Any One Using Puff-lon

[HEAD0001]

I just bought a bottle of Puff-Lon. It was recommended to be. Has anyone had any experience with it? Any suggestions? Thanks, Tom.:castmine:

[Bret4207]

Very expensive magic beans from one report I heard. Let us know how it works for you please.

[35remington]

I've heard the same.

My problem is that I'm cheap, so I use a lot of dacron. Can't see that I'd try Puff-Lon anytime soon, but I would be interested in reports about its use as well.

[44man]

I got a sample bag. It worked OK with light loads but wasn't worth a darn with hot loads.

[35remington]

44, care to expand on that a little?

[The Double D]

Don't use Puff-lon in bottle necked cases it can and will slug up. It also stretches necks. I would reserve it for use in straight wall cases only.

Here is a copy of my response on the subject that was made in a thread called Filler: PSB, Cream of Wheat, or... made on 09/11/2006. Scroll down the list here on Cast bullets and you will find the discussion/



The Granular solids should not be used in bottle neck cases as fillers. Wouldn't think they would be much better in a tapered case either.

This is a Pufflon slug in a 577/450 Martini case that misfired (Smokeless load) Primer only fired, not the RL-7.

http://www.fototime.com/1B73A1294D43252/standard.jpg

This is that same case after spending 2 days in the case tumbler after I forgot to dig the Pufflon out before putting in the tumbler.

http://www.fototime.com/D2DB2475AB2E103/standard.jpg

And this is what I dug out.

http://www.fototime.com/4F827095639E500/standard.jpg

And this is what the cases look like after first time firing. (Last time too). Notice the pulled necks.

http://www.fototime.com/3294C502B57C8DF/standard.jpg

This is not the first time I seen this. Back in the days before digital photo's I saw this same thing using Cream of wheat.

Here is that same load when it misfired with kapok filler. The Kapok did not slug up.

http://www.fototime.com/7BC54851F480341/standard.jpg

That is how the case appeared when pulled from the chamber.

I feel very comfortable using kapok. You can get it on Ebay and the brown truck will deliver it with your Buffalo Arms and Graf and Sons order and the nieghbors will never know.


. You can also order it here:
• Kapok http://www.atrim.com/Page11.html

You could also use carded wool like the Brits did in the original Martini Cartridges.

[HEAD0001]

I was going to use it in a 45-70 cat sneeze load. That is what Buffalo Arms suggested for a filler. Over approximately 3.0 grains of Bullseye. I will cast a pure lead 300 grain bullet. I will also work the load down slightly if bullet does not lodge in barrel. Does any one have a better idea for a filler, Tom.:castmine:

[44man]

I put it in my .44 with a light load of Unique and the accuracy did not change. When I put in on my hunting load (reduced as recommended) groups got very large. This was the same boolit that gave me 4 in 1" at 100 yd's but with Puff-lon I would be lucky to get that at 25 yd's.

[The Double D]

I was going to use it in a 45-70 cat sneeze load. That is what Buffalo Arms suggested for a filler. Over approximately 3.0 grains of Bullseye. I will cast a pure lead 300 grain bullet. I will also work the load down slightly if bullet does not lodge in barrel. Does any one have a better idea for a filler, Tom.:castmine:

Yep! but not with Bullseye in a 45/70 case.

If you want to learn how fillers work you need to two books. The Modern Schuetzen Rifle by Charles Dell and Shooting British Double rifles by Graeme Wright.

Floral foam, compressed dacron and my personal favorite kapok all are good fillers.

[longhorn]

I've tried it in a variety of .458 concoctions without notable success-it did seem to reduce the incidence of hangfires with light 4198 loads, but accuracy was still abysmal (me?load?rifle? who knows) I have much better success with Grex and Dacron and I think the Dacron is easiest to handle. Also, isn't Puff-Lon cellulose (wood fiber) flakes dusted with moly? I've read so many varying opinions of moly that I'm a little leery of it-but open to the voices of experience.

