The crazy, crazy BFR .500 JRH.

[44man]

Whitworth was out today and we had the Ultra Dot off his BFR .500 JRH for a photo session. I put it back on today and we sighted it 1" high at 50 yards.
I put up a beer can at 100 yards and he shot at it. It did not fall so I said "give me a shot." I shot and it fell. This is what we found. The first picture is the in hole and the other is where the two boolits came out.
Both boolits in the SAME HOLE! Two shooters, two shots in the same hole!

[southpaw]

Great shooting!! But I would hardly call that beer!:smile:

Jerry Jr.

[44man]

This is the same gun I shot 3 shots into 1/4" at 50 yards with.

[44man]

Great shooting!! But I would hardly call that beer!:smile:

Jerry Jr.
The beer is CHEAP, what can I say? [smilie=l:

[Whitworth]

Great shooting!! But I would hardly call that beer!:smile:

Jerry Jr.


You're right Jerry -- actually no really good beer comes in a can.......;-)

[RP]

He drinks it just so he can say Hold my stones, lol

[Frank]

Could it be Whitworth's shot was the left hole in the picture on the right? That shot spun the can, then you fired thru his exit hole and made the right hole in the second pic. It's hard to believe that the can didn't move on the first shot.

[44man]

Could it be Whitworth's shot was the left hole in the picture on the right? That shot spun the can, then you fired thru his exit hole and made the right hole in the second pic. It's hard to believe that the can didn't move on the first shot.
Yes, the can must have turned from the first shot but both shots went into the same hole.
The out holes are really "out" holes.

[Whitworth]

It obviously spun the can a bit judging by the hole. The two on the back are definitely exits.

I am soooo impressed with this revolver!

[Frank]

And you put the dot on the can. That means you're 3" low at 100 yds. 1" high at 50. Probably zero'd at 75 yds. Looks great.

[Dill45]

That is pretty insane. I can't believe it didn't move the can on the first shot, yet did on the second.

All the talk of BFR's on this forum makes me want to get one. They seem like wonderful revolvers.

[44man]

And you put the dot on the can. That means you're 3" low at 100 yds. 1" high at 50. Probably zero'd at 75 yds. Looks great.
Not really, we both aimed at the same spot on the can. The boolits hit right at the aim point. The gun has very little drop.
I watch Whitworth shoot the pig at 100 and the gun is not even coming up to half recoil when the pig is SLAMMED down. It is really a THUMPER!
This is one gun I want for myself. I made the boolit mold and it weighs 437 gr so there is no reason not to have a gun.

[jwp475]

Very accurate revolver and cartridge...

[Whitworth]

That is pretty insane. I can't believe it didn't move the can on the first shot, yet did on the second.

All the talk of BFR's on this forum makes me want to get one. They seem like wonderful revolvers.


You should get one -- everyone should get one! It's becoming my favorite revolver!

[Whitworth]

Very accurate revolver and cartridge...

Yeah, the cartridge is a barn burner for sure! I don't think I'll be hunting with anything else this season.

[Frank]

So that's a 6.5" revolver. Right? What happens when you shoot it offhand. Same POI? But you guys are good so you've got all your bases covered.

[500bfrman]

i am not surprised at all. it's a bfr. I am sure 44man could do that with my 500. I can shoot it pretty good for me. I am not a good shot, but my 500 makes me look good.

[Whitworth]

So that's a 6.5" revolver. Right? What happens when you shoot it offhand. Same POI? But you guys are good so you've got all your bases covered.


The POI is the same, Frank.

[Whitworth]

Here you can clearly see that the two holes are exits:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/P1000714.jpg

[cptinjeff]

Oh come on!!!! You guys are missing the most important piece of info....


Who would want a gun that needs two hits to take down a can???:roll::mrgreen:

Nice shooting gentlemen!

[btroj]

Great, now I find out I am undegunned with my 44mag SRH for beer cans.
You guys are gonna here it from my wife when she hears that I need a new revolver for killing beer cans.
I got to stop viewing this site......

[44man]

Oh come on!!!! You guys are missing the most important piece of info....


Who would want a gun that needs two hits to take down a can???:roll::mrgreen:

Nice shooting gentlemen!
Yeah, just a little gun! :holysheep
But you need to see two silly fools walking the range with stupid grins to appreciate the gun!

[Whitworth]

Great, now I find out I am undegunned with my 44mag SRH for beer cans.
You guys are gonna here it from my wife when she hears that I need a new revolver for killing beer cans.
I got to stop viewing this site......

Actually we did some load development with my .50 Alaskan after the BFR, and it makes the .500 JRH look like a pipsqueak!

[500bfrman]

Actually we did some load development with my .50 Alaskan after the BFR, and it makes the .500 JRH look like a pipsqueak!

what happened? what were you shooting in it? I am dying to know about the 50. I have got to get one.

[Whitworth]

what happened? what were you shooting in it? I am dying to know about the 50. I have got to get one.

With this little guy:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/50AKJRHJPG-2.jpg

[500bfrman]

what size boolits were you shooting in it? 525's? did you chrono? accuracy test? I'm in love.

[southpaw]

I think I just fell in love too!!!!

Jerry Jr.

[44man]

what size boolits were you shooting in it? 525's? did you chrono? accuracy test? I'm in love.
I loaded the .50 Alaskan with 455 gr and 547 gr boolits. I went from 50 to 53 gr of 4198. They all seemed very accurate but the gun is so punishing that I need to build a rest so we can shoot it standing.
A guy just can't do a long session with it.
We don't chrono anything until we find what a gun likes and the .500 JRH will be checked in the future, there is just nothing more needed for load work, it is crazy accurate and pleasant to shoot, about like the .475 but it does not have the wrist twist of the .475.
I don't think we will ever see the accuracy as good as these two from the Alaskan, it is just too nasty. I watch Whitworth shoot it and it looks like he is trying to stop a horse on the run! :mrgreen:
I have to make a new front sight anyway, it hits too low with the rear sight all the way up. I forgot to have him leave the gun here.
Personally, the .475 and the .500 JRH are right at the top of super accuracy, recoil and the ability to do anything you want, no need for anything larger. The JRH does nothing but impress me every time I shoot it and all of you know how picky I am. I just have to have one! [smilie=w:
But Whitworth likes to go home and soak his hand in ice water so what more can I say? :bigsmyl2:
If you hanker for the .50 Alaskan, I can only say "beware of what you wish for." I am not kidding---it is EVIL! This from an old man that can shoot a .475 all day.

[500bfrman]

sweet. two things I wish I could do. come shoot with you two and go shoot lloyd smale's linebaugh's.

[44man]

You would have fun.
Whitworth drives me nuts because he can't stop shooting to save some loads for hunting. Now I have to cast and load more for him. I have all of his brass in the tumbler now.
But he brings good booze! [smilie=1:
He has six rounds left, three deer, one moose, one buf and one pig, or mix them up. But he says "no" need more!
I have to get him out of that apartment to a farm. City boy ya know! :kidding:

[Potsy]

Hate to ask stupid questions, but what's a .500 JRH ?
Does it require an extra long frame (.45-70, .460 S&W) or does it fit on a .44 sized frame?
Just wondering in case I ever need anything wider than a .45 Colt.
Thanks!!

[Whitworth]

But Whitworth likes to go home and soak his hand in ice water so what more can I say? :bigsmyl2:
If you hanker for the .50 Alaskan, I can only say "beware of what you wish for." I am not kidding---it is EVIL! This from an old man that can shoot a .475 all day.


44man exagerates a bit, but my hand is sore because that revolver requires lots of muscle tension to shoot. If you let it move, it will bury the front sight in your scalp.

It is a real handful, but are we men or mice? :mrgreen:

[Whitworth]

You would have fun.
Whitworth drives me nuts because he can't stop shooting to save some loads for hunting. Now I have to cast and load more for him. I have all of his brass in the tumbler now.
But he brings good booze! [smilie=1:
He has six rounds left, three deer, one moose, one buf and one pig, or mix them up. But he says "no" need more!
I have to get him out of that apartment to a farm. City boy ya know! :kidding:


We started with 18 rounds of the final load, had to finish sighting in, and believe it or not, practice. I have done no offhand practice with the gun yet, and Jim would have me save the last six rounds for deer season. The problem is that there is more than just deer season, and quite frankly I like to practice offhand and we still need to run a practice session out of the tree stand.

[Whitworth]

Hate to ask stupid questions, but what's a .500 JRH ?
Does it require an extra long frame (.45-70, .460 S&W) or does it fit on a .44 sized frame?
Just wondering in case I ever need anything wider than a .45 Colt.
Thanks!!


The first dummy for this cartridge was turned in a lathe back in 1998 (if memory serves me correctly -- it often doesn't). The .500 Smith can be used, but to get the dimensions right, you need to turn the rim down a bit, and cut the case to a nominal 1.4-inches. It is a .501 diameter. So yes, it fits in a "normally sized" revolver.

The .50 Alaskan is a different case altogether! :bigsmyl2:

[Whitworth]

City boy ya know! :kidding:

Yeah, real city boy......

Hunt like one too, huh?

