Remington

[odis]

Has anybody seen this. Oh it didn't work, Trying to upload a file from CNBC about a problem with the rem 700 going off without the trigger being pulled.

[montana_charlie]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1322551/Deaths-linked-alleged-Remington-Model-700-rifle-defects.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
...or...
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/2010-10-20-remington-700-trigger-cnbc_N.htm

[lwknight]

Its true and its not rare. My BIL flipped his safety off to open the bolt and his rifle fired.
Thats why there are a lot of discharges when the gun is to be unloaded.

You can buy a replacement kit for around $100.00 and IMO worth every penny for added safety.

[.357]

Its true and its not rare. My BIL flipped his safety off to open the bolt and his rifle fired.
Thats why there are a lot of discharges when the gun is to be unloaded.

You can buy a replacement kit for around $100.00 and IMO worth every penny for added safety.


I would think that if the gun discharges without me touching the trigger then Remington needs to send me the replacement kit free of charge.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Has everyone forgotten about the panic there was about this same problem with Rem M 700 triggers about a dozen years back? Seems the problem was dirt in the trigger group and was aggrivated by copious amounts of lubricants holding it in place. I believe there was a recall of some sort to have a dealer/gunsmith examine your rifle for free done.Robert

[500bfrman]

Its true and its not rare. My BIL flipped his safety off to open the bolt and his rifle fired.
Thats why there are a lot of discharges when the gun is to be unloaded.

You can buy a replacement kit for around $100.00 and IMO worth every penny for added safety.

was this gun modified at all? it's not rare. got any stats on that?

[looseprojectile]

This Barbara Barber pointed her rifle at her son and proceeded to unload it.
She needs to go to prison.
A very poor example to use for the prosecution.
A loaded rifle represents quite a lot of responsibility.
Seems a lot of people are trying to find someone else to blame for their mistakes.

Life is good

[bullshot]

I saw the report on the news last night. Said to the wife whatever happened to "always point the gun in a safe direction" I agree with looseprojectile, blame the object for one's negligence.

[firefly1957]

Is this not the same problem claimed against the XP-100 and model 600 RIFLE BACK IN THE 80'S? Safe gun handling has a lot to do with this also do not point a gun at anything you do not want do destroy. I would suspect as Remington claims dirt, abuse ,alteration is the biggest causes of this and years ago I started checking my guns while unloaded by pulling trigger then flipping off safety never had a click happen once.
Another suspicion is the obummer crowd is getting ready to attack all our guns and knows the lawmakers can't do it and he is supposed to be a lawyer so the courts would be his battle ground of choice.

[buck1]

BASIC SAFTY.
Rule #1 NEVER POINT A GUN AT SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.
Rule #2 Any gun with a closed action is loaded.

Poorly trained people often blame the gun when they fail to be safe with one and do some terriable thing.
Heck I am still trying to figure out how some folks "clean" a loaded gun.
I think it just sounds better than "I was being unsafe with a gun and shot so in so".

[9.3X62AL]

I saw this CNBC expose' last night, and given its sourcing (MSM) I do NOT trust its objectivity or content. Any similar occurence with 700-series Remington rifles is outside my experience, and I've owned a bevy of them.

As others point out, a firearm's mechanical safety devices are NOT to be relied upon as a sole source of fire control & direction. Its operator MUST control its direction, and ASSUME that it is able to fire AT ALL TIMES until its status as unloaded/empty is VERIFIED, and its action placed in a condition that disables the firearm's ability to function. I am very sorry to learn of the young boy's death, but blaming the rifle for his injury is like blaming dessert spoons for being overweight. The excreble add-on safeties applied to lever rifles for the past couple decades and now to S&W revolvers are NOT a safety improvement, in the truest sense of the concept--just make-work bullsquat attached to give liability lawyers on all sides of the question the feeling of having "done something" about The Problem. What folly.

[Houndog]

This is the same old tired BS the ambulance chasers and anti gunners trot out every few years. Remington did have a problem with some very early split sear-locking bolt triggers. They recalled them and replaced the trigger group. The new triggers are VERY reliable and safe in their factory supplied form. The trouble comes when some tinkerer "adjusts" the trigger that doesn't know what they are doing. When you decrease the sear engagement and back off the trigger return spring for that hair trigger almost everyone wants, they become unreliable. In my 45 years of shooting and gunsmithing the Remingtons, I've not had one that would fire with only pushing the safety off. Mike Walker, the man that designed the 700, taught me how to adjust a 700 trigger many years ago and I follow his directions without fail.

