Big Hairy Questions - Fast Powder vs Slow Powder for CB in Rifles

[DoctorBill]

I haven't been reloading Cast Bullets in Rifles for very long (a year !?).
Have done reloads for pistols.

I am now into Military Surplus rifles (have a dozen of them) and have the molds to make cast
bullets for ALL of them. Mostly to save money...

I can usually find 'some' powder load for each of them, somewhere.

What bugs me though is that each one needs a different powder !

I don't want to buy 15 different powders - I would like to settle down
to one powder for all of them.

Is that asking too much ? Seriously ?

I have been studying powder burn rates (have a nice table I found).
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html
versus this
http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_relative_burn_rate.htm
which is hideously complex.

I am drifting toward Reloder-15 (since I have a couple lbs of it) and have tried it.
Seems to work well in my 6.5mm Carcano (25 gr / 170 gr GC'd LEE Cruise Missile)
and in my 6.5mm Swedish (30 gr /150 gr FMJBT).

I have read about UNIQUE being a good CB load at about 10 - 14 grains in all MilSurp's. (Harris' paper). Unique is relatively a fast burner.

The main thing I want to say is that I am a target shooter (no hunting) and I want to shoot
reduced loads to preserve my 'bad shoulder' from becoming crippled by thumping recoils.

Here are some questions:

1. Is a slower burning powder safer to use in Rifles ?

2. Can I take a jacketed bullet powder load and drop it down maybe 75% to try with a Cast bullet of about the same weight ?
I did that with RL-15 in the 6.5 Carcano and 6.5 Swede and it seemed to work well (`1500 ft/sec).

3. Is it safe to substitute a powder close to the published one in Burn Rate (the list above that I spoke of) ?

4. I would like to use a slower burning powder for the sake of safety in these older rifles. Am I being a putz?

5. How low a load is 'too low' ? I heard that loading to low a load is also dangerous - can cause a barrel to burst. (Sounds like BS)

6. Just obtained a Steyr-Mannlicher 8mmx56R and all the reloading paraphernalia for it.

I am thinking of trying 30 gr of RL-15 in it (with T.P. filler to keep the powder by the primer) pushing a
205 gr Gas Capped Cast Lubed Bullet.

That reasoning is based on a LEE "Modern Reloading" 2nd ED load of 40 gr of XMR-4350 as starting load
for a 200 gr jacketed bullet in the 8mm Mauser (not the Steyr!).

XMR-4350 is a slightly slower burning powder than RL-15, according to the chart.

That shouldn't blow my head off....no ? Is my reasoning reasonable ?

Summarizing this mess....I would like to use one powder for Cast Bullets, if possible, and be as safe as I can whilst still experimenting.

As to Jacketed bullet - Hell, 99% of the manuals have all the data that I need.

Have I asked too many questions in one post ?

DoctorBill

[oldhickory]

You'll probably find Unique to be the answear to most of your questions. Nothing wrong with R15, but why use 2-3 times the powder you need for 1,500fps? For mid-power cast loads in bolt guns, I prefer IMR4227 myself, generaly around 22-25gr. with a heavy boolit and Unique for gallery loads and a light boolit, (around 4.5gr and a tuft of dacron).

Just what I use most for rifle loads and cast, (of probably 30 different powders in my locker) there are many different opinions of course.

[Larry Gibson]

DoctorBill

I am now into Military Surplus rifles (have a dozen of them) and have the molds to make cast
bullets for ALL of them. Mostly to save money...

I can usually find 'some' powder load for each of them, somewhere.

What bugs me though is that each one needs a different powder !

I don't want to buy 15 different powders - I would like to settle down
to one powder for all of them.

Is that asking too much ? Seriously ?

No it isn't asking too much at all.

I have been studying powder burn rates (have a nice table I found).
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html
versus this
http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_relative_burn_rate.htm

I am drifting toward Reloder-15 (since I have a couple lbs of it) and have tried it.
Seems to work well in my 6.5mm Carcano (25 gr / 170 gr GC'd LEE Cruise Missile)
and in my 6.5mm Swedish (30 gr /150 gr FMJBT).

I have read about UNIQUE being a good CB load at about 10 - 14 grains in all MilSurp's. (Harris' paper). Unique is relatively a fast burner.

The main thing I want to say is that I am a target shooter (no hunting) and I want to shoot
reduced loads to preserve my 'bad shoulder' from becoming crippled by thumping recoils.

Here are some questions:

1. Is a slower burning powder safer to use in Rifles ?

Yes & no. Yes in that if used right most medium and slower burning powders that are useful in a cartridge can be used. The problem is that some slow burners, if reduced too much, can creat a dangerous condition called SEE and can damage your rifles and you.

2. Can I take a jacketed bullet powder load and drop it down maybe 75% to try with a Cast bullet of about the same weight ?
I did that with RL-15 in the 6.5 Carcano and 6.5 Swede and it seemed to work well (`1500 ft/sec).

Yes, you can do that with some medium burning powders that ignite easily. With some slow burners that are burn sensitive to certain pressure ranges it can be dangerous.

3. Is it safe to substitute a powder close to the published one in Burn Rate (the list above that I spoke of) ?

Yes, if you are starting low and working up as you should be doing. Also substituting some ball powders for IMR type powders, even of the same burning rate can cause problems because many times ball powders are hard to ignite consistently.

4. I would like to use a slower burning powder for the sake of safety in these older rifles. Am I being a putz?

If you are a "putz" then many of us are too:-)

5. How low a load is 'too low' ? I heard that loading to low a load is also dangerous - can cause a barrel to burst. (Sounds like BS)

Not BS at all, do a search of SEE.

6. Just obtained a Steyr-Mannlicher 8mmx56R and all the reloading
paraphernalia for it.
I am thinking of trying 30 gr of RL-15 in it (with T.P. filler to keep the powder by the primer). That shouldn't blow my head off....

