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kennyb
09-29-2006, 08:24 AM
I'm new to this site and thinking of building a .45 cal. longrange rifle. I guess what I had in mind was something like the Pedersoli Gibbs type rifle. I saw the post on the Pecantonice River kit. Is this a kit that a novice can build? What kind of accuracy could you expect with this rifle? Where can a person find such idems as a powder tube and the high quality percussion nipples?
I read a friends book, and bought one myself on ebay, called the Cap Lock Muzzleloading Rifle, I was amazed at the accuracy those old timers were getting. Anyhow any help or suggestions about starting a project like this would be most appreciated.
Kenny

mooman76
09-29-2006, 10:46 AM
I don't know much about this rifle you speak of or what you mean by long range but you can get allot of parts at dixiegunworks.com They have allot of kits or you can design your own!

Old Ironsights
09-29-2006, 12:24 PM
Are you looking to strictly Paper Punch or make Meat?

"Chunk Guns" are huge heavy monsters that do for Muzzleloaders what Bench Rest Rifles do for centerfire. Useless for anything but paper.

OTOH, Long Range Meat means Big Heavy Bullets. IIRC Washington's "snipers" were using .70 (one oz RB) to hit folks at 500-700 yds.

More mass, less enviornmental deviation.

Slamfire
09-30-2006, 12:19 AM
Perhaps not, the "Battlefield Detectives" show on the history channel, indicates that conicals were found of the Saratoga battlefield. Conclusive, no, but good reason for conjecture.
As for a rifle, a heavy barreled underhammer might be a good place to start. A very simple action, with very fast lock time, and direct to the chamber flash hole.

Buckshot
09-30-2006, 11:49 AM
..............Kennyb, welcome to the board. The Pecatonica 'Rigby' can be built by a novice provided a few things. Think, don't rush, be thoughtfull and ask if stumped. As to the kit, the lock (L&R) sux big time. Everything else is very nicely done. I don't care for the buttplate they supply but that's just me. Also, there is no forend tip supplied, nor do they even list one. I just bought a hunk of wood sold for making knife scales and used it.

It can be made into a very attractive, accurate, and handy rifle.

Oh yeah, the tang as supplied is too short to accept a tang sight. You'll have to cut it off and have a piece welded on so you can shape it.

.................Buckshot

NickSS
09-30-2006, 02:46 PM
I shoot long range Black powder cartridge matches where I live. An aquaintance of mine shoots a Parker Hale Volunteer rifle in these matches. It's a 45 cal military style muzzle loader. His bullets look like a Lyman 500 gr 457124 but are sized to 451 diameter and cast from soft lead. He uses 130 gr of GOEX FFG. His rifle has a long range tang sight mounted to a steel plate that is inletted into the stock behind the rifle's tang with a windgage front sight. He is very competitive with the guys shooting breach loaders all the way out to 1200 yards. In fact he won the 1200 yard match I attended with him up in British Columbia. He shot a 49 with 7 Vs out of a possible 50 on the Canadian 5V targets they used at the match.

kennyb
10-01-2006, 11:37 PM
Thanks guys, I like to hear from you all that have tried this game. The more a person thinks about this the more problems there are to overcome, but I guess that is what makes it so enjoyable when everything comes together, I enjoy all the advice.
Kenny

Dixiejack
05-28-2014, 12:55 PM
I'm glad I came across this thread because I have been looking at the Pecatonica Rigby. I know the Pedersoli Gibbs gets a lot of positive reviews, but being old and set in my ways, I had rather have "American made". Now I'm not to sure about the Pecatonica Rigby. Several problems I have are: 1. Don't have the tools or know-how to build a rifle from scratch or 2. most kits don't offer left hand versions. Maybe you long range shooters could throw out the names of some BP gun makers you would recommend. Be nice to find one in the Friendship area (I live about 30 miles away) that I could get to build me one.

Boz330
05-28-2014, 02:59 PM
By the time you buy the kit and have someone build it for you, you will have the price of a Gibbs or more. The Gibbs is a known quantity and there seem to be quite a few folks buy them and then figure out that it is more than they wanted to mess with and sell them. The one I got had 20 rounds thru it and came with the adjustable mold.

Bob

Dixiejack
05-28-2014, 03:29 PM
Good point Bob. I assume your talking about the Pedersoli Gibbs. One of the problems I mentioned is that I am left handed and want a left hand lock. Also, my left eye is my master eye. It's hard to find a production gun or kit with a left hand lock. Also for the price of a Gibbs or more, I can have exactly what I want.