[Frozone]

There was a definite AntiGun bias in the article. But the problem is real and needed to be addressed. They interviewed the triggers designer (92 years old), I missed most of what he had to say but even He said the triggers have problems.

It's a classic case of management making a decision of money over safety. The space shuttle had the same problem. The entire mess could have been fixed a year or two after the gun was put into production. Instead the improvement was ignored and we are now 60+ years later.

The deaths/injuries are tragic, but don't just dismiss them as bad gun handling; even if that is the root cause. They were the result of not knowing/ caring where the gun was pointed while working on it.

One thing that was interesting was when a 'militrary sniper' showed how to make the 700 fire by just closing the bolt. I think it was rigged.

[runfiverun]

the problem with the walker trigger has been known since it's incepption.
mike even tried to get a change done at the time.
the 700, 788, xp-100,40-x and some others all us this trigger.
it still boils down to muzzle control.

[deltaenterprizes]

I saw the report on the news last night. Said to the wife whatever happened to "always point the gun in a safe direction" I agree with looseprojectile, blame the object for one's negligence.

I have the same opinion!

[Bullshop]

Would anyone here load a gun then put the safety on then put the muzzle to your head and pull the trigger? Of course not! Why? Because we have enough experiance to know that safeties can fail for many reasons.
One problem is that many folks that handle guns are far less experienced and are ignorant to that fact. The problem for them is that the name of the devise is deceiving. If it were called a sometimes safe or a slightly less dangerous, or maybe a take your chances catch or something to clearly indicate that they are far less than 100% dependable would they maybe get the idea?
As others have said the real issue is muzzle control. I remember at age 9 when I was able to take my test for my small game permit I studied the 10 commandments of gun safety until I was reciting them in my sleep. If all would obey those ten commandments there would be no such accidents.

[uncle joe]

I thought I was told once that you could send your rifle back to remington and they would fix the safety so you did not have to put the safety in the fire position to unload the gun. Anyone here heard the same?
PS I agree with the above posts, I can't stand to see someone point a gun at someone. I hate it when folks hold a gun muzzle down and rest it on their foot, a man either made all the parts of the gun or ran the equipment that made it and as such it is subject to failure.

[steg]

+1 with Buck1

[Houndog]

I thought I was told once that you could send your rifle back to remington and they would fix the safety so you did not have to put the safety in the fire position to unload the gun. Anyone here heard the same?
PS I agree with the above posts, I can't stand to see someone point a gun at someone. I hate it when folks hold a gun muzzle down and rest it on their foot, a man either made all the parts of the gun or ran the equipment that made it and as such it is subject to failure.

The locked bolt safety was part of a recall, but I don't know if they still honor it. In my mind I'd think they would be glad to get another one off the street. I'm sure a call to Remington with the weapon's serial number would get an answer FAST.

There are several first class aftermarket triggers for the 700. A few of them are: Rifle Basix, Hart, Shelen, Timney, and Jewell.

[krag35]

I have and have had several Remington 700's. The only time I have had that happen is after I messed with the trigger.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

First I ever heard of it!

I bought my only 700 in 1999, just went and tried it . . . works the way it should . . . safety on, open bolt . . .

I do agree with Bullshop, maybe it needs another / different name . . . I've heard people also say, but . . . I put it in park, or the parking brake was set . . . maybe so . . . but it ain't a perfect world, we should be responsible for our action, or lack thereof . . .

[smilie=s:

[Frozone]

You know I sold a 7mm Mag BDL in '97 just because of the bolt open with the safety on thing. I had the bolt come open a 'slight' amount and missed a great shot at a trophy elk. The gun will attempt to fire out of battery, I prefer the old style.

[lwknight]

was this gun modified at all? it's not rare. got any stats on that?

Nope! and since I don't own a 700 I'm not going to do other peoples research! So much for your challenge.

The BILs' 700 that went off when he flipped the safety off was clean and had never been modified.

You got the heads up on it. I don't have a dog in this fight. Research it if you want or just call it BS if you want . I don't care personally.

[hiram]

The show said that the designer, Mike Walker, had a fix at the cost of 5 1/2 cents per rifle years back, but that was too much for Remington. Today the fix/recall would cost more than Remington is worth. The designer is 98 and still shoots. He advised Reminton to make a change several times. It is in writing. After he retired 30 yrs ago, he still advised of a change for safety.

