Bell System Wiping Solder - What is it and how can I cast with it?

[jonblack]

I am fairly new to casting and lead scrounging. I acquired some Bell System Wiping Solder in 5 pound ingots. I think it was about 50 ingots, each weighing about 5 pounds.

http://www.realworldpracticalshooters.com/ar15/wiping-001.jpg
Here is an image of one of the ingots


I searched and found the following threads: "Wiping Solder?" (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=57398) and "wiping solder" (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=8042)

However, these threads left a bit of a gap in terms of determining what the alloy is. I would like to use this to add to wheel weights for my bullet casting forays.

Can anyone add any information of what the composition is as well as how much to add to stick-on wheel weights and clip-on wheel weights?

Thanks in advance for your help.

jonblack

ETA image of wiping solder ingot

[uncle joe]

might be of help
http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/construction/plumbing/Standard-Practical/Chapter-II-Wiping-Solder-Its-Composition-And-Use.html

[John Boy]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=37004
I understand though wiping solder is 20 Sn / 80 Pb

[jonblack]

Thanks for the link uncle joe. I saw that searching on Google but overlooked the part where it said "Ten parts of lead and six parts of tin is a proportion sometimes used." Since, you linked to it, I rescanned the article and picked up that tidbit.

John Boy - I don't think I had seen the thread you linked to. Everyone in the thread seemed to say 40% tin and 60% lead. Your understanding is a bit different. Can you elaborate on the difference?

I did find an good article searching Google:

The point that caught my attention was: Lead-tin Cadmium as a Substitute for Lead-Tin Wiping Solder (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50229a005)


The main objective of this investigation was to find a wiping solder that would be at least as satisfactory as and cheaper than the 62 percent lead-38 percent tin alloy which is generally used for wiping purposes

That seems to correspond fairly closely with the aforementioned thread in which people said the wiping solder was 40% tin and 60% lead.

Thanks again guys. Keep the information coming.

jonblack

[shotman]

cant use that but will buy themmmmmmmmmm LOL
will trade pure or mix wheel for some
by its self its a little soft but dont frost

[jonblack]

For the sake of discussion, let's say these wiping solder bars are 40/60 (tin/lead). That would mean for every 5# bar there would be 2# tin and 3# lead. Would I add one bar of this to every 96 pounds of stick on wheel weights?

If so, having 50 bars would mean I have at least enough to handle roughly 5,000 pounds of "pure" lead. Am I missing something on the math?

Thanks guys
jonblack

[lwknight]

Sounds like a SG test is in order

[runfiverun]

you'd have 50-1 that way some time back winchester used 50-1 for some of it's revolver cartridges.
they went to 40-1 in thier 45 colt loads sometime after smokeless.
if i had the tin and a ton of stick-ons i'd go at least with 30/35-1 [ great gas check hollowpoint alloy]and work from there.
some cartridges and loads will do fine with 40-30-1 but any pressure other than 14-20k or so you will need you to go to 20-1.
keith used 16-1 in his 44 mag loads.
and rcbs uses 10-1 in it's rifle molds to determine poured size.

[jonblack]

OK, so I searched SG Test and didn't readily see anything. Please elaborate on the SG Test.

Thank you
jonblack

[jonblack]

Thanks for the reply runfiverun. I guess I am just wrapping my head around the different alloys and when to use a specific alloy.

The only thing I'd like to cast for (at the moment) is .40, 9mm, and a LEE .30 155grain GC.

Even at 10-1 I would have enough wiping solder to last a long time.

jonblack

[lwknight]

Testing specific gravity is easy and very accurate with solder that has only tin/lead.
The larger the ingot, the better reading you will get. A good digital scale is required.

Weigh the ingot, (metric mode is simplest)
Place a pan of water large enough to hang the ingot into without touching the pan in any way.
Zero the scale if you can.
Suspend the ingot in the water . ( fishing line works great)
Divide the ingot weight by the suspended weight and you have the SG.

SG Calculator (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18225&d=1261865841)

You can change the values in the calculator that will not go all the ay to your scale.
I suggest saving a copy before doing any editing.

The SG for solder will be [ 10.21 for 20/80 ] [9.28 for 40/60 ] and [ 8.88 for 50/50 ]

[jonblack]

Ah...specific gravity. Thanks LW.

jonblack

[jonblack]

Here is a screenshot of a portion of a book I found on the internet.

http://www.realworldpracticalshooters.com/ar15/wiping-002.jpg

jonblack

[lwknight]

So it would seem that 38/62 would be the perfect solder. No wonder plumbers liked the ever pervasive 37/63 so much.