Boz330
05-28-2014, 06:00 PM
One of the guys on the US Long Range Team shoots a Pedersoli Gibbs left handed. I believe that at the moment he owns the 1000yd NMLRA record. I understand the want for the left handed lock though. Just trying to be helpful and practical. Someone suggested the underhammer and that is pretty neutral handed.
I always thought that an underhammer would make a great LR rifle. It almost completely eliminates the possibility of miss fires. The downside is that if you shoot by international rules with a sling you definitely need a shooting coat to protect your arm. Cross sticks wouldn't be bad though.

Bob

John Taylor or Waksupi might be able to help if you want someone to build for you. Waksupi finished a Hawken for me and I can recommend him with no problem.

Nobade
05-28-2014, 08:09 PM
Check out the Ferriss Creedmoor rifle that Lee Shaver builds.
http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/ferriss-creedmoor-rifle/

It doesn't say much about it on his web site, but somewhere there is lots more info. I think he has a blog out there somewhere... Anyhow, it's a top quality American made rifle that can be set up as you wish.

-Nobade

Dixiejack
05-28-2014, 11:09 PM
One of the guys on the US Long Range Team shoots a Pedersoli Gibbs left handed. I believe that at the moment he owns the 1000yd NMLRA record. I understand the want for the left handed lock though. Just trying to be helpful and practical. Someone suggested the underhammer and that is pretty neutral handed.
I always thought that an underhammer would make a great LR rifle. It almost completely eliminates the possibility of miss fires. The downside is that if you shoot by international rules with a sling you definitely need a shooting coat to protect your arm. Cross sticks wouldn't be bad though.

Bob

John Taylor or Waksupi might be able to help if you want someone to build for you. Waksupi finished a Hawken for me and I can recommend him with no problem.

Thanks for the feedback. I have shot right hand ejection, bolts, etc for 60 years and have had a few LH actions. I figure this is going to be my last major build and there are a few custom "add-ons" that I want. I don't hunt any more and I am selling off most of my guns with some of the funds going to a custom made front loader and a BPCR.
I built with a machinist friend's help an under hammer BP bench rest rifle in 50 cal. about 30 years ago. It weighed 26 lbs. The under hammer is (in my opinion) the most dependable BP ignition system, but I always like my hammer on top.

(kennyb, I didn't mean to hijack your thread).

Is Waksupi a member on this forum?

Nobade, Lee Shaver builds a nice looking rifle. I will check into it.

Tatume
05-29-2014, 08:21 AM
Check out the Ferriss Creedmoor rifle that Lee Shaver builds. ... It doesn't say much about it on his web site, but somewhere there is lots more info. I think he has a blog out there somewhere.

If you click on the photo of the Ferriss rifle it takes you here, for a bit more information:

http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/ferriss-creedmoor-rifle-1/

Yes, there used to be a link to a series of detail photographs, but I can't find it anymore.

Boz330
05-29-2014, 05:58 PM
Here are some pics of a Ferris by Lee Shaver. It is a very expensive rifle and the wait time is significant. My Best friend ordered one to celebrate is graduation from Chemo and Radiation in early 2012, he died 2 months ago and it hasn't arrived yet. They are beautiful rifles though. This one belongs to the lefty I was telling you about.

Bob

Dixiejack
05-29-2014, 06:20 PM
Thanks for the pics, Bob. Sorry about your friend. I've been in touch with Lee Shaver today. WOW! What nice work. Trying to talk my self out of ordering one. It will be a right handed lock.
I added up parts for a buld and they came to $800.00, that's not including building and finishing the wood & metal, plus the wait and build time from a professional BP smith would be a year +. Pardon the pun, but I'm going to bite the boolit. :)

Dixiejack
05-31-2014, 11:18 AM
Here is a link to Lee Shaver's gunsmithing blog. Show a lot of detailed photos. http://leeshavergunsmithing.blogspot.com/

oldracer
05-31-2014, 11:57 AM
I built one of the Pecatonica River Schuetzen half stock kits with the best slice of tiger maple for the stock they had on hand at the time. I posted some pictures on here of the finished rifle after lots and lots of sanding and 14 coats of lacquer sprayed finish. I have build several of these "kits" in the past and there are several things my mentor said to pay very close attention to so that the finished gun shoots well (better than I can do with it). First is not to rush. I generally takes me about 6 weeks to get the wood for the stock fully inlet so every thing fits as supposed to. Since these guns have a hooked breech plug, that has to be fit to the tang and then the assembly fit to the stock. I have the company but the dovetails for the front globe and the under lug, much easier for me! Since the gun I built is a 45 caliber slug gun, I opted for the best barrel possible with a 1 in 18 twist and sized the same as a Pedersoli Gibbs. The barrel did not come with smoothed and polished flats which took me about a week to get finished. The half stock kit had a very fast and short hammer fall was a shock when I got it together. The force needed to fully cock the gun is more than double than any of my other percussion rifles. I have less than 1 oz. of pull to trip the set trigger which makes accuracy a bit better. I did a trip to the range before I finished the stock to make sure the gun would at least hit the side of a barn before I did lots of work that might have to be undone. I had the Lee Shaver tang sight aligned well so the first shots were great. Total time including stock finish was about 3 months of me working a bit every day which is great therapy and I ended up with a one of a kind rifle that shoots much better than I can do with it.

