380acp groans...

[jdgabbard]

So riddle me this:

I loaded some 380acp today with the Lee 105g SWC, and 2.5g of bullseye. Now to load this boolit to OAL that fits my Bersa (0.970) I observed that the base of the boolit is RIGHT on top of the charge, if not actually slightly compressing it... (and I mean very slightly, more like just making it somewhat tighter than just poured into the case). Now of course I don't have the lee manual, so I don't know what the starting and max loads for this are. I got my data from a large list of people who suggest 2.5g under that boolit.

Now I used BE, but I actually prefer unique for most of my loads. I find it to just be a better powder in my opinion. And I also know that Unique is bulkier for weight then BE. And by my estimation, Unique would have a starting and Max loads with this boolit at around 2.4g to 3.2g...

Now maybe that just me, but that seems like it would be fairly well compressed in the case... Anybody got any experience loading this boolit with unique? What charge do YOU use?

[chris in va]

I'm part of the camp that believes in finding hard facts before doing something rather than taking someone's word for it.

My Lyman manual doesn't show a load for a 105 SWC, but 120gr LRN is 1.6-2.1 of BE, and I like to start my 'mystery' loads with the heavier bullet stats just in case.

BTW it shows Unique at 2.2-2.8 with the 120 grainer.

The Alliant site only shows the GDHP 90gr at 3.4gr Bullseye, and 4.6 of Unique. Both run around 1000fps.

[jdgabbard]

Chris, I'm with you on that. However, I will say I own both the 120g + 95g 358242s. And judging by what it looks like with 2.5g of Bullseye in the case, If you were to sit a 358242 120g on top of it, it WOULD compress the charge. Which, as I understand it, is "no bueno." With knowing that, I would say that is probably the reason for the 2.1g max charge, as it drops well over 250fps in velocity for a difference of 15g of boolit weight. I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with max pressure, as it does compressing a powder that shouldnt be compressed.

I'm no expert, but thats my guess. Can anybody provide some Lee Data for the 105g SWC in the 380acp? I know they should have some in their manual.

[DJ303]

I don't see that bullet in the Lee manual. There's a 100 gr boolit listed, but not the 105.

[casterofboolits]

I ran some 380 testing about twenty years and used an H&G #275 09-125-SWCBB and Bluedot. This combo was accurate and functioned in a FI Pony, Colt Government and Mustang. Sized the boolit .356. This was probably a compressed load, but I had no pressure signs at all. I did use a 9mm expander plug because of the longer boolit to reduce case bulge.

[kentuckycajun]

I'm loading the Lee 105 SWC (358-105) sized down to .356 also. It' weighs out to an almost perfect 110 gr using straight WW alloy. Never tried Bullseye, but having great results using HP-38.
Hodgdon data calls for 2.9 starting grains HP-38 for a 110gr HDY FMJ - started with 2.6 & 2.8 grains, and found them to be a little "snappy". Not dangerous or over-pressured, just not real comfortable to shoot.
Dropped down to 2.2 gr and have a very pleasant, accurate plinking round that cycles and feeds reliably.

Not seeing anything in my manuals for loads using Bullseye except for the 90gr - probably because of the compression factor of a larger, heavier bullet.

[shootingbuff]

I would start with the middle load for the 120 wt and go from there if working a load up. One should not be concerned with a comprised charge as long as it's a listed load and safe in modern firearms in good condition. If only a 5-10 gr diff I would have suggested the min load but you have 15 grs cushion. This is me, and no way am I saying do what I would do = just sayung ;-)

[Centaur 1]

I just started loading that boolit myself in the .380 using unique. I found some data on the web that has the max load at 4.3 grains, but I would not go that high it sounds like too much. I've been loading them using 3.0 grains and they seem to work well. I have to play with the overall length though, I tried shortening it because they would hang up once in a while. I was thinking that the bullets shoulder was getting hung up, but now I'm thinking that I'm getting some case bulging and that's what's causing the hangups. Keep us posted with your results.

[noylj]

There is no problem compressing Bullseye or Unique or Blue Dot. Flakes are fluffy and you are simply removing some unneeded air space. I do NOT size the bullet down but use it as-cast with a tumble lube. Do the same with my 9x19 loads. Great bullet. Wish they would make a 125gn SWC in the same style.
For a 102gn Lead bullet, the start load is 2.3 and max is 3.1gn Bullseye and 3.5-4.0gn for unique. COL is 0.980".
YMMV, so start at start load and work up slowly—as always.

