How do I control mold temperature?

[Markbo]

I am using a 2 burner Coleman stove. One cast iron pot and flames not all the way to full blast. How can I control the temperature of the mold to know if it is hot enough without being too hot?

If my bullets are coming out 'wrinkled' is it too cold? What would be evidence of too hot?

[docone31]

I use six second count on the sprue.
Less than six seconds and it is too cold, more than six seconds and it is too hot.
That is with a Lee mold, but I bet the others are close.

[Markbo]

I use six second count on the sprue.
Less than six seconds and it is too cold, more than six seconds and it is too hot.
That is with a Lee mold, but I bet the others are close.

Six seconds for what? Over and open flame? How long you can hold your finger on it?

[docone31]

Sorry, Sprue freeze.
If you want to put your finger on an hot mold, have at it.
Hot molds do not feel good.

[Markbo]

I do wish I knew what you were saying. I am sure it's interesting. I have not a clue what sprue freeze it.

Is there anyone else that can explain?

[docone31]

My apologies. A lot of people have helped me here, and I do try to pass the help on.
In short, Sprue Freeze is where the poured sprue becomes solid. The center will pull in and the sprue will turn dull.
I time the freeze. I have found six seconds is the best time for freeze. At six seconds I get no wrinkles, some frosting. Pure lead also likes this timing.
Basically, I count to six. No fancy timepieces involved.
I float the mold, get it hot. I also first soak the molds in mineral spirits first. I do this for two days. I let the mineral spirits dry off, then cast.
Once you do it, you will get the timing and technique down. It doesn't take long. In a while y ou will look forward to it, then it becomes automatic.
I also know how frustrating it can be.
Watching the sprue freeze is fascinating also. It freezes fast, and freezes slow. This is within the six second parameter. I enjoy watching the pull down in the sprue.

[dragonrider]

The top plate on your mold is called the sprue plate. The puddle that forms on this plate when the mold cavities are full is called the "sprue". Immediately after pouring that puddle is liquid, in a short time is will become solid. The time from when you stop pouring to when the "sprue" is solid is the time mentioned above, should be about 6 seconds. I prefer it to be about 10 seconds this just means that I run my molds a little hotter. After some time you will become accostomed to knowing when you mold is hot enough. If boolits are wrinkled generaly means that your mold is cold. Mold temp and melt temp are separate things and should not be confused. Mold temp is the most important of the two in your quest for good boolits.

Decone and I where typing at the same time but some things bear repeating. Good luck. Any more problems just ask more questions.

[cajun shooter]

Markbo, Your equipment is making it hard to keep things the same temperature range. Not the best can look at a flame and tell what temp it is. You need a thermometer for the lead pot. You also need a single plate hot plate from Wally world. The easiest way to cast is to have two of the same mold and alternate them. To control the temp of one mold or two is to keep taking readings of the hot plate surface until it reaches about 650. Keep your lead at 750. A bullet with wrinkles is a sign of being cold. A hot bullet will appear as a light frost over the surface. I tried for many years by placing my molds on the edge of my furnace to no avail as it was not the same each time. The hotplate is the ticket. It is about $20 and so is the thermometer.

[docone31]

On that single heater hot plate from Wally World, You will not be able to melt zinc with it.
It just has enough heat to keep Wheel Weights liquid if the pot is slightly over half full.
Kinda a check and balance on the Zincers.
A synoptizaton on those stinkers!
Zinc will keep on floating.
Another note on that rig, you will have to keep the pot free from crud on the bottom. That will prevent heat from keeping the melt liquid.

[Markbo]

Well I have what I have and that is what I am working with. My digital camera is out of batteries so I can't take pics, but even with the mold laying on top of the 2nd burner at a very high heat there are still wrinkles in the bullets. I AM getting better at pouring better... the flow has to be just right to fill out completely without too much and plugging up the spure hole.

They are about 50/50 sharp corners and rounded corners, but all are wrinkled. I have scrubbed the mold with dishwashing detergent and hot water, mineral spirits then alcohol to get everything off of it and still they are wrinkled. When I pick up some batteries I will take some real lose ups of a couple and post them here for more critique and advice.

[mooman76]

I did boolits over the stove for years in fact I just started using an electric pot a few years ago. Not the best like some say but certainly doable. First are you preheating the mould and what kind is it? I'm assuming you're using Lee since you're working on the cheap. Nothing wrong with that, I did it for years and still am a little on the cheap side and like Lee moulds. Anyway I dip the corner of the mould in the hot lead with the corner of the sprue going down in also to preheat it. Like 20 sec for a single cavity and 24 for a double cavity Lee. I don't like dipping the steel moulds as much bu you can. Those I heat on top of the pot while the pot is warming up.
If you are still having wrincles you probably need to turn up the heat. I prefer to start out a little hot and then turn my heat down some as everything gets going good. Too hot and you will get frosting. Nothing wrong with a little frosting. If it's really too hot the boolits start getting deformed and take way too long to cool. I also prefer to have my temp where the boolits harden in about 3 seconds. Not trying to confuse you but that's just the way I like it and as long as you are getting good fill out all is good. You need to get a good rythem going and not fuss around too much. If you are worried about the boolits turning out good and the fussing over them at the same time as casting, that whole time your mould is cooling back down increasing your bad boolit ratio. Just keep going and you will get the practice and the good boolits will come. You also need to have a good puddle of lead over the sprue hole when casting. It helps with fill out. Just keep practicing and the good boolits will come and you will learn what works best for you.

[lwknight]

In simple terms , mold temperature is regulated by your casting speed. If you want them hotter , cast faster and vice versa.