Some additional thoughts that came to mind after my post as mentioned by my mentor. The barrel is the most important part of the gun and buy the best one available even if other parts have to wait. If possible, have the supplier do the barrel machining such as breech plug, globe and under lug dovetails as they can do it better than you can by hand. Buy the best knives, chisels and stoke wood working tools available and keep them SHARP. I buy Gunline tools as they are just up the road from me in the L.A.area and their stuff is great.

Dixiejack
05-31-2014, 01:20 PM
I'm new to this site and thinking of building a .45 cal. longrange rifle. I guess what I had in mind was something like the Pedersoli Gibbs type rifle. I saw the post on the Pecantonice River kit. Is this a kit that a novice can build? What kind of accuracy could you expect with this rifle? Where can a person find such idems as a powder tube and the high quality percussion nipples?
I read a friends book, and bought one myself on ebay, called the Cap Lock Muzzleloading Rifle, I was amazed at the accuracy those old timers were getting. Anyhow any help or suggestions about starting a project like this would be most appreciated.
Kenny

Kenny, oldracer gives some sound advice. I'll add, you should buy/build the best you can afford.

StrawHat
06-07-2014, 06:18 AM
While many of the old rifles did indeed have a hooked breech, I believe the fixed breech rifles are more accurate. Less chnace for things to move around.

Building a good rifle takes a while. Building your first one takes a bit longer. Some of the ready made rifles are pretty good out of the box.

johnson1942
06-07-2014, 02:48 PM
on all the muzzleloader that i built i siversoldered the tang and hooked breech together. i also on most of them drilled a hole and tapped it for a bolt up through where the tang and breech came together and were silver soldered solid. the bolt that held the front of the trigger guard on came up through the stock through that tapped hole between breech and tang. made the barrel and action rock solid and unable to shift around at all.

oldracer
06-07-2014, 11:14 PM
There seem to be a couple of schools of thought on hooked breeches. For example the Pedersoli Gibbs uses one and it is huge and very tight fitting when compared to one from a Thompson Center rifle for example. On mine the fit is very tight and when I built my Schutzen muzzle loader I did several days work fitting the hook breech to the tang and actually had to add some metal in sides of the tang so the hook would be as tight as I wanted. I then used some super glue to fasten them together when inletting the tang and barrel to the stock. That took me nearly a week using some red lipstick on the metal bits to get everything cut out evenly. In the end I dissolved the glue once the tang was fastened in and the barrel sits on about a one inch wide foot just in front of the barrel key. The fit is tight and so far has not caused and change of zero when transporting the gun. I fastened the tang sight (Lee Shaver Gibbs model) to the tang after the tang and barrel were inletted and fastened down as they would be finally.

Ajax
06-11-2014, 10:58 AM
I am surprised no one mentioned the schuetzen rifles.

Andy

Dixiejack
06-11-2014, 12:26 PM
I am surprised no one mentioned the schuetzen rifles.

Andy

I don't think there are any organized ML schuetzen matches. Seems if that was mentioned recently on the ASSRA forum. I don't believe NMLRA rules allow schuetzen style rifles in organized competition. It's strange, because the premise of all competition rifle shooting is BP muzzle loaders.

oldracer
06-11-2014, 01:18 PM
In San Diego we do some muzzle loading schuetzen matches the same time we do the monthly target and steel matches. The rifle I built up from the parts I bought from Petatonica Supply was their Schuetzen model. I compared it to the Pedersoli Gibbs I have which seems to be one used a lot in the long range matches and the differences I could see was the trigger and the shape of the stock. The Gibbs has a 2# single trigger where the Schuetzen rifle has a double set trigger and I have it set to 1oz. The double set could easily be replaced and then you could do both matches. The Schuetzen style stock has much more of a drop in it (off hand)and the Gibbs is flatter for shooting prone. Both are 45 caliber, same barrel length, twist, same sights, same bullet, etc, etc. The Schuetzen does have a much faster hammer speed and also less total travel than the Gibbs but I did not see anything about that in the long range rules?

