Pistol Brass variance

[Frank]

What kind of weight variance are you getting with your brass? I compared weight variance between Starline and Hornady 475 brass, weighed 10 cases each and came up with 4 grns difference for the Starline and only 1.3 for Hornady. I think this is affecting my groups, so I might go into sorting by weight like the rifle shooters.

[44MAG#1]

I once ransom rested my 44 Mag FA with 10 rounds of ammo loaded in mixed brass loaded with some old Hornady 240 JHP and 25 gr H110 and all ten went into a ragged hole at 50 yards that measured 1.1 inches center to center as near as I could measure.
Another guy at the range has checked 45 ACP loads with a good accuracy load put up in mixed brass and selected brass and could detect no difference in mixing brass.
After this I don't care if it is mixed or not.
Other thing have gotten me away from worrying about mixed brass.
Other things are more important such as practicing shooting from various positions and ranges
Can you really shoot that good? Just asking please don't take offense to the question. Something to think about.
Although it is simple to keep brass seperate though.

[44MAG#1]

Let me explain my question about your shooting so you won't get mad.
I have a buddy that is a tool and die maker. Very picky like he should be in that business.
He has a Ruger SRH in 454 and a Redhawk in 45 Colt. They are both at a custom gunsmith now as i peck this for sloppy fitting remedies.
He complains about the poor accuracy of the guns etc. when he can't hit a bull in the behind to begin with.
I have shot both guns and they shoot very well even with a heavy SA pull on the 4 inch 45 Colt RH
My buddy will miss a LARGE piece of paper at 12 yards at least a couple rounds out of six with both guns even using loads that are around 800 to 900 fps with a 265 gr bullet.
So you see there are people like that out there.
They worry about things that are low priority instead of the high priority things.

[Frank]

My only thought is if he is getting the same results with mixed brass, then he isn't shooting that well to begin with. No offense, but sometimes you have to start off with everythng right, i.e. one hole group, then when it opens up I check for things. And one thing I found was a variation. But if your gun isn't shooting 1/2" groups or capable at 50 yds, if it's bigger, like 1 1/2-2", then you're right, you won't see brass effects. By the way, I'm talking about a benched revolver. Take the nut out of the equation. [smilie=l:

[9.3X62AL]

Take the nut out of the equation. [smilie=l:

Can't do that--I'd never get a shot fired.

[44MAG#1]

"My only thought is if he is getting the same results with mixed brass, then he isn't shooting that well to begin with."

A ransom rest shoots well. so it can't be the guy.

" No offense, but sometimes you have to start off with everythng right, i.e. one hole group, then when it opens up I check for things. "

Good going. Always check if things seen cock-eyed.

"But if your gun isn't shooting 1/2" groups or capable at 50 yds, if it's bigger, like 1 1/2-2", then you're right, you won't see brass effects."

You MAY be right but can YOU tell the difference in field shooting with a .5 Inch load and the 1.5 inch load ? Come on now.

"By the way, I'm talking about a benched revolver."

I have yet to see a hunter with a benchrest and sandbags in the field.
You want variances? What about differences in powder lots? What about differences in primer lots? What about differences in temerature? What about the day when you are not doing your best shooting? What about when the lighting conditions are not the best? See there are so many variables that mixed brass will actually be minute.
Why don't we see targets posted of these super groups shot in field conditions? It is always the benched groups that are super small as we all shoot at odd times but pics of the offhand groups evade us.
Something to ponder.
Sometimes the bolt needs the nut and a lock washer too.

[Doc Highwall]

Just because they are shooting mixed brass does not mean that the weight variation is large. What I learned a long time ago about case weight and how it relates to water capacity that affects velocity. Brass has a density of 8.44 in relation to water with a density of 1. Now 1 divided by 8.44 = .11848 that can be rounded to 12% if you want. Now say you have a load for a gun and the cases are on their last reload and you want to duplicate it with a new lot of cases that weight 5.5 grains less, multiply 5.5 times .11848 = .651 grains, this is how much you have to increase your powder charge to duplicate the old load. What this tells us is that for if you have a difference of 5.5 grains between your lightest and heaviest case in your lot will be the equivalent of a .65 grain of your powder charge. Again have all your cases weigh exactly the same and vary the powder charge by .65 grains and your velocity will be all over the place, and this will be even worse with smaller capacity cases like 223 and smaller.