[BFR454]

Well I have what I have and that is what I am working with. My digital camera is out of batteries so I can't take pics, but even with the mold laying on top of the 2nd burner at a very high heat there are still wrinkles in the bullets. I AM getting better at pouring better... the flow has to be just right to fill out completely without too much and plugging up the spure hole.

They are about 50/50 sharp corners and rounded corners, but all are wrinkled. I have scrubbed the mold with dishwashing detergent and hot water, mineral spirits then alcohol to get everything off of it and still they are wrinkled. When I pick up some batteries I will take some real lose ups of a couple and post them here for more critique and advice.
I also use the double gas burner and had exactly the same problems. And after weeks of frusrtating wrinkled bullets (that were also frosted!), plus trying every cleaning/preperation method under the sun to my moulds, I borrowed a lead thermometer and I found that my alloy was not hot enough and my mould was too hot! (I also found my alloy needed a little more tin as i was using #9 magnum shot as my lead source)
This was in a lead pot I made myself out of 4"dia steel pipe with a 1/2" steel plate as the bottom. I also welded a little 1/2" thick plate on the side to sit my moulds on for the pre-heat whilst the lead is melting. (this works a treat!)
It holds about 22lbs of molten lead, but as I discovered, the gas burner had no problem getting the 22lbs of lead molten, but it could not get the melt hot enough to cast properly.
So I emptied it out half way and have never had a problem with wrinkles since.

[Von Gruff]

I wonder what the difference may be, because I use a gas burner as well and have no problem getting it to suficient heat and maintain it for casting good boolits. I have a regulator on the gas tank that ensures the correct pressure of gas to the burn rings. I only cast with one mold at a time so when the melt is getting up to temp the mold sits on the lid of the pot. I use the same burner for smelting (with a larger capacity pot) and have ended up with 100 lb in it at times, although I do start with 10 - 15 lb first and gradually add to it so I can get a large number of ingots that have the same compisition.

Von Gruff.

[Markbo]

Well I wish I knew. I may just have to get a thermometer. I think my lead is hot enough - in fact when I see gold/purple/blue I know it's too hot and turn the heat down. I have no idea how hot the mold is... no idea at all other than it is resting on an open burner flame.

BTW it is one of the 4 cavity MiHec .454 brass molds. A really nice one I believe. FWIW I can't dip it in the lead... I have a 5 quart dutch oven and I'd have to disconnect the handles for it to fit... otherwise just a small portion of the bottom front would get dipped.

I took some pics with my Gal Pal's camera and have to figure out how to download them. Not sure that will even help at this point.

[geargnasher]

Markbo, you only need to dip the edge of the mould in the lead, if you can get the bottom front edge 1/2" down in the melt with the blocks and handles at a 45* angle to the lead surface, that's all you need. Hold the mould there with the blocks closed for thirty seconds, the mould should be hot enough to start casting.

Now, one of use is VERY confused, and this might explain why Doc's recommendation for a six-second sprue puddle freeze didn't register at all with you. You said this above:

"I AM getting better at pouring better... the flow has to be just right to fill out completely without too much and plugging up the spure hole."

This makes me think you aren't making sprues at all. You should quickly fill the cavity, and continue pouring lead until the little beveled 'well' on top of the sprue plate is full, plus some. When you "cut the sprue" by opening the plate, the sharp edge at the bottom of the spure hole shears off the sprue and leaves a clean base on the boolit. The sprue itself should be about a spoonfull dollop on top of each cavity in the sprue plate, and on all my moulds I run the sprue together on the cavities to I have one big chunk of lead instead of a little Hershie's lead kiss for each cavity.

The reason for pouring all this excess lead on the sprue plate is threefold: One, as the boolit in the cavity cools and solidifies, it also shrinks, and if there isn't excess lead on top to draw from, the boolit will have a shrunken cavity in it's base. Two, having this puddle of extra lead on top of the mould gives us something to watch that will tell us the relative state of the boolit in the cavity, i.e. tells us when we can cut the sprue and open the blocks. Lastly, the extra lead on top of the sprue plate keeps the sprue plate hot and aids in good, sharp bases. You control sprue plate temperature by the size of the sprue puddle and casting speed.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

Well I have what I have and that is what I am working with. My digital camera is out of batteries so I can't take pics, but even with the mold laying on top of the 2nd burner at a very high heat there are still wrinkles in the bullets. I AM getting better at pouring better... the flow has to be just right to fill out completely without too much and plugging up the spure hole. They are about 50/50 sharp corners and rounded corners, but all are wrinkled. I have scrubbed the mold with dishwashing detergent and hot water, mineral spirits then alcohol to get everything off of it and still they are wrinkled. When I pick up some batteries I will take some real lose ups of a couple and post them here for more critique and advice.

I don't understand the statement that I bolded? Are you trying to pour without having any excess sprue? That could be most of your problem.

What are you using for a ladle? I have cast with a Coleman stove and a modified measuring cup for a ladle in the past. A purpose built casting ladle, (either RCBS or Lyman) is well worth the money; when I got my RCBS ladlle most of my problems with filling the mold went away.


Well I wish I knew. I may just have to get a thermometer. I think my lead is hot enough - in fact when I see gold/purple/blue I know it's too hot and turn the heat down. I have no idea how hot the mold is... no idea at all other than it is resting on an open burner flame.

BTW it is one of the 4 cavity MiHec .454 brass molds. A really nice one I believe. FWIW I can't dip it in the lead... I have a 5 quart dutch oven and I'd have to disconnect the handles for it to fit... otherwise just a small portion of the bottom front would get dipped. I took some pics with my Gal Pal's camera and have to figure out how to download them. Not sure that will even help at this point.