Dixiejack
06-17-2014, 09:16 PM
Bit the boolit and placed an order with Lee Shaver for a "modified" Creedmore. .40 cal. 30 " bbl and Lee's own sights. Should be ready this winter. Time enough to practice over at Friendship (30 miles away--like being close to heaven). Bob, thanks for your opinion and Lee made the same suggestions. Now I need to start looking for a nose pour mould. Life is good.

Boz330
06-18-2014, 09:04 AM
Bit the boolit and placed an order with Lee Shaver for a "modified" Creedmore. .40 cal. 30 " bbl and Lee's own sights. Should be ready this winter. Time enough to practice over at Friendship (30 miles away--like being close to heaven). Bob, thanks for your opinion and Lee made the same suggestions. Now I need to start looking for a nose pour mould. Life is good.

What size and weight are you looking for and do you know the twist? I would guess that .400 and .408 and a 16 twist would be what you get. You will need something around .391 or .392 if you are going to paper patch and a 400+gr mold. I don't know if you really have to have a nose pour unless you are going for an adjustable weight mold.
Btw I'm headed to Friendship tomorrow. I have to deliver some powder to a guy. If you go down to the Creedmore range during the Nationals there is usually a lot of expertise there on these LR rifles and shooting those 500yd gongs is a hoot.

Bob

Dixiejack
06-18-2014, 09:29 AM
Bob, twist is 1:16 and I had a few Hoch nose pour molds years ago. Think about a 380 gr. .400 dia. with 3 grease grooves and base .001 undersize semi spitzer. That's where I'm going to start.

Dixiejack
05-24-2016, 09:38 AM
Here are some pics of a Ferris by Lee Shaver. It is a very expensive rifle and the wait time is significant. My Best friend ordered one to celebrate is graduation from Chemo and Radiation in early 2012, he died 2 months ago and it hasn't arrived yet. They are beautiful rifles though. This one belongs to the lefty I was telling you about.

Bob

Bob,
My Shaver long range Ferris rifle is still on order after two years (it was promised to me a year ago). Wished I had went with the Pedersoli Gibbs.

George

rfd
05-24-2016, 10:18 AM
the pedersoli .451 gibbs is one of the better long distance (1000 yard) ml's, readily available for under $2k ...

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/prodotti/mid/6S.225.jpg

Dixiejack
05-24-2016, 10:36 AM
The Pedersoli is a nice rifle, but I committed to the Ferris and my money is tied up in it. Hopefully Mr. Shaver will do what's right.

idahoron
05-24-2016, 07:38 PM
Bob,
My Shaver long range Ferris rifle is still on order after two years (it was promised to me a year ago). Wished I had went with the Pedersoli Gibbs.

George

I have been waiting 4 years on my TC Renegade with a stock replacement. At this point I don't think I want it back.

rfd
05-24-2016, 07:44 PM
Bob,
My Shaver long range Ferris rifle is still on order after two years (it was promised to me a year ago). Wished I had went with the Pedersoli Gibbs.

George

waiting more than a year for a firearm to be built is not my cup of tea, i don't care how wonderful it's purported to be either. heck, at my age i can't wait more', 6 months for my cpa to be built and then i might get lucky and be able to shoot it for only a few years more. :D

Dixiejack
05-24-2016, 10:34 PM
"I have been waiting 4 years on my TC Renegade with a stock replacement. At this point I don't think I want it back."
4 years?? Wow.
rfd, I'm up in age. I should be selling guns instead of buying them. :(

rfd
05-25-2016, 06:30 AM
a good friend ranch manager in montana had been waiting 1-1/2 years for a shiloh 1877 he ordered. he called them 3 months ago and was told the wait's been extended another 1-1/2 years. he forfeited his upfront shiloh dollars, bought a pedersoli roller, is quite a happy bpcr shooter and ain't looking back at his big shiloh mistake.

Dixiejack
05-25-2016, 08:00 AM
I can understand some short wait time due to unforeseen circumstances, but extending delivery 1 1/2 years is very poor business. They didn't hold up on their end of the deal, so they should have refunded his upfront money. In my case, I can't afford to walk away from 3/4 of the price I've already paid on the Ferris rifle.

Boz330
05-25-2016, 09:01 AM
a good friend ranch manager in montana had been waiting 1-1/2 years for a shiloh 1877 he ordered. he called them 3 months ago and was told the wait's been extended another 1-1/2 years. he forfeited his upfront shiloh dollars, bought a pedersoli roller, is quite a happy bpcr shooter and ain't looking back at his big shiloh mistake.
Shiloh has always had a pretty long wait time. I've gotten 2 rifles from C-Sharps, a Highwall and a 75 off of the rack. Waited 3 months on the Highwall and was very happy with it. If I was going to go with a Shiloh I think I would pay the extra and go through Bill Goodman.

