Short Expander Plugs In 9mm Die Sets

[GabbyM]

I believe one of the problems with loading 9x19mm is the die sets with poorly designed expansion plugs. 124Gr RN bullets will about seat and then you're out of luck with deeper seating bullets.

Most 9x19mm expansion plugs are an 1/8th inch short for anything but the round nose bullets. Plus most are to small a diameter for even .356” cast bullets.

I have a popular Magma mould in 124 grain RN-BB bullet. Seating depth on this bullet not counting the small bevel base is a few thousandths over .150” if you make a long C.O.L. round at 1.145”. All my truncated cone bullets plus the Magma 147gr FP have a seating depth of the body diameter at .250” to .255”. My Lyman M die is the only one with adequate length and even then just barely as you need to make a long bullet. All my other die expander plugs are around 1/8th inch to short.

All my dies are a couple decades or more old. Perhaps die sets made post FBI load with 147 grain bullets have longer expansion plugs? I'm thinking not.

Bullets I have are the round nose which needs .150” to seat then 122gr TCFP, 125gr TCFP and 147 FP-BB that need .250 to .255” minimum.
Here are the dimensions of my expander plugs on hand. With a question. Why do they make these plugs so short?

380 acp RCBS = .353”
9mm Luger RCBS = tapered from .358” to .355” at bottom and .165” long. Plug is to short.
Lyman M die = .3525” with .357” top step. .195” to step .254” to flare step. Almost there.
Dillon Powder through die = .3530” by .150” deep. Short and skinny.

The only one of those four that actually works is the RCBS 9x19 plug and then only on 124gr RN bullet with short seat depth. Probably why many shooters think a nine will only run good with round nose bullets.

I know C&H dies will make plugs. What I'd like is a powder through for my Dillon that actually would load boolits. For the last thirty-five years I've just adjusted the size die up so it doesn't undersize the case to much. This in practice is unreliable. My Dillon 550 four hole doesn't have a station for a separate expander die so to use one I have to fist size and decap all the brass then start with the expander in station one. Why would I want to do all that work.

My thought is if I can't buy a Dillon powder through die that works I may just make a hundred or so. But they'd not be cheep from the looks of them. So has anyone ever tried hitting up Dillon for an expander that actually works? Does anyone have a newer Dillon expander that measures more forgiving?

The only reason I can think of for these short plugs is that junk European military surplus ammo with thick case walls as you get deeper into the case. [smilie=b:

[HeavyMetal]

I have never contacted Dillon about issues with thier die sets so have no input as to what they might say or do.

What I can tell you is when I have called for other issues they been pretty responsive and I just can't imagine you'll be the only guy to call with this problem.

Now having said that I have made my own powder through expanders for my Dillion 550, and it really wasn't hard to do, so any machine shop should be able to do this for you.

As far as price is concerned you'll have to show them what you want. Better yet PM Lathesmith or Buckshot here and see if they might tackle that project for you.

Being reloaders they will already be 4 jumps ahead of a small job shop on this idea!

[ReloaderFred]

You can always use a .38 expander, and if it's slightly over size, just polish it down to the proper size.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[GabbyM]

You can always use a .38 expander, and if it's slightly over size, just polish it down to the proper size.

Hope this helps.

Fred

I thought of that. Seams someone said the 38 special Lyman M die was to long for the 9mm. Suppose a Dillon may not be. Te way a Dillon expander is made they have a ball type feature machined towards the bottom. So cutting a 357 down to length wouldn't be an option. They're also chrome plated so not much way to cut them.

I think Heavy Metal has the right Idea. Just call Dillon Monday morning and lay it out. I see Dillon only charges $13.95 for a powder funnel as they call it. The “funnel” they show in photo has a straight walled expander plug on it. Mine is something like fifteen years old. Dillon may well have different dimensions on there new 9mm funnels. It's labeled 9mm/38 super. Don't know what's up with this .150” long step but all the others except the Lyman M die are that way too.

I pulled a flat base bullet out of a case expanded with my Dillon funnel and it had a little bevel base swagged on it from where it went below the expanded section. 9Mm brass is pretty stout as it tapers.
The FC case I have in front of me has a .010” case wall down to about .200” then by the time it's .250” deep you're at the start of the thickness tapper. Which is why the bullets bulge the case walls out. I'm sure this is why the Lyman M die is just barely long enough. Since you go past about .260” and you're into a .015” thick wall. As a test I just seated a 150 gain .358” revolver bullet down in a case and it does not fit a chamber buy what looks like the amount this bullet is below .260”. There's a .292” bulge at the bottom of bullet and a 9mm is only specked at .291” at the web. These FC are .286” at the web. So obviously if you run a to long expander plug in a 9mm case it won't chamber after.

Measuring the assorted brass I have reveals Remington brass has a .010” wall down to about .280”. The Speer brass is all over the place. Some has a .330” deep neck others have a .245” deep neck. It's all from a big box of range sweepings. To be fair to Speer the head stamps are different. Some marked +P.
Have some WIN brass with only a .220” neck.

Looks like I'll be sorting out REM brass for the deep seating bullets. Have a box with 5,000 FC cases. Will have to see about the 147gr bullets in those. Its close. Should work but if they have much of a bulge I may just load 124gr RN in them.