[44man]

Hate to ask stupid questions, but what's a .500 JRH ?
Does it require an extra long frame (.45-70, .460 S&W) or does it fit on a .44 sized frame?
Just wondering in case I ever need anything wider than a .45 Colt.
Thanks!!
Short cylinder, not the huge 45-70 one. Buy a BFR, nothing better unless you want a custom but I don't think a custom will do better, only equal a BFR.
Jack Huntington developed the cartridge.

[Potsy]

I didn't see a .500JRH on their website, only the .50AE.
Is yours a re-bored .50AE or do they offer the JRH on a custom basis?
What does it do in terms of boolit weight, velocity, and pressure?
I'm kinda intrigued as I've thought about getting a .50 revolver of some sort but didn't want to dish out the cash (ain't got the cash, to be more precise) for a 5-shot Ruger conversion, and I've never wanted a "stretched frame" revolver.
Thanks!!

[jwp475]

The 500 AE can not be rechambered to 500 JRH

[Whitworth]

I didn't see a .500JRH on their website, only the .50AE.
Is yours a re-bored .50AE or do they offer the JRH on a custom basis?
What does it do in terms of boolit weight, velocity, and pressure?
I'm kinda intrigued as I've thought about getting a .50 revolver of some sort but didn't want to dish out the cash (ain't got the cash, to be more precise) for a 5-shot Ruger conversion, and I've never wanted a "stretched frame" revolver.
Thanks!!


It's a Precision Center offering that will be part of the regular BFR lineup soon. I have shot loads as light as 350 grains at 1,450 fps to 440s over 1,300, but the hardest kicking thus far are the loads that Buffalo Bore made that sling a 425 grain bullet at 1,450 out of my 6.5-inch revolver. The accuracy is unbelievable!

[donjose]

If you have a 50AE You can send the gun to Magnum Research and they will make a new cylinder for it.
Or you can wait a few more months and it will be available as a normal caliber pistol.

Jason

[Potsy]

Thanks for the info guys!!

[500bfrman]

anybody know anything else magnum research is coming out with in BFR's?

[44man]

I feel both Whitworth and I am instrumental in Magnum Research bringing the .500 JRH into a production item. The work we have done with the custom shop gun has proven it is as good as it gets. It is as easy to work with as the .475 and like the .475, it does NOT need gas checked boolits, our groups are shot with PB. I only use water dropped WW metal. There is just nothing special that needs to be done when loading and if you miss the target, blame yourself.
Now the .50 Alaskan with heavy boolits is showing boolits pulling crimp even with a lot of case tension. I have no solution for it yet and don't think brass is strong enough to prevent it. There is just too much recoil.
Keeping boolits in the brass is a large concern so it does no good to go too far with a revolver, either with super large cases or weight of boolits.

[ole 5 hole group]

There is one little problem with the 500JRH – and it’s with the brass. Anything over a 440 grain seldom works without reworking the case after applying the roll crimp. 440 grain hard cast bullets are a hit & miss situation and most won’t work properly. 400 grain and less are no problem.

That said, I have found no 500 grain cast bullet to work in the 500JRH but the 500 grain jacketed Hornady works just fine. Seems like the taper in the JRH brass starts just a hair too soon, which causes a slight case bulge, when seating a 440 grain or heavier bullet in the “normal” crimp groove. This bulge will prevent the case from fully sliding into the charge (cylinder) holes.

You can work around this problem but it’s a PITA, so a custom mold is the answer or crimp in the top grease groove.

I haven’t tried all the different casters out there, so there may be a few that cast a 440 grain bullet that has just the right length shank (probably cast performance but I haven’t tried theirs yet). If anyone knows of a commercial caster making 440 to 500 grain bullets that will properly seat in the 500JRH brass - post up.

[44man]

There is one little problem with the 500JRH – and it’s with the brass. Anything over a 440 grain seldom works without reworking the case after applying the roll crimp. 440 grain hard cast bullets are a hit & miss situation and most won’t work properly. 400 grain and less are no problem.

That said, I have found no 500 grain cast bullet to work in the 500JRH but the 500 grain jacketed Hornady works just fine. Seems like the taper in the JRH brass starts just a hair too soon, which causes a slight case bulge, when seating a 440 grain or heavier bullet in the “normal” crimp groove. This bulge will prevent the case from fully sliding into the charge (cylinder) holes.

You can work around this problem but it’s a PITA, so a custom mold is the answer or crimp in the top grease groove.

I haven’t tried all the different casters out there, so there may be a few that cast a 440 grain bullet that has just the right length shank (probably cast performance but I haven’t tried theirs yet). If anyone knows of a commercial caster making 440 to 500 grain bullets that will properly seat in the 500JRH brass - post up.
My 437 gr is just right and I have not seen any problems. The .500 Linebaugh however will NOT take heavy boolits that go deep in the brass.
Here is my boolit, it is .502", sized to .501". Seating depth is about .515".
I have to wonder if you are not confusing the two cases.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't have a 500 Linebaugh - I have the 500 Linebaugh Maximum, which is the 1.610" case, so I'm talking about the 500JRH case.

My seating depth on the bullet measures about the same as yours - 0.515 to 0.519. Brass is 1.400".

I use a gas check bullet sized 0.501 and I've also tried the 0.500 with same results. Here's a picture and at this point I can push the case into the cylinder hole with some force - notice the bright line on the case (no crimp applied yet) - that's where it's touching, right at the base of the bullet and where the taper begins.

I don't like crimping at this depth - I would prefer a couple thousandths deeper to get a better bite in the crimp groove and if I do that I can't push the case into the cylinder hole. A 400 grain bullet just drops in with gravity force.

I looked at your case again and I think our cases look alike and maybe my charge holes are just a little tight and that might be the problem and not the brass - might have to give Jim Tertin a call in the morning. I've been messing with this problem going on a couple years now and maybe all that was needed was to send the cylinder back with a couple different dummy cases. Damn I'm dumb.

[Frank]

Whitworth said
Here you can clearly see that the two holes are exits:

That was great shooting, and I have no doubt that two boolits went thru the same hole. But tell me. How does an empty beer can get hit by a 440 grn .500" wide boolit and not at least fall over? When I hit cans they go 30-40 feet.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats one fine shooting wheel gun!

[Whitworth]

Whitworth said
That was great shooting, and I have no doubt that two boolits went thru the same hole. But tell me. How does an empty beer can get hit by a 440 grn .500" wide boolit and not at least fall over? When I hit cans they go 30-40 feet.


Frank, I don't know, but it happened. There is an exception to every rule. It did move a bit (it spun a little), but also keep in mind that the can is really light, and bullets just zip through. Strange indeed.

[Whitworth]

There is one little problem with the 500JRH – and it’s with the brass. Anything over a 440 grain seldom works without reworking the case after applying the roll crimp. 440 grain hard cast bullets are a hit & miss situation and most won’t work properly. 400 grain and less are no problem.

That said, I have found no 500 grain cast bullet to work in the 500JRH but the 500 grain jacketed Hornady works just fine. Seems like the taper in the JRH brass starts just a hair too soon, which causes a slight case bulge, when seating a 440 grain or heavier bullet in the “normal” crimp groove. This bulge will prevent the case from fully sliding into the charge (cylinder) holes.

You can work around this problem but it’s a PITA, so a custom mold is the answer or crimp in the top grease groove.

I haven’t tried all the different casters out there, so there may be a few that cast a 440 grain bullet that has just the right length shank (probably cast performance but I haven’t tried theirs yet). If anyone knows of a commercial caster making 440 to 500 grain bullets that will properly seat in the 500JRH brass - post up.

Anyone who knows me, knows that I am an advocate of heavy for caliber cast bullets. But I also believe there is a point of diminishing returns (like 700 grain bullets in the .500 Smith for example). That said, I have come to realize that the nose profile is the biggest determinent in the way a bullet penetrates assuming "enough" weight. The best penetrating bullet I have seen to date in the .500 JRH is the 425 grain truncated cone that was loaded by Buffalo Bore. It has a beautiful nose with a meplat that is right around 78% (if memory serves correctly).

[44man]

I don't have a 500 Linebaugh - I have the 500 Linebaugh Maximum, which is the 1.610" case, so I'm talking about the 500JRH case.

My seating depth on the bullet measures about the same as yours - 0.515 to 0.519. Brass is 1.400".

I use a gas check bullet sized 0.501 and I've also tried the 0.500 with same results. Here's a picture and at this point I can push the case into the cylinder hole with some force - notice the bright line on the case (no crimp applied yet) - that's where it's touching, right at the base of the bullet and where the taper begins.

I don't like crimping at this depth - I would prefer a couple thousandths deeper to get a better bite in the crimp groove and if I do that I can't push the case into the cylinder hole. A 400 grain bullet just drops in with gravity force.

I looked at your case again and I think our cases look alike and maybe my charge holes are just a little tight and that might be the problem and not the brass - might have to give Jim Tertin a call in the morning. I've been messing with this problem going on a couple years now and maybe all that was needed was to send the cylinder back with a couple different dummy cases. Damn I'm dumb.
Whitworth will know. I know Linebaugh used different parent brass for his .500 series. I ran into that problem with his Linebaugh and now have a mold that only works in the .50 Alaskan but it is so heavy it pulls crimp.
There is a great difference in where the case tapers between the Linebaugh and JRH.
I would not change anything with your cylinder, just use a different boolit that does not go as deep.
Please don't mess with your BFR, boolits are cheaper.