I to should be selling guns but it is a PIA to get a fair price or else you have to give them away. I use to have a friend that was an FFL that would take them on consignment and he always treated me fair, in fact I usually made money on them since I had, had them so long. Unfortunately he surrendered his license. Every couple years I would go through the safe and if it hadn't been shot in a couple years it was gone.

Bob

Dixiejack
05-25-2016, 09:57 AM
I always wanted a Shiloh, but I will not do business with someone who does not honor their word or contract.

oldracer
05-25-2016, 10:30 AM
Here are my thoughts with regards to these guns. The very high end ones such as Lee Shaver's custom number is fine IF you are an international caliber shooter. The amount of time and work to get so you can use it for it's full potential are tremendous and most of us old guys just don't have it. Of course there are those shooters who want to have the "best" and that is okay if you can afford the time and $$$$$$. The next option as already noted is to buy a Pedersoli Gibbs and they are just a great shooter. I could not afford a new one and it took me several years to find a used one but the wait was worth it as it shoots way better than I can. I nearly did buy a new one and after calling all the places that advertise them and finding they "had to order it" I gave up on that idea.

So since I had already assembled a very early T/C Hawken kit and a Leigh kit from Muzzle loader's Supply I bought the parts to make the Pecatonica River Schuetzen rifle with a 1 in 18 45 caliber twist Green Mtn barrel. It took me about 3 months total to assemble and finish it and then over a year to get it so it groups less than 1 inch at 300 yards (bullets too hard)! The stock was not real great for bench shooting to I made a clone of my Pedersoli stock from lace wood and now have too possible ways to shoot those 540 grain bullets.

Last fall I decided to make an under hammer version of the same gun and after talking to the guys at Pecatonica River they said it might be a while to get the barrel I needed so I waited and waited and waited. Finally a member from here, thanks again Emery, sold me a barrel he had sitting for some time and the under hammer is pretty much finished. I am waiting for the lacquer to settle and might sand it some and shoot a couple more coats but it is shooting. So I now have a "slug gun" that is a real shooter and a real looker at the range. When I un cased it last week half a dozen black rifle shooters came over to see what the heck I had! That makes me feel pretty good as you can imagine and the shoot is great right out of the box. So I guess my point is, there are several possible ways to go and I would not want to be caught up in the idea of waiting and waiting to get a certain make or model of a rifle, no matter who makes it or what sort of reputation they might have. I'd suggest assembling your own, it is GREAT!

HPT
05-26-2016, 06:23 PM
Dixie Jack

Buy a Pedersoli for now & sell it when your Lee Shaver comes - Life's too short

johnson1942
05-27-2016, 10:25 AM
its easy to tweek those imports to out shoot them all no matter how high end they are. if the barrels are drilled on center then the tweeking comes easy. then comes the right bullet for the twist. its not rocket science.

ResearchPress
05-29-2016, 01:04 PM
The Long Range Muzzle Loader web site has some general observations on a variety of muzzle loaders suitable for the discipline and quite a bit of useful information to read up on while you're waiting on or selecting rifles. See: Rifles & Equipment
(http://www.lrml.org/reference/rifles-equipment/)
David

rfd
05-29-2016, 04:54 PM
BACO has the gibbs in stock for $1711 ...

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Gibbs_Muzzleloader_it-163550.aspx?CAT=4782

Boz330
05-31-2016, 09:12 AM
BACO has the gibbs in stock for $1711 ...

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Gibbs_Muzzleloader_it-163550.aspx?CAT=4782

That makes the one I got for $1200 with a mold and 20 rds through it look like a real bargain.
I tried GG boolits and the first groups were teriffic at 300yd. Then I shot some PP out of a pound die my buddy made up and and those groups were way better. Never changed anything about that load since, it shoots good out to 1000yd.
Before I shot the first loads we peened the barrel and tang and shimmed the barrel. My buddy had perfected these tweeks on his rifle. Probably the easiest time I have ever had getting a rifle to shoot bar none. The only other thing I would do is stipple the butt plate to keep it from sliding around so easily.

Bob

Bob

Omnivore
06-01-2016, 05:46 PM
kennyb hasn't posted on this forum for three and a half years.

Extraordinary claims ("groups [plural] of under an inch at 300 yards") require extraordinary evidence. I'd need to see the gun camera film on that one. The slightest change in wind, for example, would blow a potential group like that all to heck. Most shooters, with their modern smokeless magnums and VLD bullets can't do that.

