Testing the GRF .62cal. Trade Gun Again

[Maven]

I finally had a chance to test the trade gun today after polishing the inner surfaces of the lock with a Cratex wheel spun by my Dremel motor tool: It's now a bit smoother with a slightly lighter trigger pull. I tried another .60cal. RB (closer to .605"; Rapine mold) as well. In the past, I've used a .595" Tanner and .600" Dixie in that gun and really couldn't see much difference in accuracy. The Rapine ball was interesting though and taught me something about my particular smoothie as well. First, my initial shooting was from a rest (75 gr. Graf's FFg + .018" patches) @ 25 yds., but soon tired of the 5" groups. For comparison I substituted the .595" Tanner RB and was not pleased with its grouping either. However, when I shot the .595" RB from a kneeling position with my left forearm on the bench (I'm right handed), accuracy improved significantly: I could generally keep 5 shots in the black of the NMLRA Postal Match target. Just for grins, I returned to the Rapine .600" RB, but used two 3/8" thick felt wads that I cut with a 5/8" arch punch and lubed with Crisco & beeswax (1/2 cup : 10 tbs., respectively). With one wad over the powder and another over the ball, accuracy was better, but I need to test this more thoroughly before making any claims about it.

Lessons learned today: Offhand, kneeling or standing with my left arm against either the bench or range roof support works well with this gun, but not a front rest. It also prefers a slightly thinner patch, .016" v. 018". With my rifles, I find I get much better accuracy when I dry swab the bore after seating a spit patched RB, but the trade gun isn't nearly so demanding. It makes reloading so much faster!

What remains to be seen: Whether the Rapine RB, which is slightly larger than .600" and definitely heavier (~325 grs.) than either the Dixie (~318 grs.) or the .595" Tanner (~314 grs.) will group better with a .012" patch than it did with the thicker ones and whether the felt wad regimen is worth pursuing. It's easier to load, but it leaves the bore quite greasy. I'll tolerate the latter if accuracy improves.

[waksupi]

Maven, try shooting your 25 yard groups off hand. For some reason, I could never shoot any of my smooth bores well from the bench.

[northmn]

I got about a 3" group at 75 yards (measured distance) off of my bench. I use a burlap bag filled with plastic and keep my hand under the forearm. The gun is a smooth rifle with a rear sight. It sighted in just like any rifle, where filing the sight adjusments moved the impact. I am very finicky about the ball I use as to weight, and even load them sprue up with the parting line up. I plan to mark the mold so that I can load an index the way for every load. Mine is a Lee mold that drops at about 602X604. I had a Dixie mold that dropped at 603 X607 or so. My own personal theory on smoothbores is that they need a MORE consistant loading than a rifle as there is no spin to compensate. Alignment of the ball when loading does not take anything more really than normal loading, but it puts the out of round in the same position for every shot. I tried 015 and 020 patching and found no advantage to the harder loading 020. One thing with mine that still gets me is that at 90-95 grains of 2f it shoots pretty dead on, but load about 100-110 and at 75 yard it will shoot at least 8 inches higher. You would not think that that large a bore would be affected by such a small increment. Does not matter much to me as 90-95 grains is plenty lethal for what I shoot. My goal now is to make sure that a clean barrel will shoot point on for deer hunting. Good luck with yours.

Northmn

[Maven]

Ric & Northmn, Your points about consistency and shooting off-hand are well taken as I think the sight picture and cheek weld are more consistent than when shooting off a rest. Actually, I hold the gun the same way when I kneel (one arm supported) as when I shoot off-hand. Nothmn, I' too have discovered that patch thickness matters less in this gun than in my rifles, which is a good thing since I can start and seat the RB's with ease, even in a fouled bore. Speaking of which, this one isn't as sensitive to bore condition as my rifles are. With the latter, I find I have to dry patch the bore after seating the RB, especially when using spit patches to get the best accuracy. The trade gun doesn't "care" whether I do or not, which is a huge convenience as far as I'm concerned. I'll also examine my RB's for roundness to see if I can control that variable in some way. However, the .600" Dixie and .595" Tanner RB's -> the same accuracy @25 yds, namely 3 shots touching + 2 more ~2" away. Yesterday I was able to put 5 of the smaller RB's in the black of the NMLRA Postal Match target at the same distance. (No rear sight.) When I finally tame this beast, I'll move my target out to 50 yds. and increase the powder charge to 85 - 90 grs. FFg. One thing I forgot to mention yesterday is that I need to manage my flint better so as to avoid accuracy destroying hangfires. With a fresh flint/fresh edge, the lock is about as fast as my caplocks.

