Need a powerful load for a 170gr SWC quick!

[Bad luck Bill]

I have a buddy who will be hiking the Apalachan trail this spring and all he's got is a 38 for defense. he wants me to load him up some bear stopper ammo (which will be quite a chore with a .38!) I've got the Lyman #358429 170gr Keith style SWC and need some loads for it. Is it possible to get +P velocities while keeping pressures safe? He's got a Taurus model 85 with a 3inch barrel. So far I've heard that 5.0grs of Unique would work but I think that might be too much. Maybe 3.5 grains of Bullseye or even 4.0grs of Unique? Any help would be much appreciated. I hear slow is better when working with heavier bullets. I'm going to be using WDWW's for the bullets. I'm concerned about too much pressure maybe damaging his gun. Is there any real need to get +P velocities with a 170gr Keith style semi-wadcutter? I figure 850 FPS should do a good job at stopping a black bear if shot placement is good.

BLB.

[Beau Cassidy]

I would be more worried about the 2 legged vermin more than the 4 legged ones. A bear usually don't want to be messed with and will back down. Not so with the hillbilly meth heads.

[David R]

5 grains of unique shoots fine in both my 38s. Same boolit. Its not even a +P. Its also my most accurate hot load.

It makes the chiefs special hard to hang on to.

David

[Bad luck Bill]

Okay Dave,

You're the second person to recommend that load whick makes me feel a little better about it being safe. The gun that will be shooting this load is a Taurus model 85 which is supposedly rated for +P pressures. So...this load is definitely safe for this gun? Do you have and other loads for this specific bullet/application? Remember, it will be used for defence against a black bear, last chance type of thing if the bear spray fails my buddy. He doesn't have another suitable gun and isn't really going to buy a new one for his one month hike through the mountains. I just want to set him up with the best load as possible with what I have in available casting equipment. The 170gr in the heaviest/largest bullet I have for a .38/.357. I have water dropped these bullets so they will be hard enough to break bone if need be.

Thanks,

BLB.

[Oldfeller]

Uh, Bad Luck Bill, in North Carolina the Applachian Trail is 100% under Parks & Recreation (Federal) control. Carrying concealed may not be the smartest thing if you get caught doing it ....

Say you pulled it out and you actually saved your butt by shooting a rabid, known mankiller "bad to the bone" bear -- they will still find you guilty of discharging a firearm in a Park, carrying it concealed on Government Property and then they will send you to the big house for 3 life sentences for killing old Yogi, a pet government "troubled" relocation program bear ....

Now, say the Feds monitor this site (and they do) do you suppose they could cross reference their records and databases to alert themselves to when you enter the park and search your bags to find your .38?

Mebbe. Or it could just be paranoia creeping in on you again. I mean, like somebody is reading your secret PMs or something like that. Black helicopters. Conspiracies. Or maybe they really ARE out to get you --you never can tell about things out there ..... Monk's got it right, you know.

<g>

Oldgrinnin'feller

[lar45]

How long is the bullet, and how long is the loaded round?

[David R]

My dad always said if you ae going to shoot a bear with a 38, file off the front site so it doesn't hurt so much pulling it out of your butt when the bear just gets PO'ed at you and stuffs the gun where the sun don't shine. He said the same thing for a 30-30.

:) :)

David

Lots of loads for that boolit in the Lyman manual, but 5.0 unique is the best. They list no +P loads for that boolit.

[keeper89]

5.0 gr. Unique under that Keith will work but you may have to adjust the seating depth depending on how long the chambers are cut. Been my standard load with that boolit for many years......

[Bad luck Bill]

If He's going through state forests, which he will be, it is perfectly legal to carry a gun, as long as it isn't concealed. Beyond that he does have a carry permit. Yeah, I know, laws vary from state to state. At least I know how to properly spell Apalachian now!:-D Thanks for the info guys.

BLB.