[WILCO]

This is a good thread. I learned something new today.

[jonblack]

I'm going to do some calculations to see what my real world casting needs are. If I see that I have more wiping solder than I can realistically use, I will offer my surplus on the Swapin' & Sellin' board.

What would be a fair price (for both parties) for the wiping solder bars? Until I can get more exact figures let's call the bars 5# and 38/62 (tin/lead).

Thank you
jonblack

[starbits]

What would be a fair price (for both parties) for the wiping solder bars? Until I can get more exact figures let's call the bars 5# and 38/62 (tin/lead).


At today's spot prices $12/lb for tin and $1.06 for lead that is $22.80 for the tin and $3.29 for the lead or a total of $26.09. That makes it $5.22 per pound, not counting shipping.

That is what it is worth, but I doubt you would get many takers at that price, but I could be wrong. You would probably get more interest by offering to trade for ww ingots.

Starbits

[Echo]

When I buy tin on eBay I figure on paying up to $10/lb, and ignore the Pb. So for your 5-lb ingots that are almost 40% Sn, I wouldn't pay more than $20 each, and be happy. And one ingot would sweeten 95 lbs of WW's nicely.

[white eagle]

I had a pair ingots that I bought from a fella for .30c/#
one was a 25#ingot of lead and the other was the one pictured
I never knew what that ingot was till today :holysheep

[jonblack]

Thanks for the replies regarding pricing guys. I have offered up 15 ingots in the Swappin' and Sellin' forum. You can see the post here (http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=96102).

The asking price is $20 per 5# ingot.

So far I have 130 views, no bites, and one PM where a member (whom I respect and whose posts I enjoy reading) politely conveyed he felt my asking price was too expensive.

I am glad to see others who agree on what the material is worth, at least taking into consideration market prices.

Sometimes I feel "darned if you do and darned if you don't" when trying to sell stuff on the Swappin' and Sellin' board.

If I was hoarding the stuff people would possibly be upset that other shooters can't get their hands on supplies to cast. Rather, I am trying to sell my surplus at what I feel is a fair price based on market calculations and there is zero interest in 130 views.

Oh well...
jonblack

[lwknight]

I had 980 lbs of linotype and only could sell 2 60# boxes shipped for $75.00
Shipping was $13.95 so they were offered linotype for just over $1.00 per pound.
My brother took 1/2 of it for what I had in it ( about $0.89 ) and I just kept the rest.

Linotype is worth about $2.30 per pound if you count what the materials in it cost.

[jonblack]

LW

Dang, that is tough.

I'll probably do the same and end up keeping the ingots for myself. Not only do they have a commodity value, they are probably 50+ years old, for what it is worth.

jonblack

[white eagle]

any of you all want to buy a mold
or trade for one
I know what you fellas mean
sometimes they get scooped and sometimes not

[Adk Mike]

My Grandfather gave me 10 of those exact ingots 25 years ago. I smelted them down into 1 pound ingots and keep them labeled in an ol Army ammo can. I use them all the time mixed with pure lead and WWs. They have been nice to have. After all this time I'd love to come accross a few more. MIke

[bishopgrandpa]

Adk Mike - I am in the Saratoga area and have some lino pigs to get rid of. Are you close by?

[imashooter2]

You guys have to stop looking at the spot metals market. Scrap is only worth what you can sell it for. If you have metal offered on this board and it doesn't sell, then you have it priced too high. It's as simple as that. Lower the price until it sells or keep it.

[jonblack]

I pulled the ad on the wiping solder bars due to lack of interest. I'd rather hold onto it than sell it at a price that I will regret latter.

jonblack

[fryboy]

reloaders and casters are thrifty by nature , true i could buy solder from roto metals for 7.99 @ # ( less in larger quantities 40/60 )
http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/solder4060.htm

which beats buying it at lowes/homedepot @

http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-Torches-Soldering-Irons-Solder/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xk3Zbqjl/R-100672842/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

@ $12.42 a # for 50/50 but mostly i use pewter i find in garbage sales that are old and mangled ( sometimes not but ..) the uglier it is the cheaper i get it for , the best to date ? 7 #'s of 98% pure tin for $1.00 and i prolly could of talked them down , $3-5 is my limit per pound which is also more than the scrap guy will give u for old pewter [shrugz]

[jonblack]

$3-5 is my limit per pound which is also more than the scrap guy will give u for old pewter [shrugz]