[jwp475]

I don't have a 500 Linebaugh - I have the 500 Linebaugh Maximum, which is the 1.610" case, so I'm talking about the 500JRH case.

My seating depth on the bullet measures about the same as yours - 0.515 to 0.519. Brass is 1.400".

I use a gas check bullet sized 0.501 and I've also tried the 0.500 with same results. Here's a picture and at this point I can push the case into the cylinder hole with some force - notice the bright line on the case (no crimp applied yet) - that's where it's touching, right at the base of the bullet and where the taper begins.

I don't like crimping at this depth - I would prefer a couple thousandths deeper to get a better bite in the crimp groove and if I do that I can't push the case into the cylinder hole. A 400 grain bullet just drops in with gravity force.

I looked at your case again and I think our cases look alike and maybe my charge holes are just a little tight and that might be the problem and not the brass - might have to give Jim Tertin a call in the morning. I've been messing with this problem going on a couple years now and maybe all that was needed was to send the cylinder back with a couple different dummy cases. Damn I'm dumb.




You are correct about the case taper in the case

[ole 5 hole group]

Called the BFR precision shop this morning and discussed my “little” problem with them and they stated it was probably a brass/bullet combination problem and they advised against “polishing the cylinder” to fit the loaded cartridge. So, I’m back to square 1.

Whitworth, I have a box of those 425 grain BB loads and they are a bit snappy, not something you want to shoot all day long. I understand Jack has punched 2 holes per shot in some big stuff and has proven its penetration claims.

What little I’ve done with the JRH I’d say there’s not much to be gained beyond a 425 grain bullet at 1,350fps. I’ve pushed a 460 grain to 1,431fps, which has more felt recoil than the above 425 grain BB load and the 500 grain to 1,178fps, which wasn’t bad at all.

Myself, I think a 440 grain at 950fps is more than enough for any 4 legged creatures in the lower 48 and is pleasant to punch holes in paper all day long.

[Aaron]

Is the 50 Alaskan the one Jack H built?

[Whitworth]

Called the BFR precision shop this morning and discussed my “little” problem with them and they stated it was probably a brass/bullet combination problem and they advised against “polishing the cylinder” to fit the loaded cartridge. So, I’m back to square 1.

Whitworth, I have a box of those 425 grain BB loads and they are a bit snappy, not something you want to shoot all day long. I understand Jack has punched 2 holes per shot in some big stuff and has proven its penetration claims.

What little I’ve done with the JRH I’d say there’s not much to be gained beyond a 425 grain bullet at 1,350fps. I’ve pushed a 460 grain to 1,431fps, which has more felt recoil than the above 425 grain BB load and the 500 grain to 1,178fps, which wasn’t bad at all.

Myself, I think a 440 grain at 950fps is more than enough for any 4 legged creatures in the lower 48 and is pleasant to punch holes in paper all day long.

That 440 grain load certainly is enough and it doesn't beat the shooter up in the least. What length barrel do you have?

[Whitworth]

Is the 50 Alaskan the one Jack H built?

Yes sir, one and the same. It hurts, but is a lot of fun nonetheless!

[500bfrman]

I will be getting a 50 alaskan. Anybody know if there are any other options than JH? Not that he is bad in anyway. Just wondered what other options there might be for it. I figured you could probably get one from precision center if you want, but their prices won't be a lot cheaper by much (1750 for a custom caliber plus 350 for an octagon), and the octagon isn't as cool and already up to 2200. I hate calling people asking about prices, and I'm not ready to buy for about four months. Feel like I'm wasting their time. am I?

[Whitworth]

I will be getting a 50 alaskan. Anybody know if there are any other options than JH? Not that he is bad in anyway. Just wondered what other options there might be for it. I figured you could probably get one from precision center if you want, but their prices won't be a lot cheaper by much (1750 for a custom caliber plus 350 for an octagon), and the octagon isn't as cool and already up to 2200. I hate calling people asking about prices, and I'm not ready to buy for about four months. Feel like I'm wasting their time. am I?

Why look elsewhere? He is cheaper and better than most. Get a big framed BFR and have him punch out the factory cylinder and rebarrel and you are done. Not a whole lot of work or expense involved. Call him up and talk to him even if you are not ready and tell him I sent you.

[500bfrman]

ok. one question though. what's your name? lol

[Whitworth]

ok. one question though. what's your name? lol

Whitworth!

[44MAG#1]

I too would love to know what a decent load would clock in the 50 Alaskan with a 525 gr or so bullet. One does not have to have a one holer load just to chrono for the fun and giggles of it.
Set up the ole chrono and run maybe 3 rounds through it. Sure wont hurt anything.
WAG's and SWAG's are okay but technical data trumps everytime.
We know that the actual final load may differ but what the hey so be it.

[Whitworth]

I too would love to know what a decent load would clock in the 50 Alaskan with a 525 gr or so bullet. One does not have to have a one holer load just to chrono for the fun and giggles of it.
Set up the ole chrono and run maybe 3 rounds through it. Sure wont hurt anything.
WAG's and SWAG's are okay but technical data trumps everytime.
We know that the actual final load may differ but what the hey so be it.

We have clocked BB's 525 grain loads and they went 1,575 out of my gun.

[500bfrman]

that's pretty impressive. according to buffalo bore's website they say the 525 goes 1850 and you lost 275 to get 1575. accordingly the 450 grain goes 2100 using the same logic you could get that at 1875. compared to 500 smith at 1650 according to hodgdon, though i have gotten over 1700 in my BFR. none the less about 200 fps faster. nice.

[ole 5 hole group]

That 440 grain load certainly is enough and it doesn't beat the shooter up in the least. What length barrel do you have?

I have a 6" barrel and recently found a 440 grain bullet with 14.0 grains of HS-6 to give excellent groups at 976fps and another excellent low velocity load is 25.2 grains of N120 at 930fps. I use the WLP primer.

Talking about big bores and max velocity is one thing and getting out there and running 5 over the chronograph can be another. I stopped with the Linebaugh Max at 1,546fps with the 440 grain - I had another load ready to go but the 1,546fps had so much torque that I felt fortunate that I hadn't broke my wrist and just took the "other" 5 apart and called it a day. I would think the 50 Alaskan can get real nasty and if you get stupid with it, you better be real tough.

[Whitworth]

that's pretty impressive. according to buffalo bore's website they say the 525 goes 1850 and you lost 275 to get 1575. accordingly the 450 grain goes 2100 using the same logic you could get that at 1875. compared to 500 smith at 1650 according to hodgdon, though i have gotten over 1700 in my BFR. none the less about 200 fps faster. nice.

But it's really hard to control at those speeds. I think it could easily get well over 1,600 with that same bullet, but I won't be the one pulling the trigger!

I really want a BFR in .500 S&W too -- then I will have all of the .50s!

[Whitworth]

I have a 6" barrel and recently found a 440 grain bullet with 14.0 grains of HS-6 to give excellent groups at 976fps and another excellent low velocity load is 25.2 grains of N120 at 930fps. I use the WLP primer.

Talking about big bores and max velocity is one thing and getting out there and running 5 over the chronograph can be another. I stopped with the Linebaugh Max at 1,546fps with the 440 grain - I had another load ready to go but the 1,546fps had so much torque that I felt fortunate that I hadn't broke my wrist and just took the "other" 5 apart and called it a day. I would think the 50 Alaskan can get real nasty and if you get stupid with it, you better be real tough.

It's easy to get stupid with any of these big-bores. I am having a max built but I have no intensions of pushing it very hard -- certainly not to that level!! I can't imagine that we aren't doing some permanent damage to our wrists and hands. Can I ask what your max load was that produced those velocities? You can PM me! Thank you!

[Dill45]

But it's really hard to control at those speeds. I think it could easily get well over 1,600 with that same bullet, but I won't be the one pulling the trigger!

I really want a BFR in .500 S&W too -- then I will have all of the .50s!

You should really try some of those 700 grainers if you get one in S&W 500.

They're a hoot even if they aren't very practical.

[Whitworth]

You should really try some of those 700 grainers if you get one in S&W 500.

They're a hoot even if they aren't very practical.

I will try them if/when I get a .500 Smith -- just for the hell of it!

[Dill45]

I will try them if/when I get a .500 Smith -- just for the hell of it!

To be honest with you, some 515grain bullets I've shot out of it have been more brutal than most of the loads using the 700 grain bullets. Maybe it's how I perceive the recoil, but the ultra heavy bullets seem to have more of a slower rolling type of recoil compared to the 475-525grain bullets.

I'd really like to get all of the 50 cal hand guns. Though I've heard some wild stories of those lighter six shooters and some insane recoil.

[Whitworth]

I would imagine that the 700 grainers eat up so much case capacity that you really can't push them very fast. I know the 525s in my Alaskan are brutal at the speeds we are able to push them.

[Dill45]

Fastest I've managed to push them is around 1200 FPS. It does eat a lot of capacity up, but boy is that a lot of lead flying down there.

[500bfrman]

if you get a bfr in 500smith then you can have mountain molds make you a 700 grain mold with a .85 nose and then you only use .5 of the case capacity. therefore you can make them more brutal for your wrist. or you could just have some from my mold probably, though I haven't worked up a load for it yet. 710 grains.