I preheat my molds by setting them across the top of my Lee 4-20 pot, (this can be done with your setup too). After the lead becomes liquid, I dip the front of the mold into the alloy. Once the alloy quits sticking tothe mold, it is warm enough to start casting with.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[Mk42gunner]

Slow typist syndrome strikes again, Gear posted while I was trying to figure out how to multi-quote.

He also hit the points I was trying to get.

RObert

[geargnasher]

Slow typist syndrome strikes again, Gear posted while I was trying to figure out how to multi-quote.

He also hit the points I was trying to get.

RObert

Well at least you figured it out, I just did the multiquote thing for the first time earlier today, but did it the hard way! Had to enter the second quote manually by typing [QUOTE=XXX and the post number, copy/pasting the part I wanted to quote, and typing in the ending code.

Looks like we are on the same page with tips for Markbo's issues.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

Gear,

Here is the way I did it, (not saying its right, but it worked).

1. Click on the multi-quote button at the bottom right of each post you want to address.

2. Then click on the qoute button on one of the post's, this will take you to the advanced reply section.

After doing it, it was a lot simpler than doing the wrap quote tags around selected text way.

Robert

[geargnasher]

Slow typist syndrome strikes again, Gear posted while I was trying to figure out how to multi-quote.

He also hit the points I was trying to get.

RObert

so I can comment in between the quotes like right here..............


Gear,

Here is the way I did it, (not saying its right, but it worked).

1. Click on the multi-quote button at the bottom right of each post you want to address.

2. Then click on the qoute button on one of the post's, this will take you to the advanced reply section.

After doing it, it was a lot simpler than doing the wrap quote tags around selected text way.

Robert

Or here..................

Thanks for the tip! It works just like you said. I can type but I'm sure not very computer savvy.

Gear

[Markbo]

OK all you multi-quoters... let's see if I cover it all.

I am ladeling from an off the shelf stainless soup ladle bent to just the right angle to be able to fill off the thin layer of lead (maybe 1/2" - 3/4" in the bottom of the pot) and poud into the sprue holes. I am pouring so that it pours in smoothly (too fast and it plugs up the holes... too slow and I can't fill all 4 without it starting to harden.

I am leaving small puddle on top of the sprue plate. Sometimes they are kisses, sometimes they are connected by a little trail. I pour directly over the pot. I watch as they harden and as soon as it looks like the last one has gone from liquid in the middle to hard, I hit the sprue plate corner with a rubber mallet a few times, turn my hand over and open the mold. A little shake and they all 4 fall out.

Now keep in mind I have this brass mold directly over a burner so while I can't measure the temperature and don't want to have to buy a laser tester, I can't imagine it is not hot. The lead in the pot is all liquid and if it starts to get gold, purple, blue I turn the heat down a tad. I flux it initial melt and keep it stirred up so it doesn't oxidize on top. here are a couple of good pics of 2 of the bullets. All the rest have gone back in the pot. Not sure if you can tell but the one on the left has rounded edges and the one on the right does not... these came out of the same drop.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o10/Markbo_photos/Reloading/Castbullets004.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o10/Markbo_photos/Reloading/Castbullets009.jpg
I didn't take any pics of the bottoms, but they look fine... no holes, no voids, nice sharp little cuts. As you can see they are quite shiney... no frosting. But the surface inconsistencies assure me these are not good shooters.

What do you think?

[mooman76]

Not hot enough. Not saying your lead isn't but it may or may not be either. Your lead is hardening before your mould is filled out showing your mould is not up to heat yet. What kind or where did you get the lead? Usually a blue tint on top is the sigh of a fairly soft or near pure alloy. Soft lead takes more heat. Try leaving the heat up even when the color starts to appear. One in the cavity may fill out better than the other because part of the mould is hotter than the other. Keep casting at a good pase and it will get up hot enough if your lead is hot enough.
Second thing you should have a good puddle of lead on top the sprue hole. It gives a small amount of pressure to the mould casting plus it will shrink down a small amount as it cools and pull in some of the lead on the sprue not solidified yet. Also you said the if you pour too fast it hardens and plugs the sprue hole showing your sprue as well is not hot enough yet.
Also sounds like you need some tin or maybe even antimony added to the melt.

[geargnasher]

If you can't imagine that your mould isn't hot enough, you need to expand your imagination because that is exactly what your problem is. That mould, in casting terms, is ICE COLD. You need to preheat it somehow, even holding it over a burner for a while. If you lead is hardening as you try to ladle it into the mould, the sprue plate is way too cold, also. Your lead may be a bit too cool also, but I doubt it. Overheating your alloy is a bad thing, and won't compensate for the mould being too cold to begin with. If your first sprue is solid by the time you get the last one poured, your mould is too cold. The lead ought to flow right in there with no complaints and give you nice, satin boolits that are fully filled out with no wrinkles, and by the time you cut the sprue, you should still be able to do it with a flick of a gloved thumb if your mould is hot enough. If you're having to open it with a mallet the mould isn't hot enough or you are waiting too long to cut them.

Bottom line, get that mould HOT HOT HOT! Then, maintain a rate of three to four pours a minute and 5-6 seconds from pouring the sprue until it is solid enough to cut (not HARD, just solid). I want you to get it hot enough that you get crystalline frost and a rough, sandblasted look to your boolits and the sprue to take ten seconds to freeze, THEN slow down and let things cool off a bit until you get a nice satin look. After you do that, you'll know how hot hot is for that mould. I'm not kidding.