[waksupi]

Something else to keep on top of, is breech fouling. When I get crust built up down there, accuracy goes south.

[Maven]

Ric, That's an excellent suggestion as the fouling was quite apparent after 5 or 6 shots, especially with the greased felt wads.

[northmn]

I use 25 yards as a rough in sight in distance for a shoulder arm to make sure I can hit the paper at longer ranges. Smooth bores especially, can be very accurate at 25 yards and really spread at longer ranges. The funny thing with mine was that I accuracy was about the same whether I wiped or not. You should look into Daryl S's methods on loading as he never wipes between shots, but uses a fairly tight patch and good lubes like LV. Also spit lubes should clean but those that use it really saturate the patch. I have been using Bore Butter as I want a hunting load, but will likely not replace it when it is used up. I also had good luck with Graf's powder which does not foul the same as GOEX and seems to remain softer. I would think Swiss would be ideal and plan to try it in my smoothie for roundball. When I chronographed a few loads I always found more consistancy in a fouled bore. The clean bore usually gave a lower velocity.

Northmn

[Maven]

Northmn, I also posted what I learned from that particular gun on the American Longrifles Forum (under pwbrasky), but in a better organized fashion. I did indeed discover that the GRF gun shoots just as well when the bore is wiped as when it is not. Since it's faster and more convenient not to wipe, I prefer it, but it doesn't work at all well in my rifles when I use spit patches.

[northmn]

I never really liked spit as I would run out on a hot day. Also I think a hot barrel would effect it. The other liquid lubes like Lehigh Valley, Hoppe's 9+ or moose milk (machinists oil mixed with water have really come to be preferred. These lubes work good at a match or off the bench for immediate shooting. For carrying I like a grease lube. Another favorite that some like is Track of the Wolfs Mink Oil. I never used to wipe after each shot either as I had better accuracy or as good without wiping. In essence, a liquid lube cleans the barrel when you seat the ball and pushes all the crud down on top of the powder charge such that you are shooting out of a swabbed barrel. But it kind of equalizes. that is one reason I think a fouled barrel shoots differently. A grease lube adds a bit of protection to the bore in a cleaner barrel. I really do not like spit patches although some swear by them. Also the method I suggested requires a fairly tight patch ball combination which is claimed to eliminate as much blow by and fouling. Thumb started bal/patch combo's may actually foul more than a tight one using a short starter. While some claim them to be incorrect and a pain, I swear by a short started load and even use them in the squirrel woods and deer hunting.

Northmn

[Maven]

Northmn, I used to use Winchester Sutler's "Moose Milk" exclusively (still do on occasion) and have tried "Old Slickum" (Murphy's Oil Soap?) too, but I don't think they're signifcantly better than saliva. Btw, many of my recovered patches are still damp except after using heavy powder charges. Regardless of the lube used, I always use a short starter: of necessity. The Trade Gun is almost an exception since RB's can be short started with ease.

[northmn]

A lot of shooters swear by the Lehigh Valley. To me it seems like spit also tends to load harder than some of the better lubes. The alchemy for homemade lubes is about endless. One individual tested water against other lubes and it did not do too bad (was better than some). I used to let shotgun wads set in a cup of water at competitions. Another point Daryl brings up a lot is the importance of barrel crown on loading. He is very meticulous on crowning a barrel. While I may do a few things differently than he does, I have enough experience to suspect that what he does works. He is also a stickler on accuracy.
Smooth bores are funny critters. Most people today use them with round ball alone. I have always considered them something I shoot with shot and can use a roundball in if needed. If I had one gun it would likely be a 12 bore fowler with sights. But I have several guns and really do not need that versatility. Still my 20 smooth rifle is very close to an all around gun and its fun to play with that concept. You cannot expect too much out of them with round ball however. In primitive matches where one shot is taken for the prize, you can sometimes give rifle shooters fits if you are good with a smoothy. In a 5 shot per target paper punching match a smoothbore will not make a reasonable showing. I cannot think of any real advantages with roundball that a smooth bore has over a rifle. Still, after the Northwest guns, like you have, got popular I know of a few bear and deer that got taken with one. I think its mostly the handling characteristics and lighter weight that many like.
I will repeat though. Until you start getting out to 50 yards or so, you may not see any real differences in performance. At 25 yards a smooth bore may blow a one hole group. They start to spread out at longer range. Even being as meticulous as I have suggested, a 4 inch group at 75 yards with one of my rifles would have me checking components to see what is wrong. Might be why so many like smooth bores. We don't expect so much out of them and don't have to fiddle so much.

