Newbie leading woes

[dmbassking]

Hey all, I've just started casting and shot my first 50 rounds today (the results were very satisfying, well initially). Accuracy went down the tube after the first 10 rds and of course I figured it was just me. I got home to clean the guns and there seemed to be more lead in the barrel than hit the target. Needless to say this is very frustrating. Here are my components:

Lee 200gr .452 dia FP loaded as cast (about .4525)
WW as the bullet material
850fps according to the chrony

I used the LLA because my Star hadn’t shown up yet and I am thinking I wasn't liberal enough in my application of the lube.

How much LLA do you put on the bullet?
How much leading do you get with a correctly lubed boolit?


Well, back to the bore brush

Mike

[grumpy one]

You're bound to get a more comprehensive reply from one of the people with more experience in your calibre, but as a starting point, what cartridge are you shooting? Equally important, when you get your barrel clean, what is the groove dimension when you slug it? (Don't bother to slug it while leaded, you'll just get a false reading on the small side.) And what load did you use?

You have leaded the barrel, and chances are you did that either from using too much pressure, or with a bullet size that is too small for your groove dimension. You can get too much pressure without achieving a high velocity, just by using a fast powder that gives a high peak pressure but a low average pressure. So, for right now I can't guess whether you have an undersized bullet or too big a charge of fast powder, which would collapse your bullet base.

There are multitudinous people on this board who - once you tell them what the cartridge is, what the load is, and what the firearm is - can tell you what groove dimension would be typical, what would be a credible load of whatever powder you are using, and hence perhaps diagnose this without even knowing the groove dimension.

Geoff

[dmbassking]

Hey Geoff,

It's a Colt series 80 in 45acp. I am using Unique as a propellant. I haven’t slugged the bore yet as I’m new to this whole thing and was more than anxious to get out shooting (I also have nothing but ww and thought that would be too hard). As far as too much pressure goes I don't see that as being the problem. I did shoot some commercially cast 230gr bullets out of it a few months ago that gave me no leading problems at all (with unique and flying out the tube at 900 fps, sized by manufacture to .452). Perhaps shooting as cast is causing excess pressure? Please be patient with me as I'm not sure what I am doing yet.

[454PB]

Yes, more information is needed. Nothing obviously wrong jumps out from the info provided. In .45 ACP or .45 Colt, .4525 is generally acceptable in modern guns, and 850 fps using WW's is a mild load. However, undersized throats in a revolver will resize the boolit before it gets to the bore, causing leading. My experience with LLA has been good, it doesn't take much to do the job. However, it's kind of hard to describe "how much".

[omgb]

Well, first things first. Take the barrel assembly out of the gun. Clean it inside very well and be sure to remove all of the leading. Next, get a few of the holow egg sinkers from the local sporting goods store. find one that is slightly larger than your bore. Beginning at the muzzle, tap a lightly lubed egg sinker into the muzzle using a plastic or wooden mallet. When the sinker is in and flust with the muzzle, use a brass or wooden dowel and a medium weight hammer. Strike the rod just hard wnough to drive the slug through. I prefer a medium weight hammer so that I don't have to wack the hell out of the slug to get it moving. I believe I get a more faithful reading this way. Once the slug is out, mic it a few times and take the average of the higher readings. This is the size, plus .002 that you should size your bullets to. Now, you will need a good lube too. IMHO, Lee lube is not good lube. Others disagree. Any of the better bullet lubes will do. I like LBT Soft Blue but that's just my opinion. Try these steps before fiddeling with other things. My guess is this will cure your problem.

[dmbassking]

Nothing jumping out is the problem. Of course reading up on the subject is no substitute for experience, but the knowledge that I do have (or think I have) keeps me leaning toward a crappy lubing job/crappy lube. I put on just enough that I could feel it on the bullet when I picked them up. To the naked eye they look unlubed but you can feel that they are (like an idiot I left that part out, sorry). I figure that if it is a lube issue it will go away when the lubrisizer comes in this week.

Thanks for the slugging info.

Edit: Thank God my 1st love is shooting and the 2nd is fishing- avg reading .450

[Junior1942]

I think you simply didn't put enough lube on the bullets. I use two coats of Lee Liquid Alox on all of my cast bullets for pistol and for rifle. Knock on wood, but I never get leading even at 1950 fps with ww alloy.