Gear

[cajun shooter]

Markbo, Your answer to me and the others is wrong. You came on this forum and asked a question. When we responded your answer was well this is what I have and this is what I am working with. Myself and the others have told you several times what your problem is and you answer back that you can't do it this way. If you are unable to purchase what you need then I understand fully as I live on Disability income. When people try to offer help and you can't do the things to fix it then say thanks guys for your answers and I will work towards getting what I need. You can't take a 1951 Chevrolet and bring it to a garage and tell them that this is all I have now tell me how to win the Daytona 500. If I have something to help you out I will gladly give it but don't give me a answer like you did. I started the very same way with a Coleman, cast pot and dipper. I suggest that you keep your hands off the burner knob and just pour lead. Later David

[Markbo]

Mooman-I am leaving a puddle on top of the sprue plate. I thought color in the lead was a bad thing to be avoided. These ingots are from wheel weights with nothing else added. When I said if I poured too fast and it would plug the hole, I meant it would over-flow from one hole a tiny stream to the next and that little bit would harden up in the sprue hole. Strictly bad pouring technique.

Gearnasher - I think my imagination is just fine. It's my experience that is lacking. I am laying the mold on top of an open burner for 5 minutes at a time. What else can I do to get the mold hotter. If I lay the mold into the lead, only the front bottom corner will be in the lead. will that be enough to heat the entire mold? As far as opening the sprue, every video I have watched shows the caster using something to smack the sprue open. If I could push it open with a thumb, wouldn't the lead be too soft? Again.... the bottom of the bullets look textbook good and there is sufficient lead on top of the sprue to suck down into the hole and still be plenty left on top. I guess next I will try having that second burner on full blast and see how that works.

Cajun - My answer is not wrong. My answer is correct - This is what I have to work with, please help me understand what is wrong. I have seen many, many instances of this exact same set up being used so the fact I don't run out and buy a hot plate is not the answer to my problem. The problem is my experience is zero and I am trying to learn. I am not trying to accomplish anything that shouldn't be accomplishable with this equipment, so I am not dismissing ANY response... I am asking questions. So answers, even ones as unhelpful as yours are being considered.
...I suggest that you keep your hands off the burner knob and just pour lead....

If I did that I'd just keep getting what I'm getting and I am trying to get better, but thank you for taking the time to come up with that gem. :p

For everyone - thank you for your input. Unfortunatly I don't know anyone that casts that is near me so I have nobody close to sit and learn from. This site is my primary resource for information and trouble shooting and despite what cajun shooter thinks, I am not dismissing anything. I am trying anything and everything - with the equipment I have to work with. If anyone thinks it can't be done with a Coleman stove and a dutch oven, that has not been posted yet! I'll keep after it.

Many thanks
Mark

[Markbo]

Here is the latest try. I dropped about a dozen pours total. This picture shows left to right from the first one, to the 6th, to the final. As you can see the bullet gets better and better. The last one looks pretty good, I think. I kept the burners on high all the time. The lead was getting very colorful... which I thought was a bad thing...but that poured the best looking bullets.

Of course I also had the mold on the burner the entire time. If I tried back to back pours, they didn't come out well... I'd have to pour, then on the heat for a minute or two, then again. I can certainly see how multiple molds could improve production.

I am going to wait a couple of days to test the hardness and if they are in the 8-10 bnh range I am going to try to sit down and make a few 100 for some test shooting.

Thanks again to everyone!
Mark

[lwknight]

Markbo , those pictures are of COLD mold castings.
Put a little oil on the mold where the handles attach and when you see smoke from it , your up to temperature.

Pre warming the mold just helps us get up temperature faster. I can get a ice cold mold hot just by casting. Of course the first few casts will be redoos but the mold will heat up if I cast fast and steady.
I do prefer to let the mold sit on a $5.95 hot plate while the alloy is melting so that I don't get any redoos at all.

[Suo Gan]

Well I wish I knew. I may just have to get a thermometer. I think my lead is hot enough - in fact when I see gold/purple/blue I know it's too hot and turn the heat down. I have no idea how hot the mold is... no idea at all other than it is resting on an open burner flame.

BTW it is one of the 4 cavity MiHec .454 brass molds. A really nice one I believe. FWIW I can't dip it in the lead... I have a 5 quart dutch oven and I'd have to disconnect the handles for it to fit... otherwise just a small portion of the bottom front would get dipped.

I took some pics with my Gal Pal's camera and have to figure out how to download them. Not sure that will even help at this point.

If you have a 5 quart dutch oven sitting on there, I would be willing to bet your lead alloy in the pot is too cold. Keeping 40 pounds of alloy at 600 degrees is asking a lot of your camping stove I would say. Try the propane torch on top of the melt, and get the alloy with your dipper at the very bottom nearest the flame. Get a piece of thick steel scrap or an old frying pan and set the mold on that over your other burner. You need everything much hotter. Got no idea where you are doing this. Outdoors? I would suggest getting away from drafts and adding a shield around that stove. The surface area of a five quart dutch oven is killing you. But perhaps all it needs is a new generator?
Some people apparently cast with a camp stove and have had luck doing it. But the vast majority I have seen talking about their coleman stove and dutch oven were smelting down ww alloy...a process that does not need the same amount of precise heat control as pouring boolits.

Hope it works out for ya.

EDIT: It sounds like you fixed it. Glad it worked out for ya!

[Echo]

Markbo, we are just trying to help. I agree with the above posts - your stuff is too cold. Have you tried reducing the amount of alloy in your pot? That may allow the smaller amount to lose less heat.
PM me your address...