No it shouldn't but I'd suggest a dacron filler in lieu of the TP.

Summarizing this mess....I would like to use one powder for Cast Bullets, if possible, and be as safe as I can whilst still experimenting.

RL15 may very well work for you. I use 4895 in all of my milsurps and other rifles as well. Many times bulk milsurp 4895 can be had at reasonable prices. It's pretty hard to go wrong with 28 - 30 gr in most any milsurp .30/.31/8mm with a 1/2 to 3/4 dacron filler over 160 -210 gr cast bullets. The .30 carbine being the exception. 26.5 - 28 gr works very well under the 150 -160 gr cast bullets in the 7.62x39 with no dacron.

BTW; 3031 is another excellent powder for such loads.

With lighter weight cast bullets I do use the faster burning powders. I use a lot of Bullseye for the really light weight cast bullets up to 1200 fps. Unique does work good for 1400 - 1500 fps. For 130 - 150 gr bullets I like to use 4759 (which is one of the "slow" fast burning powders (2400, 4227, 4198 and 5744 being the others) with the dacron filler. Ignition and accuracy is more consistent than with a medium burning powder.

As to Jacketed bullet - Hell, 99% of the manuals have all I need.

I find 4895 often gives excellent if not optimum loads with jacked bullets in those same milsurps.

Larry Gibson

[DoctorBill]

Mr. Gibson....I will reply in order of your comments (which are much appreciated, BTW !)

I have read up on SEE and I get the impression that SEE can be caused by
the powder not being back in the cartridge in front of the primer hole.
Thus, my new obsession with 'fillers'.

BTW - I cannot find actual DACRON anywhere to save my soul.
All fabric stores now sell the ubiquitous "Polyester".
I have found a place selling Bamboo Fiber matting !
I have references to Toilet Paper, Dried Coffee Grounds, Cotton, Drier Lint, and Wool (British use it).
Cream of Wheat packs up - probably because it is not pre-dried in the oven.
Tried to buy Shotgun Shell filler (BPI ?) - no one has it locally.
Someone sells a white granular filler for this purpose, but I can't remember what it is called.
Questions about fillers brings forth everyone who doesn't use them
- like people who won't use studded snow tires. You'd think fillers were an immoral thing to do !

If by Ball Powders, you mean spherical - I have been convinced to stay away from them altogether.
Ignition supposedly is variable.

As to lighter weight cast bullets, - define lighter weight. What is the dividing line at ?
All of my Cast Bullets are 170 gr and above, so I don't consider them light and have not tried the faster burning powders.

I know Unique and 2400 are used a lot because of the Ed Harris article of 1993. I have not tried them.
I find it odd that a fast burning powder would work well in a rifle.
A really fast increase in pressure, you would think, would be dangerous.

There is a lot to learn. But I don't want to wait until I have a PhD in reloading.
I'm 68 and who knows, I might have the "big one" tomorrow, as Red Fox used to say !

I want to get out there and Do It before I can't do squat anymore, but sit in a chair and wait for Mr. Black to show up.

DoctorBill (PhD Biochemist retired from Bayer A.G. Corp.)

PS - http://www.gmdr.com/lever/pistolpowi.htm

[MT Gianni]

Check out XMP-5744 or what ever the current prefix is. Accurate makes it or imports it.

[rollmyown]

I know it's your intention to reduce your current stock of powder to 1 from 15. Fow what it's worth you can get more flexibility and better taylored loads by reducing your inventory to 3 powders. Somethin fast, something medium, and one in between. Aim for powder that is not position sensitive if you are intending to use very reduced loads. Just my 2c worth!

[looseprojectile]

Closest I have come is SR4759.

You really need the Lyman cast bullet handbook. It has all the information on all the milsurps and hundreds of others also. Cast bullets only. Has lots of other neat pertinent stuff too. Buy it from Amazon and it will be at your door in less than a week.

Buy yourself some Dacron / polyester / fiberfil fluff that is meant to be used for stuffing in pillows. Looks like shiney cotton fluff.

Welcome to Cast Boolits. May your time here be as enjoyable as mine is.

Life is good

[looseprojectile]

Your concerns about using fast powder are well taken.
I have just re read your posts and I want to clarify loading fast powder in rifles for you.
The fastest powder we can buy is Bullseye. Bullseye is used in the .38 special in the amount of Three to Four point five grains for a target load. The .38 special is a fairly puny cartridge. Good accuracy can be had at very low velocity.
Most rifles respond very accurately to low velocity loads too.
In rifles such as the 8mm Mauser with a two hundred grain boolit Red Dot is prescribed in the amount of ten to twelve grains.
Red Dot powder is nearly as fast burning as Bullseye.
Completely safe if you don't use an excessive amount.


Please use loads that are published in the loading manuals for any powder and boolit combination that you intend to use.

Life is good

[RU shooter]

I would have to say I'm content with having Unique and 2400 for most of my shooting needs ,Like you I only shoot target and those two powders handle my needs well with great accuracy .No wadding or filler needed and there is published data for both of them ,Why burn more powder than needed to get similar vel and accuracy for target work out to 200 yds But I'm a frugal type.



Tim

[Maven]

DoctorBill, Unless you have an extraordinarily odd milsurp rifle, you'll find that Red Dot, Unique, 2400, 5744, H/IMR 4198, IMR 3031 will work quite well. Milsurp powders are also usable, e.g., WC 860 and 872 and IMR 5010 on the slow side* and WC 820 on the fast side (AA #9; but no more than 21 grs. in '06 - 8 x 57mm cartridges with CB's up to 200 grs.). As for fillers, Cream of Wheat works (search for Ken Mollohan's COW Loads), as does powdered bran, and spherical shot buffer; BUT, adding them is an extra step; usally not more than 1.5cc is needed; and they DO raise pressure (which is partly the point of using them with some slow burning milsurp powders, e.g. IMR 5010).