In my opinion, Lee Liquid Alox is great stuff. I haven't used my lubrisizer in a couple of years.

[Bass Ackward]

Your suspecions of lube could be correct since you shot other lead before without problem.

Even if you had "enough" lube on your bullet when you started, By that I mean that it might not have leaded, heat from any source will minimize lube effectiveness. So while you may have started out in good shape, your blammin might have produced enough heat that it moved you into the failure zone. You might be better off carrying a brush with you and monitoring your situation a little more closely. Once it builds up, it requires much more effort to remove. I have loops on the outside of my holster that carry a cleaning rod with me until I am sure I have moved passed any problems with either a load or the gun.

All lubes that you use will have some limitations. You have to learn how you want to shoot and under what conditions to find "the lube" that is best for you.

If you like high rates of fire, you can also use a product made by Shooters Choice called "Lead Remover". It is fairly worthless for removing lead unless it is very light. But it has teflon in it that gets under leading allowing it to be shot out with the next couple of rounds. After you use it enough times to finially get to all the surface area clear, any lead deposited, will brush out with one pass.

[Char-Gar]

A 200 grains SWC (H&G 68 or clone) going 850 fps is a primo load in the 1911 pistol. I have fired tens of thousands of this load. I use either Unique or AA5.
I get xero leading and outstanding accuracy.

Air cooled WW is a good alloy for this load. I size my bullets either .451 or .452.

I have never used LLA so can't comment on it's use. Some folks swear by it and other folks swear at it.

My best guess is you have a lube problem, but I won't take an oath on that. Something is wrong for shure and for certain. If I had your pistol and some of your loads in my hand, I could figure it out in short order, but it is hard to do anything but list possible causes on the internet.

One question is how much have you shot this pistol before with ball ammo. If it has not been shot before, you might have a very rough barrel. If it has been shot allot and you did not remove all of the copper fouling before switching to case, that might be a key factor.

[StarMetal]

Well sounds like me and charger do about the same thing. I use a bullet similar to his and Unique also and have zero problem and no leading.

I just can't get hooked on that tumble lube system. Some fellows have luck with it and like it. Me, I'm not taking a chance with it. I shoot a variety of loads from extremely mild to pretty hot. It may work for light loads, but I doubt it will hold up to heavy or hot loads. So why should I have two lubing systems when one will do it all. I think economics has alot to do with it also. Alot of reloaders are on a budget and can't put out the bigger bucks for better products. That's what Lee is all about, catering to the folks that can't spend alot of money and there's nothing wrong with that. I just hope they don't turn a reloader off shooting cast that may have had a bad experience with their tumble lube system.

Joe

[GooseGestapo]

You really haven't provided enough information for a definitive anwser.
What Powder were you using?

I suspect that you are using a rather fast burning powder.

Combined with a soft batch of alloy, you are simply over powering the bullet and lube.

Like another respondant mentioned, the rapidity of fire can greatly affect the heat and consequential leading you experienced.

I have had very good luck with the Lee 205gr H&G "clone" bullet as another respondant mentioned; However, I've less than stellar performance from the 200gr SWC with the two lube grooves and rounded nose profile.

Either way, back your loads down to the 750fps area, and add about 2oz of 95/5 (tin/antimony) lead-free solder to your mix and see how that does.

I get good results from the Lee Liquid Alox, but it does have it's limitations.

I don't have good luck with it with straight wheel weight alloy, aircooled, and loaded beyond ~18,000psi.

Also, a powder in the AA#5-PowerPistol-BlueDot-WinSuperField-Hod.LongShot range will yeild much better results.

I had to abandon trying Bullseye or Win231 with w/w metal at pressures/velocities above that of .38spl wadcutter or match SWC pressures or speeds.

I suggest you do likewise.

Please provide additional information if this dosen't sound reasonable.

[omgb]

I believe he said Unique and even listed the powder charge. WW metal should be excellent. It has got to be a lube issue. For cleaning lead out of a barrel, I've found that Kroil is very effective. I wet the bore with it and let it work for 30 or so minutes. Then a couple of tight fitting patches wetted with Kroil and I get it all out. On the rare occasions where that was not enough, I have a Lewis Lead Remover. Brownell's has them. The Outer's unit works well too. IIRC, the Outer's rod and kit was a few bucks cheaper than the Lewis LR . Since they are mechanically the same, I'd go with the cheaper unit.

