Newbie to molds and casting

[/k/anadian]

Hello, I'm having my gunsmith turn an old beat up sporterized Pattern 14 Enfield I bought second hand into a 45-70 bolt gun. I want to cast bullets for it, as .458 heavy grain bullets are expensive and hard to find, especially here. Looking for a 400 and a 500 grain mold to give me the hardest possible bullets that I can gas check and possibly moly lube. Don't really know where to start, I don't want to pay too much for a mold, and I'd like the mold to be steel.

Really thinking about 500gr lead as I don't think a 400gr bullet will leave a clean, unleaded barrel when it's doing 2100+. I think the 500gr bullets won't be going as fast and will tend to lead less.

[cobbmtmac]

/k/anadain
First, welcome aboard. I,m not the one to guide you on 45-70's. I am sure you will get some very good advise very soon.

You can/should keep checking "Swappin and Sellin" for a good deal on a mould as they do come up.

Again, welcome aboard,

[home in oz]

Midway USA sells molds. They are out of Missouri.

[onondaga]

Welcome. I shoot and experiment a lot with cast bullets in my .458 Win Mag Colt Sauer Grand African Rifle. Gas checks are used to seal gasses when soft alloy bullets are wanted for expansion but soft alloys bullets will leak gas blow by at pressures higher than about 10% less than the alloy yield strength in PSI of the bullet causing accuracy loss. So, the gas check cures the problem of accuracy loss from blow-by with soft alloys.

If your application is not concerned with expansion of the bullet you don't need gas checks on a hard alloy, you can simply use plain base bullets with a very hard alloy like straight Linotype alloy at near the velocities you mention with a milder pressure propellant like H4895 or IMR4895 and likely get accuracy by tweeking the charge below the velocity neighborhood you are wanting. Solid heavy bullets like that are good for putting holes in fire hydrants and engine blocks but they don't expand and knock big animals over. I am curious what your application and desired effect is.

If you are wanting this load for Moose, Grizzly, Polar Bear, Lion, or Whales etc., a gas-checked bullet from straight wheel weight or a little softer alloy will actually mushroom and punch these animals down at near the velocity you mention instead of merely piercing them and making them very angry while unethically causing a lengthy suffering of the animal.

An alloy of half pure soft lead and half WW cast bullets with a gas check is most popular as this combo will give 100% expansion mushroomed bullets on game at ranges to about 150 yards at velocities of about 1900 fps with 4895 in the 45-70 cartridge.

Faster burning powders than 4895 (like 4198, REL #7 and faster) can get you those velocities but at the cost of much higher pressures that cast bullets and rifles don't like. So propellant selection is also very important with cast bullets. Generally select propellants for cast bullets that are recommended for the bullet weight you wish that have the lowest pressure near the velocity you desire.

The maximum I am seeing for a modern rifle in 45-70 with a 500 grain bullet is 52 grains H4895 yielding 1679 fps velocity with a jacked bullet. If your rifle will handle that pressure with a Linotype bullet or gas checked WW bullet the velocity will be faster as lead bullets are faster with less pressure than jacketed. Aiming higher than that for velocity is dangerously wrong and you may see pressure problems before that with your rifle. Work up load slowly starting at 45.8 grains H4895 yielding 1498 fps and see how your accuracy changes as you work up the load.

[/k/anadian]

@onondaga

I will be using jacketed soft points for hunting.

Lead is for targets. I want to simulate the recoil of the hunting loads by shooting heavy, fast bullets with less price. I also heard gas checks protect the soft lead base of the bullet to reduce lead deposits in the barrel. Powder used will be H4198, and 500gr at over 1800ft/s makes me greatly concerned with leading in the barrel. I want to reduce leading as much as possible with hard alloys, lubes and whatever else possible.


@cobbmtmac: I will look at the equipment exchange, thank you.

@homeinoz: The question is what of mold is good and inexpensive while making heavy .458 bullets, I can find a supplier in Canada as Midway USA would be expensive in shipping and all.

Thanks guys.

[onondaga]

Gas checks do have a scavenging effect to prevent leading but bullet lubricant is much more important to keep the lead from shaving off your bullets in the first place. I use the 45-45-10 mentioned frequently on these forums and recommend it or straight Lee Liquid Alox tumble lube.

Gas checked 50/50 PB/WW bullets in a 45/70 expand better on game than jacketed bullets could hope to. My first recommendation would be the Lee 457 340F for your 45-70 for hunting or practicing with the same inexpensive load. Mine cost out at 29 cents per round even including the filler I use that is more expensive than powder. Yours will be less per round. I shoot it at 1610 fps verified in my Sauer .458 WM and wouldn't hesitate using it as my preferred load for Grizzly Bear. That is a 45/70 load and I use it with a filler in my .458 WM. Technically it is a reduced load for the .458. This is a plain base bullet and I cast it in WW. The load groups less than 1 inch @ 50 yd. consistently in my rifle and still has over 1000 foot pounds of energy way out at 200 yards! The Ballistic Filler (BPI Original) forms a gas check in my particular load, due to the volume used and prevents gas jetting up to the accuracy sweet spot point I load at. One more grain powder and my groups begin to open up.

Range shooting with that load I pull a Hoppe's Bore Snake through the barrel every 5 shots and clean with Hoppe's Elete Gel at home and have ZERO leading. I typically fire 50 to 100 rounds per month with that rifle/load combination to stay in shape with my favorite.

Also switching back and forth between jacketed and cast bullets will likely destroy your bore by eliminating your ability to ever really get it clean with copper fouling soldering itself to lead fowling without extreme meticulous bore cleaning between changes to remove every trace of either copper or lead. With ballistic velocity and ballistic heat , these two metals bond at the atomic level, form a new alloy and braze to your bore .