*You'll need LR mag. primers and ~46 grs. or more with '06-sized cartridges, which adds to the ejecta and recoil. While useful, mostly because they're less expensive than cannister powders, it's a false economy because you'll use ~ twice as much of them than 4198 (24 grs.) or 2400 (16 grs.)


P.S. Lots of info. in our archives about fillers. Some of them, e.g., spherical shot buffer and powdered bran work with SOME slow burning powders (5010) in almost full case loads.

[Larry Gibson]

DoctorBill

I have read up on SEE[/B] and I get the impression that SEE can be caused by
the powder not being back in the cartridge in front of the primer hole.
Thus, my new obsession with 'fillers'.

SEE is caused by several things happening at once. Powder position is just one of them. Powder sensitivity to ignition is also a major factor. Simply positioning a slow burning powder next to the primer does not, in some cases, make the ignition any better

BTW - I cannot find actual DACRON anywhere to save my soul.
All fabric stores now sell the ubiquitous "Polyester".

Us “old guys” still call it “Dacron” which is the original trade name for polyester. I buy it in sheets from fabric stores called “batting”. I get it in 5/8 to 1” thickness and cut it into strips 5/8 to ¾” (eyeballing it) wide using sharp scissors. Then when used I cut it into 1/3 to 1 ½ gr chucks depending on what’s needed. I also eyeball the chunk cutting based on a weighed example chunk. Very easy to do.

I have found a place selling Bamboo Fiber matting !
I have references to Toilet Paper, Dried Coffee Grounds, Cotton, Drier Lint, and Wool (British use it).
Cream of Wheat packs up - probably because it is not pre-dried in the oven.
Tried to buy Shotgun Shell filler (BPI ?) - no one has it locally.
Someone sells a white granular filler for this purpose, but I can't remember what it is called.
Questions about fillers brings forth everyone who doesn't use them
like people who won't use studded snow tires. You'd think fillers were an immoral thing to do !

I gave up on all the above a long time ago when I started using Dacron as a wad 1st and then as a filler only. Many confuse “wad” with “filler” but there is a distinct difference. Both improve ignition and thus, most often, accuracy. I use the filler to prevent powder migration in the case caused by recoil or transportation. BTW; I do not use fillers with the faster shotgun and pistol powders. I use the fillers with light weight bullets in larger volume cases with 4227, 4198, 4759 and 5744. I also use the filler with all medium and slow burning powders in cases where loading density is below 80 – 85%.

If by Ball Powders, you mean spherical - I have been convinced to stay away from them altogether.
Ignition supposedly is variable.

Yes, ignition is “variable” with ball powders. The faster burning ones mostly work well but some don’t. some of the slower ones work ok also but most often only when close to a full case is used with a heavy bullet. Until you have more experience best to avoid them.

As to lighter weight cast bullets, [ - define lighter weight. What is the dividing line at ?
All of my Cast Bullets are 170 gr and above, so I don't consider them light and have not tried the faster burning powders.

The weight is dependent on the range of bullet weights available for the specific caliber. Take .30/.31/8mm for example; bullets of 80 – 150 gr are “light”, bullets of 160 – 180 are “medium” and bullets of 190+ are “heavy”. The 175 is a “heavy” in the 6.5 but definitely a “light" in 35 to 45 caliber.

I know Unique and 2400 are used a lot because of the Ed Harris article of 1993. I have not tried them.
I find it odd that a fast burning powder would work well in a rifle.
A really fast increase in pressure, you would think, would be dangerous.

All powders can be “dangerous” if not used correctly. This is why we must use a powder that ignites efficiently and burns correctly for the application at hand. The real “danger” from the use of faster powders is the possibility of a double/triple charge. Safe reloading practices prevent this. Get sloppy in your loading and you’re asking for trouble regardless of the powder used. Just be safe and pay attention.[/B

There is a lot to learn. But I don't want to wait until I have a PhD in reloading.
I'm 68 and who knows, I might have the "big one" tomorrow, as Red Fox used to say !

[B]I’m assuming you have and have read Lyman’s Cast bullet Handbook? That will give you the basic education. Graduate level questions can be answered here but just remember that there is most often more than one correct answer to a question regarding cast bullet loading and shooting. The advanced stuff is “rocket science” and you can get there if you want with some experience and more knowledge. Many think you can get there with a Lee Starter kit and having cast a couple hundred bullets. That isn’t so. I’m sure with your education you understand what I’m talking about.

I want to get out there and Do It before I can't do squat anymore, but sit in a chair and wait for Mr. Black to show up.

BTW; I refer to “old guys” as based on experience not age. However it looks like we are both approaching the aged “old guy status….maybe in another 10 or 15 years

Larry Gibson

[Just Duke]

:popcorn:

[looseprojectile]

Have it in my Favorites!!!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/f-27.html

#295 has C.E Harris's article.

Have a nice day.

Life is good

[DoctorBill]

Jeez, looseprojectile !

Do ya think maybe I could read all that in the rest of my lifetime !

Thank you...I just started on the 8mm threads....looking for loads.

Lot to read.

Just loaded up six 8x56R Steyr rounds with 205 gr LEE molded slugs, Gas Checked with
30 gr of RL-15 and seated them to 72mm OAL. Toilet Paper Filler - Charmin, BTW.

http://www.mynetimages.com/6c414dac82.jpg

Now, of course, it has started to rain...so I'll have to wait a few days
to see how that works out.
Don't want to set my "F-1 Chrony" out in the rain....me neither.

Thanks again.

DoctorBill

[azcruiser]

Trail Boss across the board 222rem--45-70 no fillers needed can't double load stuff is like little donuts and fluffy-- bottle to bottle compare 1 lb bottle of unique 2400 the rest all same size
now same size bottle of Trail Boss 9 O/Z ? Try 10 gr in your 6.5x55 and any weight bullet
amazing stuff

[Char-Gar]

Here is the base line scoop about your question.