[500bfrman]

what is your alaskan barrel length

[Dill45]

if you get a bfr in 500smith then you can have mountain molds make you a 700 grain mold with a .85 nose and then you only use .5 of the case capacity. therefore you can make them more brutal for your wrist. or you could just have some from my mold probably, though I haven't worked up a load for it yet. 710 grains.

How much of the cylinder on a BFR does that take up?

[jwp475]

what is your alaskan barrel length



The barrel is 8" long

[Whitworth]

The barrel is 8" long

jwp475 is the only person I know who hasn't clocked himself in the head with the .50 Alaskan (it used to be his) despite multiple shots. It's actually 7-inches -- I just measured it -- that is excluding the muzzle brake. Pretty impressive speeds are achieved with it considering the rather "short" barrel!

[500bfrman]

How much of the cylinder on a BFR does that take up?

almost 2.5 out of an available 3. the standard 440 grainload takes just over 2, and the 700 grains that most people shoot are just under 2.3 so they can fit in the puny x frame. so i'm picking up an extra .17 ish inches of powder space. which is almost equivalent to what the 440's and 500's have available for powder.

[500bfrman]

jwp475 is the only person I know who hasn't clocked himself in the head with the .50 Alaskan (it used to be his) despite multiple shots. It's actually 7-inches -- I just measured it -- that is excluding the muzzle brake. Pretty impressive speeds are achieved with it considering the rather "short" barrel!


is this a serious statement? that most people are actually clocking themselves in the head? People that i presume know what they are doing. if so that thing is just insane. all the more reason I want one. i knoow one guy that clocked himself in the face(cheek) with the xframe 2 3/4. but he didn't know what he was doing and was shooting it wrong. I want to know if these people are regualr big bore shooters and its happening.

[Whitworth]

is this a serious statement? that most people are actually clocking themselves in the head? People that i presume know what they are doing. if so that thing is just insane. all the more reason I want one. i knoow one guy that clocked himself in the face(cheek) with the xframe 2 3/4. but he didn't know what he was doing and was shooting it wrong. I want to know if these people are regualr big bore shooters and its happening.

I am very serious. The recoil impulse of this thing is really long. When you think it is through recoil, it's at the halfway point. It takes a lot of muscle tension to shoot it and if you relax and don't give it your full attention, it will make contact. I opened a two-inch gash in my scalp last year when shooting it. Second cylinder, third shot and it clocked me. I finished the cylinder of course.......:mrgreen:

It's a horse!

[500bfrman]

the more you tell me about this the more I want one. I am just crazy like that. I struggled with the 500 smith bfr at first, not with hitting my head, but with accuracy because of recoil and flinch. Then I told myself i can do this and shot my best group ever with any gun, rifle included. Granted i am not a great shot, but hey I can shoot the bfr pretty good. not one hole in two shots in a beer can at 50 yards like some people. I am interested to see what 200 fps and 20 grains of powder will add to the mix.

[Whitworth]

the more you tell me about this the more I want one. I am just crazy like that. I struggled with the 500 smith bfr at first, not with hitting my head, but with accuracy because of recoil and flinch. Then I told myself i can do this and shot my best group ever with any gun, rifle included. Granted i am not a great shot, but hey I can shoot the bfr pretty good. not one hole in two shots in a beer can at 50 yards like some people. I am interested to see what 200 fps and 20 grains of powder will add to the mix.

If that is what you seek, then this is the caliber you want. It is an accomplishment to master these big guns, and you have obviously done well. That was one entrance, two shooters, and 100 yards! LOL! Seriously though, it is a blast -- both literally and figuratively speaking! Call Jack and just talk to him......

[Frank]

If you think you'll be clunked in the head, get one of these. :redneck:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360307382453&viewitem=

[44man]

the more you tell me about this the more I want one. I am just crazy like that. I struggled with the 500 smith bfr at first, not with hitting my head, but with accuracy because of recoil and flinch. Then I told myself i can do this and shot my best group ever with any gun, rifle included. Granted i am not a great shot, but hey I can shoot the bfr pretty good. not one hole in two shots in a beer can at 50 yards like some people. I am interested to see what 200 fps and 20 grains of powder will add to the mix.
You are WRONG, those two shots were made at 100 yards. [smilie=1:
I am confident the BFR can hit beer cans at 200 yards or more IF YOU CAN SEE THEM.
It is not often when I say vision is the limit to what a revolver will do but there it is!

[44man]

If you think you'll be clunked in the head, get one of these. :redneck:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360307382453&viewitem=
I love it! [smilie=w:

[44man]

Did you guys see the video of the guy shooting a huge caliber TC where it missed his head but left his hands to fly back about 40 yards?
I still wonder about the damage done to the gun. The range looked like it was all concrete.

[500bfrman]

I do hope my sincerest apologies will be accepted for my unintentional WRONG statement. Where i mistakenly stated it was 50 yards when in fact it was 100 yards. sorry. wasn't trying to take anything away from anyone. Whitworth corrected me and I thought that was sufficient. I see it wasn't and now I officially with all the humility that I have request forgiveness for my incorrect post.

[Frank]

Why the need for all that power? I usually use 44man's load, 26.5 grns W296 with a 400 grn boolit in my BFR .475, but after trying lighter loads, it is so much fun to shoot. Here is one load I have with with a lighter bullet. 50 yds. Put away the wrist breaker and shoot for groups.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2783

[Frank]

Here's another load with the same bullet in the .475. 50 yds. This is with 2400 powder. It had a little more kick, but that's nothing in the BFR. The flier I'm pretty sure happened when I overfluffed the rear bag. A lighter load is less sensitive to bags.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2782

[500bfrman]

for me it doesn't have anything to do with need. I just want to. and if I can shoot it accurately I don't see why not. I still shoot other stuff too. I shoot 44 mag even 10 mm in plastic guns. Also I find it fun to have the challenge of controlling power and getting it to shoot accurately. I will never be able to put two shots in one hole at 100 yards or 50 or 25 probably. but if I can shoot under an inch at 50 yards with a gun producing 3000 fpe per shot I like it. doesn't mean anyone else has to.

[Whitworth]

Why the need for all that power? I usually use 44man's load, 26.5 grns W296 with a 400 grn boolit in my BFR .475, but after trying lighter loads, it is so much fun to shoot. Here is one load I have with with a lighter bullet. 50 yds. Put away the wrist breaker and shoot for groups.

What makes you think I don't shoot for groups with my so-called "wrist breakers?" Shot this at 50 yards recently with my .500 JRH and it was not a plinking load. I don't load down for fun or plinking. I find the one load for the heaviest game, then I take the time to master it. Normally I don't really shoot groups well as I'm not a target shooter. I am a hunter. I am more concerned with placing that all-important first shot. When I shoot a good group, I get lucky, but I will place that first shot.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/P1000585.jpg

If it doesn't recoil a bit, I don't find it interesting, but I seek accuracy first -- I chronograph as a very last step just to satiate my curiosity.

[Whitworth]

I do hope my sincerest apologies will be accepted for my unintentional WRONG statement. Where i mistakenly stated it was 50 yards when in fact it was 100 yards. sorry. wasn't trying to take anything away from anyone. Whitworth corrected me and I thought that was sufficient. I see it wasn't and now I officially with all the humility that I have request forgiveness for my incorrect post.

He's just messin' with you. Don't sweat it!

[Whitworth]

for me it doesn't have anything to do with need. I just want to. and if I can shoot it accurately I don't see why not. I still shoot other stuff too. I shoot 44 mag even 10 mm in plastic guns. Also I find it fun to have the challenge of controlling power and getting it to shoot accurately. I will never be able to put two shots in one hole at 100 yards or 50 or 25 probably. but if I can shoot under an inch at 50 yards with a gun producing 3000 fpe per shot I like it. doesn't mean anyone else has to.

I have to agree. I can certainly get everything done that I need to get done with a .45 Colt, but my .475, .500, etc. all shoot really well because we have taken the time to really develop bullets and loads for them that shoot lights out. They're just so much more fun to shoot and that is my bottom line.

[Frank]

Whitworth said
I don't load down for fun or plinking. I find the one load for the heaviest game, then I take the time to master it.
What is the benefit of a heavier loading for hunting? I thought a WFN boolit even at low speed goes straight through game and isn't recovered.

[Whitworth]

Whitworth said
What is the benefit of a heavier loading for hunting? I thought a WFN boolit even at low speed goes straight through game and isn't recovered.


I will answer a question with a question: What's the point of loading your .475 down to .480 levels?? Might as well just shoot a .480..... I don't have these revolvers to run 'em slow. I get complete pass-throughs at the speeds I run them, but I do feel from observation, that they hit harder when you run them a bit faster -- not Casull faster mind you. I work within the range they were designed for with an emphasis on accuracy. I personally don't have any trouble shooting any of the heavier recoilers (save for the Alaskan), which I will be down-loading, but I won't down load it to .500 Linebaugh levels because that just defeats the purpose. I don't ever load to the max for the sake of velocity -- I let the accuracy dictate the amount of powder.

[jwp475]

Whitworth said
What is the benefit of a heavier loading for hunting? I thought a WFN boolit even at low speed goes straight through game and isn't recovered.



Depends on what you want

[Frank]

If shooting at 480 velocity gives the same game performance as 475 velocity, I'll take the 480 speed hands down. A lighter loaded gun always shoots more accurately. That's why you see .22's and .38's winning bullseye matches, not JRH's and Linebaughs.