Milby '53

[Markbo]

Thank you fellahs. I am putting only 2 or 3 2 lb ingots in at a time. I am not even 1/4 way full. Maybe 1"-1.5" in the bottom of the pot. AND it is turning colors - Gold, purple, blue on top. I think that is a sign the melt may actually be too hot, no? Anyway, when I see that I add one more ingot or turn the temp down just a bit. But I am going to try to find a piece of pipe to go around the bottom/up the side of my pot to help hold the heat. That should help.

But having the 2nd burner up full blast and leaving the big mold directly over it, face down and slightly open is apparently doing the trick. It just takes a long time. And believe me... I have been looking for that $5 - $10 hot plate everywhere I go. Ace don't have them. Walgreens/CVS don't have them. WalMart don't have them.

And I DO appreciate everyone's input, I really do. I have a lot to learn so I will keep asking questions.

[cajun shooter]

To Doc31and Markbo, My suggestion to you about the hot plate was not given as a way to melt your lead alloy. I was answering your question on how to keep your mold hot and up to temp. I have two pots for casting, a RCBS bottom pour and a Wagge 8oo watt pot that I ladle pour from. I usually use two molds that are alike to pour my bullets. This way I don't over heat or under heat by the speed of casting. I put my molds on the hot plate and turn on my pot at the same time. When my pot has reached the 750 that I pour at I can pour into the first mold and it will drop perfect bullets because of the preheating process on the hotplate. I then refill that mold and sit it on the hotplate and fill mold two. I then after dumping refill mold two and start over with mold one. "THIS INFORMATION IS GIVEN ONLY AS A WAY TO CAST AND DOES NOT MEAN THAT ANYONE HAS TO BUY ANYTHING" "I ALSO USE CUSTOM BUILT BRASS MOLDS FROM ACCURATE MOLDS " THIS INFO IS ALSO GIVEN FOR THE PURPOSE OF TRYING TO BE INFORMATIVE" PLEASE READ MY POST AS IT WAS WRITTEN BEFORE TELLING ME WHAT IS WRONG WITH IT. Take Care David

[Echo]

Markbo, the fact that your alloy is turning blue & gold (Milby's colors!) &cetera suggests to me that you don't have enough Sn in your alloy. Tin will usually reduce the oxidation when there is enough of it, and I don't mean a bunch - 2% is plenty. What exactly (or as close as you can guess) is your alloy? I'll bet you mentioned it earlier, but I am way too lazy to go looking for it.

I got un-lazy and found that you are using straight WW's. It looks to me as though you are going to have to bite the boolit and find some additional tin to add to your alloy. Probably easiest would be to go to Ace and buy some lead-free solder and add some to your mix. Add 1 oz per three ingots of WW's to get ~2% additional Sn. Tell us how that works out.

[geargnasher]

Mooman-I am leaving a puddle on top of the sprue plate. I thought color in the lead was a bad thing to be avoided. If you are getting a dull, multicolored dross on top of your alloy it probably is too hot, or you need to stop casting and reduce the oxides with some wax or sawdust and skim until shiny. This is especially important when ladle casting, keep your alloy no hotter than necessary for good fillout with a hot mould. Too much heat and the oxidation gets out of control really fast. These ingots are from wheel weights with nothing else added. When I said if I poured too fast and it would plug the hole, I meant it would over-flow from one hole a tiny stream to the next and that little bit would harden up in the sprue hole. Strictly bad pouring technique. No. If your sprue plate was hot enough, the splash wouldn't plug the next hole in the sprue plate that easily.

Gearnasher - I think my imagination is just fine. It's my experience that is lacking. I am laying the mold on top of an open burner for 5 minutes at a time. What else can I do to get the mold hotter. I don't know what to tell you. If you can't get a light frost on boolits cast from WW alloy, your mould is too cold.If I lay the mold into the lead, only the front bottom corner will be in the lead. That is often all it takes with two-cavity iron and aluminum moulds, about thirty seconds with a corner submerged in the melt will do it. The larger moulds usually take more heat, like from a burner or hotplate. will that be enough to heat the entire mold? Maybe not with a large brass one, but if you add more lead to the pot it will work. When lead from the melt will no longer stick to the outside of the blocks, the mould is hot enough. As far as opening the sprue, every video I have watched shows the caster using something to smack the sprue open. That's because most of the people who put out videos of this are doing it wrong. Try it once like I'm telling you, then form your own conclusions. If I could push it open with a thumb, wouldn't the lead be too soft? NO. As long s you keep trying to second guess the good advice that has been given to you here, you will continue to fail. Again.... the bottom of the bullets look textbook good and there is sufficient lead on top of the sprue to suck down into the hole and still be plenty left on top. I guess next I will try having that second burner on full blast and see how that works.

Cajun - My answer is not wrong. My answer is correct - This is what I have to work with, please help me understand what is wrong. I have seen many, many instances of this exact same set up being used so the fact I don't run out and buy a hot plate is not the answer to my problem. The problem is my experience is zero and I am trying to learn. I am not trying to accomplish anything that shouldn't be accomplishable with this equipment, so I am not dismissing ANY response... I am asking questions. So answers, even ones as unhelpful as yours are being considered.

If I did that I'd just keep getting what I'm getting and I am trying to get better, but thank you for taking the time to come up with that gem. :p Actually, my perception is you keep trying to overthink this and do it your way. Try what has been suggested.

For everyone - thank you for your input. Unfortunatly I don't know anyone that casts that is near me so I have nobody close to sit and learn from. This site is my primary resource for information and trouble shooting and despite what cajun shooter thinks, I am not dismissing anything. I am trying anything and everything - with the equipment I have to work with. If anyone thinks it can't be done with a Coleman stove and a dutch oven, that has not been posted yet! I'll keep after it. I've done it, many here do it that way. The propane stove, pot, and ladle is a very effective way to make boolits.