[milsurpcollector1970]

I quit using the liquid alox because it started to lead on me. Pure wheel weights are not too hard for my kimber 1911. You may have a rough barrel or you need to switch lubes. I use a RCBS 200 gr SWC with Bullseye and lube in a Lyman 450 with whatever stick lube I can find. work great and no leading.

Some here have no problems with the lee liquid alox, other people cant use it at all. If you going to shoot lead all the time, clean the barrel down to bare steel with a good copper solvent. This will help stop leading too

[dmbassking]

Thanks guys!

I got all of the leading out and will definitely be checking the bore every 10rds or so until the prooblem is resolved.

In all honesty I never liked the idea of tumble lubing but if I ever need to do it I'm glad it's there. With any luck I'll have my Star by Wednesday and Lord willing this problem will be behind me.

Another question: I know there are too many variables to come up with a definite answer on this, but how many rounds can you typically shoot from a 45 without leading?

omgb: if you had the choice would you use LBT blue, blue soft, or commercial?

[swheeler]

DMBA; get yourself some Chore Bore Copper cleansing pads, make sure they are pure copper ones, not some plated pretender, wrap a 1/2 in wide strip of it around your bore brush, dip it in solvent and scrub the lead out. When you get tha lead all out clean the barrel with your favorite copper remover, I like sweets 7.62 until the patches come out white(grey) and then a good scrubbing with JB compound- now you are ready to shoot cast boolits. Maybe you had residual copper fouling in the barrel from previously firing jacketed bullets?
Unique has worked fine for me and WW alloy should be fine for your velocity- Ditch the LLA, Lar 45-Glenn Larsen,1300 Jensen ST, Pocatello, ID 83201-whom posts here has a whole line of bullet lubes that are fantastic, prices are better than anything from tthe major names and service is beyond compare! When you get your star up and running with .452 sizer in place your problems will be over IMHO.
Scot

[swheeler]

DMBA; get yourself some Chore Bore Copper cleansing pads, make sure they are pure copper ones, not some plated pretender, wrap a 1/2 in wide strip of it around your bore brush, dip it in solvent and scrub the lead out. When you get tha lead all out clean the barrel with your favorite copper remover, I like sweets 7.62 until the patches come out white(grey) and then a good scrubbing with JB compound- now you are ready to shoot cast boolits. Maybe you had residual copper fouling in the barrel from previously firing jacketed bullets?
Unique has worked fine for me and WW alloy should be fine for your velocity- Ditch the LLA, Lar 45 -Glenn Larsen,1300 Jensen ST, Pocatello, ID 83201- whom posts here has a whole line of bullet lubes that are fantastic, prices are better than anything from tthe major names and service is beyond compare! When you get your star up and running with .452 sizer in place your problems will be over IMHO.
Scot

[versifier]

If you have the right combination for your .45, you shouldn't be getting any leading at all. As mentioned, thoroughly clean it of all fouling, lead and copper, then slug it to determine proper boolit size.

I use LLA and shoot thousands of rounds through both a Kimber and a Colt Officer's model with ACWW boolits without problems. I think you need more lube. You should be able to see it on them clearly. Properly applied, (assuming your barrel is not oversized), you should not be having problems with LLA.

Not sizing will only be a potential problem if your boolits are not round in cross section. Some moulds do cast out-of-round boolits. Measure an unlubed boolit over the mould line then rotate and measure at 90* to the line. If you are seeing a difference, then you need to size. Push-through sizers work fine for the job, are easy to use, and inexpensive to buy.

[44man]