The NRA High Power target, MR-63FC - F-Class target for three hundred yards has a Ten ring diameter of 2.85 inches. So you could nail tens all day long then, being that the ten ring is nearly three times your rifle's group size. The X ring is 1.42", so you'd get 10X hits most of the time.

I might be able to do that with my scoped Remington 700 Varmint rifle, chambered for 308 Win, using Match ammo, at 100 yards on that same, 300 yard target, on a good day. You say you can do that with a muzzleloader at 300 yards; I'm not saying it's imnpossible, just very extraordinary.

rfd
06-01-2016, 05:58 PM
... Extraordinary claims ("groups [plural] of under an inch at 300 yards") require extraordinary evidence. I'd need to see the gun camera film on that one. The slightest change in wind, for example, would blow a potential group like that all to heck. Most shooters, with their modern smokeless magnums and VLD bullets can't do that....

... You say you can do that with a muzzleloader at 300 yards; I'm not saying it's impossible, just very extraordinary.

someone must either believe in the tooth fairy or is selling a bridge in brooklyn. not extraordinary, i call it extreme luck or impossible, or jus plain bs.

idahoron
06-01-2016, 10:41 PM
I have shot sub 2" groups at 300 yards with both my 7mm mag and my tactical 223. I don't think shooting those guns to that level is too much really. I have shot out to 300 with my 45 with paper patched bullets. I normally shoot steel so I would only guess that on most days I can keep them sub pie plate ;) If I really do my part I can do a little better but even with my peeps and that gun it is all about seeing well enough and getting a day without wind.

johnson1942
06-01-2016, 10:59 PM
i have hit with my pp 45/70 useing reloader 7, prairie dog mounds in the same hand sized spot at 300 yards off of a cross stick.and if you have a gun set up and load it right it will do things that are really great shooting. a neighbor with his 7mm mag shot at at trotting coyote at a 500 yards and dropped it in one shot. we know it was at 500 yards because that hill has been measured before for distance. one doesnt have to be a national match shooter to do country shooting that is real good. if the gun is set up and one knows how to shoot great shooting can happen. a guy visited me a while back and never ever shot a 45/70. he wanted to try. i know 100 yards isnt far but i set up 14 1 gallon jugs filled with water at 110 yards and from our deck he blew up all 14 with 14 shots. i walked out their 14 times to set up the next one. he couldnt believe how well he could shoot that cpa 45/70.

rfd
06-02-2016, 06:23 PM
i have no problem to reliably go under 2" with a cheap (but slightly tricked out) axis heavy barrel .223 on the bench with a mueller 8-32x44SF and careful 69g match king handloads, as long as the air is reasonably still. but to run under 1" consistently @ 300yds with a muzzleloader and iron sights? umm, i may not be smart but i ain't dumb.

Squeeze
06-02-2016, 07:16 PM
1MOA...maybe, But those competition guys at friendship don't go 1" at 300, at least consistently.

rfd
06-04-2016, 05:21 AM
head's up - DGW now has the .40 caliber 1:24 pedersoli gibbs on sale for $1100, ends 6/14 ... big price cut from the original $1900.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_186_191&products_id=8296

Nobade
06-04-2016, 08:17 AM
head's up - DGW now has the pedersoli gibbs on sale for $1100, ends 6/14 ... big price cut from the original $1900.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_186_191&products_id=8296


A good price, but that is the 40 caliber with 1:24 twist. Not great for long range but fine for 200 - 300 M. (And you got me all excited!)

-Nobade

pietro
06-04-2016, 08:38 AM
Where can a person find such idems as a powder tube




Yeah, the Ned Roberts classic book on cap-lock muzzleloaders is a very nice read/reference, with a lot of pics/details about the accuracy & methods to obtain target-grade accuracy.

A BP shooter @ my gunclub made his own powder drop tube via soldering a small aluminum funnel to one end of a (hollow) aluminum arrow shaft (they're made from thinwall aluminum tubing) - but since the arrow blanks are only about 33" long (+/-), if a longer drop tube is desired, I'm sure that it's possible to solder two arrow shafts together to make a longer tube.



.

rfd
06-04-2016, 09:08 AM
A good price, but that is the 40 caliber with 1:24 twist. Not great for long range but fine for 200 - 300 M. (And you got me all excited!)

-Nobade

aaaaaaaa, my bad, forgot to list the caliber ... and yer right!