If the Remington kit is $100, I don't think I would buy it. I would consider a new trigger like timney or canjar. I am not familiar with the rem 700 action and the problem was if the safety was on, and the trigger pulled, then the safety released, the the rifle would discharge.

Does canjar or timney triggers circumvent this?

[Dragoon 45]

I question their claims about the Military's Remington's. I have never seen one with a stock trigger. All the M-24's I saw had adjustable after-market type triggers on them as issued. Then also the video's I saw of the "military" using them showed wooden stocked rifles. I haven't seen a wooden stocked bolt action sniper rifle in the military in over 25 years. I have owned and shot a number of Model 700's over the years and have never encountered this problem. Also the paid expert witness readily admitted that he considers the 700 unsafe and that no gun should ever go off when the safety is engaged. Come on he is paid to testify to this, am I the only one here that find that a little questionable? Any gun can go off with the safety engaged if the weapon is mishandled in the right way.

While the loss of life of the young boy is very regretable, much of the story of the shooting did not add up to me. When the rifle went off, it went first through a horse trailer, then hit the young boy low on one side of his body and exited out the other side of his chest higher up. I do not ascribe any criminal intent to the mother, but the story about how the shooting occurred just doesn't make sense to me. I doubt that she ever knew how it happened and has convinced herself it was the rifle's fault. Also no mention was ever made if the rifle had been worked on, as in a trigger job. Had it ever been cleaned besides just punching the bore? Why was she pointing it at a horse trailer when unloading it? This sure looks to me like a very good example of very poor gun-handling.

The reporter claimed 20 deaths and over 200 people injured with these incidents linked to the "failure" of the safety on the 700. How many 700's have been made since the rifle was introduced, 2 million or higher? That represents a .01% incident rate. I sure wish my pickup truck was that safe.

Also I would ask what ever did shooters do back in the 1800's when a safety was an unknown item?

Also maybe I am wrong here, but didn't I hear the reporter state that no gun manufacturer had ever recalled any guns for a safety defect? That is an out and out lie if that is what they stated.

Overall I view this as nothing more than a hit piece based on some very very questionable logic. It reminds me of their news reports on the gas tanks of Chevy trucks exploding back in the late 80's or early 90's. They couldn't get one to explode so they rigged it to explode after a side impact.

[pmeisel]

Four rules always apply.

However, as stated earlier, Mike Walker knew of the issue decades ago and recommended a change, and CNBC basically damned Remington for poor corporate ethics, not for making guns. They stand accused of being a greedy corporation and they have little defense against that.

It was nice to see that Mike Walker is still with us and doing pretty good for 98.

[lwknight]

I will go as far to add that in 1984 the action was modified to allow for the bolt to be opened with the safety still on.

Oops, my bad. It was 1982 that the bolt block was redesigned.
There is a lot of personal accounts posted on THR. The .org not .us

[Uncle R.]

Read Otteson's book Bolt Action Rifles. He goes into considerable detail on the design of the 721/700 trigger and safety - and the proper method of adjustment. He considers it a good design and I agree - it's long been one of my favorites. The safety locks the sear and is very positive unless badly worn or broken - much better than a trigger locking safety in that regard. BUT - if a sear or striker locking safety doesn't free the trigger to allow reset or the trigger return spring is too weak or improperly adjusted then the gun is susceptible to discharge when the safety is moved to the off position - especially if the trigger was pulled while the safety was on. This can happen because of wear or improper adjustment of the safety or trigger or dirt or rust in the trigger. It can happen to model 70s or mauser 98s or ANY rifle where the safety locks the sear or the striker instead of the trigger. The advantage of those types of safety is they can be MUCH more reliable and positive than a trigger locking safety while the safety is ON - even with a minimum of sear engagement. Discharge when the safety is moved to fire is a manifestation of dirt or wear or improper adjustment moreso than poor design. The "old style" 700 with bolt locking safety remains one of my favorite rifles and favorite trigger mechanisms. I've owned several and used them for forty years without problem. Still, I realize that no mechanism is absolutely safe, and anybody who snaps the safety off on ANY loaded weapon while it's pointed at another person is guilty of criminal negligence IMO.