[Baldy]

Frist of all I would hate to have to do battle with a bear with a Taurus 85. If a bear is charging things are going to get close in a hurry. For bear country I would not trust anything under a .44mag. Most bear encounters are a surprise. I would want that .44 on my hip and ready at all times, not in my pack. Good Luck.

[Old Ironsights]

Wrong gun. Use one that is "legal" almost everywhere...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_4558.jpg

1-1/4" oz slugs in front of 50gr 3F oughta do the trick.... :shock:

That or 000 buck. :twisted:

[9.3X62AL]

Another vote for 5.0 grains of Unique for any 38 Special load using 150-170 grain boolits. It will be a bit of a handful in a J-frame-sized platform, but if deployed defensively--I don't think the operator will notice.

Just my take on the matter......if I was genuinely concerned about bear problems, I would have a rifle with me. A 38 Special is awfully light tackle to play a black bear with, and a "floor caliber" for meth-fueled marijuana growers.

[robertbank]

Weight is probably an issue I suspect and you said he didn't want to buy another firearm. For Black Bears your buddy should be fine with his .38. Cast them hard and he will be OK. Blacks are not all that big and ranges will be real short if he is attacked. Bear spray is fine but it makes your eyes water and it really makes the bears mad and that generally is not a good thing.:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Too funny, Robert!

My idea of Bear Spray is 150 grain soft points from an M1A or HK-91. I should add at this juncture.....that I have an agreement of long standing with bears. Since neither of us taste very good to each another, I have agreed to not go into the forest looking to mess with them, if they agree to not come down out of same forest to mess with me. There was one property rights argument over blackberries in 2002 that came nigh to conflict, but was resolved without violence. That bear was obviously out of the loop in terms of briefing-in status. I'll tell ya--when a 44 Magnum revolver starts feeling like light tackle, it's time for a rifle. At the time of this particular engagement, something belt-fed of at least 30 caliber would have been quite comforting. Vulcan 20mm's don't pack well, though.

[lar45]

Old Ironsights, that is a wonderful looking beast you have there. Is it Stainless? What size bore does it have?!? Have you clocked your 1 1/4oz slugs?!?
I borrowed a Cluster Bomb mold awhile back that drops 4 small buckshot stuck to each other in a square. I've shot some out of my 12 ga 20" coach gun and they shot beutifully. I was just haveing visions of stacking 3 or 4 of them in each barrel with a wad on top. Now that would make a wonderful pistol round.
I thought about loading some in my Howdah but they are too large for my 70 cal bore.
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/howda/18mm9.bmp
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/howda/18mm5.bmp
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/misc/700-breach-01.jpg
Hear's a round next to a .475 Linebaugh.

I vote for the double pistol also.

[Oldfeller]

Ack! and I can't spell worth mudpies either .....

Well, I hear tell that bears like to hang around the trail, seems like them yuppies like to feed the bears whenever they appear, the yuppies shedding their back packs and excercising their Adidas by quickly taking off that-away.

Ol Yogi then strolls over to dine on the impromtu "picnic basket" which then becomes a habitual easy meal ticket for a lazy bear and Yogi winds up getting darted and put in the "troubled bear" relocation program.

So, if your buddy sees a bear make sure he throws down something and runs the other way .... that's what the bear is expecting.

Shoot him in the face a few times with a .38 and it will just piss him off that he didn't get his free feed but got stung in the face by your peashooter instead -- Yogi is a liberal welfare recipient at heart you see -- don't deny him his rights or he will get all sorts of indignant with you. He thinks you are a yuppie, so he might just take you malling to get even with you.

Don't bother shooting the poor dumb protected liberal minded bear. Instead, buy a king sized pack of X-Lax and throw that down when accosted and run off a bit then stop and watch while the bear snarfs down the expected politically correct "abandoned candy bar".

Then the park rangers will wonder why you are laughing your ass off as you stroll on down the parkway.....

