Anybody shooting lead in a Para 45?

[sleeper1428]

I have a Para-Ordnance 745 SSP and have been having trouble getting a boolit/powder combination that will work consistently as far as shooting to POA. To this point I've tried the RCBS 230gr RN with both 4.5 and 5.0 gr Bullseye in an attempt to try to come fairly close to factory jacketed RN specs. I've also tried the SAECO 230gr TC with the same powder and charges. All seem to want to shoot low and this occurs regardless of whether I'm shooting offhand or from a pistol rest. Since the Para has only windage adjustable rear sights I've tried using different sight pictures and have discovered that the only way I can consistently get shots into the bull is a hold with the front dot right on the upper edge of the bull when the rear and front dots are aligned. All my testing so far has been at 15 yards.

Has anyone else had any experience shooting lead in a Para and if so what have you found to be a good boolit/powder combination? Any assistance and suggestions would be welcome. Oh, by the way, while shooting this pistol, I've tried to be very careful to employ proper trigger release, i.e. a slow, deliberate squeeze and avoidance of jerking which would, of course, tend to pull shots low. That was my first thought, that I was unconsciously jerking the trigger, but after several hundred rounds I do believe that the low grouping is not related to that problem. Plus the fact that I've been shooting a Colt 1911 Gov Mod 80 for over 20 years and have never had this problem. I'm beginning to think that I may have to have either a fully adjustable rear sight installed or perhaps a shorter front sight. I've called Para and they of course told me that they recommend using only commercial ammo and that they discourage the use of lead. Again, any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

sleeper1428

[missionary5155]

Good morning
How tall is the front sight ?
You could try a slower powder like Unique or Acc#5. The actual dwell time in the barrel is but a few millions of a second slower but that should give a bit of barrel lift. 5.5 to about 6.5 of Unique should give near the same velocity and still funtion the action. You can go with more but then your again going to be impacting lower on the target.

[casterofboolits]

I use a 185 grn H&G 68. This is out of an old style mould that produced a 200 grn boolit with a .060 bevel base. I milled .045 off the top of the mould to get the 185 grn. I also used H&G 200 grain SWC's with no real change in POI.

This was my primary IPSC round and shot quite well in my P-14.

Sounds like you need to replace your sights. I put a set of Heinie fixed sights on my P-14.

[KYCaster]

I've put many thousands of rounds through my P14 shooting in USPSA Limited division and can't recall ever touching the sights after initial sight in.

175SWC, 185SWC, 200SWC, 200RN, 225TC, 230RN, 255RF (all of them loaded to 170-180 PF)....none of them change 25 yd. POI enough to worry about.

If it were mine I'd paint the sights black and file the front sight to get the POI where it should be. If you want to keep those pesky little dots I guess you'll have to replace the sights.

Jerry

[98Redline]

I've put many thousands of rounds through my P14 shooting in USPSA Limited division and can't recall ever touching the sights after initial sight in.

175SWC, 185SWC, 200SWC, 200RN, 225TC, 230RN, 255RF (all of them loaded to 170-180 PF)....none of them change 25 yd. POI enough to worry about.

If it were mine I'd paint the sights black and file the front sight to get the POI where it should be. If you want to keep those pesky little dots I guess you'll have to replace the sights.

Jerry

Same here. P-14 shooting IPSC Limited and no adjustment in the sights for various loads (230gr ball all the way down to 155gr)

I prefer the 185 SWC loaded over 5.6gr of W231 for Major PF with minimal recoil.

I would say that new sights or a file are your best options.

[Larry Gibson]

I've a P14 with the luminous capsule dots in the sights. It also hits low and is apparently zeroed to the dot's sight alignment. I have to hold the top of the dot level with the top of the rear sight to get a POI to POA at 25 yards with just about any load using 195 - 230 bullets. Filing the front sight probably will ruin it. I'll probably just replace the front sight with a plain blade and file it to correct zero. Other than this, so for I've found the P14 to be an excellent pistol.

Larry Gibson

[mike in co]

I've a P14 with the luminous capsule dots in the sights. It also hits low and is apparently zeroed to the dot's sight alignment. I have to hold the top of the dot level with the top of the rear sight to get a POI to POA at 25 yards with just about any load using 195 - 230 bullets. Filing the front sight probably will ruin it. I'll probably just replace the front sight with a plain blade and file it to correct zero. Other than this, so for I've found the P14 to be an excellent pistol.

Larry Gibson

may i ask are you gentlemen shooting a 6 o clock hold ??

guess what..when i got my new para gi , i held 6 o clock ....and the gun shot low.....

hmmmm point low and it goes low...
call para and they say..no to a 6 o clock hold...hold center..hit center.....yep it works...i only shoot 230 rn lead....no issues.

[gray wolf]

So you hold on the top of your bull---well how big is the bull ?
How low are you shooting with a dead on hold ?
and what ammo have you shot that shoots POA ? if any
If factory ball shoots POA then you should be able to match it.

I must have 5-6 loads that will shoot lead POA at 10-15-25 yards.
200 or 225 lead bullets, 4-4.1-4.2-4.3 of B/E and the same with tite group.
I would shoot some factory and confirm that it shoots low, also have someone else try the
pistol. If Fact. shoots point of aim it should not be hard to shoot lead to POA.
If it's not you jerking the pistol down and it shoots ball low at 15 yards then it's back to the maker for a new site or you replace it. The ball ammo will tell the story also that another shooter confirms it shoots low.