1. Fast powders such as 2400, 4227, 4759, Unique and the like reach their peak pressure quickly and sorta "spank" the bullet down the barrel. When to much pressure is applied to a cast bullet too fast, the bullet can "accordian" and do all sorts of wierd things which arre not good for accuracy.

2. Therefore, fast powders work very well up to the pressures needed to push a bullet about 1.8K and after than accuracy goes south very quick. The positive side is plenty fast enough for most uses, accuracy is usually good and powder cost is held down.

3. The slower powders reach their pressure peak later and sorta "shove" the bullet down the barrel, resulting in less distortion at higher pressure.

4. Therefore, the medium burning powders like 3031, 4895 and the like do well at velocities over 1.8K fps. There is not much reason to use them unless you are you want to go for the higher velocities.

5. There very slow powders like 4831, WC872 and the like can be used in cast full quanities and they can in most cases achieve all the velocity with round is capable of with cast bullets and give excellent accuracy in the bargin for reason #3 above.

6. There is no need to stock 15 powders. I only use two. 2400 on the faster side and WC872 on the very slow side. 95% of my loads use 2400, which is also good for magnum pistol use. There are a number of faster powders that do as well. Unique is good for the lower end, but a little to fast for my liking at the higher end.

The bottom line is that if you can't get good accuracy with 2400 and others and gas check cast bullet in the 1.4 to 1.7 K kfps range, the problem is not with the powder.

If you have a case with a capacity of 40 or more grains of powder, surplus WC872 will give you top accuracy and top end velocity in most cases.

Many folks like to make this much harder than it is. They have their favorite powders which work for them and think they have found the pot of gold the end of the rainbow. New shooters are awash with information and data, some of which seem to be in conflict.

Cast bullet shooting is considerably more complex than jacketed bullets, but there are some principles which understood will help you get good results. Best of luck to you...

[DoctorBill]

Chargar...

Before my head explodes with all the information on this one Thread,
and before I go to bed and dream of reloading, I wanted to ask about
SPHERICAL POWDERS like the WC872.

I have read so much and for several weeks now and my head is swimming,
but I remember somewhere comments that I should be
very wary of spherical powders as they do not ignite reliably and
can cause S.E.E.

Don't ask me where I had seen that...as I said my head is swimming with powders,
cases, fillers, ignition, cast vs jacketed, all the different powder manufacturers,
reloading manual data....

Is what I remember reading BS or not....?

DoctorBill - calling it a day.

[oldhickory]

Doc, I've been using Ball Powders for decades with no issues other than using the proper primer for accuracy. They measure extreamly well and I get some of my best accuracy with W748 and BLC-2 in .223, .308, and .30WCF using j-bullets. The only cast load I use a Ball for is in the .30WCF, simply because it works and gives near j-bullet velocity and accuracy with that particular load. It's a near full case cap. load, maybe what you've read pertains to greatly reduced loads using med-slow Ball Powders? I've never had an urge or reason to use greatly reduced charges of med-slow Ball, so I can't answear that.

Some say to use a magnum primer with Ball, some say it isn't nessary. I've found the best accuracy with j-bullets is with magnum primers, but I also get good results with Federal 210 and Winchester std, I just don't use Rem or CCI std primers with Ball. Ball Powder may be a bit harder to ignite than extruded or flake, so just use a warmer primer.

In short, I use Ball Powders quite a bit loading certain full power loads and j-bullets, but very limited with cast simply because there are other powders that I've traditionally used. Ball, or Spherical powders are nothing to be afraid of when used within their proper applications and guide lines.

For myself, I've found IMR4227 to be the most useful over-all powder for cast boolits in rifles...Others may argue for their "pet" powder with good reason also, (and they may be right) but for me, IMR4227 works well in every rifle caliber I've ever tried it in, (usually between 22-25gr. with a dacron tuft works very well in all my .30s with 150-200gr. boolits). When I got my first .30 mold years ago, the fellow at the gun shop told me that IMR4227 was the powder he always used for cast boolit rifle loads since he began casting after WWII.

Right now I'm working with "gallery" loads for my .308 Winchester FWT. using small charges of fast burning powders and boolits of around 100gr. You just have to decide what boolit and velocity you want for a specific application and work from there with a powder that will give the preformance desired. Making an M1 fire cast accurately and reliably requires a far different powder than an accurate plinker load with a bolt gun.

[JudgeBAC]

I'm with MT Gianni on this one: XMP-5744 is a good powder for Mil Surps. Mike Venturino mentioned it several times in his articles on Mil surps.

[oldhickory]

I'm with MT Gianni on this one: XMP-5744 is a good powder for Mil Surps. Mike Venturino mentioned it several times in his articles on Mil surps.

I have a lb. of that on order at the local gun shop. It's kinda tough to get around here.

[Maven]

DoctorBill, Not Chargar, but I've used 16+ lbs. of WC 860, a ball powder which is almost the same as WC 872, and never had even an inkling of a problem with it. As Chargar mentioned, as long as the case capacity is >40 grs. and you use almost a caseful of it (with LR Mag. primers), there will be little chance of a secondary explosion. That means charging at least to the neck-shoulder junction, little/no compression, and NO fillers.*


*I tried WC 860 with and without spherical shot buffer in various .30cal. cartridges and found no benefit in doing so with one exception. To wit, in the 7.65 x 53mm Arg. Mau., using Ly. #314299, the addition of ~1cc spherical shot buffer allowed me to drop the powder charge to 43 grs. (from 44) and resulted in more efficient burning as evidenced by clean necks and little unburned powder in the fired cases.

[Char-Gar]

Dr. Bill... I am with Maven and others who don't see any particular issues with ball powder vs. stick or flake powder. The same rules apply to each.

With very slow powders like 'WC872 and others it takes a light compression of the powder to get a good burn. Most often you can just use a case full. You do this by using a long drop tube or shaking the loaded cases. I set a loading block full of charged cases on top of the vibrating case tumble for a couple of second.