The weird thing is my 5 pound bar of 38/62 was $20 plus $4.95 shipping, which works out to $5 per pound shipped. The price got cheaper if you bought more than one bar because the shipping gets divided across each additional bar of solder. My highest price was cheaper per pound than than the website you mentioned. In fact I was 50% of their price for an effectively equivalent alloy. I was $4/lb + ship, and they are $7.99/lb + ship. Still, I had no interest so I pulled the ad.

jonblack

[fryboy]

ummm my 3-5 limit is for almost pure tin .... yes i know that the two web sites i posted was higher ( i did after all post them ... ) i also saw the last comment on ur past thread .... unless a item posted for sale is a steal it often sets there for a bit - even if it's a decent price members come and go as they can , i've spent alot of my evening time this week casting ( lovin the weather ! ) , $25 shipped per 2 pounds = 12.50 per pound tin btw , a month or two ago roto metals had a sale , end result i believe if bought in quantity was appox $10 per pound of pure tin ( mite of been $10.99 [shrugz] ), i had no spare cash to take advantage of that either ( especially in the quantity required to get that price ( 50+ with free shipping ))

[lwknight]

I guess I timed it right. A few months ago I ordered #50 pounds of tin for the price break plus it was a 10% off special. I ended up with tin for about $9.00 or less per pound. Anyway I have enough tin for a ton ( literally) of boolits.

[jonblack]

When I buy tin on eBay I figure on paying up to $10/lb, and ignore the Pb. So for your 5-lb ingots that are almost 40% Sn, I wouldn't pay more than $20 each, and be happy. And one ingot would sweeten 95 lbs of WW's nicely.

Echo

When you say one ingot would sweetend 95 lbs of WW, are you referring to clip-on WW? I just wanted to make sure and differentiate between stick-on WW.

Thank you
jonblack

[Ferdinand]

I'm meeting a guy tomorrow to buy lbs of lead that was on Craigslist. The seller says that it's from Ohio Bell. I wonder if it's wiping solder. If it is, I'll soon be looking to trade for pure or selling a portion of what I'm buying.

Any idea what else it could be coming from Ohio Bell?

[imashooter2]

I'm meeting a guy tomorrow to buy lbs of lead that was on Craigslist. The seller says that it's from Ohio Bell. I wonder if it's wiping solder. If it is, I'll soon be looking to trade for pure or selling a portion of what I'm buying.

Any idea what else it could be coming from Ohio Bell?

Cable sheath.

[jonblack]

Your example is not really a direct comparison. I made a direct comparison in price between my 38/62 and their 40/60. Yes, there is a difference in alloy but a fair enough comparison. I was cheaper by 50%.


$25 shipped per 2 pounds = 12.50 per pound tin btw ,

...a month or two ago roto metals had a sale , end result i believe if bought in quantity was appox $10 per pound of pure tin ( mite of been $10.99 [shrugz] ),<snip>in the quantity required to get that price ( 50+ with free shipping ))

The quoted comparison is between my 2# tin price and their 50# tin price. I would have, no doubt, lowered my price per bar if a buyer had bought 50# of tin, which would have been 25 bars of solder. Plus he would have gotten 75# of lead as part of the deal, which some seem to overlook the value of in my offer, yet others are selling lead for $1 per pound in 50 pound lots.

I also offered free shipping with purchases of 6 or more bars. So that means a guy could have gotten my tin for $10 a pound, free shipping and 18 pounds of "free" lead for a total outlay of $120. The buyer would have had to spend $500 to get tin for $10/lb on the site mentioned.

A lot can happen in a month or so. The price of tin is much higher now than it was a month ago. Their sale was over during the time mine was current.

I think the real problem is the way my product was offered (as bars of solder) made it hard to understand that it was a good deal compared to competitors' prices, especially when comparing apples-to-apples.

I took a look on eBay and the best deals on there (that actually sell) are comparable to my offer. There are also higher prices. Some sell but most don't. The bottom line is I didn't sell any here, so the price must have been too high for this particular venue.

I apologize for the rant. I don't mean anything personal by it. I just want to clarify the information and present it in a comparative manner.
I shouldn't worry about it so much. I guess I'm just sore I didn't sell any of my solder, and I should quit whining about it now!