Sam

[sleeper1428]

Missionary5155 - Since I have both Unique and AAC #5 available, I will probably try both after I've done the experimentation mentioned by Sam, i.e., factory ball ammo and another shooter to see if either change makes a difference.

Jerry - The sights on my SSP are of the fiber optic variety and thus are probably not going to be amenable to filing.

Mike - When I called Para I also was told that I needed to hold center rather than use a 6 o'clock hold. I think if you'll reread my initial message you'll see that I'm now holding to the upper edge of the bullseye in order to get hits in the center of the bull.

Sam - Your suggestions are precisely what I had plan on doing later this week. It's going to be strange buying factory loads since I don't think I've bought ammo for my 45 ACP for over 20 years!! And I will also do as you suggested and have someone else, probably my brother, shoot the pistol and see if he has the same problem with low hits. And if the factory ammo shoots to POA, I'll also try some Tite Group since I think I have almost a pound of it stored on a shelf in my reloading bench.

Thanks to everyone who replied. It's good to know that others have been able to successfully shoot lead in their Para-Ordnance pistols. I was beginning to think that if this was something that was common with the Para I might have to just get rid of it and look for a replacement, possibly the Taurus 45 which has gotten some good reviews.

sleeper1428

[KYCaster]

Sleeper, I understand your frustration. My Para has an adjustable rear sight. I don't use fiber optic or any of the various colored dot/insert/outline sights available, so my comments may not apply to your situation.

If you can't regulate the sights on your gun, you have three options available...accept the situation and apply Kentucky windage, alter the existing sights or replace the sights.

Considering my limited experience...one Para and three Taurus handguns, I'd work with the Para and forget the Taurus.

Jerry

[gray wolf]

I know pistols but I don't know to much about Paras ( your pistol )
Is it the one that is double and single action ? I ask because if it is the one with the long trigger pull for the first shot and then the hammer stays back like a regular 1911.
The ones I have seen have a very hard trigger pull and that alone can make you shoot low.
Trigger pull is very much involved in shooting low, and hard to detect by the shooter.
If this is not your situation then forget all of the above.
Just thinking out loud.

Sam

[475/480]

I have a Para 7.45 SS 45 Auto for my CCW gun.
It shoots the Mihec #68 mould (200gr SWC) to the front dot site with 9.0 gr -AA7.
Para's shoot to the front DOT not the top of the front sight like revolvers.


Sean

[sleeper1428]

Sam - My Para is the 745 SSP single stack, single action so a long and possibly heavy trigger pull on the first shot is not a consideration. Oh, and you asked earlier about the size of my target's bullseye. The target I'm using - downloaded from the 'Net - has a 2" diameter bullseye.

Sean - As I noted in my earlier postings, I started out using a 6 o'clock hold which is what I'd always used with my Colt Gov. Model 80 (fixed sights). But when I saw that all my shots were going 'way low, I switched to putting the front dot right on the bullseye. I should note that I later called Para and they confirmed that their pistols were set up to shoot to POA with the front dot on the center of the target rather than at the 6 0'clock hold. But even though holding to the center of the bull raised the POI, it didn't raise it sufficiently to bring it to POA. My next steps are going to be 1) use some factory loads to see if they will shoot to POA and also 2) have someone else shoot the pistol to see if they have the same problem. And finally, I'm going to try some other powders to see if that might cure the problem. As a last resort, I'll probably go with an adjustable rear sight - Brownells lists a couple of them although both are out of stock at the present time.

Again, thanks to all who have offered suggestions and comments.

sleeper1428

[Larry Gibson]

may i ask are you gentlemen shooting a 6 o clock hold ??

guess what..when i got my new para gi , i held 6 o clock ....and the gun shot low.....

hmmmm point low and it goes low...
call para and they say..no to a 6 o clock hold...hold center..hit center.....yep it works...i only shoot 230 rn lead....no issues.

Mike

As I stated; POI is lower than point of aim. Doesn't matter if I aim at 6 o'clock, center or where ever. With correct sight alignment the POI is 1 - 2" low at 25 yards. Yes, I can "aim center" on a B27 target and 25 yards and generally hit the center of the target. However the POI is still lower than the point of aim which is the point.

Larry Gibson

[sleeper1428]

Mike

As I stated; POI is lower than point of aim. Doesn't matter if I aim at 6 o'clock, center or where ever. With correct sight alignment the POI is 1 - 2" low at 25 yards. Yes, I can "aim center" on a B27 target and 25 yards and generally hit the center of the target. However the POI is still lower than the point of aim which is the point.

Larry Gibson

Larry - You've described precisely the problem I'm having! With a 6 o'clock hold the POI is at about 1.5-2" low and this discrepancy is the same with a center of bull hold. And as I said in one of my messages, only when I hold with the front dot on the upper edge of a 2" bull does my POI come into the center of the bull. So just as you've described, the POI appears to be about 1-2.5" below POA regardless of what boolit/powder combination I'm using. Still have to do some testing with factory loads and with another person firing the pistol but from what you've said, it would appear that I'm not alone in my results with the Para.

sleeper1428