On the other hand, you say the faster load hits harder, then that means it gives more performance on game. So if that's true, then there is a need for speed. And I know about too much speed is no good, except of course if you HP the boolit. Then the ole 45-70 beats'em all. And put it in a lever action and it gets even better.

[Whitworth]

If shooting at 480 velocity gives the same game performance as 475 velocity, I'll take the 480 speed hands down. A lighter loaded gun always shoots more accurately. That's why you see .22's and .38's winning bullseye matches, not JRH's and Linebaughs.

On the other hand, you say the faster load hits harder, then that means it gives more performance on game. So if that's true, then there is a need for speed. And I know about too much speed is no good, except of course if you HP the boolit. Then the ole 45-70 beats'em all. And put it in a lever action and it gets even better.


They do produce a bigger splash when you push them a bit harder, but you cannot exceed the capabilities of the cast bullet. You know that the nose starts to lose its shape when you push a cast bullet fast. But I don't consider pushing one in the 1,300 to 1,400 fps range to be too fast. They lose their nose and they don't penetrate as well. I am not advocating Casull or .460 Smith velocities. I personally think that in a .45/70 rifle you tend to exceed the parameters the cast bullet was designed to work within when you get 'em up around 1,800 fps (this is just an example). Then again, if your bullet produces to holes, it's probably good enough!

[500bfrman]

I don't understand why it always has to turn to this. too much power, don't need it grandpa didn't do it like that. who cares? If you don't want to shoot it with some recoil, then don't. Just don't try and tell me to do the same. I never see this on fishing forums, the reel technology is out of this world, and I rarely see someone complaining about it saying just use a cane pole. If someone is shooting 44 special I don't tell them to bump up to 500 smith and wesson. Why do so many threads dealing with magnum calibers revert to this?

[Frank]

When I see people with bloody heads from their revolver hitting them I have to ask why they use that much power for hunting. There is a price to pay, but what is the gain?

[500bfrman]

i will grant you that one.

[Frank]

500bfrman said
i will grant you that one.
Thanks. 8-)

[Whitworth]

When I see people with bloody heads from their revolver hitting them I have to ask why they use that much power for hunting. There is a price to pay, but what is the gain?

That happened with one gun that I have yet to hunt with, and not one of my go-to revolvers. That is precisely why we are loading it down and attempting to make it useable. With the factory BB loads you would hurt yourself in any field shooting position. It can't really be controlled. THAT IS WHY WE ARE LOADING IT DOWN. That said, we are not emasculating it or what would be the point. I agree with 500bfrman -- if you can't handle the recoil, don't shoot it. Personally I get bored if they don't kick a bit. You won't catch me shooting .44 specials out of my .44 magnums. But that's just me.

[cptinjeff]

I don't understand why it always has to turn to this. too much power, don't need it grandpa didn't do it like that. who cares? If you don't want to shoot it with some recoil, then don't. Just don't try and tell me to do the same. I never see this on fishing forums, the reel technology is out of this world, and I rarely see someone complaining about it saying just use a cane pole. If someone is shooting 44 special I don't tell them to bump up to 500 smith and wesson. Why do so many threads dealing with magnum calibers revert to this?

Then your not lisening....(not trying to hi-jak this wonderfull man's man thread)..

I fish sailfish tournaments all the time with the "old timers" who say the skill is gone from the game. They remember when reels did not have any drag and you had to use a leather glove to apply pressure. They talk about the good old days when everybody went for met or club records with the threaded line and tiny hooks. The latest and greatist always needs time (a generation) to become the norm.

(Ok....back to "I want to load my pistol to the point where I cut my head and then back it off a grain or two and call it good!!!"):kidding:


BTW. I love to shoot with some kick also...I just can't afford to own a boomer of my own at the moment!

[Whitworth]

Then your not lisening....(not trying to hi-jak this wonderfull man's man thread)..

I fish sailfish tournaments all the time with the "old timers" who say the skill is gone from the game. They remember when reels did not have any drag and you had to use a leather glove to apply pressure. They talk about the good old days when everybody went for met or club records with the threaded line and tiny hooks. The latest and greatist always needs time (a generation) to become the norm.

(Ok....back to "I want to load my pistol to the point where I cut my head and then back it off a grain or two and call it good!!!"):kidding:


BTW. I love to shoot with some kick also...I just can't afford to own a boomer of my own at the moment!

The barbeque in your avatar looks like it kicks hard! :bigsmyl2:

[cptinjeff]

Depends on how many habeneros or jalepenos are being grilled!:groner:

[Frank]

So what about coastal brown bears in Alaska? Maybe their hide is tough and you need a more powerful round to penetrate. But if they are charging, a lighter load to shoot rapidly under stress and be accurate might be better.

[44man]

Whitworth said
What is the benefit of a heavier loading for hunting? I thought a WFN boolit even at low speed goes straight through game and isn't recovered.
Not so. The .480 is a fine caliber in it's right but the .475 kills faster because of the energy imparted. The .44 kills faster then the .45 with the same weight boolits. It only takes a few hundred fps more for better results. But if you exceed that velocity then you start to poke holes because the boolit goes through an animal too fast, creates a pressure wave from the nose and moves tissue out of the way of the boolit. Going too slow and you don't disrupt tissue enough from energy and get just a hole again.
It is a fine line to walk. Whitworth is a little off about boolit deformation with hard cast. At fast or slow velocities, you NEED some expansion, slow to make a larger hole and fast to slow the boolit to reduce the pressure wave and disrupt more tissue.
I feel between 1300 and 1400 fps is ideal and on either side of that, you need to soften the alloy but without reducing penetration.
You don't want a boolit so hard it breaks if a big bone is hit nor do you want one so soft it stops too quick inside an animal.
The .480 benefits from a little expansion and so does the 45-70 but the .475 needs nothing at all. Neither does the .44 mag. The .500 JRH needs nothing but hard cast. The .500 S&W might need some expansion if too fast.
Some calibers need hard for accuracy so a soft nose and hard shank to take rifling works better.
Take a water dropped WW boolit. At what velocity does it start to expand and kill better? I don't know! Does it ever shatter? I don't think so. How large must an animal be to make fast hard cast work? I don't know! Boolits that fail on deer because they don't expand when shot fast might work fine on a very large animal. Slow that boolit to about 1350 fps and they dump deer. The same thing will dump a buffalo too.
There are points when expansion must be initiated but penetration should never be compromised.

[Frank]

I see. So, too slow means not enough energy, and too fast means too much pressure wave. But a thick animal may require more speed.

[Whitworth]

Not so. The .480 is a fine caliber in it's right but the .475 kills faster because of the energy imparted. The .44 kills faster then the .45 with the same weight boolits. It only takes a few hundred fps more for better results. But if you exceed that velocity then you start to poke holes because the boolit goes through an animal too fast, creates a pressure wave from the nose and moves tissue out of the way of the boolit. Going too slow and you don't disrupt tissue enough from energy and get just a hole again.
It is a fine line to walk. Whitworth is a little off about boolit deformation with hard cast. At fast or slow velocities, you NEED some expansion, slow to make a larger hole and fast to slow the boolit to reduce the pressure wave and disrupt more tissue.
I feel between 1300 and 1400 fps is ideal and on either side of that, you need to soften the alloy but without reducing penetration.
You don't want a boolit so hard it breaks if a big bone is hit nor do you want one so soft it stops too quick inside an animal.
The .480 benefits from a little expansion and so does the 45-70 but the .475 needs nothing at all. Neither does the .44 mag. The .500 JRH needs nothing but hard cast. The .500 S&W might need some expansion if too fast.
Some calibers need hard for accuracy so a soft nose and hard shank to take rifling works better.
Take a water dropped WW boolit. At what velocity does it start to expand and kill better? I don't know! Does it ever shatter? I don't think so. How large must an animal be to make fast hard cast work? I don't know! Boolits that fail on deer because they don't expand when shot fast might work fine on a very large animal. Slow that boolit to about 1350 fps and they dump deer. The same thing will dump a buffalo too.
There are points when expansion must be initiated but penetration should never be compromised.

I'm not off at all about disruption of the nose profile of the bullet. It is easy to exceed what a lead bullet can handle with regards to impact velocity. There are parameters within which they operate at their optimum, and excessive speed will deform the nose -- period. That is why the Punch bullet is so good -- as well as CorBon's Penetrator. No matter how hard you push them the integrity of the nose remains the same and they penetrate well. Hardcast flat-nosed bullets are designed NOT to expand. I don't buy into the pressure wave keeping the bullet from disrupting tissue.