[missionary5155]

Howdy Frank
It maybe was an oversight in the text but were all the brass the same length ?
Your question got me wondering how much .001 of brass actualy weighs ?
I have an old split 44-40 case and I think I will do a little case weighing and length changing.

[Frank]

Now Doc's got an interesting idea. I'm going to try it out.

Missionary, case length doesn't affect much. We're talking about a 150 grn case to begin with. But trimming them to length couldn't hurt.

44MAG#1,
Who's talking about hunting or a field shot? I'm talking about precision reloading and shooting handguns.

[44MAG#1]

"44MAG#1,
Who's talking about hunting or a field shot? I'm talking about precision reloading and shooting handguns. \

To me the "rubber meets the road" in actually shooting a handgun in field shooting situations. Benchrest is fine also Ransom Rest shooting is fine too.
But one should ask the question: What can I really do with a handgun using it as a field firearm.
Can I shoot a .5 inch group when shooting off sticks, off the side of a tree, off the side of my leg, offhand, kneeling or prone?
In these situations can I really tell the difference if I am using Winchester brass or Remington brass Federal or Starline or a combination of all thrown in.
Am I really that good or am I thinking I am that good.
Sure some shoots a handgun as their Benchrest firearm and that is good. Trying to squeeze out the last drop of accuracy is no different than a Benchrest rifle shooter with a 5000 dollar benchgun and scope.
Ever wonder what those guys can do with their 750 dollar M700 without a bench? I do but that has always been me just curious.
To others the "rubber meets the road" differently.
Thats what makes it fun.

[Frank]

44MAG#1,
We all agree that offhand shooting is important. But you need to keep checking your load, because things can throw it off. I agree with you entirely on the need to get away from the bench. A 1/2" load does much better offhand than a 2" load. I did a thread where I shot offhand with a 1/2" load. Some complained about my target having too much tape. They said my group was "BS". But it wasn't. And that's why I am addicted to my load. An excellent load makes up for erratic offhand shooting. But the best offhand shooting can't overcome a lousy load.

Your example of the benchrest rifle: The benchrest rifle is king. All he had to do is pick it up, put the crosshairs on a rock and squeeze. For him the rubber will meet the road.

[44MAG#1]

"An excellent load makes up for bad offhand shooting. But the best offhand shooting can't overcome a lousy load."

There is a lot of difference between an excellet and a lousy load. I am not talking about a load that won't stay in a wash tub at 50.
As far as field shooting I'll say this if you are good enough to tell the difference between a half incher and a one and quarter incher or a one and a quarter incher and a one three quarter incher you need to have your own TV show. Not meaning to pick on you but you must be a fantastic handgun shot. I have seen NRA master class bullseye shooters that are not that good. And that ain't hay.
Seriously I am standing in awe of anyone that is that good.
I guess I was standing behind the door with many, many others when shooting talent was handed out.
Where are you located? If not far from me I would really like to come and watch you shoot. Not from the bench though.

Have a good nite and take care.

[Frank]

44MAG#1 "As far as field shooting I'll say this if you are good enough to tell the difference between a half incher and a one and quarter incher or a one and a quarter incher and a one three quarter incher you need to have your own TV show. Not meaning to pick on you but you must be a fantastic handgun shot. I have seen NRA master class bullseye shooters that are not that good. And that ain't hay."

I didn't know how good that was, or didn't care. What I'm saying is, there is a difference between a 1/2" load, and a 1 1/2"-2" load when you take it to the field. When I shoot at a target at 100 yds from a field position with the .475 Linebaugh, I can group it regularly if I have a 1/2" load off the bench at 50 yds. But if that load opens up to 1 1/2"-2"off the bench, the shots are all over at 100 yds. Add offhand wobble and forget. it. It's a waste of lead.

