ar15 reloading question

[maverick0379]

I have reloaded tons of 223 for my single shot h&r. Never had any problems. I pull the trigger it goes boom and I get less than a 1/2" group at 100yrds. Today I am at the range to pick up my usual jug of brass and to shoot my brand new dpms ar. I load the first mag with 20 rounds of factory remington green box and fire away. All 20 on paper no problems. Insert second mag full of reloads pull back charging handle, close the bolt then sit the gun on the bench and proceed to do some bull****ting. I pick up the gun and it will not fire. It is in battery and I cannot render it safe. I can't pull back the charging handle. The dam thig is stuck also can't take it apart. Luckly my local gunsmith has not left for the day and after 20 minutes him and a dnr agent get the dam round out. *** did I do wrong..... Should I buy a set of the evil small base dies that everyone looks down on...I would rather not have this problem again

[NuJudge]

My guess is that you used cases fired in the H&R to shoot in your AR. The H&R, even with a tight chamber, the action springs a bit on firing, leaving the case with long headspace.

I use small base dies on cases that have been abused in previous firings. I also use a case gauge. If the first sizing does not get them to pass the gauge (or freely chamber in my rifle), I size them a second time.

[scb]

I too would recommend a small base die. If you don't like the thought of using the SB die on the cases for your H&R you'll have to keep them segregated. As far as I'm concerned a SB die is required to load reliable ammo for semi-autos. I've not had need of them but I believe L.E. Wilson makes gages that will tell you if your loaded rounds will chamber.

[btroj]

In my years of shooting service rifle for NRA high-power I never used small base dies.
You might want to get a tool for measuring head to shoulder length. The shoulder may need to be pushed back more for the dpms. You also need to watch overall length with some bullets. In my rifle I can load Hornady 52 btph to feed thru the magazine but the still jam hard into the rifling not allowing the bolt to fully go knot battery and it won't fire.

I use the Stoney point tool for measuring a fired case from base to shoulder. Then adjust my dies to push it back a couple of thou. Never had trouble doing it this way, never a small based die was used.

[monadnock#5]

Years ago an old timer overheard an acquaintance tell me that "you have to use small base dies or your ammo won't work in your M1A!". When the acquaintance moved on the old timer told me "don't buy small base dies until you've used your standard dies and proven that they don't work". It was, and still is good advise.

+1 on the L.E. Wilson case gauge though. They're cheap insurance. Comparatively speaking of course.

[home in oz]

makes sense one reload would not work in semi-auto....

[btroj]

I don't own or need a wilson case guage. My chamber tells me all I need to know. I still say to get a tool to measure the shoulder location. My guess is that it not the same for both rifles. Also check oal length to make sure the throat on the HR is not longer.
A case gauge will not twill you these things. A case gauge may also have you setting the shoulder back way more than required leading to shorter case life due to stretching.
The rifle is telling you something, now find out what it is.

[Doc Highwall]

I agree with btroj I too have loaded 1000's of rounds for service rifle and have never used small base dies they are only good when you are loading for many guns to function in but the draw back is case life and accuracy goes down. I use the Stony Point now owned by Hornady and highly recommend them, they make the old smoke the neck and shoulder with a candle seem like cave man tools. Do your self a favor and read up on the Hornady OAL / Head-space tool and it's uses and you will realize how great of a tool it is.

[GabbyM]

First I'm about positive your rifle is a 223 Rem chamber not a 5.56 NATO.

I shot an AR 5.56mm NATO for years with standard dies. When I got a new AR with a 223 chamber I discovered my old RCBS size die was worn to the point it would not size military surplus cases down enough for the 223 REM chamber. So I bought a new die. Not a small base just a new die. It's getting old blown out brass from some M-249 machine gun into shape that's tough. You may need a small base die for reconditioning range scavenged brass.

[David2011]

Maverick,

I believe in using case gages. Even for loading something as "simple" as .40 S&W I find it useful. All of my brass goes through a Magma Case Master Jr. which has a Dillon carbide die modified for push through sizing so every piece of brass should be perfect, right? All of my .40 is loaded on the same press so I expect it to all be the same. I case gage every round that is going to a match and invariably I'll find anywhere from one to five rounds out of every 500 is tight in the gage. They always fit in the barrel but they don't get used in a match. I respectfully disagree, on the basis of my personal excellent record of reliability that a barrel will tell you everything. It will tell you a lot but not when a load is just a little bigger than most but will still barely fit. I value reliability far above accuracy. If I shoot a C instead of an A on a USPSA target that's a small point penalty. If I have to clear a jam it's a HUGE time penalty.

David

[btroj]

Yes David a case guage is a good idea for a pistol. And I am sure it helps scores in the speed pistol events.
But this is a rifle, a whole different beast. In my years of shooting high-power I never talked to a competitor whomised a case gauge. We set our dies to size the case properly for our chamber and we went with it. I did not a shoot a single alibi due to ammo. Ever.
A case vuage tells you the loaded round is of a minimum size. But is that the best for this particular rifle? Who knows. I will always listen to what my rifle is telling me. The chamber is what I want to fit, not a gauge set to some arbitrary size by a manufacturer.
The stony point tool is worth it's weight in gold for rifle shooter in my opinion. It let's me know how much I am setting back the shoulder for my rifle. I don't over size my cases this way.