Northmn

[Maven]

Northmn, One of the first things I did when I got the trade gun was to check the crown and then touch it up as per Daryl's method. So far, the best 25 yd. accuracy I've got is with either the .600" Dixie or .595" (actually .597") Tanner RB's, namely 3 touching and 2 others close by. (This is repeatable). Better still was 5 shots in the black of the NMLRA Postal Match Target that I fired on Sunday (no X's and no 2 touching though) . Powder charge and granulation (70grs. FFFg v. 85grs. FFg) and patch thickness (.022" denim v. .018" ticking) didn't appear to affect grouping, but felt recoil was much less with FFg loads and short starting and seating was much easier with the thinner patches. I suppose I should see whether commercial Moose Milk v. Old Slickum (That stuff must use Murphy's Oil Soap as the main ingredient as it smells about the same as MOS) v. saliva, but I don't think they'll have a major bearing on accuracy. I'd like one more session with the gun and various RB's* @25 yds. before I can determine which one is better or even best. After that, I'll retest, but @ 50 yds.


*The Rapine mold drops a .605" RB and has the advantage of a sprue cutter, so it's easy to cast with. However, that RB wasn't especially accurate with the .018" patches. Ergo, I just purchased some .013" - 014" red striped pillow ticking to try it with. If it's like the Dixie and Tanner RB's, it will group better with the thinner patch too.

[northmn]

With deer season getting close I am going to double check my 20 with Swiss powder and a clean barrel as it seemed to be a bit touchy on the first shot. I also have a 58 rifle I have just got shooting but not finished that needs a sight in.
I would think your 600 ball would work. I did not have a difference in accuracy with heavier patching so much as I had the same accuracy with a lighter patch that was easier to load. Sometimes I think these theories, like using a 595 ball and thicker patching, get started by someone who tries it and is a very good shot. Kind of like rolling the ball over 40 or 60 grit sand paper. Normal logic for a smooth bore dictates to me that a reasonable thickness of patching and a larger ball would be more accurate, just as in a rifle.

Northmn

[DIRT Farmer]

Then to add to the madness there is the wadded ball load, Load as a shot load. It works as well as any in my Brown Bess with a lot less recoil. Not so great in the 28 ga but deer hunting groups at 50 yds

[northmn]

I used to load a 715 ball in my 12 bore like a shot load once in a while. It took a verty thin patch. Would like you say, get minute of deer at 50 yards.

Northmn

[Charlie Sometimes]

Been following the thread-

Could the accuracy issue be something to the effect that it could be too tight or too loose and therfore be a help or hinderance in a smooth bore, due to the change of pressure and gas escaping around the ball as it passes the muzzle? Finding the perfect tension would be the key to accuracy to a particular range, I would think.

I'm still rolling the 62 SB barrel idea around in my head. I acquired a 600 RB that cast with pure lead at 598. It seems that it would take an overly thick patch to equal 620 or 625 to get the proper tension between the ball and the barrel.

[northmn]

A 600 ball with a 015 patch gives a total diameter of 630 as the patch goes around both sides. That permits a certain amount of compression which is necessary for seal. Accuracy in a smooth bore mainly comes from the fact that the ball does not spin, or at least consistantly. I miced the ball thrown by the two molds I have and they are out of round at 002 for one and 004 for another. Does patching at 015 main an even 015 over its area? In theory I think a perfect ball shot out of a perfect bore would be accurate, but we do not have that. Rifling puts a spin on the ball that equalizes a lot of variables that may affect the round ball accuracy in a smooth bore. Barrel heat and fouling can affect a rifle, what do those factors do to a smooth bore? My smooth bore also has a thinner barrel after it goes to round than a typical rifle. We measure accuracy by group count, like a 5 shot group size. Smooth bores typically will shoot as Maven mentioned where you get 3 touching and a couple out. How would five shots group if the barrel were cleaned and cooled between shots? Even rifles used for hunting are best double checked out of a clean cold barrel to see where that first shot goes.

Northmn