[44man]

You have to shake like me off hand! :holysheep
I never found brass weight in the revolver to mean much and never weigh or prepare brass in any way except to trim and de-burr new brass.
I shoot very small groups from bags or Creedmore and do decent from off my knees but I can't do it all the time either. Some days are still some days and I will be the last to claim anything "on demand." I go by averages for many, many shooting sessions.
Once a load or boolit works, I quit and just shoot, never to look at it again. Same load, same boolit forever. I always figure a miss is me.
There are those days when I shoot at a target and go down to have my mouth drop open with boolits in almost one hole. Next day I can't! I would rather shoot cans and deer.
A friend brought over a Taurus 1911 for a trigger job. I said he was nuts, I just lubed it. Think about it and the gun goes off. He gave me Wolf ammo to shoot. I went down and the first shot with a clean bore at 25 yards was in the upper bull. My next 5 went into one ragged hole at the aim point. The darn thing was twisting my wrist from the bag so I tightened my hold and the next shots hit a little lower into a 1" group. Just that little change was enough.
I am impressed to no end with the gun, it is TIGHT. He paid $400.
The lesson here is that I learned what the gun is capable of and that is good enough for me. It also showed my failings when shooting it.
No more needs done except to shoot it and have fun.
Too many times the little things are just that---LITTLE THINGS that mean nothing.
I only believe in two things with the revolver, even case tension from case to case and boolit guidance in the forcing cone and bore without deformation. I could care less what brass or boolits weigh, I am EASY, EASY and LAZY! [smilie=l: Besides that, I am an old coot!

[Frank]

44man "I only believe in two things with the revolver, even case tension from case to case and boolit guidance in the forcing cone and bore without deformation. "

That's the thing. Case tension varied greatly on seating. But why waste a good round when the culprit can be identified early and rectified with weighing or adjusting powder levels? That's easier to me.

[44MAG#1]

"When I shoot at a target at 100 yds from a field position with the .475 Linebaugh, I can group it regularly if I have a 1/2" load off the bench at 50 yds. But if that load opens up to 1 1/2"-2"off the bench, the shots are all over at 100 yds. Add offhand wobble and forget. it. It's a waste of lead.

Lets see now.
If with the 50 yard .5 inch load the accuracy continues it means that it is a 1 inch load at 100.
Now lets say you can hold a 4 inch group shooting prone at 100 with it that means you have a 3 inch wobble area.
So far we agree on that right?
Yes we agree.
Now if we take the 2 inch load at fifty and it holds it accuracy at 100 yards the group will be 4 inches right?
Now add that 3 inch wobble and you have a 7 inch group shooting prone.
That is not lead all over the place. If your 2 inch group at 50 is turning into a group that is "all over the place" than you or the load is not fuctioning correctly. The load may need to be tweeked at 100 to get it into compliance. Or you need to look at your shooting technique.
I had that happen to a 45/70 load one time. It shot great at 100 but at 200 it looked like the target was shot with 00 buck at 30 yards. The regular load I use with the Marlin will hold palm sized groups at 200 but will not shoot as well at 100 as the load that went "all over the place" at 200.
Long distance rifle shooters have known of this for years. It can happen.
If you think a 7 inch group on a regular basis is bad you have been misled by the ones that shoot many many groups get a sloppy pooled group that fell into a miraculously small group, which happens at times, and then carries it around showing what they can do with their hogleg.
There is some at every range and on every job.
Rifle shooters are the same.

[Bass Ackward]

What I'm saying is, there is a difference between a 1/2" load, and a 1 1/2"-2" load when you take it to the field. When I shoot at a target at 100 yds from a field position with the .475 Linebaugh, I can group it regularly if I have a 1/2" load off the bench at 50 yds. But if that load opens up to 1 1/2"-2"off the bench, the shots are all over at 100 yds. Add offhand wobble and forget. it. It's a waste of lead.


I think that you need another perspective.

I have some loads that shoot 1/2" @ 50 that won't touch paper at 100. So it can go the other way on you too.