.

[HangFireW8]

Lead is for targets. I want to simulate the recoil of the hunting loads by shooting heavy, fast bullets with less price. I also heard gas checks protect the soft lead base of the bullet to reduce lead deposits in the barrel. Powder used will be H4198, and 500gr at over 1800ft/s makes me greatly concerned with leading in the barrel. I want to reduce leading as much as possible with hard alloys, lubes and whatever else possible.

Anadian, to keep things simple, we call jacketed bullets "bullets" (or j-words), and cast bullets "boolits". That way we don't always have to qualify which we are writing about.

1,800 fps is well within the speed limit of cast lead, as long as they fit well. Once you get your mold, and before you get your sizer, you will have to slug your bore and measure the slug. You'll need to size your cast boolits at least between half and 1 thousandths larger than your bore size. (Two thou's is OK as well). It is the early gas seal provided by the marginally oversized boolit that prevents leading in the barrel throat.

Leading near the end of the barrel in high velocity loads is prevented by either using gas checks or hard alloys. 1,800 fps is no problem for gas checks, and within the range of possibility for plain bases. For simplicity I would recommend starting with a gas check mold, as the cost of gas checks is trivial compared to jacketed bullets.

What I'm getting at here is, you don't have to go extremely hard to get to 1,800 fps in .458 to prevent leading. A gas check on Wheel weights with a little tin, the universal recipe around here, will get you there no problem- as long as boolit fit is good. You can also get there with plain based boolits, for example with water dropped wheel weights and/or add in some linotype.

-HF

[/k/anadian]

Anadian, to keep things simple, we call jacketed bullets "bullets" (or j-words), and cast bullets "boolits". That way we don't always have to qualify which we are writing about.

1,800 fps is well within the speed limit of cast lead, as long as they fit well. Once you get your mold, and before you get your sizer, you will have to slug your bore and measure the slug. You'll need to size your cast boolits at least between half and 1 thousandths larger than your bore size. (Two thou's is OK as well). It is the early gas seal provided by the marginally oversized boolit that prevents leading in the barrel throat.

Leading near the end of the barrel in high velocity loads is prevented by either using gas checks or hard alloys. 1,800 fps is no problem for gas checks, and within the range of possibility for plain bases. For simplicity I would recommend starting with a gas check mold, as the cost of gas checks is trivial compared to jacketed bullets.

What I'm getting at here is, you don't have to go extremely hard to get to 1,800 fps in .458 to prevent leading. A gas check on Wheel weights with a little tin, the universal recipe around here, will get you there no problem- as long as boolit fit is good. You can also get there with plain based boolits, for example with water dropped wheel weights and/or add in some linotype.

-HF

Right, I have to get used to that. Sorry. Barrel is new and good quality, so it will be .458 bore diameter. This is the info I need! Thanks man. For a 500gr gas check boolit mold, what company would you recommend? There are many out there and I just want a simple, cheap mold.

[HangFireW8]

Barrel is new and good quality, so it will be .458 bore diameter.

Huh? Why do you assume that?

I've slugged more than a dozen bores, only one or two came out "correct"!

I have an FN .30-06, the bore is the very definition of new, smooth and perfect. A real beauty inside and out. It mikes a perfect .3100" in the grooves and .3000" on the lands, on all three slugs, throat, through and muzzle. Some quality, huh? Only the .3100" is supposed to be .3080.

Never assume.

-HF

[/k/anadian]

Huh? Why do you assume that?

I've slugged more than a dozen bores, only one or two came out "correct"!

I have an FN .30-06, the bore is the very definition of new, smooth and perfect. A real beauty inside and out. It mikes a perfect .3100" in the grooves and .3000" on the lands, on all three slugs, throat, through and muzzle. Some quality, huh? Only the .3100" is supposed to be .3080.

Never assume.

-HF

Hunh. I tend to assume that Shilen lives up to it's quality control standards... "Bore diameter uniformity and size within .0003 of an inch"

Might get it slugged, just to be thorough.

[Echo]

/K/anadian, why are you married to 4198? You have had good advice to use a slower powder (4895), yet you seem to insist on using 4198.

Many older loading manuals used fast powder, sometime slow pistol powder, for their cast boolit rifle loads. The cast community has shown that to be unnecessary, and slower powders are often more appropriate.

[/k/anadian]

I don't think I can go too slow with an 18" barrel, specially with the hotness of load I like. I've also bought the powder already and don't have all that much money for a new tub. I've also fired my buddy's 450 marlin, he reloads using that powder and it's been just dreamy in every characteristics.

[HangFireW8]

Hunh. I tend to assume that Shilen lives up to it's quality control standards... "Bore diameter uniformity and size within .0003 of an inch"

Might get it slugged, just to be thorough.

Well yes, Shilen makes a very good barrel, I enjoy mine. :)

Using your example, if it is on the tight side, .457-.0003 = .4567", you could use a .457 sizer, which is cheap and available lightly used, as many people buy these and then discover they need larger.

If your barrel mikes .457+.0003 = .4573", you'll want to go to a .458" sizer, which is certainly available but more hotly contested on a certain well-known auction site.

But, price and availability aside, the fact that you have a choice of two different sizers in order to round-up to the nearest larger thousandth, means you still need to slug your barrel. You could always just go for the larger of the two sizers (.458"), which could spark a lively debate as to just how closely a boolit should, or shouldn't, be sized to a bore.

On the other hand, if you're on the Plus side and use a .457" sizer, you could be heading for trouble. Or not. 45/70 is a very forgiving cartridge for cast bullets, but you do plan on pushing the velocity limits, so it is best to stay with good practice and go very slightly oversized.

-HF