Many thanks
Mark

Markbo, I can't see the picture you refer to from your "successful" casting session, but I'll tell you right now that if you can't pour, cut, dump, close, pour, cut, dump, close....in rapid sequence YOUR MOULD IS TOO COLD.

Please read my last post again. I'm not lying to you, I'm not trying to fool you, and I really wish you'd turn off your "filter" and at least TRY what I suggested about casting temp and sprue-cutting temp. If you'd find a way to cast fast and hot, THREE POURS A MINUTE MINIMUM, until you get boolits so frosty they look like lava rock and the spure takes ten seconds to set, you will know what "too hot" is. You need to know what too hot is because, believe me, you have no clue yet. Once you get "too hot" with your mould, you can slow your casting pace until you get to "just right", where you will be casting keepers. The knowledge of "too hot" and "too cold" a mould is and how to judge it is probably the most important lesson you can learn, because once you get it, you can pick up any mould, any sized, made of any material, and figure it out quickly. You will also learn by the way the sprue sets when you need to begin to speed up or slow down in SMALL increments to keep your boolits consistent and the mould temp in the "sweet spot". If things are going smoothly, you should be able to cast nearly 200 boolits in 15 minutes. This rate isn't an ego contest, it's an indication of what you should be able to do with a four-cavity mold and alloy of the correct temperature. BTW that's over four pounds of lead with the mould you're using, so having 10-15 lbs in the pot is a good idea. Having to preheat the mould between pours means you aren't casting fast enough.

Gear

[Markbo]

I must be coming off completely wrong. I am not ignoring advice or telling anyone that they are giving me bad advice or saying anyone doesn't know what they are saying. And I will ALWAYS ask again (you may call it second guess) when something doesn't make sense. In my extremely short time trying to cast bullets I have to whack that sprue plate to get it open. It is a 4 bullet mold. I will try to push it open with my thumb, but again, I have never seen or even heard of that - anywhere, ever from anyone except from gearnasher. So please excuse me if I second guess that... but I will try it... be sure of that.

What I am saying - or trying to anyway - is that I am asking questions AND referring to previous advice I have read on this forum IF it is different than what any one of you are saying. If I can't ask questions, then I will just stumble along and take years to learn instead of learning from those that have been there and done that already. I may very well be overthinking it (I've been accused of that before), but I am not ignoring anything just to do it my way. That would be a helluva lot less time on this forum if I were doing that. ;)

On the other hand, everything I am telling you is true and correct... if I pour too fast, the lead overflows and a tiny bit will go into the next sprue hole and cover it over, not allowing me to pour into that hole. Cold, warm, hot doesn't seem to matter that I have seen as yet.

The fluffy dross I got out is not all colorful. The dross looks like it looks in the pictures... flat gray with just a small trail of brighter material at top. All the colors I spoke of come when the dross is removed and it forms a very thin, very shiney surface. Besides in my "Success" response I think it clearly shows that I did get my mold hot enough as the bullets (eventually) turned out great. They are a little softer than I thought they would be (8 BNH), but I want to make some up and shoot them. Heck they may just shoot great just like they are, who knows?

After that maybe I can try adding 2% tin to get my mix a touch harder, as well as trying to fold that dross back in first. In the beginning I am trying to do/learn a lot of things at once, not the least of which is what hardness am I getting because there is no way I know for absolute certain what my alloy is - especially since I have removed several large ladels full of something nobody can positively identify. A good thermometer would probably help a lot and clarify what temp I am at when these different things happen.

Part science, part craft and part alchemy. The science I question, the craft I will learn by doing and the alchemy for the moment at least is just guessing.

Thank you again one and all.

[lwknight]

Markbo, you really need a thermometer till you learn exactly what to look for in alloy indications.
Once you know that your alloy is 650-700 degrees , you can work on getting the mold temp right.
Till then its just a guessing game back and forth. The path to consistency starts with eliminating variables.

For the overflow freezing up on the nex hole, it takes practice to fill and puddle a cavity and quickly move to the next to line it up with the stream. Once the spru plate is sure enough good and hot , you can move at a more even rate. When its cold you almost have to snap to the next hole.

[swampsavage]

Markbo,

I'm kinda new to casting, as well, and what works best for me is to get a good rhythm going. The first few bullets I drop, sometimes as many as a dozen, aren't keepers even though I pre-heat the mold on top of the pot. Once I get good results I keep pouring, counting, dropping 'till it's time for a break. I can usually crank out 30 or 40 by that time. Most of my moulds are Lyman single and double cavity.

The beauty of casting boolits is nothing is wasted. The rejects just go back in the pot. I've read through all of the replies and you're getting plenty of good advice. Success doesn't usually come quickly and practice is the key. Once you start getting good results you'll continue to do so.

[geargnasher]

I must be coming off completely wrong. I am not ignoring advice or telling anyone that they are giving me bad advice or saying anyone doesn't know what they are saying. And I will ALWAYS ask again (you may call it second guess) when something doesn't make sense. In my extremely short time trying to cast bullets I have to whack that sprue plate to get it open. That's because the lead has cooled too much by the time you try to open it. If you have to beat it open, the lead is too hard. Antimonial alloys (except for eutectic ones or those near so) have a "slush" state between fully liquid and fully solid. The idea here is to cut the sprue after the boolit has sucked in what it needs, but before the sprue has fully set. If your mould and sprue plate are hot enough to allow you to pour all four cavities and flick the sprue plate before all the sprues are fully set, they are easy to cut and no beating required. This is also a good way to tell if the mould is hot enough for good casting. Start pouring at the hinge end of the sprue plate and work toward the opposite end, this will give you more leverage on the first boolit poured, which will have a harder sprue than the rest. If you can't open it by hand, you waited too long. If you have torn looking craters in the base of your boolits and the sprues are still runny, you cut them too soon. This is really an exercise in making sure your mould is hot enough.It is a 4 bullet mold. I will try to push it open with my thumb, but again, I have never seen or even heard of that - anywhere, ever from anyone except from gearnasher. I learned it here. Cuts down on mould abuse and forces one to run the moulds at a high enough temp. So please excuse me if I second guess that... but I will try it... be sure of that. Lots of things about this hobby don't make sense at first. I'm asking you to suspend your disbelief until you try what has been suggested.