What you are seeing is marginal stability from the bullet design you are using as groups are not linear unless it is launched perfectly. And I don't care how many other people it works 7 days a week out to 12,000 yards.

For you, it simply doesn't fly well unless everything is perfect. And as a result, you are forced to search for those perfect bullets, cases, weather, temperature ..... perfection.

So you have one hell of a flexible 50 yard bullet. If you want a 100 yard bullet with a wider accuracy window, try something else.

You always want to work up your loads for the range of interest and let the close range accuracy be what it is. Saves time and wasted components.

[Frank]

44mag "Now if we take the 2 inch load at fifty and it holds it accuracy at 100 yards the group will be 4 inches right?"

Nope. Reason here.

Bass Ackward "What you are seeing is marginal stability from the bullet design you are using as groups are not linear unless it is launched perfectly. And I don't care how many other people it works 7 days a week out to 12,000 yards.

For you, it simply doesn't fly well unless everything is perfect. And as a result, you are forced to search for those perfect bullets, cases, weather, temperature ..... perfection.

So you have one hell of a flexible 50 yard bullet. If you want a 100 yard bullet with a wider accuracy window, try something else."

Thanks, Bass. [smilie=1:

[44MAG#1]

"44mag "Now if we take the 2 inch load at fifty and it holds it accuracy at 100 yards the group will be 4 inches right?"

Nope. Reason here. "

I just said the same thing in my post as Bass said although not as eloquently.
Go back and read what I said about the 45/70 load.

"If a 2 inch load at 50 goes all to pieces at 100 then something somewhere is wrong.
That is not lead all over the place. If your 2 inch group at 50 is turning into a group that is "all over the place" than you or the load is not fuctioning correctly. The load may need to be tweeked at 100 to get it into compliance. "

I just copied and pasted my very words above.

[Frank]

44MAG#1 "I just said the same thing in my post as Bass said although not as eloquently.
Go back and read what I said about the 45/70 load.

"If a 2 inch load at 50 goes all to pieces at 100 then something somewhere is wrong.
That is not lead all over the place. If your 2 inch group at 50 is turning into a group that is "all over the place" than you or the load is not fuctioning correctly. The load may need to be tweeked at 100 to get it into compliance. "

I just copied and pasted my very words above. "

Glad we're all on the same page now. :-)

[wiljen]

I suspect that 4gr difference in pistol cases is not enough to ever be visible when considering my own shooting prowess. I used to weigh trimmed 308 cases and use only those that were within 1gr +/- as it does make a difference at 600 yards when shooting NM. That being said, the difference in weight may or may not have much impact as it depends on where the difference is. A slight difference in rim thickness or diameter will change the case weight and have absolutely no impact on powder capacity. A change in web thickness does effect the boiler room so would cause changes visible over the chrono.

[Frank]

I don't know, Wiljen. Look at 44man with his tool that measures seating pressure. On the 2 cases, 153.8 & 157.8 grns, I noticed the heavier one had a thicker side of .0138 vs .0130, and had a water variance of .4 grns. And these 2 were just the highest and lowest from 10 cases. selected at random. The largest spread I got from the Hornady was 1.5 grns case weight from 10 pulled. And yes, off the bench, there's a big difference in accuracy between the 2 brands with the heavier loads. But why?

Case tension: I noticed with the Starline big "feel" variances with bullet seating with lighter bullets I was experimenting with, but the Starline shot great. (See below). That load was with HS6. So something is happening.

Perhaps the weight variance impacts neck wall thicknesses, and seating effects, but a fast powder like HS-6 overcomes that effect, while a slower powder like H110/W296 is more sensitive to varying seating pressure. Volume effect on powder charge is thus negligible.

Starline 50-yds
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2783

[44man]

I feel neck tension is controlled more by the original anneal and the brass structure.
If you want to shoot tight groups just weed out any brass that puts shots out of the group. Just like BR shooters do.
Frank is correct in that a faster powder needs less uniformity.

[felix]

Without doubt. ... felix