[ironhead7544]

For cases that havent been fired in the rifle, I use the small base dies. You dont need the problem you had at the range. I have had some 223 and 308 used brass that needed to be sized in the standard die and then in the SB die in order to work in a rifle. You also want to check the OAL and make sure the bullet was not jammed into the rifling. A lot depends on the chamber. You might need a SB die. Just my .02.

[akajun]

Lets go through this step by step. First lets get your gun safe.

Drive out the two assembly pins and seperate the two halves of the reciever. Now see if you can get the bolt carrier group out. If you can great, if not you may be able to manipulate it with a screwdriver, of by tapping a cleaning rod on top of the round while pulling back on the charging handle.

Things to check for, you may have a blown out primer caught under the trigger, somtimes this will lock up a gun. Also a friend recently brought a gun to me in the same condition. Turns out he had not staked the castle nut on his stock, and it has wiggled out enought to allow the plunger and spring to come out and wedge themselves in the bcg and upper reciever.

As far as small base dies, you probably dont need them for an ar. Clean your chamber with the proper chamber brush, then check the oal length on your cases, then on your rounds. Also check the chamber for a broken off case neck.

[Larry Gibson]

Suggest you get the RCBS X-Die for FL sizing. Properly set up (not difficult, just follow the directions) in your press it will properly size the cases and you will not have to trim them again. You will also get excellent case life with such cases fired in your AR. You do not need the SB die, get the regular X-Die.

I also suggest adjust your die so the cases just chamber and extract easily (no primer or load in them yet when testing). I've a case gauge and seldom use it.

Larry Gibson

[NWFLYJ]

Suggest you get the RCBS X-Die for FL sizing. Properly set up (not difficult, just follow the directions) in your press it will properly size the cases and you will not have to trim them again. You will also get excellent case life with such cases fired in your AR. You do not need the SB die, get the regular X-Die.

I also suggest adjust your die so the cases just chamber and extract easily (no primer or load in them yet when testing). I've a case gauge and seldom use it.

Larry Gibson

+1 I have a DPMS upper on my AR, I run used brass from other various other .223 rifles. I have never had a feeding or stuck case issue using the process that Larry laid out above. Here is some food for thought though. Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1lyMyejpI

[mike in co]

in case it was not said , or pushed hard enough....you need to seperate the brass for the two rifles...yes you can load ammo that will work in both, but it willnot be ideal in eaither.

seperate/size/ and load for each rifle.........

generic ammo will give generic results.


mike in co

[maverick0379]

Thanks everyone for the advice. This is my first ar style rifle

Gabby my dpms lite 16 is chambered in 556 nato.

I just ordered a set of small base rcbs x dies. It seems that most of you don't like the small base die because of brass life. I collet atleast 400 FREE 223/556 cases every weeked so I don't care about brass life. I will load seperatly for my ar and h&r.

[Moonie]

I don't use small base dies in my AR. Did you clean the chamber well before shooting? If not then you can have this kind of issue as well due to what is left in the chamber after manufacture.

To get the case out, pull down on the charging handle while bumping the butt of the rifle on the ground.

Once you have the weapon safe be sure you clean the barrel very well and make sure the BCG is lubed up real well.

I use 2 parts transmission fluid, one part 20-50W synthetic motor oil and one part STP oil treatment. It lubes very well and doesn't migrate.

Too little lube can and will cause your issue, as will a dirty chamber. There are other things that can also cause this problem but I would look at those first.

Don't ask me how I know :D

[nicholst55]

You need to learn the 'pogo.' Grasp the charging handle with one hand, and the small of the stock with the other. Smack the butt smartly on the top of the bench while exerting downwards force on the charging handle. The bolt will almost always open, and no, you won't damage anything.

I too, have never needed a small base die for any of the thousands of rounds I have loaded for and fired in various gas guns (AR-15, M1 Garand, M1A, FAL, etc.). With a properly adjusted sizing die and seating die, you shouldn't either. I use and recommend a case gauge for these guns; I spot check around 10% of my brass after sizing, and have found that to be more than adequate for my needs.

[David2011]

Yes David a case guage is a good idea for a pistol. And I am sure it helps scores in the speed pistol events.
But this is a rifle, a whole different beast.

Good point. The only rifle I felt a need to case gage was the AR and it never failed to gage or feed. I don't gage my other rifle cases but I only load for one rifle in each caliber so it's always driven by the rifle's chamber. Well, almost. The 6.5x55 for my custom bolt gun feeds OK in the M96 but I'm only loading for the custom rifle. Fitting the M96 is a bonus. It may not be the best fit for the gun, like you said, but my eyes are no longer up to sub moa with iron sights.

I was only trying to point out that even for the simplest cartridge, an essentially straight walled pistol case, that things can go wrong under the best conditions.