[Will]

I use that load as well as 2.4gr RedDot with that boolit and it performs very well. I get better groups than with factory ammo. I tried unique but had pressure show up so I went back to what I had worked up with BE and RedDot. I had trouble with feeding with the 105swc until I began using a tapered crimp which solved the problem. I also use that load with the Lee112rn which they quit making. I liked the 112 over the current 102rn. Just like heavy boolits. I tried the 356402 but it wouldn't feed, but shot ok single fire.

[JIMinPHX]

I have the Lee manual, but it's probably not going to be as useful as you might have hoped. Logic would dictate that the Lee loading manual would list loading data in the common calibers for all the boolits that come out of Lee molds, but unfortunately, that's not the way that it is.

For the .380, with 100 grain lead, Lee only lists powder charges for Accur #2 & #5. They list nothing for the 102 gr RN or the 105gr SWC that they make a mold for. the next bump up the list is a powder charge of 2.4-2.7gr of HP-38 for a 115 grain jacketed bullet.

Lee does list a fair amount of data for the 100 grain jacketed bullet in the .380. they list Bullseye at 3.0-3.3 grains & Unique at 4.0-4.3 grains.

I just measured the free space in a piece of Federal .380 brass with 3 grains of Bullseye in it. There was about .3" left. That is enough space to seat the 105swc with just the slightest of clearance before touching the powder at a COAL of .97". If you use the 102 gr RN lee boolit, then there is about another .1" of free space left in the case. I have shot 3 grains of BE under the 102 gr RN @ .97" COAL with good results in a PPK on many occasions. This load duplicated the exterior ballistics of Federal American Eagle FMJ factory ammo, which is the hottest standard factory ammo that I have found in that caliber.

I had thought that I had also tried the 105SWC in the PPK, but I can't find any record of it, so I may not have. I do use the 105SWC in a 9-mm Parabellum on a regular basis with good results. The Lee 102 gr RN is my standard boolit for the .380. Most people report good results with between 2.5-2.8 grains of Bullseye under that boolit.

Speer #13 lists 3.0-3.3 grains of Bullseye or 3.8-4.2 grains of Unique under a (jacketed) 95 grain TMJ @ .970" COAL for the .380.

[JIMinPHX]

For a 102gn Lead bullet, the start load is 2.3 and max is 3.1gn Bullseye and 3.5-4.0gn for unique. COL is 0.980".


Would you mind letting me know where you found this data?

[jdgabbard]

Jim, as always, you're super helpful. I'll verify this load, and adjust accordingly. That really irks me about Lee.... How can you offer a product with no info about proper usage of it....

[Ole]

I haven't loaded the bullet you mention, but I have loaded several hundred 100gr RNFP (sized .357") lead loads with 3.0gr of BE. This combo worked pretty well in my Colt Mustang, and my friend's Eastern European 380 pistol and another buddy's mini Barretta .380.

I think your suggested load sounds reasonable.

[bdixon]

I just shot this boolit through my Bersa .380 yesterday with 2.6 grains of unique powder. It worked pretty well. The biggest problem I have is the chamber seems to be pretty tight, so if there is too much case buldge, the round wont chamber properly... I have sized my boolits to about .3555" and still have issues every once in a while (might be due to some brass being thicker than others). I might have to get a .355 die for my lube/sizer and see if that works better.

[2wheelDuke]

I don't have any experience with the swc, I got the 102rn instead. My scale is showing them at 105gr. I've got 2.7gr of bullseye behind them, but don't have my COL handy. I sized them to .357.

My Kel-Tec P3AT fed them flawlessly. Now I'm considering that same boolit for a light 9x19.

[thx997303]

I tried that RN in my 9mm and couldn't get any accuracy. Short bearing length I expect.

I bought it for 380 acp anyway. Gotta get to trying them.

[35remington]

jd, no need to get sore at Lee. Many bullet mould manufacturers do not list handloading data for their specific bullet, not just Lee. How about RCBS, for starters? NEI? Redding/SAECO?

I trust that makes the point.

[Wayne Smith]

jd, no need to get sore at Lee. Many bullet mould manufacturers do not list handloading data for their specific bullet, not just Lee. How about RCBS, for starters? NEI? Redding/SAECO?

I trust that makes the point.

True, but none of them have the gall to put out a "loading manual" when they have done none of the research included in the said "manual".