If the full case produced more velocity that works well for your bullet and alloy, then I add PSB (Precision Shotshell Buffer) on top of a little less powder and still get compression. My best 30-06 load ever is 50/WC872/1 cc PSB/Remington 9.5 primer. I have not found a magnum primer to be needed. I am a beliver that a tight powder column works best so I use fillers where some others don't. I won't swear I am right, but that is the way i do it.

You can purchase it on line from Precision Reloading. Google will give you the addy.

As I stated in myprior post a fast burning powder will do for almost all of your cast bullet shooting with the parameters I metioned. I am a Geezer who started reloading when Dupont (IMR and SR) and Hercules were the only game in town. Hodgen was still selling WWII surplus 4895, Ball C and 4831. These were the powders I used.

As time marched on, new powders became available and I gave them a try. Some of them did as well for me as the old standbys, others didn't. But none of them did better. After a while I just quit buying new powders. I am certain some of them work as well as my old favorites, but not having tried them (and don't plan to) I can't separate the sheep from the goats, powder wise that is.

While not a new powder Reloader - 15 came after I quit trying new powders, so I can offer no counsel on it's use.

There is something to be said about sticking with a few powder and becoming very familiar with what they will do and don't do. I see very little benefit to follow powder fad and fashion and jack rabbit around looking for the Holy Grain.

As I said 4759, 4227 and 2400 are outstanding cast bullet powders and I know that to a certainity from decades of use. I buy 2400 in bulk, not because it is better than the other two, but because I also use it in the .357 and 44 Magnum pistol rounds.

I am sorry about the data overload you are getting. Much of it is good solid information and some of it is..well let's just say..inaccurate!

Take care and keep em in the X ring.

[1Shirt]

Dr.Bill, If Larry Gibson, Charger, 44 Man, or Beagle comment on a thread I pay attention. Like Charger, I buy 2400 in bulk because, I use it for all my milsurps, my 357's, 44's, and 45-70. I use a fair amount of unique as well. Being cheap, is one of my reason for these powders and a little goes a long way in comparison to some of the slower powders. On all cases where my loads with 2400 or Unique, or other fast pdrs such as Red/Blue dot, I weigh all finished loads of an electronic scale, because I made a mistake once that I do not intend to make again. Regardless of your reloading sequence, with faster powders that do not fill at least half the case, I strongly recommend this practice.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Volowner]

Go with Trail Boss. I called IMR one day and they told me that the starting load for any cartridge is to fill the case, dump the contents on a scale, measure what's in there, reduce to 3/4 of that amount. Start there and work up. Call them yourself if you like. Their only warning was not to use it in smaller cases, like the 25-20.

You'll find this powder fills or nearly fills the case on almost any cartridge. I've got very low (usually in the teens) extreme spreads on everything I've used it in--45 colt, 44 special, 38 special, 45-70, 30-06, 375 Winchester (38-55), 7mm Mag, 7mm-08.

While I'm not ruling out the possibility, I have not yet found a "maximum load." All loads are very shooter friendly--mild kick, accurate and use very little powder.

Trail Boss is a voluminous powder. A "one-pound" container will only hold 9 ounces. It's great for filling up big cases for velocities up to about 1400-1500 fps.

[DoctorBill]

Methinks I'll buy a bottle of Trail Boss Powder !

If it is only 9 oz, it must cost 9/16ths of what a lb of regular smokeless
powder is going for - about $24 here in Spokane, WA at a discount
Sporting Goods Store (The White Elephant).

Right....? lol Ya, sure...ya betcha! :Fire:

BTW - is it still "Smokeless" ? Does it burn cleanly ?

I wonder how they 'puff' up the volume of the granules ?

I think it would be a gas to work on powder research...until you blow yourself to bits,
that is..... !

...and another thing - some smokeless powder contains Nitroglycerine which a
small amount of makes the Heart beat like mad ! Has anyone ever had heart
palpitations from handling double based smokeless powders ?

DoctorBill

[Char-Gar]

"and another thing - some smokeless powder contains Nitroglycerine which a
small amount of makes the Heart beat like mad ! Has anyone ever had heart
palpitations from handling double based smokeless powders ?"

You are kidding, right?

[DoctorBill]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

"Today, propellants based on nitrocellulose alone (typically an ether-alcohol colloid of nitrocellulose) are described as single-base powder,
whereas cordite-like mixtures using nitroglycerin to dissolve the nitrocellulose are known as double-base powder.
Single and double-base smokeless powders now make up the vast majority of propellants used in firearms."

This is also quoted from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin
Scroll down to the bottom.

"Side effects The side effects of nitroglycerin include lack of sexual desire, headache, painful urination and increased bowel movements.
Patients are often told to sit or lie down during and immediately after taking nitroglycerin to reduce the risk of low blood pressure.
A drop in blood pressure can be accompanied by weakness or dizziness.
Shortly after the invention of nitroglycerin, this substance was noticed to be capable of inducing a violent headache.
Headaches are the most prominent side effect of nitrate therapy. This was due to the release of nitric oxide (NO) by nitroglycerin.
Such studies have led to propose that NO may be the causative molecule in migraine pain.
The importance of NO as a potential initiator of the migraine attack opens new directions for other vascular headaches and
pharmacological treatment of migraines."

Nitroglycerin is dangerous to handle for a number of reasons !

Look here:
http://www.healthsquare.com/drugs/126792.htm


Another quote:
"It can be dangerous, yes. It can trigger a dangerous drop in blood pressure and resulting dizziness and confusion, plus it can cause
heart palpitations, shortness of breath, convulsions, and a number of other bad things.
In high enough doses it can be fatal.
However, a small dose, like the normal amount a patient with a heart condition might take, in a healthy person isn't particularly dangerous,
and will probably have no noticeable effects.

Medical attention should be sought if the person feels dizzy, short of breath, or has a rapid pulse."