David

[uncle joe]

Years ago an old timer overheard an acquaintance tell me that "you have to use small base dies or your ammo won't work in your M1A!". When the acquaintance moved on the old timer told me "don't buy small base dies until you've used your standard dies and proven that they don't work". It was, and still is good advise.


exactly what I had to do when loading for my new stag I tried regular dies that someone gave me and had hang ups. bought a small base set and no problems yet.
UJ

[bhn22]

One point that may be missing here. You did full length size your cases & trim them to the correct length, didn't you? If there's one thing ARs universally seem to hate, it's over-length cases. They'll give you elevated chamber pressures because the case mouth doesn't release the bullet, but instead clamps down like a collet at the forcing cone area. If your case is too long, it could also impact an abrupt chamber throat & jam. This could cause the symptoms you've described since the case would be too long to chamber fully, but be jammed firmly into the throat, preventing extraction. Add me to the list of those who don't use small base dies. I use either Hornady or Redding sizers & have never had a problem in gazillions of rounds. Literally. I also have a Gracey trimmer that's only set up for .223.

[btroj]

And don't forget to verify you aren't jamming the bullet into the lands. AR 15s are known for having a wide variety of throat dimensions. I can jam a 52 hpbt into the lands in my Wilde chamber and still have a magazine length round.

I have no problem with small base dies, and they will not affect brass life, I just need one. See no reason to use one. But if you are picking up mixed range brass it might not hurt, who knows what they were fired in.

Good luck

[mike in co]

Thanks everyone for the advice. This is my first ar style rifle

Gabby my dpms lite 16 is chambered in 556 nato.

I just ordered a set of small base rcbs x dies. It seems that most of you don't like the small base die because of brass life. I collet atleast 400 FREE 223/556 cases every weeked so I don't care about brass life. I will load seperatly for my ar and h&r.

based on what he is doing..( collecting range brass with no idea of its prior usage) a small base die is an answer.....

what i suggest is to sort the brass at least by head stamp..small base one time, trim to length and then go with the x die....

what i do not know is can a single xdie setting be used for both rifles ??

larry ??

mik ein co

[Lloyd Smale]

I load ALL my ammo for ar15s and ar10s with small base dies. Even if it was previously shot in that exact gun. I have 5 ar15s and and an ar10. With the 15s ive found differnces in chambers between them is enough that ammo fired in one may not work in another if not sized with a small base die. I even do it with the ar10 even though its an only child. As a matter of fact i do all my 308 ammo with one. I want to insure that if i grabs a bunch of 308 ammo off the shelf that it will run in the 10 even though it was made for a bolt gun. The most important thing in a self defense gun is reliability. Accuracy and brass life are secondary. Sizing with a sb die and trimming brass after each firing will insure that my guns run a 100 percent not 99. That been said both my ar15s and ar10 will easily shoot moa or less with ammo loaded with sb dies. I guess i just dont see any disadvantage to using them.

[AZ-Stew]

And don't forget to verify you aren't jamming the bullet into the lands. AR 15s are known for having a wide variety of throat dimensions. I can jam a 52 hpbt into the lands in my Wilde chamber and still have a magazine length round.

+1 on this. When I assembled my AR a year and a half or so, using a DPMS Varminter upper with what's supposed to be a 5.56 chamber and 1/9 twist, this was the first problem I ran into. I was shooting Berger 70 grain VLD bullets that have a long ogive. I set the cartridge overall length (COL) to the value given in one of my manuals and quickly found out that the intersection of the ogive and bullet shank was jamming into the rifling. I had to make my own COL gage that indexed off the ogive, just forward of the shank, to ensure that my handloads would feed (and unload) properly. This gage allows me to use any bullet and know where the shank is with respect to the rifling origin. I've called several of the bullet manufacturers and they all told me the same thing: "We don't spec the distance between the meplat and the start of the shank." This means that measuring from the bullet tip to the cartridge base gives you a meaningless value. Since the ogive length can vary, so can the distance from the cartridge base to the forward end of the bullet shank, unless you make your measurement as close as possible to the shank/ogive junction. Measuring at the meplat of a loaded round gives a bogus number.

I also stopped using my old RCBS standard two-die .223 set. For some reason cartridges started sticking in the sizer die. I always clean my cases before loading, so I'm reasonably certain the die isn't scratched. Stuck cases removed from it show no signs of scratching from the die, which would occur if the die was scratched. I cleaned the die with brake cleaner, re-lubed the die with a large cotton swab and Hornady case lube and immediately stuck the first lubed case I ran into the die. Repeated the process and immediately stuck a brand new Remington .223 case that I tried just to see if the fired cases were the problem. I replaced the RCBS dies with a Forster Bench Rest die set with the micrometer seater. The die is not a small base type and sizes the fired cases as smooth as butter. Haven't had any problems since, and the rounds chamber without a hitch.

But back on topic, do be sure to look at the bullet to be sure it's not being jammed into the rifling.

Regards,

Stew