After hundreds of years of working on boolits and size and depth of grease grooves to find out what works and how much lube a boolit has to carry to do it's job all the way to the end of the barrel, along comes somebody that says just dip the boolit in Alox. Even makes boolits with no grease grooves to speak of. Anyone ever figure out how far down the bore the boolit goes before the skin of lube is gone?
Yeah, it has worked forever on the .22 rimfire at the velocities they go, but if you look, there is quite a bit of lube, some grooves and it is NOT Alox but a waxy substance.
Ever see the smoke from Alox? Thats right, it is BURNING in the bore so even though it might have lubed the first boolit, there is none left in the bore for the next shot because it BURNED away. Now you have a dry bunch of fouling left that will surely scrape lead off the next boolit. The solution is to put two or three coats of the crap on a boolit hoping there will be some left in the bore. Expect just more smoke. Why anyone wants to fool with the work of putting 2 or 3 coats of it an a bunch of booits, waiting for it to dry, when just lubing once does the job with a good lube, baffles me.
Some swear by it, NOT ME, I swear AT it. I hate to clean out leading!
Now 50-50 Alox and wax works better, but I still think it is the beeswax that is doing the job! Alox just softens it. Seems to me that any oil from mineral oil to cooking oil does as good and in most cases a lot better job then Alox. Take a look at Felix, LBT blue, LBT magnum, and Lar's carnauba red, they are all fantastic and contain zero Alox.
But guys want it and believe in it so I say to Lar45, keep making and selling it.
Sorry Joe, but that is how I feel! Been playing with the junk for 51 years and gathered enough lead from bores to make enough boolits to last another 51. I now very seldom have to clean my bores and shoot for months without a speck of lead.

[swheeler]

DMBA; since you have already fired commercial cast that were sized at .452" @ .9K with zero leading, and they were a heavier bullet loaded with the same powder to higher velocity, I think you are pretty safe in assuming lube or alloy- and it's not alloy.

[StarMetal]

Versifier,

Not to start a pissing contest, but to help this fellow out because he's asking for help and knowledge, you said: Not sizing will only be a potential problem if your boolits are not round in cross section. Well that's true. But if you go back and look at his post you will see he mentioned his unsized size was .4525 about...he said. Well that's not exactly true. Some 45acp pistols won't chamber a round if the bullet is larger then .451. Some fellows on this forum are believers in only sizing the 45acp to .451, BD comes to mine as one. I'm not, I believe in .452, unless I get a tight chambered one. Chargar uses both also I believe. So having a bullet out of round like you said only complicates the problem with a tight chambered 45acp pistol.

Joe

[44man]

Joe is correct, if the round chambers without a problem use the larger boolit. Only size if you have a problem. If your casting temperature is kept even, all boolits will be so close you will not notice. If you need a larger boolit, increase the temperature and if you want a smaller boolit, turn down the heat. Just keep the mould temperature steady which means do not cool with wet rags, etc. Time the sprue hardening before cutting. Cast at a steady pace. Good boolits cannot be hurried. I would rather have 100 perfect boolits then 1000 that need weighed, measured, sorted and sized. I would rather lube each by hand and hit the target then to mass lube, miss and clean out leading. I have always felt one good shot will kill a deer or hit the bullseye. The one thing I don't like to hear is when someone says they can make 500 boolits in an hour. I always think, WHY! How many hours are spent sorting bad ones? You have to learn the quantity of boolits is not important, the quality is.
I go deer hunting with 5 in the cylinder and only shoot one. No extra loads filling belts or pockets.
If you are shooting steel, seeing how fast you can waste ammo or cowboy action shooting, then it is not as important.

[Buckshot]

.............dmbassking, first of all a hearty welcome to the board and we're glad to have ya.

BTW, I see you live in Beaumont, CA. Just a hop skip and a jump up the I-10 from me in Redlands. Deputy Al lives in Yuca-pie so he's even 'closter' :-). Have you ever shot at Inland Fish and Game north of Redlands on Orange (well it turns into Boulder but it starts out Orange St)?

If you can wrangle a Tuesday at the range you oughta come on down the hill. One of our bunch lives in Cherry Valley, BTW. There's usually 4-5 of us all shooting cast lead. We have a little informal match each Tuesday you're welcome to partake of. There IS money involved, so it can get a bit tense. Actually what we do is each kick in a buck and shoot for score. Winner takes the pot.

Other then that it's a BS session. The range opens at 0800 and we're usually all there by 9 or thereabouts. One of us takes orders for lunch about 11 and then flys to Rosa Marias just up the street and brings it back. We shoot the match after we get done eating and blabbing.

If you've never been there don't go up Orange St and they're building a bridge across the Santa Ana river and the road is closed. Probably won't be open again before the next century. Take the 30 then exit 5th St and turn right to the signal, and then make another right. The range is down a bit on the left. Ignore the "Road closed" signs. Those are for the bridge.