What I am saying - or trying to anyway - is that I am asking questions AND referring to previous advice I have read on this forum IF it is different than what any one of you are saying. If I can't ask questions, then I will just stumble along and take years to learn instead of learning from those that have been there and done that already. I may very well be overthinking it (I've been accused of that before), but I am not ignoring anything just to do it my way. That would be a helluva lot less time on this forum if I were doing that. ;)

On the other hand, everything I am telling you is true and correct... if I pour too fast, the lead overflows and a tiny bit will go into the next sprue hole and cover it over, not allowing me to pour into that hole. Cold, warm, hot doesn't seem to matter that I have seen as yet. I never said or implied it wasn't true, I said you were wrong about it being bad technique. You think you're being messy and spilling lead into the next hole, but I'm saying it shouldn't matter about the splatter because, if the sprue plate is hot enough, you can pour lead right over it and it will melt right in and fall through. If the sprue plate is too cold, the lead you pour over the "plug" you spilled won't have enough heat to remelt it.

The fluffy dross I got out is not all colorful. The dross looks like it looks in the pictures... flat gray with just a small trail of brighter material at top. All the colors I spoke of come when the dross is removed and it forms a very thin, very shiney surface. Besides in my "Success" response I think it clearly shows that I did get my mold hot enough as the bullets (eventually) turned out great. I dont' know what went wrong, but I still don't see any pictures or links to photo sites in your posts. I'd love to see how they turned out. They are a little softer than I thought they would be (8 BNH), Do you know about age-hardening? If you don't I'll gladly explain and offer you a link to a really good explanation by someone else if I can find it. but I want to make some up and shoot them. Heck they may just shoot great just like they are, who knows?

After that maybe I can try adding 2% tin to get my mix a touch harder, as well as trying to fold that dross back in first. First, adding tin to your mix won't make it much harder at all. Second, the dross in you pot is oxidized alloy, mostly from what tin you have, as well as antimony and lead oxides. Adding tin will not have any real effect on the dross except to make it worse, you need to REDUCE the oxides back in with some wax or sawdust. Hydrocarbons will turn most of that dross back into usable metal. Tin does form a protective oxide layer when pouring the lead at temperatures below 750*, which is its primary benifit to fillout, but this doesn't have a very significant effect on the surface drossing in your pot.In the beginning I am trying to do/learn a lot of things at once, not the least of which is what hardness am I getting because there is no way I know for absolute certain what my alloy is - especially since I have removed several large ladels full of something nobody can positively identify. It was probably tin oxide you removed, but I can't say for sure not having seen it.A good thermometer would probably help a lot and clarify what temp I am at when these different things happen. Might help some to eliminate one variable (pot temp) but you can tell from the appearance of the pot surface and how it behaves whether it is at the right temp or not. If it will stay relatively shiny for a few minutes after skimming it shouldn't be too hot.

Part science, part craft and part alchemy. The science I question, the craft I will learn by doing and the alchemy for the moment at least is just guessing. Actually, I would argue that boolit casting is pure science, it is making boolit LUBE that is a black art! If casting seems like alchemy it's only because you haven't shined a light in all of it's dark corners yet.

Thank you again one and all.

How about those pics? Have you tried this again? I would love to see you get some really frosty boolits, then we'll know if it's a temp problem or zink contamination.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

Markbo,

I just had a really off the wall thought about your problem. Since you are having problems with getting the mold up to temp, even with heating the mold over the second burner on your coleman stove, (Shudder) Is the generator working properly on your stove? I had one one time that would barely boil water on the primary burner if the second one was lit.

Matter of fact, most of the lead I melted over a coleman was done with one of the $12 propane adapters, and small bottle of propane.

If you can form a heat shield around your melting pot with an old three pound (metal) coffee can, turn the heat up all the way, and leave the second burner off.

I saw the picture of your "fluffy dross," I have absolutely no idea what it was, but I have never seen anything like that come out of my lead pot. I would try a new batch of alloy, just to eleminate variables.

Then do as Gear is suggesting, cast fast. Cut the sprue as soon as it solidifies and refill the mold. Don't worry about the appearane of the boolits untill you have filled the mold at least ten times. Once you start casting there should be no reason to have to hold the mold over a flame, the molten alloy will transfer heat better. You may have to make several cycles to get the mold up to temp, but once you do, it will put out decent boolits every time.

I wish you were closer, sometimes all it takes is to see a task done in person and it all becomes clear.

Robert

[geargnasher]

If I had the equipment and savvy, I'd love to put up a series of short videos on Youtube demonstrating some of the techniques I talk about. Some things are indeed hard to explain and a 30 second video could take the place of an entire novel. The pace is important once the mould is up to temp, and the time it takes the sprue to freeze is the main indicator of whether you need to step it up, slow down, or maintain. I find my casting pace to be a low-amplitude sine wave, slightly speeding up until an extra half-second is necessary for the sprue to partially solidify, then gradually slowing down the whole process until a half-second under ideal time. Sounds complicated but after a few hundred pours it's automatic, like keeping your car in the middle of the lane and at constant speed while driving.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Hey, MK42, good idea. Markbo, I just checked and saw you're in Houston. That's only 4-1/2 hours from here. Maybe we can hook up some time and I can show you in person some of the things I recommended, and maybe get to the bottom of what's going on if something is out of the ordinary like contaminated alloy. There are probably other casters in the Houston area who may be willing to help you also, you might put out a help request in the Castboolits section.