Thanks for putting up with my whining
jonblack

[fryboy]

this is the telling part ..
" Some sell but most don't "....

there's a current one on ebay ....50 #'s $60 - 85% tin 15% antimony plus $11 shipping = 42 #'s for 70 ....it seems to be selling ,it's also in my "magic price range and i have no money this week [double dratz] plus it has 7.5 #'s of antimony ( which is desirable by way )

http://cgi.ebay.com/lead-free-sinker-alloy-tin-alloy-green-sinkers-/250717474068?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5fed0d14

also part of the problem from my perception is that u didnt leave the add up very long , of course in ur eyes it was too long but i'm not here to quibble [shrugz] and metal markets will always be in flux but nowhere do i know that i can take my lead , tin , silver or gold or even steel in and get full current daily value , FWIW if one ordered $100 of tin from rotometals they offer free shipping as well , the really weird thing ? i see alot of adds for lead all for basically the same price yet some guys cant seem to give it away while other guys cant seem to keep it in stock ( yes at the very same price ) [shrugz] i have a add up right now that has a freebie in it ( well other than u pay for the shipping ) i know it's a part some one could use , it may sit there for a week or it could go tonite or it could not go at all but it'll never go if i drop the add ( except in the lead pot for flux and that would be a waste )

[jonblack]

there's a current one on ebay ....50 #'s $60 - 85% tin 15% antimony plus $11 shipping
----------------------------------------------
also part of the problem from my perception is that u didnt leave the add up very long ,

Hey, that is a good deal!

Yes, you are right. I didn't leave the add up long enough. Probably should have left it up for a while. Might have sold a few, but then I wouldn't have anything to complain about!

Thanks again
jonblack

[Daddyfixit]

there's a current one on ebay ....50 #'s $60 - 85% tin 15% antimony plus $11 shipping = 42 #'s for 70 ....it seems to be selling ,it's also in my "magic price range and i have no money this week [double dratz] plus it has 7.5 #'s of antimony ( which is desirable by way )

http://cgi.ebay.com/lead-free-sinker-alloy-tin-alloy-green-sinkers-/250717474068?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5fed0d14

Wow! A little over a $1 per pound! That is good!
But as with most flebay alloy do he really know if it is 85% tin 15% atimony??
Does anyone know the seller?

[Ferdinand]

imashooter2 - I think that your guess is correct. The seller described the product from which this lead was recovered as "tubing". Although I don't know exactly what cable sheath is, it sounds like this would have been it. It seems pretty soft - it's case into ingots.

[imashooter2]

imashooter2 - I think that your guess is correct. The seller described the product from which this lead was recovered as "tubing". Although I don't know exactly what cable sheath is, it sounds like this would have been it. It seems pretty soft - it's case into ingots.


Cable sheath is thin lead tubing that surrounds underground wire for waterproofing. There are many formulas, but all are close enough to pure to be used as such for hobby casting purposes.

My Father was a Bell Lineman and in the '60's we shot literally tons of it.

[Echo]

Echo

When you say one ingot would sweetend 95 lbs of WW, are you referring to clip-on WW? I just wanted to make sure and differentiate between stick-on WW.

Thank you
jonblack

Yes indeed - clip-ons - 95 lbs of COWW's plus one 5-lb ingot of 40/60 will give right at 2% Sn, which most folks swear by.

Used with stickies, it would result in only about 2% Sn, that would certainly improve the fill-out, but few care for a 50-1 alloy. OK, 49-1 for the really anal...

[fryboy]

used to get what was called block tin ... it was tubing from old coolers mostly tin and a lil antimony ... it would be a good guess thatthat was what he's selling , but as i stated that is just a guess ( a danged good one but ...)

[jonblack]

Yes indeed - clip-ons - 95 lbs of COWW's plus one 5-lb ingot of 40/60 will give right at 2% Sn, which most folks swear by.

Used with stickies, it would result in only about 2% Sn, that would certainly improve the fill-out, but few care for a 50-1 alloy. OK, 49-1 for the really anal...

Your Sn percentages are the same. Must be a typo?

jonblack

[jonblack]

Wow! A little over a $1 per pound! That is good!
But as with most flebay alloy do he really know if it is 85% tin 15% atimony??
Does anyone know the seller?

I was wondering how one would go about verifying the alloy.

jonblack

[ulav8r]

JonBlack,

Don't worry about it not selling. It won't deteriorate in storage and in a year or two it will be worth more.:popcorn:

[lwknight]

in a year or two it will be worth more.
I'm betting , sooner than that!

[lwknight]

I was wondering how one would go about verifying the alloy.
SPecific gravity test + melting point test = 98% verification

[imashooter2]

I was wondering how one would go about verifying the alloy.

jonblack

The seller has relisted his alloy and I asked him the original source. He said it was babbit reclaimed from industrial bearings. I've looked around a bit and I don't find any babbit that is advertised as 85sn-15sb. Everything that I find in the 85% tin range has only 7- 8% antimony and also contains 7 - 8% undesirable copper.

So the short answer is, he doesn't know what he's selling so you can't know what you're buying.

I'm not in a market for tin, but if I was, I would rather buy your known product than unknown product from eBay.