There is a lot to be said for simply loading the 124gr round nose in a 9mm I think. No wonder so many shooter have issues with loading the Lee TL bullets in a nine. Real **** shoot. IMO the Lyman M die would cure most issues with crushing boolits. Mine is probably smaller than norm at .3525” dia. plug.
However bullets seam to seat OK after it. 9mm brass doesn't seam to have much spring back. At least the brass I've used of late I can finger press a .356” bullet into the top step from the Lyman M die that's .357” on the plug. Which is really odd.

Long messy post wasn't it.

[GabbyM]

I have never contacted Dillon about issues with thier die sets so have no input as to what they might say or do.

What I can tell you is when I have called for other issues they been pretty responsive and I just can't imagine you'll be the only guy to call with this problem.

Now having said that I have made my own powder through expanders for my Dillion 550, and it really wasn't hard to do, so any machine shop should be able to do this for you.

As far as price is concerned you'll have to show them what you want. Better yet PM Lathesmith or Buckshot here and see if they might tackle that project for you.

Being reloaders they will already be 4 jumps ahead of a small job shop on this idea!

Yes I think my first step will be to contact Dillon Tech support tomorrow.

Fist I'll set up the 550 on 9mm and run some cases to get more precise measurements on depth and brass spring back.

[bhn22]

I just spent a minute of quality time with my 550 expanders for 38/357 & 9mm. Both are the same diameter, .355, but the 38/357 expander is a little over 1/8 longer in the pilot area. The lead tapers are different too, with the 9mm being more abrupt in angle. This stands to reason because of the inside taper of the much shorter case. I do have a 358 M die and the pilot on it measures .357. I suppose a guy could size the pesky 9mm cases on the single stage, then use an M die at the first station on a 550 & then flare the case & charge it normally at the second station. Perhaps it is time for some custom powder charge stems for Dillons.

[GabbyM]

Do you have any calipers to measure how deep the plugs reach? An eight inch longer than my 9mm funnel would be just right at .275”.

[bhn22]

.357- OAL- 2.163. Pilot dia- 3.54- 3.55 (not perfectly round). Pilot length- .25 (approx.)

9mm- OAL- 2.52. Pilot dia- .354-.355 (not perfectly round). Pilot length- .125 (approx)

The .357 plug is considerably shorter than the 9mm, as would be expected with the difference in case length. I suppose Dillon figured that the plugs would be used for bullet weights that are pretty std to caliber, hence the pilot length differences. It does appear that there could be an advantage to turning down pilots from larger calibers. Probably 40 S&W pilots for the 9mm. I'll bet my 45 ACP pilot is short too. This would likely explain why my 1911s lead with heavy bullets, but not with lightweights.

Yup. The 45 ACP pilot length is only .25. My 40 S&W pilot length is huge in comparison, slightly longer than even the .357. I didn't measure it, I just eyeballed it quickly. The 40 S&W plug is slightly longer than the 9mm one but the tapers are cut differently to allow the longer pilot.

There are reasons for everything, we just need to find them. Nice catch Gabby, I never thought about my expanders being part of an intermittent problem.

[GabbyM]

Thanks bhn22: Sounds like if I buy a 357 revolver funnel It'll get er done.
Sounds like your 9mm funnel has the same plug length as mine. I was measuring all lengths after a .010" neck bell was achieved. Could be that my expander plug is worn down a couple thousandths from new dimension accounting for the feeble .3525" diameter.

I was thinking these Dillon funnels were chrome plated but on closer inspection it looks to be highly polished steel.

With a lathe a machinist could turn back the flaring shoulder on one of these powder funnels to lengthen the expander stem to suite.

[biscot]

GabbyM,
Any update or contact from Dillon?
I also have a Dillon and would be very interested in your solution.

Bill

[GabbyM]

GabbyM,
Any update or contact from Dillon?
I also have a Dillon and would be very interested in your solution.

Bill

Been waiting on some money to float my way . Plan is to just order the 357 revolver powder funnel.

[biscot]

OK, thanks.

[GLShooter]

I've been using the 38 Super expander set up in my Dillon presses for years. It seems to handle all bullet weights. I know they are the same type for the 9MM in the Dillon and have loaded some 147's without issue.

I have also used the Lee through powder expanders without problems for the same bullet.

Greg

[bobo55]

Guys, I contacted Dillon and they do not make custom expanders. I'm in the process of seeing if Lathsmith can make them at reasonable cost.

[buyobuyo]

I use the .38/.357 M-die for loading 9mm. The expander portion measures .356 and the top step (as you call it) measures .360. I've never measured the lengths, but it is definitely longer than the 9mm expander. It expands ~2/3 the length of the case. To get the loaded rounds to chamber, I have to run them through a FCD, and I don't experience any swaging when loading boolits sized as big as .358 (cast from ACWWs). I haven't tried bigger than .357 boolits cast from AC 50/50.

[cabezaverde]

Have you looked at the Lyman universal charging die set?

Essentially, you are buying a charge die with a variety of case spuds. Includes one for 38/357, 9mm etc. I am at the office and don't have them handy to measure.

The spuds are like an m die profile.

[Dannix]

GabbyM, how did the 357 revolver powder funnel work out for you?