[HEAD0001]

To DOUBLE D: I have had about a dozen people say to use Bulleye. You said not to. Would you please explain the problem with Bullseye? I am in no way trying to be argumentative, I am truly seeking information, so that I can try to get it right the first time, and from your posts I respect your opinion. Thanks, Tom. :castmine:

[44man]

Hey, head, where are you in West By God?

[HEAD0001]

I live out in the country between Morgantown and Fairmont.:castmine:

[44man]

A long way from me! I live near Harpers Ferry.

[The Double D]

To DOUBLE D: I have had about a dozen people say to use Bulleye. You said not to. Would you please explain the problem with Bullseye? I am in no way trying to be argumentative, I am truly seeking information, so that I can try to get it right the first time, and from your posts I respect your opinion. Thanks, Tom. :castmine:

Little tiny charge in a great big case, there is to much chance for an error.

There is the long long long running debate over detonation of Bullseye powder in light loads. The Naysayers always cite double charge as the cause.

With that big 45/70 case getting a double charge is all to easy.

And before you say "I'm real careful" I was standing next to to one of them most meticoulus relaoders I have ever known, when his S&W M-10 blew up. Did he have a double charge? We don't know. All we know was he was left with a three shot M-10 with no top strap, stinging hand, and ringing ears despite earmuffs.

You might ask those dozen people what reloading manual says that 3.0 grains of bullseye in a 45/70 case is safe load. That load didn't comeout of any lab!

Drop Alliant and email and ask them what they think about the practice. Here is there email address: alliant.reloading@atk.com

I can stand corrected, have before. But I believe that load came out of somebodies garage and not a ballistics lab.

[Oldfeller]

Isn't anyone going to tell these fine youngsters how to make puf-lon?

It's not like its hard or the real cost is more than pennies per ounce. They are actually spending real $$$ money buying the stuff because other boards are now recommending it as an explosion proof lead proofing high speed accuracy improving buffer compound (apparently they read the claims and tried it and found it so). After all, the stuff was invented on Shooters and discussed there extensively.

Or don't you remember how? (Aladin would be ashamed of you) --

Ask Starmetal Joe -- he would have told you .... there were some of us that acutally did experimental work back in the day, not that anyone would listen to the results back then, but it was fun and they did it for the fun of it.

I was a Puf-lon skeptic and set out to disprove it. All I will say is that it takes an extra reloading step and seems to mildly improve accuracy if you keep enough data to make that comparision. It WILL raise your velocity ceiling and a mildly compressed wad of it behind the bullet is perfectly safe to shoot. Thousands have done so, safely. My test vehicle for their claims was a 7mm Rem Mag, so don't be telling me you can't shoot it in a bottle necked case.

(if Puf-lon is placed on a shaken, settled nice FLAT charge of powder it makes a readily compressible flowable cake/wad with bore cleaning & lubricating properties. You want the powder to be even and flat as it makes the base of the cake/wad after bullet seating compression)

=======================

I got me this small problem I want to tell you about. This list has gotten so restrictive and PC proper that they have motivated some of our old members to leave (Jumptrap) and they have banned (yes, kicked off) some prolific old posters like Starmetal and they have pissed off some of the rest of the older members so we don't actively participate any more.

So, if you won't tell these new puppies how to make Puf-lon, what good are you anyway? Roll on with your life and find something else to do that is actually fun for you (go buy yourself a motorcycle, that worked for me).

I think I'll go ride mine some .....


Oldfeller

[HEAD0001]

Ya, is anybody going to tell us how to make it? Tom:castmine:

[dennis]

Dear Double D,
I am very sorry you had trouble with Puff-Lon, but the plug it was forming behind the bullet is what it is suppose to do. This is what holds the powder in place with its’ springy resistance and protects the base of the bullet. The plug would have pushed up to be a thin wad behind the bullet if your powder would have ignited. I know our product and I assume the plug that you got out was like a crumbly dry marshmallow. If you tried to pick it up with your hand it would have fallen apart. Also the kapok is a much heavier product and it looked like some of the powder granules where push up into the kapok and would not have burned.

