.LOL...

Thanks for the kind replys men...Johnny

[44man]

I am lucky, I pay a price for Swiss that many pay for Goex. Goex is cheap for me but I don't like it as much as Swiss.