[44man]

I'm not off at all about disruption of the nose profile of the bullet. It is easy to exceed what a lead bullet can handle with regards to impact velocity. There are parameters within which they operate at their optimum, and excessive speed will deform the nose -- period. That is why the Punch bullet is so good -- as well as CorBon's Penetrator. No matter how hard you push them the integrity of the nose remains the same and they penetrate well. Hardcast flat-nosed bullets are designed NOT to expand. I don't buy into the pressure wave keeping the bullet from disrupting tissue.
It does. The punch works at the proper velocity but if too fast it works better on larger animals. My cast boolits will not deform in any way in an animal unless I need to have expansion for too much velocity or too low a velocity.
There is a point of animal size when you need more then penetration and have to have the nose expand. Penetration can not be given up but the boolit must do the most work while passing through the animal. You have seen this with my 45-70 shot deer with boolits too hard and fast while an expanding boolit worked to perfection without a loss of penetration.
I would shoot deer with the punch bullet at 1350 fps but not at 1700 fps.
When you seen intact lungs come out of my deer shot with a hard boolit, too fast, that went 200 yards, you would not shoot a punch bullet at the deer either.
It is fact, shoot a deer with a full metal patch bullet from a rifle or an expanding bullet, what is better? There are velocity points and caliber size points where the nose MUST be disrupted.

[Whitworth]

If the nose deforms on a flat-nosed hardcast like a WFN or an LFN, then you have exceeded the bullet's limitations with velocity. They were not designed to expand in any way, shape, or form, and will cease to penetrate well when this occurs. Of course you are looking for expansion on a thin-skinned animal like deer, but don't compare rifle ballistics to revolver.

I will concede your comment on cavitation.

[44man]

I see. So, too slow means not enough energy, and too fast means too much pressure wave. But a thick animal may require more speed.
Now you have it. Just remember we are not talking about pointy rifle bullets or even round nose bullets. We are talking about revolver boolits with big meplats.
Bullet makers have worked for many years to perfect rifle bullets that are accurate, shoot far, expand just right and not lose penetration.
They make pistol bullets that can open too fast and some that work fine. Shoot the fast opening pistol bullet slower and it works fine.
Shoot it real fast and it is great for a woodchuck but will fail on an elk.

[Whitworth]

Now you have it. Just remember we are not talking about pointy rifle bullets or even round nose bullets. We are talking about revolver boolits with big meplats.
Bullet makers have worked for many years to perfect rifle bullets that are accurate, shoot far, expand just right and not lose penetration.
They make pistol bullets that can open too fast and some that work fine. Shoot the fast opening pistol bullet slower and it works fine.
Shoot it real fast and it is great for a woodchuck but will fail on an elk.

I just know that you didn't just talk about energy! Where is the big can of worms icon when you need it? :bigsmyl2:

[500bfrman]

Then your not lisening....(not trying to hi-jak this wonderfull man's man thread)..

I fish sailfish tournaments all the time with the "old timers" who say the skill is gone from the game. They remember when reels did not have any drag and you had to use a leather glove to apply pressure. They talk about the good old days when everybody went for met or club records with the threaded line and tiny hooks. The latest and greatist always needs time (a generation) to become the norm.

(Ok....back to "I want to load my pistol to the point where I cut my head and then back it off a grain or two and call it good!!!"):kidding:


BTW. I love to shoot with some kick also...I just can't afford to own a boomer of my own at the moment!

ummm i am not real sure but I think I said fishing forums. as in online, like the web. and for it to be equivalent to guns, we would have to have it (the conversation about technology) every time. but I forgot I'm not listening.

[cptinjeff]

ummm i am not real sure but I think I said fishing forums. as in online, like the web. and for it to be equivalent to guns, we would have to have it (the conversation about technology) every time. but I forgot I'm not listening.


To be honest I'm not on any fishing forums so you got me there. The only point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of folks railing against the more modern methods/equipment in fishing too. I see it as a similar argument against the monster bore guns which really sort of backs up the point of your original post. Like I said, I'm all for em and have shot quite a few of them and if I had extra cash I would own one.

[44man]

If the nose deforms on a flat-nosed hardcast like a WFN or an LFN, then you have exceeded the bullet's limitations with velocity. They were not designed to expand in any way, shape, or form, and will cease to penetrate well when this occurs. Of course you are looking for expansion on a thin-skinned animal like deer, but don't compare rifle ballistics to revolver.

I will concede your comment on cavitation.
I feel penetration and some expansion can be balanced with any animal. Boolit weight is still very important and if the nose expands for better killing affect, penetration will not suffer as long as you have weight. Energy means nothing unless it does work inside the animal. But there is no such thing as wasted energy after the boolit passes through if it worked in the animal first. Energy dump is not real either where a boolit stops inside because the dump can occur in only a few inches and fail to work for the entire path of the boolit, mostly when the boolit stops too quick. I don't like the energy figures, I only like boolit work. I like the term "dwell time" best with the right energy during that time. Not enough energy is wrong and so is no dwell time because of too high a velocity. Expand and slow the fast boolit and it does more damage. A good, heavy boolit at the right velocity needs to do nothing but go all the way through.
Strange as it seems, a round .54 caliber ball from a muzzle loader will dump even large animals better then some magnum rifles and it takes a very large bore revolver to match it. The ball is not heavy but flattens, yet keeps going. It will do as much damage in an animal as a .300 mag. The ball will wrap around a bone and take it out causing tremendous internal damage. Energy figures for the ball are sad but they are deadly. It all comes down to what the projectile does inside the animal.
I have found a .45 cal round ball from a cap and ball revolver kills deer faster then a 335 gr from a .45 Colt and I think it is dwell time, not energy. Velocity between the two are almost the same, the ball is 1102 fps and the .45 Colt is 1160 fps. The ball is lighter by far yet kills better and faster however it does not stop and penetrates the deer. The only difference is the ball deforms because it is soft. It's movement through the deer is slower.
There is much more to effectiveness then velocity or energy. It is how it is applied.
The WLN or WFN works in a velocity range you don't want to go too far around.

[ole 5 hole group]

44Man - you did not pay close attention to the 44 vs 45 thread when Master Guns spoke. [smilie=b::bigsmyl2:

Bigger is better and 2 holes is usually better than 1.

The 475 Linebaugh is a thumper for sure but I don't really see where the 480 would take a back seat to it with anything one would encounter in North America.

Whitworth - I worked out a little with the 500L Max today and a 440 grain HC with 32 grains of IMR4227 galloping along at 1,220 fps from an 8" barrel - shoots small groups at 25, 50 and 100 yards with sufficient recoil to keep you awake.

[jwp475]

44man is not making sense again

[jwp475]

44Man - you did not pay close attention to the 44 vs 45 thread when Master Guns spoke. [smilie=b::bigsmyl2:

Bigger is better and 2 holes is usually better than 1.

The 475 Linebaugh is a thumper for sure but I don't really see where the 480 would take a back seat to it with anything one would encounter in North America.




I agree......

[Whitworth]

44Man - you did not pay close attention to the 44 vs 45 thread when Master Guns spoke. [smilie=b::bigsmyl2:

Bigger is better and 2 holes is usually better than 1.

The 475 Linebaugh is a thumper for sure but I don't really see where the 480 would take a back seat to it with anything one would encounter in North America.

Whitworth - I worked out a little with the 500L Max today and a 440 grain HC with 32 grains of IMR4227 galloping along at 1,220 fps from an 8" barrel - shoots small groups at 25, 50 and 100 yards with sufficient recoil to keep you awake.

I agree as well.....

Great to hear that you gave the Max a workout (as well as yourself!)!

[Dill45]

So when you guys are talking about velocities for lead bullets are you talking about impact velocities or muzzle velocities? I've always assumed it was impact velocities, but the way you talk about it it made me second guess myself.

[Whitworth]

So when you guys are talking about velocities for lead bullets are you talking about impact velocities or muzzle velocities? I've always assumed it was impact velocities, but the way you talk about it it made me second guess myself.


Impact velocities......

[Dill45]

Alright that's what I figured, the tone of the talk made it sound like muzzle velocities.

[Whitworth]

Alright that's what I figured, the tone of the talk made it sound like muzzle velocities.

We definitely weren't very clear -- on most of this stuff!! :bigsmyl2:

[cottonstalk]

44man " The .44 kills faster then the .45 with the same weight boolits." Can you prove this under field conditions?I don't think so.I can not speak of larger calibers but the 44 and 45 I have extensive experience with,and the 45 is the better of the two.Load any 300,310,320 bullets in both calibers at the same velocities and there is a difference.

[Whitworth]

44man " The .44 kills faster then the .45 with the same weight boolits." Can you prove this under field conditions?I don't think so.I can not speak of larger calibers but the 44 and 45 I have extensive experience with,and the 45 is the better of the two.Load any 300,310,320 bullets in both calibers at the same velocities and there is a difference.

Diameter, diameter, diameter.......

[jwp475]

44man " The .44 kills faster then the .45 with the same weight boolits." Can you prove this under field conditions?I don't think so.I can not speak of larger calibers but the 44 and 45 I have extensive experience with,and the 45 is the better of the two.Load any 300,310,320 bullets in both calibers at the same velocities and there is a difference.





Diameter, diameter, diameter.......



I'll always take the 45 Colt properly loaded over a 44 mag properly loaded

[500bfrman]

then why do so many resist the 50's?