Leave the poor bear a roll of Charmen, OK? Be nice.

Oldfeller

[9.3X62AL]

Oldfeller--

This methodology sounds like the same program tried by Democrats on the USA, called "Great Society" or some other catchy sobriquet. It results in a crime-ridden midden like south-central Los Angeles, and for cops is like catch-and-release bass fishing, complete with sanctions for caught fish that are either killed upon contact or injured in the live-well. Such ideas don't work with either humans or the "shaggy free-booters" as described by John Muir.

[waksupi]

Geez, you guys are scaring me. I had a bear in my hide barrels this past week. No big deal. And I don't really think anything of going outside without a gun. No idea if it is a black, or a griz. I bow hunt all the time in areas where both are around, and have never been bothered by them. As long as they are wild bears, and haven't been drugged by the FWP, they will do thier best to get away from you. Just make sure you hike with someone you can outrun.

[Old Ironsights]

I vote for the double pistol also.

Sweet Howda. :-D That thing need a tax stamp? How'd you get it into C&R? (I't's original +100yrs?)

Mine is an "in the white" Navy Arms 12ga/.73 smoothie caplock, chopped & channeled by Roy Stroh out of Georgia. He normally makes Flint Wall Guns, but he made an exception for my Howda project.

I'm afraid to chrony the slugs because at 25ft I get about Minute of Yugo/Bear and don't want to buy a new chrony.

That mould sounds sweeeeet! :twisted: Where'd ya get it? I want one. :twisted:

[beagle]

The best defense against a bear is to be sure that you can outrun whoever you're with on that hiking trip.

People that say you can't outrun a bear have never seen me run when I'm scared...../beagle

[Bret4207]

I'm in the "2 legged predator is more of a problem" camp. Black bears and a 170 gr 358429? RIP Yogi.

[Bad luck Bill]

Hehehe,

Right on. Though I am surprised that so many people are worried about drug crazed meth heads and deliverence throw-backs. I think the chances are pretty slim in either direction but everyday is "anything can happen day" in world gone mad. Sure is a great bullet, isn't it? I just got my first set of Lyman handles ( I had been using modified Lee handles for my Lyman mold blocks) and was amazed at their size and craftsmenship! Even more so when I saw the finished product: a beautifully hot and shiney #358429! What a serious looking bullet!

BLB.

[lar45]

Sweet Howda. :-D That thing need a tax stamp? How'd you get it into C&R? (I't's original +100yrs?)

That mould sounds sweeeeet! :twisted: Where'd ya get it? I want one. :twisted:

Yep its an Original 140+ yrs and it still locks up very tight. It's also a rifled bore instead of smooth bore. It's a pin fire instead of centerfire, so loading is abit different. I started by turning down 50 BMG cases, but then found some 16ga CBC brass hulls and can cut them down to 1.6" and turn most of the rim off to get them to fit. I have to drill a hole next to the rim to put a short pin(no3 nail cut to about 3/4" with both ends rounded) I then put a no. 11 cap inside the case upside down and push the pin down inside the cup. Then fill with powder, wads and a boolit on top. Just don't knock the protruding pin around so it comes out of the muzzle loader cap. The pins can be held in place with a drop of clear fingernail polish.
I borrowed the mold from someone here, 45nut I think. I saw one for sale a couple of years back but they wanted something like $100 ish for it. The cluster bombs fit perfectly inside of a shot cup and they stack together one twisted 1/4 turn on top of the other. In my coach gun they flew pretty much together out to 25 yds and shot better than the Lee slugs I loaded also.

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/misc/c-bomb-01.jpg
Here's a pic of the cluster bombs next to the Lee 12 ga slug.
the clusters are .713" across, .308" high and weigh 170 grains.

[robertbank]

The original Weapon of Mass Destruction! Might have been what old Saddam had up his sleeve, young George may have it right all along.

That is truly neat.

Take Care

Bob