Nitroglycerin can be absorbed thru the skin (thus patches mentioned above).
I suppose if you were to handle double based smokeless powder with bare skin, you maybe could get an episode of low blood pressure and headaches.
If you inhaled any of the dust, then probably for sure !

It only takes a 300 micrograms (1/200th grain) to affect the blood and heart.
http://www.rxlist.com/nitrostat-drug.htm

I wasn't kidding - though I know it is probably not a problem when
reloading unless one does something stupid (which has been known to happen !).


If a dog or a kid ingested some - Yikes !

0.01 grain is not very much considering that we load 30 to 70 grains of this
stuff into our brass and repeat that multiple times.
If I remember, these powders are on the order of maybe a couple percent Nitro...

Then there are several other goodies in there....just don't eat the stuff or inhale any of the dust from it.

I guess if all you want to do is reload and don't care to 'talk' with your wife because you "have a headache"
and have been on the pot a lot, you are getting too much Nitro in your system.....lol.


DoctorBill

[Char-Gar]

Oh, I know about double base and single base powders and the nitro content. I also know what nitro can do to the heart. I have had a few of those little pills stuck under my tongue. Gawd awful headach!

I just thought it was a little over the top to worry about any nitro in gun powder handled in the reloading proces. We have been using such powders such powders for over a century will no ill effect. We don't get headachs and heart rate change from such things. Folks with a high degree of specialized knowledge do tend to overthink some issues. It is true in my case, but on different subjects.

I really thought it was a little dry humor on your part. No slight intended!

[1Shirt]

Yep Charger, Over thought it is! Some people take a lot of fun out of life by being way to serious on trivial things, and not serious enough about things that really matter.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[DoctorBill]

For God's Sake guys !

Lighten up a little.

"Humor - a strange concept" - Comment of a Vulcan crew member - Star Trek - Wrath of Khan.

"Nothing is more curious than the almost savage hostility that humor excites in those who lack it." ~George Saintsbury

Shrug.....

I bought two 'Bottles' of IMR Trail Boss powder today.

Strange looking stuff....

http://www.mynetimages.com/65da707ccb.jpg

That is a Graf 8mmx56R Steyr-Mannlicher case, by the way - and it took 20 grains
to fill it to the neck. I'll start with 15 grains as per the instructions from IMR.

Here is what it looks like close up - just FYI for those who haven't seen it.

http://www.mynetimages.com/68c3fddfb3.jpg

The VMD (Volume Measure Density) is 0.2172.
i.e. grains x VMD = vol in cc's.

I wonder how they bulk it up - lower the density, as it were ?
Has to be more than just the hole in the center....

I would love to be allowed to tour the IMR or Alliant manufacturing Facility and
watch them make these powders. 'Fascinating' as Mr. Spock would have said....

DoctorBill

[wills]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-2751.html

Didn't Ed Harris suggest 15 grains of Red Dot?

[Bert2368]

I have managed to intake noticeable doses of nitroglycerin (and ethylene glycol dinitrate- even worse) by handling blasting explosives, never by handling double base propellants. Just don't eat it or work in a powder blending facility without an appropriate mask. Reading the literature on the various other ingredients in modern powder will make you want to practice good hygiene as well. Don't succumb to the temptation to eat or drink at the reloading bench-

Trail Boss will keep you out of trouble, at least as far as double charges are concerned.

Wills, that would be 13 gr of Red Dot. In 30-06 with a 311332 I also like 14 gr of Green Dot-

[MtGun44]

13 gr Red Dot is the Harris load. Never tried it personally, need to.

Bill

[PAT303]

DoctorBill,you'll need to fly to Australia to see it made.In my 8x57 I load a full case under the Maximum boolit and it shoots as good as the operator can hold it.It is also very good with 10grns under a non gas checked boolit for a light gallery load.My swede will shoot right on an inch at 100 with 10-12 grains under a CBE 150grn boolit and the best thing I've found with it is it doesn't heat up the barrel shooting lots of it. Pat

[DoctorBill]

You are right, Pat - I never thought to look at the label as to where Trail Boss is made !

Isn't ANYTHING but political B*llSh*t made in America anymore ?

I loaded up 15 grains in 8 bullets (20 grain max fill) of my 8mm Steyr, but the weather is crud here right now, so can't try it.
Very strange looking "powder" !

Just acquired an 03-A3 Springfield 30-06 a few days ago.
One beautiful rifle !

I will post pics on ParallaxBill's site when I get off my dead butt and take
some photos.

DoctorBill

[PAT303]

Look on the bright side,if you do decide to see where TB is made I've got a spare bed and an area the size of Canada we can hunt Camels and donkeys 5mins up the road. Pat

[4570guy]

I know where you are coming from in wanting to minimize your powder footprint. I personally use 4 basic powders that cover the burn rate range: Bullseye for pistols, SR4759 for 99% of my cast bullet shooting, 3031 for the medium burn rates (I've tried a few cast loads with it in .303 - worked reasonably well - intend to try more) and 4350 as my "slow" powder. I've only used 4350 in hunting loads with J-word bullets.

I have tried filler with both 4759 and 3031. I found no advantage to using filler in 4759, but it did help the 3031 loads.

[jimb16]

Unique and 2400 are the only ones I use.

[DoctorBill]

Of ALL the people (I hate to say 'guys', but it is true) out there reloading,
what percent of them are making and reloading CAST BULLETS ?

I have just started E-Mailing an Alliant 'Expert' asking about the use of 2400
powder for Military Rifle loads. (thinking of C.E. Harris)

He acts like he never heard of such a thing.

I wonder if they give squat about us Cast Bullet folk ?

I told him about C.E. Harris' writing - "Cast Bullet Basics for Military Surplus Rifles" -
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/77457-cast-bullet-loads-military-rifles-article-c-e-harris.html
he said, "I am aware of CE Harris, but have not seen this article."

WHAT !?