Dr. Mr. 44man,
Your high power loads you might try using a slower burning powder like a rifle powder. Fillers make your powder burn faster and the higher-pressure can be distorting the base of the bullet giving poor accuracy.

If ya'll have any other questions please call 800 369-4518.
Dennis Kessler, Puff-Lon

[The Double D]

Dear Double D,
I am very sorry you had trouble with Puff-Lon, but the plug it was forming behind the bullet is what it is suppose to do. This is what holds the powder in place with its’ springy resistance and protects the base of the bullet. The plug would have pushed up to be a thin wad behind the bullet if your powder would have ignited. I know our product and I assume the plug that you got out was like a crumbly dry marshmallow. If you tried to pick it up with your hand it would have fallen apart. Also the kapok is a much heavier product and it looked like some of the powder granules where push up into the kapok and would not have burned.

If ya'll have any other questions please call 800 369-4518.
Dennis Kessler, Puff-Lon

Sorry Dennis but it was not crumbly like a dry marshmallow it was hard like a piece plaster and had to be dug out with a screw driver. The slug was hard.

This was a Nitro for Blackpowder load and the pufflon was in excess of 50% of case volume in a bottle neck case. The body of the case is 50 cal plus and the neck is 45. The Puff-lon was extruded into a solid lump in the neck simply by the force of the primer. The Pufflon still in the powder chamber of the case was loose.

The later test when the powder did ignite resulted in the radically stretched necks and the massive amounts of pufflon blow-by into the chamber making subsequent chambering difficult and a big clean up mess afterward. See the pictures.

I might add these results are similar to the results I got in the past from using cream of wheat.

For black powder loads in the Martini I only had to fill with Pufflon from the bottom of the neck to the start of the shoulder. I had to have a wax paper over powder wad to keep them separate. The Pufflon worked pretty good in that use. I don't use the Pufflon in my Black powder Martini loads any more because my loads now fill to the bottom of the neck.

Thanks but for my Nitro for Black loads in the Martini I'll stick to kapok.

You noted the powder "blown" into the kapok. Yes the primer was able to blow the compressed kapok with the unburned powder out of the case and partially down the barrel. Unlike the Pufflon slugs which still had pressure behind them 4 or 5 days later and went whoosh when the plugs were poked out with the screw driver. That does prove the Pufflon is sealing.

[Paul5388]

I sure don't see a need for kapok or Puf-lon when you can get filler for free.
Cattail silk is buoyant and water repellent as well as a good insulator. During World War II, the US Navy substituted cattail fiber floss for kapok in life vests, because, at the time, the Dutch East Indies was occupied by the Japanese, which had been the source for the buoyant kapok.For those wanting "cat sneeze" information, here (http://guns.connect.fi/gow/gunwriters.html) would be a good place to start. Ed Harris, creator of Ed's Red, is now the editor of the site. Way down on the site is a couple of articles by P. T. Kekkonen on "How To Handload Subsonic Rifle Cartridges (and survive)". :mrgreen:

Another site to look at for reduced loads would be here (http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm), but their loads only go down to about 800 fps with Bullseye. Use the side bar on the left hand side to scroll down to .45-70. I use Green Dot without a filler for a subsonic load with 405 gr cast, but it certainly isn't a cat sneeze.

[DonH]

Bullseye IS a safe powder to use. After 27+ years of bullseye competition with reduced loads myself and never seeing one by anyone else during that time I have no fear of the powder. However, COMMON SENSE RULES! My use has been in pistols but as to 3.0 gr in 45-70, a double charge would only be 6.0. to my notion, hardly a cause for worry. Before anyone lectures me, I AM careful.

[DonH]

Oops! should have said "never having had an incident, or seen one gy anyone else".