[fourarmed]

My wife had one of the XP-100s that was recalled. It fired a couple of times when the bolt was closed. It had the same trouble as a lot of others: it was set too light, but this was done AT THE FACTORY. Safe handling prevented any injury. I have an ancient 721 in 300 H&H that after 40 years of safe use dropped the firing pin when I closed the bolt. It turned out that a burr thrown up when the trigger pivot pin hole was punched finally came loose and jammed the trigger to the rear. Feces happens! There is no substitute for safe gun handling.

[mroliver77]

I am glad this came up. I practice and expect safe gun handling but a reminder is always helpful. This will be passed on to all I instruct or have contact with. My 700 has never had this problem but will get a good cleaning and test next time it's out!
Jay

[cbrick]

And it surprises anyone that a broadcast network with NBC in the name does a hit job on anything firearm related? The only surprise would be if they let a little truth slip by or missed any chance (lies and deceit) to put anything firearm related in the poorest of light, now that would be surprising.

I saw the propaganda piece the other night. To the left in this country the only thing worse than a business attempting to make a profit is a firearms business attempting to make a profit.

Anymore you can be put in jail for leaving your dog in the car on a hot day. So safe gun handling, if she didn't know her son was on the other side of the trailer she was about to shoot . . . what about the horses? Just the horses lucky day huh? Who points a loaded firearm at a trailer to un-load it? Except her of course and now it's someone else's fault, sure not the fault of her stupidity is it? So now she's the victim and Remington is evil.

If you pick up any firearm and especially with the bolt closed it is loaded, it is cocked and it is ready to fire.

Rick

[Uncle Grinch]

I have a couple of old 700's, vintage mid 70's, and never did like the safety because you had to put it on FIRE to unload it.

I often considered taking my dremel to the little arm that raises up to block the bolt. That way I could unload while the safety is still on.

The firing pin block is the best safety in my opinion...

[Three44s]

My 788 ran afoul of this malady sometime back.

My gunsmith said to clean the trigger unit. Worked fine after a dousing with Gun Blaster.

After I saw the schematic on the TV program, I understood why.

I'll say this: IF Remington would have taken Mike Walker's advice back then, it would have cost squat to fix. NOW after 5 million units out there ........ it'll bankrupt Remington what with inflation and more lawyers around than ever.

Many other models and brands of rifles can run afoul if the Consumer Protection division of the Federal government gets their meat hooks upon our sport.

Basic gun handling trumps all of this ........ BUT, we live in a time when people expect the "Nanny State" to protect us from everything!


The progressives hope to push us and the second ammendment over a cliff .........

.......... any cliff!

Three 44s

[Lloyd Smale]

yup me too. Get to carried away with the screw that controls creap and they will do it but so will the trigger on my weatherby vanguard. I have never had one go off or heard of one doing it that wasnt fooled with. QUOTE=krag35;1034437]I have and have had several Remington 700's. The only time I have had that happen is after I messed with the trigger.[/QUOTE]

[Wayne Smith]

I was present when a Remington Mdl 7 fired when the safety was released. I was beside them on the range. Dad and young son, brand new rifle, just out of the box on the range. Dad carefully explained safety to son, had son clean rifle, taught him to load, set him up with rifle pointed at the target, son pushes off safety and gun fires. Dad wasn't watching at that moment, didn't believe son. He sits down, rifle does the same thing to him. He apologizes to son for not believing him, packs up the rifle and says he's taking it back. I agreed with him.

[BBA]

The model 600, 660 & XP-100 all had a similar problem with firing when the safety was pushed off as I remember. I believe Remington still has a recall on those.

[Uncle Grinch]

Would not an aftermarket trigger correct this problem until Remington gets their tail in gear and fixes it?

[dualsport]

In the CNBC program they claimed the Marine Corp acknowledged having this problem, something like 2 out of 20 rifles, IIRC. How do we find out what the facts are? I agree, safe gun handling is King, but a gun that fires unintentionally needs to be addressed, IF that is the case. Is there some way to check their 'facts'? For the record, I wouldn't be caught dead watching that network except for the head's up on this show.

[odis]

I didn't watch the program but from what I glean reading through the posts it was more about stupid corporate decisions, kind of like Ford Motor company and the Pinto in the early 70s. It'll really suck if it impacts the entire industry.

[pmeisel]

I didn't watch the program but from what I glean reading through the posts it was more about stupid corporate decisions, kind of like Ford Motor company and the Pinto in the early 70s.