Plastikosmd
06-04-2016, 10:17 AM
Boz, what do u mean by"preened the barrel and tang"

is this to keep sights in place at tang and barrel or in fitting stock to gun?
I have not run across this before

Dixiejack
06-04-2016, 10:24 AM
It would be ok if you want to limit yourself to short range shooting. If the rifle had a 16" twist, it would be a heck of a buy. Then with a 400 to 450 gr. bullet, you could be competitive out to a 1,000 yds. +. Most of the P-G articles I have read talks about tweaking to get it to shoot right.

Ballistics in Scotland
06-04-2016, 11:44 AM
I shoot long range Black powder cartridge matches where I live. An aquaintance of mine shoots a Parker Hale Volunteer rifle in these matches. It's a 45 cal military style muzzle loader. His bullets look like a Lyman 500 gr 457124 but are sized to 451 diameter and cast from soft lead. He uses 130 gr of GOEX FFG. His rifle has a long range tang sight mounted to a steel plate that is inletted into the stock behind the rifle's tang with a windgage front sight. He is very competitive with the guys shooting breach loaders all the way out to 1200 yards. In fact he won the 1200 yard match I attended with him up in British Columbia. He shot a 49 with 7 Vs out of a possible 50 on the Canadian 5V targets they used at the match.

This is very much in the style of the British match rifles for use at 1000 and 1200 yards, except that they usually had a short forend and dispensed with ramrod storage, in the interests of stable bedding. The barrels were rold und and the rear sight was a tall, screw-adjustable tang sight. I don't see the need to have it further back than the tang, unless it is a very short tang. But very often they had an alternative sight mounting on the comb of the stock near the buttplate, for use in the back position many shooters preferred. Even for the game shooter, the back position is a very useful alternative for downhill shots.

The first rifles in this style were Sir Joseph Whitworth's. He was a most remarkable mechanical engineer with little knowledge of firearms when he started, and was asked by the government to investigate the performance of the .577 Enfield rifle musket. His contributions, which lasted well, were about .450 caliber, meticulous engineering tolerances, 20in. twist rifling and a bullet of 480 or 500gr. But he designed a hexagonal bore with shaped bullet which worked very well until it rather rapidly fouled, but could have imparted enormously more rotational force to the bullet than it needed. This was the type of Whitworth rifle used in the American Civil War, and at the opening of the first Wimbledon meeting in 1860 the young Queen Victoria placed a bullet within an inch and a quarter of the target centre, using a rifle set up for her on a fixed rest the day before. Of course you would naturally expect the descendent of Odin to be lucky, and 1in. at 300 yards is fantasy, but you should equal a very good modern sporting rifle some of the time.

Then William Ellis Metford established that with a hard cast bullet very shallow rifling would do just as well. He even managed to stabilize bullets with rifling half a thousandth deep, or the scratches made with coarse emery powder on a rotating lap, though neither of these would stand bore erosion. He used gain-twist rifling (which had long been known, and therefore wasn't patentable) with an angle proportional to pressure, but others did just as well with constant twist, since bullets by their nature start out slow. There is no need for anything different from a modern barrel with 20in. twist made for .45-70 breechloaders. Bullets can be either grooved and lubed or paper patched. The latter might have some slight advantage in the original match rifle discipline, in which cleaning between shots wasn't allowed, and the patched bullet was better at scouring away fouling on the way in and the way out.

You can learn a great deal by studying the www.trackofthewolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com) catalogue. They do innumerable parts, and plans for the constructor. It is quite feasible for the amateur to build his own rifle in this style, as long as you don't put a realistic cash value on your time. But you could buy your meat ready-made, or punch holes in your target with a wad-punch.

A couple of points worth mentioning is that a drip bar is well worth having. That is a shaped steel strip to solder to the barrel, butting against the upper edge of the lock, so that flame from the cap doesn't erode the wood. The pressure will be higher than in most muzzle-loaders, and will tend to erode the inside of the nipple. So a beryllium copper nipple - stainless steel at the very least - is worth having, and you should have a reasonably heavy hammer to avoid letting out too hot and fast a jet of flame from the nipple. I wouldn't shoot a right-hander's rifle from the left shoulder, but there is no more risk than that.

Boz330
06-05-2016, 11:41 AM
Boz, what do u mean by"preened the barrel and tang"

is this to keep sights in place at tang and barrel or in fitting stock to gun?
I have not run across this before
The hooked breach isn't a real tight fit from the factory so we peened the tang portion with a hammer and punch for a tighter fit to the hooked breach plug. I don't take it apart to clean since doing that. Since the sights are on the tang and the barrel is separate, any movement is going to change boolit impact. Not a big deal at mid range but can play havoc at LR. In all honesty this gun will shoot way better than I'm capable of but at least I know for sure it is my screw ups not the gun's.