[Leftoverdj]

When someone is working with 3 grains of Bullseye behind a 300 grain cast bullet in a .45-70, the sky will not fall if a case gets double charged. It's still a safe load. A triple charge is still a safe load. A quadruple charge is a bit more than I would use on purpose, but even that would be most unlikely to damage a modern rifle.

I'm a bit old to put up with people who haven't tried it, haven't even checked with those who have, don't really know a lot about it, screaming "You're gonna put your eye out with that thing!"

[PerversPépère]

Would'nt Hodgdon's Trail Boss powder simplify things?
It's so fluffy, I think it wouldn't need any over-the-powder wadding even in big cases.
Did one of you try it?
PP.:confused:

[Paul5388]

DJ,

www.gmdr.com lists a 12.0 gr Bullseye load with a 405 gr cast bullet at 1141 fps, so even the quadruple load is safe with the heavier bullet! :mrgreen:
I'm a bit old to put up with people who haven't tried it, haven't even checked with those who have, don't really know a lot about it, screaming "You're gonna put your eye out with that thing!" ;-) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[The Double D]

The whole purpose of my test was to develop full power hunting loads substituting Nitro for Black powder in the 577/450 Martini case. These are not Target loads. A simple tuft of Dacron or a wad of toilet tissue would be fine on the target range but it would not be enough to hold the powder in that big Martini case while in the field hunting. This was also a good opportunity to test Puff-lon

I was working from information developed by Ross Seyfried, Sherman Bell and Graeme Wright for loading the big British cartridges.

The gentlemen did pressure gun work with original black powder ammunition to determine actual pressure values and velocity of that ammo. They then looked for specific modern powders to duplicate both the pressure and velocities of the loadings. They also tested the early bulk and cordite loading for the same values.

During their research they learned that one thing was common in both black powder and smokeless powder ammunition of the era. Neither type of ammunition had any airspace. All empty space was filled with wads. This true also in the Martini cartridge, cotton wool (carded wool) was used as a filler. This didn’t apply of course to the Cordite loads as they were long strands stuffed in the cases. Both Seyfried and Wright advocate following this practice by the use of wads, Dacron or foam, to remove as much air space as possible. Seyfried in fact advocates compressing much Dacron as you can get in the case.

As the result of the test that these Gentlemen did certain powders were identified that could be substituted in Nitro for black loadings. Two that were identified were IMR 4198 and RL-7. Specific ratios of smokeless for black were identified; 40% for IMR 4198 and 47% for RL-7. I know in the post above I say RL-15, but that is an error, the powder was RL-7.

Following the guide lines laid out for developing NfB load by Seyfried, Bell and Wright I looked for appropriate fillers. Puff-lon was new on the market and seemed a natural to test. I also had a quantity of kapok on hand. Since I had kapok, I didn’t feel a need to bother with Dacron.

My initial tests were made with solid head Kynoch case and resulted in the excessively stretched necks and Puff-lon blow by into the chamber and action of the rifle as you see in the pictures above.

I also wanted to test the 24 gauge CBC brass shotgun cases formed to 577/450. These cases are a semi balloon head case and use pistol primers only. These cases have a far greater capacity than the more expensive solid head rifle cases. At $0.16 for a CBC case versus $5 a case for a solid head I knew more people would be using them than the more expensive cases. Of course the
RL-7 misfired. The pistol primer would not fire off the RL 7 but had enough energy to put the bullet into the throat and slug up the Puff-lon

I have also had cream of wheat slug up like that in the Martini. What do you expect trying to force a .500 diameter column of a powdered solid through a .450 diameter hole…isn’t that called swaging or extruding?

Wright's work was done in conjunction with Kynoch Ammunition and the Birmingham Proof house. Kynoch new ammunition is loaded with foam wads eliminating air space. You can read more about Wrights work in his book Loading for the British Double rifle.

[1putt]

I have used Trail Boss,in my 45/70 Contender G2,and got one hole groups at 25 yds.using 5 grs.