Yup, exactly, that was what the program really was about. If Remington had adopted Mike Walker's recommended fix, or a similar one, sometime back in the late 40s or early 50s there would be no story.

The only reason the Pinto was a story was that legal discovery unearthed documents where engineers recommended a change to make it safer, and their management was on record as saying it cost too much, it would be cheaper to fight and settle lawsuits. That ended a few careers.

A reputation is hard to earn and easy to ruin.

[dualsport]

Maybe there's a silver lining in there. All this publicity will likely cause some people to be more careful where they point that thing, like they should. I tried and tried to "trick" my trigger on a early 70's M700 and could not make it malfunction. I sure as heck will be making sure it's always clean inside, just the same. It occured to me this CNBC program may have been a test balloon to open up a new front against us.

[280Ackley]

It occured to me this CNBC program may have been a test balloon to open up a new front against us.

Do you think? I can't believe that the liberal gun haters would push to have the exemption the firearms industry has from the rule of bureaucrats at agencies like the consumer products safety people.

This is where the real battle will be fought for gun rights. They have learned they can't get in the front door. Now they are looking for a way in through the floor boards like the rats they are.

[KCSO]

krag is right every malfunctioning 700 I have ever had in had either been dinked with or had been gooped up with oil or grease.

[scrapcan]

here is a link to the offical remington statement

http://www.remington700.tv/

and a statement to their partners is there also

[bmblong]

The guy next to me at the range last weekend flipped the safety on his 700 to fire and it fired. I don't know if he messed with the trigger beforehand or not but it happened.

[pmeisel]

Where there's a lot of smoke..........

[S.R.Custom]

Would not an aftermarket trigger correct this problem until Remington gets their tail in gear and fixes it?

Not necessarily... Having worked on quite a few 700 triggers since opening the shop, the problem I've seen is not necessarily with the trigger. It's the sloppy-ass tolerancing Remington builds into the manufacturing process of the whole gun...

The last 700 I worked on had a bolt diameter of .692", while the receiver ID was .700". Which generally is not an issue if the lugs fit tight and the bits on the back of the bolt fit tight to the receiver. But if they don't --and for Remington this is common-- you can quite literally take ahold of the cocked bolt in your thumb & forefinger and lift it off the sear, thus releasing the striker. Now take out all creep in the trigger, and you can see where there might be a real problem.

[Lonerider]

Loose projectile and Bullshot, Please PM me. Its quite apparent that you do not have the full story and yet you are willing to condem with out the full facts. CastBoolits is a great place to learn and discuss. But for the both of you to take such pot shot at some you do not even kno....shame on you.

I know this family personally and I understand a little more of the situation then you do. To be so incentive to a family that lost one of their children is wrong. Apparently neither of you have kids and both of your are so perfect that you can do no wrong. Lots mistakes were made all around, on top of the list, on top the list is Remi being a state of denial.

I am likely to be banned from castboolits....but can't sit aroun and allow a good family be treated like trash. and not say something.....

Neither of you have the full story and you were not there!!!!

I believe if an offense is committed in private....then deal with situation in private.....but if the offense is commited in public (like here) then it should be dealt with in public.....

So to my fellow castboolits brother...if I am kicked off.....thanks for the time we had.

Both of you PM me or at least apologise for jumping to a conclusion with out all the facts.

Lonerider

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Lonerider,

Were you there? Or do you just have a "fulller story"?

When someone puts a gun in their hands, there should be accountable for what happens, even if she did not see her son on the other side of the trailer . . . no different than being sure of your backstop . . . if a hunter shoots at a deer in the woods, but the boolit either misses, or passes through, and hits something else that should not be shot, that hunter is responsible, and should be held accountable.

Mistakes happen.

[looseprojectile]

In the interest of fairness I will qualify my statement about gun handling.
In the early ninties I owned a gun shop. In my opinion fifty to seventy percent of the people that own and handle guns of all kinds are not qualified and should not be allowed to own a gun without some training.
One example is, a female BATF agent pulled a Winchester 94 carbine off the rack and exclaimed, "These assult rifles are what we are after". I was dumbfounded and didn't make any comment cause I was afraid I wouldn't be able to penetrate her ignorance with any argument. Events such as this stick in a mans mind and flavor his memories.
I have two sons, one is a retired Air Force Major that I taught safe gun handling to when he was a pre teen. He is apalled at some of the gun handling he sees.
The older son has given me his guns for safe keeping till his children are gone from his home. He was on the rifle team when in the military and has won many awards. None of my family has ever had an Accidental Discharge.
Blaming someone else or the gun for poor gun handling or the manufacturer for an accident is unacceptable to me. A person has to "know" that any gun he or she is handling is safe and operating correctly. I have spent my whole adult life repairing defective firearms. Remington 700 rifles can be made to be "bet your life on it safe" along with "keep it pointed in a safe direction".
In 1960 I was shot in the guts by a guy that thought the gun was not loaded. Surprise!!!
If the truth hurts, history might not repeat itself!