He then said, "I have seen his article "The Load" which talks about cast bullets in rifle cartridges."
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

"...we have no idea how he conducted his testing, what type of equipment he used or how (or if) he
measured pressures. Therefore, we do not publish data that comes from outside sources because
we cannot positively vouch for its accuracy."

Which, of course, I would expect. I am not knocking Alliant, here.

What I don't understand - why do they not TRY his loads in their testing equipment to determine
pressures etc. since a BUTT LOAD of their powder is sold to us Cast Bullet Reloaders !?

Is this because we are in a vast minority ?

Am I wrong here ?

Do the powder manufacturers do the load testing or is that something they 'farm out' to outside testing
labs (i.e. they have to pay for it) ?
If so, I understand why they don't test Harris' loads - the bottom line....

DoctorBill

PS - We all know about the Harris web site - yes ?
http://www.frugalrifleman.com/

[chasw]

Dr Bill: For a lifetime supply of dacron, go to the Salvation Army or Goodwill store nearest to you and buy a cheap pillow. Be sure it is not filled with feathers or down. Dacron is very springy, while feathers compress easily and stay compressed until fluffed up again. When you get it home, cut a small hole in the cover and pull out a handful of nice clean dacron, aka polyester fiberfill.

Best way to use it is weigh out a tuft of about 1.5 grains and stuff it down into the case with a pencil or other suitable tool. Make sure its down against the powder charge, but not jammed into a tight wad. Since its so springy, you should have no trouble setting it so its fills the airspace from the powder to the base of the bullet. Better to have a little too much, than not enough.

Because its so fine, powder granules don't migrate into the filler. The net result is the equivalent of 100% load density, regardless of how big the case is. Upon firing, you can see the little fibers floating to the ground in front of your muzzle, they don't seem to melt from the heat of ignition. Good luck - CW

[DoctorBill]

I have to admit something....

I feel very STOOPID.

I am a chemist, but I was under the impression that Dacron was not polyester, but something
related to nylon with Nitrogenous groups in the fiber.

Not.

Dacron IS a polyester !

I had already visited a Fabrics store with my wife and went to the filler section for coats and such
and bought a 1/2 inch thick x 1yard x 1.5 yard polyester matting for $4.50.

I was prepared to toss it when someone said that Dacron is a polyester.

I went to Wikipedia and verified that I was under the wrong impression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacron

Long story short - I had it wrong in my memory.
Give me a break - I'm 68 and can't remember what I ate for breakfast....

So - go out and buy polyester matting at any fabric store for cheap.
Comes on a big roll and of varying thicknesses.

Very light but dense mat and inexpensive and easy to cut into squares for filling.

DoctorBill

[d43p]

Here's what I've used over the years...12 grs of Red Dot in mil surps with 150 gr lead and larger. Bores .41 to .45 rifles, blackpowder cartridges, I like 21 grs SR4759. Haven't had any problems so far.

[Triggerhappy]

Hey Doc,

Where abouts are you in WA? I'm on the West side of Idaho.

TH

[DoctorBill]

Triggerhappy -

I live about 27 miles south of Spokane in a small town.

I shoot at the Mica Gun Range.

My last shooting of 40 rounds has now left my right shoulder hurting
like Hell....

I hope this doesn't portend my not being able to shoot much more.

DoctorBill

[Tazman1602]

Doc,

I'm a spring chicken not an old guy like most of the people here (lol, 52...........) and I see no reason to beat up my right shoulder which has already had major surgery on it.

If I have to I'll use a doubled up towel, a rifle rest bag filled with kitty litter, or whatever I have to in order to not get pounded all day when shooting. Dang whatever the youngsters have to say about it. When I started shooting you were a "wimp" if you used ear protection with an '06 (REAL MEN used one on white tail....) or eye protection when grinding on the wheel.............first time a doc was digging around in my eye to get out that piece of steel I had in there I decided I WAS a wimp and didn't CARE............If I could afford a "Lead Sled" I'd probably have one.....

I *rarely* shoot full bore loads unless it's hunting season and I'm double checking zero on my rifles though.................but today is the day as hunting season is just around the corner!

Been reading your post with interest, lots of great information but don't worry about the brain burn. Just keep reloading and shooting and keep a good notebook (I'm an engineer so I'm anal about keeping notes....) and you'll do FINE.

Art


Triggerhappy -

My last shooting of 40 rounds has now left my right shoulder hurting
like Hell....

I hope this doesn't portend my not being able to shoot much more.

DoctorBill

[Andy_P]

I love trying various powders for load development, but have found that for cast bullet loads, I might as well just choose SR4759 and develop loads for it.

When I use ball powders, I always use a magnum primer and only use loads that are a full case or almost so. I often find them to produce the most accurate load, with BLC-(2) being my present favorite. Ball powders do not seem to work at all well with reduced loads - I have experienced too many hangfires to use it that way.

Trail Boss is great for use in cavernous cases and to develop subsonic loads, but it gives very low MV's and I have never found it to produce the most accurate load - accurate yes, but not the most accurate. It's "Idiot-Proof" benefits serve the careless folk well. I prefer to be careful and use something else.

Fast powders like Bullseye, Red Dot and the like ignite well, and are economical to use.

Unique works well in every cartridge and bullet weight, and is good in a lot of ways, but never seems to be the best in any one attribute.

[Johnny O.]

I know Unique and 2400 are used a lot because of the Ed Harris article of 1993. I have not tried them.
I find it odd that a fast burning powder would work well in a rifle.
A really fast increase in pressure, you would think, would be dangerous.