[Char-Gar]

Not all graular solids are the same. The organic ones can absorb moisture and form a plug as in the photos and post above. There have been numberous organic solids tried over the years such as cream of wheat, oatmeal, coffee, cotton and so on. They all all formed these hard plugs from time to time and could be scary in bottle neck cases. Puf-lon is organic. I am working on old memory but IIRC it can be made cheaply from bran and molydi-sulfide in a blender.

I recalled the old discussions as mentioned by Oldfeller, but have always been happy with Super Grex and later PSB shotshell buffer, so I never made any Puf-lon. These shotshell buffers being non-organic do not take on moisture and form hard plugs. They do eliminate the air space making for a good tight powder column giving good ignition and a uniform burn. They are quite small and there is the possibility for the PSB to filter down into the powder column if the powder is the large stick variety. I only use it with ball powder in general and very slow ball powder like WC872 to form a lightly compressed powder column. In such a use PSB does help accuracy, reduce leading and is an overall good thing. It does blow out as a small white cloud. More than once I have had other shooters ask me if I was shooting black powder in my 30-06.

Grex/PSB was never popular with the old crowd, primarily because you had to buy it and it was expensive comparied to quilt/pillow dacron and dryer lint. In the old days, it was considered something of a disgrace if you bought something you could make from junk, refuse or odds and ends.

Good to see Oldfeller back, but looks like his crankyness has only grown worse over the past couple of years of his self imposed exile. He never has been a warm fuzzy chap, but very knowledable non-the-less. Is also sad, but true this board has lost many of the original planks and their knowledge with them. The general knowledge level of this board has decreased and not increased over the past few years as a result.

[fredw1324]

Folks,
I have ordered a 577 2 1/2 on the way fromm a gunsmith who has built many of these. Mine is a remington 1889 hammer gun in 10 ga with rifled steel liners. It is chambered and regulated using the 28 gauge shotgun shells. The load for black starts at 53 grains.

[Muzzlehatch]

So far I've shot 40 rounds of 577-450 Martini using Puff-Lon over 34-32 grs. of IMR4198 and 405-512 gr. bullets with no problems.

[Scharfschuetze]

Yes, it is a bit pricey, but after scrounging lead, tin and then spending the time casting; it is, for me at least, worth the effort to maximize my loads' accuracy. I've tried various fillers and so far Puf-Lon and Dacron produce the best results for me.

I ordered a container of Puf-Lon a few months ago, primarily for plain base boolits and I've had good results with it, both with accuracy in bottle neck cartridges and in the ballistic uniformity of the loads that I've used it in. I posted the ballistic results in another thread last month so I won't revisit that, but here are the results from today's trip to the range.

The load was the Lyman 314299 boolit sized to .313 with gas check, NRA 50/50 Alox lube; SR 4759 powder, CCI primers; Privi Partisan cases and of course Puf-Lon filler. This was not a fluke as the load does this day in and day out and produces 10 shot groups like this that are at least 30% to 50% tighter than non filler loads. Yes, Dacron also works in a similar manner and is a bit easier to use, so flip a coin. I'll certainly continue to use the Puf-Lon for my rifles that are accurate enough to make good use of it.

Average velocity for 10 shots was 1,798 fps with an extreme spread of 13.3.

I ended up shooting the remaining 20 rounds today off hand at the 200 yard gong with good success when I read the wind (gusting from 3 O'Clock) properly.

After reading this thread, I ran out and took this shot while I still had some sun left to illuminate the target and 1891 Mauser.

[Ricochet]

That sure is a pretty rifle, Scharf. I love the old soldiers. What was the range on that impressive 10 shot group?

[Scharfschuetze]

Hey Ricochet,

I do too and I shoot them more than any other rifle type. The 1891 really has the fun factor built into it.

The range was 50 yards, but the loads hold well out past 200 yards so far. Next summer I'll wring it out at extended range on my annual road trip to the high deserts in Arizona, Colorado and Wyoming. I'm looking forward to some prairie dog shooting with it.