Bob

johnson1942
06-05-2016, 12:52 PM
every side lock ive built ive silversolderd the tang to the breech plug. i see no reason to take a gun apart to clean it. ive eliminated any movement in the breech area. ive also drilled and tapped up through this joined area and then secured the breech tang area tight into the stock with a bolt up through the front of the trigger guard into the soldered together tang and breech.

Ballistics in Scotland
06-05-2016, 03:42 PM
every side lock ive built ive silversolderd the tang to the breech plug. i see no reason to take a gun apart to clean it. ive eliminated any movement in the breech area. ive also drilled and tapped up through this joined area and then secured the breech tang area tight into the stock with a bolt up through the front of the trigger guard into the soldered together tang and breech.

That can be done, although the Trackofthewolf website includes plenty of one-piece breechplugs with tangs. But if a rifle is for sporting use, many people are likely to get it wet sometimes, and that water will get into crannies where black powder fouling has penetrated.

I would prefer a separate tang and hook breech, but an extra screw drilled and tapped into the bottom, below the hook, is a good idea.

oldracer
06-05-2016, 06:53 PM
The main idea of a hooked breech as told to me was to allow the rifle to be broken down into a pair of much more easily handled sections. This is especially true if traveling and using an airline, ETC. So far I have 8 hooked breech rifles and have had no issues with any of them. I clean both parts very well after a shooting session and after reassembly I tamp the rifle butt on several layers of carpet to insure the barrel is well seated. At all the matches I have done we always get a change for several sighting in shots so if something has gone out of alignment it will show up right away.

I have noticed the Pedersoli breech plug with the hook and the tang portion are much heavier duty than those from ANY U.S. supplier I have seen so a better assembly is guaranteed for sure. I tried to buy some of these but so far even the U.S. distributor has been unable to get me any?

ResearchPress
06-09-2016, 02:03 AM
Then William Ellis Metford established that with a hard cast bullet very shallow rifling would do just as well..... He used gain-twist rifling (which had long been known, and therefore wasn't patentable) with an angle proportional to pressure....

Metford's rifling was patented (No. 2488 in 1865). The abridgment reads: "Barrels - The rifling is made to vary in pitch, so that the same turning moment is obtained throughout the length of the barrel. The pitch may also be varied so as to fulfil any other requirement."

David

Ballistics in Scotland
06-09-2016, 06:44 AM
Metford's rifling was patented (No. 2488 in 1865). The abridgment reads: "Barrels - The rifling is made to vary in pitch, so that the same turning moment is obtained throughout the length of the barrel. The pitch may also be varied so as to fulfil any other requirement."

David

He mentioned it, but gain-twist rifling wasn't established as his intellectual property by the patent. Others had done it before him, even though making it proportional to pressure was his idea and others had done it by guesswork. Probably his greatest innovation was rifling as shallow as we use today, and the discovery that even a moderately hard bullet would expand enough to grip and seal it. What he established by that patent was principally rounded bottoms to the grooves, not to be confused with his other type of rifling the grooves in the form of arcs of circles, which was used in the Lee-Metford. His early target barrels were mostly concentric five-groove rifling.

Toymaker
06-11-2016, 07:10 PM
Whoa, Old Ironsights!!! My 54 caliber, 58 pound caplock heavy bench rifle made meat before it won its first championship at Friendship.

ResearchPress
06-12-2016, 04:46 AM
He mentioned it, but gain-twist rifling wasn't established as his intellectual property by the patent.....
Yes, I misinterpreted your original message and thought you were saying his rifling wasn't patented. Metford writes about it in a memorandum, stating "The law which should govern the rotation of the bullet must be this, that the growth of the rotating or tortional movement should be exactly proportional to the growth of the linear movement of the bullet." Merits he notes are the "greatest economy of force, applied with the least possible barrel disturbance as well as the reduction of the stripping intention to its smallest amount."

Interestingly he also notes the shearing action on the paper patch being "just enough to slit into five lines, leaving only a trifling print on the hardened metal [of the bullet]. I do not scruple to say that if there was no other value to be got out of this system, I should still be tempted to use it to get this very result."

David

Ballistics in Scotland
06-12-2016, 10:42 AM
Yes, that is true about the patch stripping, letting the shooter around a lot of the careful technique and choice of materials which usually does achieve satisfactory patch stripping in a constant twist rifle. Also the fictional heat generated by velocity is an important element in stripping bullets, and bullets by their nature start out slow. Others got good results with constant-twist rifling, which offers less chance of something going wrong in the rifling process.