Lee Liquid Alox. Each to thier own, but I kinda like the goop. I use it mainly for 3 things. One is on bore rider boolits, as I think the bare lead of the nose deserves some lube and for a fact it sure makes engraving them easier. The 2nd is for plinking and target loads in pistols. My K38 is a tack driver with the Lee 358-148WC cast of pure lead and TL'd over 2.7grs of Bullseye. A couple revolters in 38 S&W also like it. The final use is on paper patched rifle boolits.

I would suggest your thin the LLA with paint thinner. Maybe 50-50 or a bit less of the juice. This makes a nice thin coat on the slugs like a wash. It coats the slugs VERY evenly. Spread'em out single layer on waxed paper. Depending upon the temp and evaporation, you might be able to come back in a few hours and rake'm all around again on the paper. Actually instead of waxed paper I buy that white freezer wrap paper as it has like a plastic coating on one side. You can fold it up after using it and use it 4-5 times before it gives up.

You might feel a 2nd coat is called for on peppier loads and the 2nd coat goes on just as nice.

I'm wondering on your leading deal what it could be besides lube, as personally LLA has done very well for me so let me suppose something else. Most 45 ACP's have pretty shallow grooves I understand. I'm not a pistol guy and don't have much experience with the 1911 or the cartridge (in a pistol).

I'm wondering rather then lube, or even alloy if your case sizing might have something to do with it? The commercial cast you shot did well and as a rule that stuff tends to run hard. Your ACWW and LLA leaded. WW usta wuz in the 10-14 BHN range way back when, but it just isn't the same these days. Some I've rendered and tested ingots came in at 9 to 11 bhn. I'm sure the commercial were running close to 16 bhn.

It might possibly be that your ACWW are being sized down some when seated in the cases? Maybe? Without a doubt, that DOES happen sometimes. I don't know if the 45 ACP brass exhibits the wild casewall thickness variations of some other cases, such as the 9mm from maker to maker?

I have a Witness (CZ75 clone) in 38 Super and for a fact the difference between R-P and W-W is several thousandths thickness. Offhand I don't recall which is which at the moment but one is noticeably harder to size and flare then the other. And it requires more effort to seat the slug in the thicker brass.

Anyway it's just a thought. Speaking of WW my Witness is very accurate with the Lyman 147gr TCBB over 7.2grs of WC820 at 1200 fps. That's naturally a PB slug and oddly enough they're usually just TL'd as they drop at the .357" diameter my stuttermatic requires.

.................Buckshot

[dmbassking]

Hey Buckshot, Thanks for the invite. I think I may take you up on it (the BS-ing part anyway).

My Star came in today so I figured I would load some up in the next day or two and head down to the range. I am hoping it was a lube problem as the commercial cast boolits were sized and lubed in the "normal" fashion and mine were only kissed with LLA.

44man- Upping the heat will result in larger diameter boolits? Haven't heard of that before. With proper technique about how much larger are we talking? A couple thou?

[44man]

Might gain a half to a thousandth. What happens is the mould expands more. It also depends on the caliber as to what you can gain. Larger boolits get a little larger.

[Wayne Smith]

Might gain a half to a thousandth. What happens is the mould expands more. It also depends on the caliber as to what you can gain. Larger boolits get a little larger.

Is there a noticable difference between iron and alum. molds in this. I would guess the iron moves more??

[omgb]

Truth is, aluminum moves/expands more. This is especially true in large 45 cal bullets on up. Mtn Moulds will not even consider cutting moulds from aluminum in large caliber weights simply because of the difficulty in keepin bullets with in specified diameter. This is a fairly new descion of theirs but they are ademant about it. I have a couple of large 45 cal LBT moulds and if I don't regulate the temp carefully, bullet weight goes all over the place. (+/- 4 grains or more) Size also wanders by as much as .0015.

[44man]

Expansion would be different and I do not know the difference. I guess I will have to experiment with it. The moulds I make are aluminum and I use very few iron ones. Most of my iron moulds are for round balls and plinking boolits so it doesn't matter what size they come out.
This is one reason I don't believe in cooling any part of my mould when casting. I want my mould to stay at the same temperature at all times even if I have to time the sprue cutting. Even if I stop to dump the sprues back in the pot and flux, the next one or two boolits will be lighter. I have sorted these out and compared the weights and diameters and they are lighter and smaller.
The whole secret to casting is to be very consistant.