By the way, for hunting ammo a filler really helps where shots can come at any angle so almost all of my cast boolit hunting ammo will use a filler to uniform the velocities between the up and down angle shots.

[Ricochet]

I've gone back to using the polyester fiberfill a lot. Velocities are a lot more uniform, groups are better, and I've always had a bit of concern in the back of my mind about "SEE" with some of the loads I use. That's some mighty good shooting with the 1891!

[CHeatermk3]

That's some mighty good shooting with the 1891!

Amen to that!

I'm trying to get A2230 to shoot in my mosin using dacron batting for fill. About 1 grain pushed into the case keeps the powder in place but still leaves lots of airspace...Should I be using more, like enough to completely fill the case and be slightly compressed by the boolit?

[longbow]

So far I have found that filler has improved accuracy in my .303's. I am not getting groups as nice as Scarfschuetze but have noticed steady improvement as I am developing loads.

The main reasons I decided to try filler were:

- Powder availability and selection is very poor where I live so I wanted to try filler with slower powders and reduced loads
- loading density is always 100% so no chance of double charging

I read David Southall's article on fillers in .303's here:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

Which convinced me that it was a safe practice. That and a bunch of other research including many posts here on using fillers in 6.5x55.

I also contacted David and he was very informative. so I proceeded with using COW filler with good success and no problems whatsoever. I worked all loads up from very light with filler to a moderate level. Mostly I wound up with loading manual mid range charges for castboolits but with filler and no signs of flattened primers, sticky extraction, stretched case necks and all those other bad things that are supposed to happen using granular fillers.

I also loaded up several rounds using COW which did compress into a "plug" at loading (fairly solid plug if a boolit was pulled shortly after loading). I took some of these rounds and put them into a Zip-Loc bag which I left open then placed on its side under a tree in my back yard for 10 months from late fall through wet, rainy, snowy winter, spring summer then 10 months later I pulle dboolits from both the rounds stored indoors and those stored outdoors to see if the COW had in fact absorbed moisture and become a solid hard plug. Nope! There was no noticeable difference in the COW whether stored outside and exposed to the weather and those stored inside a warm basement. No difference in shooting performance either.

So, I have no fear of "plugs" or problems at least in .303 British using organic granular fillers. I have no tried Puff-Lon but plan to at some point.

Of course using a fairly solid filler will raise pressures ~ air space is eliminated and some mass has to ejecta weight but what is the problem with increased pressure as long as it is within safe limits. Do I care if my mid range load runs at pressures similar to higher velocity "J" bullet loads? No.

Increased pressure within safe limits is nothing to worry about and can be a good thing with slower powders to help combustion with light loads.

Most of the powders I use fill half the cartridge volume or more so double charging isn't a real worry most of the time but I have also used COW over quite light charges of Unique where something like 2/3's of the cartridge volume is filler. Again no problems and better accuracy than without filler and insurance against double charging.

I know "careful" reloaders always check to make sure but are they absolutely positive, peering down into a big bottleneck case with a flashlight? Whenever a gun blows up the first comment seems to be "I didn't double charge." If there is room for a double charge then I say "Prove it". 100% loading density solves that.

I have to agree with Dennis' comments and that the filler is supposed to compress and seal and will pack some or "swage" into the bore. Isn't that what a boolit or bullet does? Isn't lead or especially copper jackets lead denser and harder than a filler?

If you do not like fillers and don't want to use them that's fine. I like them and will continue to use them.

Just my opinion and experience. Take it for what it is worth.

Longbow

[Scharfschuetze]

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but that mention of Cream of Wheat filler brings back a few memories. When my son was still only five or six and had to "help" dad with EVERYTHING, I would charge a block of 50 or so cases with powder and then set the measure up for him to throw the proper amount of COW so that it was slightly compressed when seating the boolit. As it was white, we could follow the progress well and fill all the cases and then he could seat the boolits. The sense of accomplishment for my son was just wonderful to see and even though he really wasn't loading powder, he thought he was and that enhanced our shooting excursions all the more.