This is my theory. Sorry if someone has already said this, I didn’t see it as I hurried though all the pages… Of coerce you know that the softer the lead the slower it needs to go. You can down load with the slower burning rifle powder, but if you go too far trying to get that low velocity, There comes a point where you won’t get enough initial pressure to expand the case and get a good seal in the chamber. That’s where the faster shot gun/pistol powders come in. you are correct that there is a higher pressure spike but that is what you’re looking for to some extent. Enough presser to seal the case against the inside of the chamber (well under what the rifle can handle) and still get the low velocity you’re looking for, and there isn’t any powder still burning to increase the pressure and velocity while the bullet is travailing down the tube. I haven’t tried the trail boss yet but think i will. I want to fill the case more and keepem moving less than 1800fps.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I think one only needs to worry about SEE with medium to slow powders (usually ball powders) loaded at below 70% case capacity. This is the recipe that two different powder company ballisticians have warned me about. Never load less than 70% capacity of ball powder in a rifle case with a medium or slow (rifle) powder. (One company had a very exact percentage of, I think, 73% loading density...) If you're using a fast (pistol/shotgun) powder, ball or otherwise, and you're using the Ed Harris ultra-light loads, I think you're fine. There's not enough energy contained within such a powder load to cause an SEE type situation, regardless of loading density.

So, Doctor, back to your original question: Do you need to stock 15 different powders? Definitely not! Now, understand, I'm not loading as many calibers as it appears you are. I've just started with 30-06, but have plans on loading 7.7 Jap, 6.5 Arisaka, 6.5 Carcano, 7.92x57 Mauser, 303 British, and maybe the 7.5 Swiss with lead. I'm very confident I can do everything with three powders.

Pick a fast powder, such as Trail Boss, Unique, Red Dot, etc. (I'm using W231, because that's what I have, and in spite of it being a ball powder, it works great, even at 20% load density.) This fast powder will load your 25yd to 100yd practice and small game load. There are several recipes that are considered standard, such as 10.0grs of Unique, 13.0grs of Red Dot, etc. Just check for data here or another trusted source that someone has used and found to be good for the caliber you are loading. This type of load generally is going 1200fps or less.

For a medium powder, lots of folks use 2400 (mostly from Ed Harris' praise of it), but IMR4227, XMP5744, and several other "very slow pistol/shotgun" to "very very fast rifle" powders work well. I'm using AA#9 and 4227 to begin with, because, again, that's what I have. And, again, because it is such a light load, there is not enough potential energy in the AA#9 to risk SEE, even though it's a ball powder at far less than 70% load density. (The key to this is that with a faster powder, you use less, so you never get enough of it in there to get to the pressures required for SEE. However, this load level is as far as I would take that. For slower powders and higher velocities, you need to watch that 70% rule, and going 75% is much better. This is why the guys above are having such good success with the ultra-slow powders. They're loading 100% load density and certainly never get close to 75% with these slow powders, so they are not doing anything risky.) Loads here will be going 1500 to 1800 fps, generally.

You can also push cast boolits faster, and as stated by others who have already posted above, you do that with slow powders which build up pressures slowly. Nothing wrong with using a powder that is "too slow" for the application at hand, because it will produce a very gentle, low-pressure shove to the boolit. I can't add a thing to what the guys posted above, since I have no experience with it, other than passing on what I've gleaned from my searches on this subject. In fact, they taught me a bunch with their comments on the slow-burning ball powders!

I hope this is a good summary for you, so you don't get overwhelmed. It's hard, especially starting off, like we are. I've had to wade through a lot, but it was mostly fun. I've shot cast boolits in pistols for >30 years, but this rifle stuff is fairly new to me, so I know how you feel trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.

[azcruiser]

Doc try the Trail Boss your shoulder will love it . shoots soft little recoil no wads fillers and such.
can't double charge with it 13gr fills a 22-250 to the top of the case and 18 gr fills a7.62x54 R
I load 10.5 gr in my 6.5x55 swed 8x57 98 Mauser 308 WIN AND 762X54 R and bullet weight doesn't seem to matter ?

[Donor8x56r]

I'm a big fan of Red Dot.14 Gr of it +/- 0.5 Gr produces some very nice results in all my cast boolit loads.
That goes for all milsurps I have and few I don't.
Recoil is noticable but not punishing,no need for fillers,it's by far cheapest powder choice in my neck of the woods , that is until I get my hands on Alliant Promo.

The XMP 5744 was even better powder accuracy wise ,but i can,t get anywhere anymore and it was costly.Trail Boss is great except I cant feel any recoil at all-not fun at all.

Bottom line-Get 8lbs of Red Dot or Promo from Alliant and it will get you going for a long time.

[Andy_P]

I think one only needs to worry about SEE with medium to slow powders (usually ball powders) loaded at below 70% case capacity. This is the recipe that two different powder company ballisticians have warned me about. Never load less than 70% capacity of ball powder in a rifle case with a medium or slow (rifle) powder.............

.........I hope this is a good summary for you, so you don't get overwhelmed. It's hard, especially starting off, like we are. I've had to wade through a lot, but it was mostly fun. I've shot cast boolits in pistols for >30 years, but this rifle stuff is fairly new to me, so I know how you feel trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.

It is a good summary and this is a great thread. I have had to find these things out the hard way, but had fun doing it.

There are many good and inexpensive (efficient?) loads out there with fast powders like Red Dot, Unique and Trail Boss, but I have never found them to be the most accurate.

That seems to fall to full loads of much slower powders, but unless the powder was surplus, they are much more costly to shoot.

In between, I always come back to SR4759 which seems to be very accurate and only moderately expensive. Other report similar results with 2400 and 5744, but when I tried them a while back I did not see the same results as with SR4759, so just went with it.

[1Shirt]

While there are lots of good thoughts, good info, and good recommendations, think Charger has about summed it up for me! I am mostly satisfied with 1800 or less loadings and use mostly 2400 and some Unique. Lately have been using a fair amount of Trail Boss as well, and it is safe and fun at even lesser vols. If and when I am after loads much in excess of 1800 or so, am inclined to go to 4064 or 4895. Will go to even slower powders only if I have an over abundance of same (which is seldom), such as 4831 in 30-30.
1Shirt!:coffeecom