Life is good

[looseprojectile]

Have you lost my email address?
Montana has a lot of dirt and Big Sky to point a gun at when unloading it. No need to endanger a horse trailer. With or without an occupant.
Ms. Barber said that she is sure that her finger was not on the trigger.
She is probably just as sure as those women that have testified against their rapist that were convicted and later found to be innocent. Lots of that kind of thing happens. "Vengeance is mine", said the Lord.
JUSTICE is gonna cost ya.

Life is good

[Heavy lead]

I'm going to stick my size 12 in my mouth and comment on this one.
I'm appaulled by gun handling I see out in the field, gun ranges, shotgun, longgun and handgun, all three. I'm 44 have no kids, but do have a 16 year old (pretty much fatherless) nephew who I'm mentoring. Drilled through his head everytime he picks a firearm up is it is a killing machine, plain and simple and even though it is a phrase not liked here by many, a weapon. Yes we have fun with them, target shoot with them, and some see them as benign machinery, but they are still the most efficient killing machine us humans have invented and should be treated as such.
Myself I did have a rifle go off once, thank God it was pointed into the side of a mountain (yes, it was a 700, and it was my fault, I had gloves on and simply had some cloth caught in the trigger and didn't realize it). It frankly scared the hell out of me, maybe was one of the best things that ever happened in that regard, never, nevernevernevernevernevernevernever ever trust a safety, or your fingers, or anything else when you have a weapon armed, not ever.
My nephew gets it, I've told him stories, and scared him. He keeps the damn muzzle pointed wherever it won't kill anything and always we hunt with bolt down on an empty chamber with the trigger pulled at the ground when we load the magazines up, when and if game is spotted then a round will enter the chamber, and not until then. Like I said safety first.
And the rifles are unloaded well before we reach the truck or whatever we have come in on, walk into camp, or wherever with the bolts open, always.
This certainly is a sad case, no doubt, this person involved in this must be living the worst kind of hell, and I certainly have sympathy for the family.
However if Remington has anymore of a problem than any other rifle manufacture of rifles out there (I have my doubts and have more 700's than any other rifles put together, and yes triggers all adjusted properly) then it should be dealt with on a fact finding basis, not a sob story tactic that the press and modern courts seem to replace investigating with these days.

[george1980]

i am kinda suprised by loneriders statement , there is no arguing the point that if the rifle had been handled safely this would have not happened its that simple , people who can not take responsability for their actions make me very angery , now with that bein said this isnt calguns lonerider you wont be banned from here for saying what you feel unless its wildly inapropreate

[waksupi]

I'm going to agree, safe gun handling is the only solution. I will shoot with few people, and even fewer will I hunt with. I have kicked people off of our ranges for doing stupid things. They don't like it, but I don't like having guns pointed at myself, or others. I will not let their hurt feelings stand in the way of not letting some innocent person being shot by their carelessness. If you shoot some one by a careless action, you screwed up, and you need to suffer the consequences.
We have the full story. Someone was shot by someone who didn't care, or pay attention to what what they are doing.
The only problem with Remington triggers, is when some one who doesn't have any idea of their proper function, tries to "fix" them. Recipe for a major screw up. Somethings, you need to leave to a professional, who understands engineering aspect of a mechanism.

[bullshot]

Lonerider
Have not revisited this thread to see your post. No PM necessary. My position is unchanged. Nothing to do with being insensitive or in your words "perfect" This sir was a preventable situation that was brought about by not using safe firearms handling. It makes no difference what other circumstances you know about this situation. It was pointing a firearm in a direction that obviously not safe. This is a tragic situation but not inexcusable. If it had been someone else holding the firearm when it went off, I'm guessing there would have been a law suit and I'll bet involuntary manslaughter would be mentioned. It looks like you may be to close to this situation to be objective. If you don't think this was preventable then I think you may want to reassess your position on safe firearms handling.