[44man]

44man is not making sense again
Not really. A pure lead ball seems to do more damage then a hard boolit even if lighter. Use a pure lead 335 gr boolit in the .45 Colt and it would do better but that is hard to get accuracy with and will lead up the bore.
Remember the ball still has enough penetration.
It is the reason I hate muzzle energy figures.
I have killed hundreds of deer with a .45 flintlock and none went anywhere. As the caliber increases to .50 and .54, deer die faster and more internal damage is done. Go to a big, slow .58 Minie' ball and look at what they did to soldiers in the civil war.
A lot has to do with boolit or ball hardness. Energy is still poor compared to modern guns. Work in the animal still is more important.
When I shoot a deer with the .54 round ball, it hits the ground---BANG and even the .475 will not do that unless the spine or brain is hit. A spine hit still will have the deer moving a little but any good hit with the round ball stops all function.
I will forever believe it is how the energy and where the energy is applied to the animal that is important.
Talk averages. I have had to shoot sick dogs and other animals with a .22 where it took more then one shot in the brain yet a deer or cow can drop in it's tracks.
All of our guns have more then enough energy, it is where and how you apply it.
Lets take a 320 gr hard cast at 1100 fps from a .45, 1350 from the .44 and 1650 from a 45-70. What kills better? My bet is the .44. Soften the .45 and 45-70 boolits and all bets are off.
All of you forget distance too. Take the 45-70 at 1650 MV and shoot a deer out far enough that the velocity has dropped to 1300 fps when it hits. Now it works very well. Shoot a deer very close with the .45 at 1100 fps and it also does better.
There are so many variables that nobody can give a conclusive answer.
We are not even talking about where the animal is hit, I don't want to listen to someone that says you must hit the deer 2.35cm from no. 3 rib, get real, we are shooting revolvers off hand!

[Frank]

Whitworth "Diameter, diameter, diameter....... ." He explained that already. Too slow is not enough energy. Diameter wins the middle ground. Too fast and it's too much pressure wave. :coffee:

[44man]

44man " The .44 kills faster then the .45 with the same weight boolits." Can you prove this under field conditions?I don't think so.I can not speak of larger calibers but the 44 and 45 I have extensive experience with,and the 45 is the better of the two.Load any 300,310,320 bullets in both calibers at the same velocities and there is a difference.
You stray too far. It is hard to get the .45 to the same velocity as the .44 with the same weight boolits and maintain accuracy.
I only agree with this if velocity is the same. But the .45 does not have the accuracy needed if pushed to the max and the .44 loses accuracy if under loaded. So while you CAN match them, you give up accuracy with one or the other.
You know for sure I will not load any revolver to max velocity, only max accuracy. That is why my .45 shoots 1160 fps and the .44 shoots 1316 fps. THAT is why there is a difference in killing power.
I should have explained it better. YES the .45 is better at the same velocities but I would rather hit what I shoot at.

[Whitworth]

then why do so many resist the 50's?

Because they fear them......:bigsmyl2:

[Whitworth]

Whitworth "Diameter, diameter, diameter....... ." He explained that already. Too slow is not enough energy. Diameter wins the middle ground. Too fast and it's too much pressure wave. :coffee:


Who exactly explained that? Diameter is the advantage the bigger bores hold over the smaller calibers. Energy is a myth that means absolutely nothing. It's not even measurable, it has to be calulated -- it helps sell ammo to the uninitiated. :coffeecom

[500bfrman]

Because they fear them......:bigsmyl2:

don't be a girly man[smilie=p:

[Whitworth]

don't be a girly man[smilie=p:

Exactly!! 8-)

[jwp475]

You stray too far. It is hard to get the .45 to the same velocity as the .44 with the same weight boolits and maintain accuracy.
I only agree with this if velocity is the same. But the .45 does not have the accuracy needed if pushed to the max and the .44 loses accuracy if under loaded. So while you CAN match them, you give up accuracy with one or the other.
You know for sure I will not load any revolver to max velocity, only max accuracy. That is why my .45 shoots 1160 fps and the .44 shoots 1316 fps. THAT is why there is a difference in killing power.
I should have explained it better. YES the .45 is better at the same velocities but I would rather hit what I shoot at.



This is complete hog wash and nothing more. I shoot a 325 grain LFN at 1375 FPS from my 45 Colt and I have no problem hitting a pop can at 100 yards.

The 45 leave a bigger wound channel that even Ray Charles could see.

You **** that defies logic sometimes

[jwp475]

Who exactly explained that? Diameter is the advantage the bigger bores hold over the smaller calibers. Energy is a myth that means absolutely nothing. It's not even measurable, it has to be calulated -- it helps sell ammo to the uninitiated. :coffeecom



Exactly., This pressure wave in front of the nose of the bullet is some more myth like BS from 44Man. He reaches conclusions not based in fact and totaly incorrect

[jwp475]

You stray too far. It is hard to get the .45 to the same velocity as the .44 with the same weight boolits and maintain accuracy.
I only agree with this if velocity is the same. But the .45 does not have the accuracy needed if pushed to the max and the .44 loses accuracy if under loaded. So while you CAN match them, you give up accuracy with one or the other.
You know for sure I will not load any revolver to max velocity, only max accuracy. That is why my .45 shoots 1160 fps and the .44 shoots 1316 fps. THAT is why there is a difference in killing power.
I should have explained it better. YES the .45 is better at the same velocities but I would rather hit what I shoot at.

That is your revolver and your experience only and is not an across the board fact.

[44man]

Who exactly explained that? Diameter is the advantage the bigger bores hold over the smaller calibers. Energy is a myth that means absolutely nothing. It's not even measurable, it has to be calulated -- it helps sell ammo to the uninitiated. :coffeecom
This I agree with but you always need to compare apples to apples. Take all calibers from .41 to .50 and drive them at the same speed, with the same hardness and the larger the caliber gets, the better.
It is when you introduce variables that it gets sticky. This is where we all differ because all kinds of velocities, hardness, boolit shapes and calibers gets mixed in.

[Whitworth]

This I agree with but you always need to compare apples to apples. Take all calibers from .41 to .50 and drive them at the same speed, with the same hardness and the larger the caliber gets, the better.
It is when you introduce variables that it gets sticky. This is where we all differ because all kinds of velocities, hardness, boolit shapes and calibers gets mixed in.

That's precisely what we were doing. You stated that your .44 kills better than the .45 Colt but that you were running the .44 a couple hundred fps faster. That's not an apple to apple comparison.

[cptinjeff]

You stray too far. It is hard to get the .45 to the same velocity as the .44 with the same weight boolits and maintain accuracy.
I only agree with this if velocity is the same. But the .45 does not have the accuracy needed if pushed to the max and the .44 loses accuracy if under loaded. So while you CAN match them, you give up accuracy with one or the other.
You know for sure I will not load any revolver to max velocity, only max accuracy. That is why my .45 shoots 1160 fps and the .44 shoots 1316 fps. THAT is why there is a difference in killing power.
I should have explained it better. YES the .45 is better at the same velocities but I would rather hit what I shoot at.

This is where you lose me. I think if your are looking for optimum accuracy it would be different from revolver to revolver. "A".45 cal might be more accurate at 1200 and "B" .45 cal at 1300 (and this is only for a given boolit...go up 50g and it could be reversed). Take a .44 round with a 240g wfn and a .45 round with a 250g wfn. The cases are the same length. The .45 has more capacity and makes a bigger hole. No reason in the world why one round would inherently be more accurate at a higher velocity then the other. This is a function of the individual gun (dimensions, alignment, bbl length, etc) and load(boolit, powder, primer, LOA, etc). To claim the .45 won't shoot at those velocities "and hit what you shoot at" is an exaggeration. I know you are just making a point but in reality if you can shoot one round @ 2" at 100 yds and the other @1" at 100 yds they are both quite good for handgun hunting. I'm not claiming "I" can do this but the point is in your world the one round is twice as good as the other but in the real world of handgun hunting they are both beyond fantastically accurate (and deadly).

Teach me the error of my ways.


BTW.....in a effort to stay on topic.....I think the "resistance" to a bigger caliber is more an argument of need (as in how much
"killen" does a deer need?). If the .44 is the .3006 of handguns it will do just fine a we don't need a .500 or 416 nitro to kill a deer. At some point the benefit of a possible quicker kill has diminishing returns with the price of recoil. Now if you want to........Fantastic:drinks: please send me the pics!!!:grin: and a backstrap[smilie=1:

[Whitworth]

This is where you lose me. I think if your are looking for optimum accuracy it would be different from revolver to revolver. "A".45 cal might be more accurate at 1200 and "B" .45 cal at 1300 (and this is only for a given boolit...go up 50g and it could be reversed). Take a .44 round with a 240g wfn and a .45 round with a 250g wfn. The cases are the same length. The .45 has more capacity and makes a bigger hole. No reason in the world why one round would inherently be more accurate at a higher velocity then the other. This is a function of the individual gun (dimensions, alignment, bbl length, etc) and load(boolit, powder, primer, LOA, etc). To claim the .45 won't shoot at those velocities "and hit what you shoot at" is an exaggeration. I know you are just making a point but in reality if you can shoot one round @ 2" at 100 yds and the other @1" at 100 yds they are both quite good for handgun hunting. I'm not claiming "I" can do this but the point is in your world the one round is twice as good as the other but in the real world of handgun hunting they are both beyond fantastically accurate (and deadly).

Teach me the error of my ways.


BTW.....in a effort to stay on topic.....I think the "resistance" to a bigger caliber is more an argument of need (as in how much
"killen" does a deer need?). If the .44 is the .3006 of handguns it will do just fine a we don't need a .500 or 416 nitro to kill a deer. At some point the benefit of a possible quicker kill has diminishing returns with the price of recoil. Now if you want to........Fantastic:drinks: please send me the pics!!!:grin: and a backstrap[smilie=1:

Very well said. I agree completely.