[35remington]

What? You haven't heard about the "Caliber specific" manuals wherein they take data from several reloading sources and present it as "The Complete Loading Manual for the .298 SuperMag" or some such?

Happens all the time. They didn't shoot any of the data either, just complied it all under one cover.

Perhaps you should send them a nastygram for having the nerve to compile it all in one place. Other people tend to think of this as quite handy and not "galling."

Other commercial cast bullet manufacturers and mould makers that do not make loading manuals will point you toward loading manuals that do not use their bullets because they don't have data for their own products either. In these instances all they can do is recommend loads for similar but not identical bullets that may develop different pressures. They can't be exact either.

No difference from what Lee does. Better get on the soapbox for them, too.

[Ranch Dog]

I ran the Lee 358-105 SWC at .970" through QuickLoad for the Bersa with the 3.5" barrel and here is what the software spit out for max loads:

BullsEye 3.3-grains @ 920 FPS and 17.1K PSI
Unique 3.9-grains @ 943 FPS and 17.1K PSI

Don't exceed the max charge or velocity, whichever occurs first.

[Ranch Dog]

I've been using 3.5-grains of Unique behind my TL358-125-RF in a JA-LC380, I know cheap gun, but it shoots like crazy. That charge is producing 835 FPS at 14.2K PSI and extremely accurate. With the pistol, I actually won an accuracy match!

I was dropping the Unique with the Auto Disk on a Lee turret press and the charges were very accurate resulting in a tight SD and ES. I moved the reloading to the Load Master and the Unique did not do well, very inconsistent in the drop. I think that this stems to the fact that the turret moving through the stations packs the Unique in the charge cavity. The Load Master turret is stationary and the press is very smooth with no vibration so I think that the flakes just weren't settling good enough prior to the drop.

I tried HS6, HP38, TiteGroup, Unique, and Universal and Unique was the winner. I was cleaning out my reloading room this week and found an unopen 4# jug of Clays so I will try it too.

[JIMinPHX]

I don't have any experience with the swc, I got the 102rn instead. ... ... Now I'm considering that same boolit for a light 9x19.

That's what I load for my wife to use for target practice. I can hit golf balls @ 25 feet with them & the recoil from 3 grains of Bullseye is pretty comfortable.

[sleeper1428]

I recently ran a few test loads through my latest purchase, a Taurus TCP738, to see if it had any preferences. I used two different boolit moulds, the first being the Lee 102gr RN and the second being the MiHec 358-93gr TC (cast as a solid rather than a HP). Loaded 25 each (both RN and TC) with 2.4gr, 2.6gr, 2.8gr and 3.0gr of Bullseye and then tested them (10-15 of each mould and load) offhand at 7 yards. The reason I didn't run all of them through is that I wanted to save enough of them for doing the same tests on my brother's 380 Llama. Now keep in mind that I'm operating with 72 y.0. eyes and somewhat shaky hands but even with that I was able to put all loads into less than 4" groups at that distance with the 2.4gr and 2.6gr groups going into less than 3" groups. All loads cycled the action of this neat little handgun crisply and the only FTF were seen with the final cartridge in the magazine. I'm going to wait until I've had a chance to run several hundred rounds through this pistol to be sure it's well broken in before I do any further investigation into the cause of this FTF problem and I also want to run some factory loads through it to see if I have the same problem.

My COL for the Lee 102gr RN was 0.930-0.931 (10 random COL checks done) while the COL for the MiHec 93gr TC (solid rather than HP) was 0.909-0.910 (10 random COL checks done).

Considering the fact that there was very little difference in the group size with loads varying from 2.4gr to 3.0gr of Bullseye, I'm probably going to opt for a load in the 2.4gr-2.5gr range simply because it saves on powder and is a bit more comfortable to shoot, especially for my wife who, by the way, really likes this little Taurus pistol.

One of these days I'm hoping to get the chrono set up so I can test these same loads for velocity - but don't hold your collective breaths for the results.

sleeper1428

[Centaur 1]

I ran the Lee 358-105 SWC at .970" through QuickLoad for the Bersa with the 3.5" barrel and here is what the software spit out for max loads:

BullsEye 3.3-grains @ 920 FPS and 17.1K PSI
Unique 3.9-grains @ 943 FPS and 17.1K PSI

Don't exceed the max charge or velocity, whichever occurs first.

Thanks Ranch Dog, I knew that I had some room by loading with just 3.0 grains of Unique, but now I know how much higher I can go.