Gear

[Markbo]

Gear I actually come out that way occassionally during hunting season. If I do this year I will definitely contact you. In the meantime, here is a link to my Photobucket pics, you can see for yourself:
http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o10/Markbo_photos/Reloading/

Oh and I already know.... that bullet is not one of the keepers... it was a throwback. I just put it in there to compare the color.

[oneokie]

Markbo, is your ladle large enough that you can pour all 4 cavities with one ladle full of alloy?

[John Boy]

How can I control the temperature of the mold to know if it is hot enough without being too hot?
Markbo, there are several variables to the answer and you have been given the majority of them.
* How long it takes the sprue puddle to frost (Sprue freeze)
This is dependent on: the size of the mold - what metal it is made of - single or gang mold - alloy and the weight of the bullet (s) you are casting
* Temperature of the melt in the pot.
A must is a thermometer and hold the temperature within a 10 degree variance. Here's the thermometer that RCBS - Lyman and Brownell sells with their name on it at a higher price ... Tel-Tru Model: LT225R (http://www.teltru.com/p-272-big-green-egg-grill-dome-kamado-replacement-thermometer-lt225r-2001000-degrees-f.aspx) Buy it!

As for the number of seconds for the sprue puddle to frost, the number can vary from 3 sec @ 800F for 500+gr bullets to
In order to cast a good bullet it will take between 7 to 12 seconds for the sprue to set up -per Paul Jones, renowned mold maker. My number is 5 - 8 sec depending on the size of the mold - alloy - pot temperature and weight of the bullet to drop them within a 0.5gr variance ... while holding the pot temperature within a 10 degree variance

And remember ... different molds like different temperatures to cast filled out bullets with no frost. Suggestion: Start at 680 F and run the melt temperature up in 10 degree increments to the temperature where the bullets fill out with no frost ... THEN count the seconds for how long it takes the sprue puddle to frost. Hold the pot temperature there - keep watching the temperature variance and of course, keep the seconds constant

Plus keep your casting rhythm THE SAME. Here's a good read about this ... http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm

[Bambeno]

Hello Markbo.
If you have or know someone with a turkey fryer burner try heating your 5qt pot on it. I bet your melt temp is too low. I don't preheat my moulds. I just cast 5 or 6 drops in quick succession to get it up to temp then cast away at a steady pace. I also do not use a mallet to cut sprues. I wear heavy welding gloves and open the sprue plate by hand after the sprues have frosted over good. I cast much smoother this way plus I am not beating on my moulds that way. If you don't have a thermometer and you use a turkey fryer be carefull about over heating your melt. It should be plenty hot with the burner turned down fairly low after you get it fully melted.
Wish you good casting.

Just reread where you said you were using a soup ladle to pour with, for the small investment cost a decent ladle like http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=283142 would probably help in filling out your bullets better. It could be that your pouring slow enough that your pour is getting too cool and not letting your mould fill out as it should.

[Markbo]

Markbo, is your ladle large enough that you can pour all 4 cavities with one ladle full of alloy?

Yes. I am using an off the shelf SS soup ladel. I can get just enough for all 4 bullets just because the of the shallowness of the amount of melt in the pot. No more than that. I have found a pour rate that kind of looks like it is sucking the lead in if that makes sense. Slower and it is dribbling in and faster and it might over flow. By the time I get from the 1st to 4th, the spure on the 1st is solid and the 4th takes about +/- 6 seconds.

I will read the links and will try to push the sprue by hand instead of my rubber (not wooden) mallet

[old turtle]

It looks like the mold is too cold. However could you have zinc or some other contaminates in the lead. As you talked about try to get some good wheel weight lead that you are sure has no problems. With iron molds it takes me sometimes 20 to 30 boolits to get complete fill out. the larger diam. and shorter boolits should cast a little easier than long, narrow boolits but it sometimes depends on the mold. A large mold holds the heat but sometimes takes a while to warm up. But then again what do I know, because if I were all knowing I would shoot 1/4 inch groups with perfect boolits. Not much chance of that.

[oneokie]

Yes. I am using an off the shelf SS soup ladel. I can get just enough for all 4 bullets just because the of the shallowness of the amount of melt in the pot. No more than that. I have found a pour rate that kind of looks like it is sucking the lead in if that makes sense. Slower and it is dribbling in and faster and it might over flow. By the time I get from the 1st to 4th, the spure on the 1st is solid and the 4th takes about +/- 6 seconds.

I will read the links and will try to push the sprue by hand instead of my rubber (not wooden) mallet

Does your soup ladle have a pouring spout on it? Something to channel the alloy into a small stream? That might help with your pouring speed, and help control overflow.

[HardColt]

Try running some wrinkled bullets as rejects to be remelted later to bring your mould temperature ideal for casting good bullets. I usually do this when time is a factor and I can not pre-hear my mould. It takes me about 3-4 sets of rejected bullets on a 230gr. 45 acp, 6 cavity mould from Lee.

[Markbo]

Does your soup ladle have a pouring spout on it? Something to channel the alloy into a small stream? That might help with your pouring speed, and help control overflow.

Yessir... it's got a litle "V" on one side that I pour out of... really helps my aim. :grin:

Thanks Hardcolt... I'll keep that in mind.