Hey Jeff, not all of us only hunt deer.......:mrgreen:

[cptinjeff]

Wow...it takes me so long to type and spell check....most of my previous post as already been stated much more clearly....sorry for the repetition

[Whitworth]

Wow...it takes me so long to type and spell check....most of my previous post as already been stated much more clearly....sorry for the repetition

It was a good post!

[cptinjeff]

Hey Jeff, not all of us only hunt deer.......:mrgreen:


UNDERSTOOD!!!


If you could see the drool coming down my chin when you post about and post pics of your boomers you would understand my true feelings on the matter!!!:lovebooli

[Whitworth]

UNDERSTOOD!!!


If you could see the drool coming down my chin when you post about and post pics of your boomers you would understand my true feelings on the matter!!!:lovebooli

I hear where you are coming from! Hey, you've got some great hog hunting in your state, you should take full advantage of it! I used to live in FLA and I killed lots of hogs there.......

[cptinjeff]

It was a good post!

Thank you.

[cptinjeff]

I hear where you are coming from! Hey, you've got some great hog hunting in your state, you should take full advantage of it! I used to live in FLA and I killed lots of hogs there.......

I do!;)

[Frank]

Whitworth "Who exactly explained that? Diameter is the advantage the bigger bores hold over the smaller calibers. Energy is a myth that means absolutely nothing. It's not even measurable, it has to be calulated -- it helps sell ammo to the uninitiated."

According to 44man's results, if you have a accuracy point with the 44, that is 200 fps higher then the .45 Colt, then that is more important than a few thousands in diameter. Remember, you were telling me earlier that more speed and recoil was worth it. It hits harder, you said. So why is energy now a myth? I thought you said earlier loading down the .475 made it hit weaker.

I know nothing. I'm just repeating what everybody is saying.

[Whitworth]

Whitworth "Who exactly explained that? Diameter is the advantage the bigger bores hold over the smaller calibers. Energy is a myth that means absolutely nothing. It's not even measurable, it has to be calulated -- it helps sell ammo to the uninitiated."

According to 44man's results, if you have a accuracy point with the 44, that is 200 fps higher then the .45 Colt, then that is more important than a few thousands in diameter. Remember, you were telling me earlier that more speed and recoil was worth it. It hits harder, you said. So why is energy now a myth? I thought you said earlier loading down the .475 made it hit weaker.

I know nothing. I'm just repeating what everybody is saying.

We were comparing the same diameter calibers, or did you miss that? We talked .480 vs .475. Ironically, I have found that when developing loads in a given caliber, the hotter loads tend to be more accurate. So, why load down. Accuracy should be the biggest priority.

44man's results aren't the only results out there and in fact I know many folks who's end results differ significantly from 44man's. There is nothing inherently inaccurate when you increase the velocity of a .45 Colt and suggesting that it is, is absurd.

Energy has always been a myth, that is perpetuated by ammo manufacturers to sell more of it. I have hunted rather extensivley with my .458 Lott and .416 Remington. They both "generate" in an excess of 5,000 ft-lbs of ME. On like sized game they don't kill any faster or do more internal damage than my .475 Linebaugh which will "generate" 1,700 ft-lbs on a good day. It's a real poor indicator of killing power/effectiveness on game. Any and all factory .454 ammo generates a calculated higher ME than the .500 Linebaugh. Which one is the bigger and more effective hammer on large game??

[44man]

That is your revolver and your experience only and is not an across the board fact.
That is why it is hard to explain. If your .45 is accurate when shot the same speed as the .44, you do better then the .44. Mine are not accurate enough if I speed them up.
I refuse to load any gun to max speed only, I load 100% for accuracy first.
Nothing more disgusting then 10" patterns at 100 yards and a guy keeps shooting at deer that far thinking the velocity is the answer.
I have dropped deer in their tracks at 100 with my .45 but on the average, it takes lung shot deer a little longer to die then those hit with the faster .44. Those hit with the much faster 45-70 go 200 yards with poor blood trails.
Now there is not a thing wrong with each caliber and is where alloy changes turn all of it around. With the right boolit the 45-70 can turn a deer into red mist but that is too drastic with meat loss. The .45 can also do that and is why I say you need to tailor the boolit to your gun and velocity.
Forget velocity, find accuracy and then make the boolit work. I just don't know how anyone can argue with that? :Fire: Forget all the energy figures because with the wrong boolit you will fail.
Remember we talk revolvers, not rifles with tons of energy but done right, the revolver kills as fast.
Larger is better if you compare apple to apples but I would choose a .44 at 1350 fps over a .50 at 800 fps. Bring the .50 to 1350 fps and "Look out deer." That is with hard boolits, just maybe a pure lead boolit from the .50 could do better at 800 fps.
Soften just the nose on a .45 at 1160 fps and it will dump a deer as fast as a hard boolit from the .44 at 1350 fps.
Alloy, alloy, alloy, boolit work.

[44man]

"44man's results aren't the only results out there and in fact I know many folks who's end results differ significantly from 44man's. There is nothing inherently inaccurate when you increase the velocity of a .45 Colt and suggesting that it is, is absurd."
That always depends on the gun. Once the best accuracy is found, any increase in the powder will result in larger groups. Just like any other gun. Trying to reach max velocity can result in a useless hunting gun. It is never worth it. You just can't get .454 velocities from a .45 and hit anything.
It is no different then the .44 where too fast is no good. Some bullets shoot best at max for sure but some bullets can't even reach max without sticking brass. Some can go over max but accuracy goes away.
Working loads always has groups get smaller and then start to open again. One should always back down to the best groups.
Yes, the .45 can blow groups if loaded too hot. You will not keep accuracy while you add more powder.
Boolit and twist matched to velocity. To say it is absurd is wrong. [smilie=s:

[Whitworth]

"44man's results aren't the only results out there and in fact I know many folks who's end results differ significantly from 44man's. There is nothing inherently inaccurate when you increase the velocity of a .45 Colt and suggesting that it is, is absurd."
That always depends on the gun. Once the best accuracy is found, any increase in the powder will result in larger groups. Just like any other gun. Trying to reach max velocity can result in a useless hunting gun. It is never worth it. You just can't get .454 velocities from a .45 and hit anything.
It is no different then the .44 where too fast is no good. Some bullets shoot best at max for sure but some bullets can't even reach max without sticking brass. Some can go over max but accuracy goes away.
Working loads always has groups get smaller and then start to open again. One should always back down to the best groups.
Yes, the .45 can blow groups if loaded too hot. You will not keep accuracy while you add more powder.
Boolit and twist matched to velocity. To say it is absurd is wrong. [smilie=s:

You're just confirming what I just said -- depends on the gun and a myriad of other factors, but you made a general statement that didn't take these factors into consideration.

[jwp475]

This I agree with but you always need to compare apples to apples. Take all calibers from .41 to .50 and drive them at the same speed, with the same hardness and the larger the caliber gets, the better.
It is when you introduce variables that it gets sticky. This is where we all differ because all kinds of velocities, hardness, boolit shapes and calibers gets mixed in.



That is what we have stated through out it was you that stated that a 44 killed better than a 45, which is absurd

[jwp475]

I suggest that 44MAn do some rasearch and learn a bit and I recomened this book by Duncan MacPhearson. Duncan has the only math model that accurately predicts the dpth of peneteation and wound channel size. That has been proven to be accurate by Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Assc.


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DuncanMacPhearson.jpg


Your assumptions and across the board claims miss the mark by a wide margin.

[jwp475]

Whitworth "Who exactly explained that? Diameter is the advantage the bigger bores hold over the smaller calibers. Energy is a myth that means absolutely nothing. It's not even measurable, it has to be calulated -- it helps sell ammo to the uninitiated."

According to 44man's results, if you have a accuracy point with the 44, that is 200 fps higher then the .45 Colt, then that is more important than a few thousands in diameter. Remember, you were telling me earlier that more speed and recoil was worth it. It hits harder, you said. So why is energy now a myth? I thought you said earlier loading down the .475 made it hit weaker.

I know nothing. I'm just repeating what everybody is saying.


The transfer of energy in a bullet strike is indeed a BS myth of galactic proportions.
There are two types of collisions "Elastic" and "Inelastic" both momentum and energy are transferred in elastic collisions. An elastic collision id when the colliding bodies both remain in motion. A perfect inelastic collision the colliding bodies stick together and only momentum is transferred. Momentum is transferred in ALL COLLISIONS. A bullet strikes is not a perfect inelastic collision. With an inelastic collision, MOST OF THE ENERGY IS TRANSFORM INTO OTHER FORMS OF ENERGY MOSTLY THERMAL. The small amount of energy that is transferred is untraceable and unimportant


Anyone that refers to "energy transfer" when speaking of terminal performance is off the mark by a wide margin. A 22 caliber 55 grain bullet at 3600 FPS has slightly more energy than a 360 grain 45 caliber bullet at 1400 FPS. If faced with a charging Grizzly I know exactly which one that I am choosing. HINT, it ain't the 55 grain slug. Despite the most energy it has much less momentum and that is a major difference

[Frank]

Hey, I was the first one in this thread to ask, "Why the need for all that power?" This is the reply I got from Whitworth.

If it doesn't recoil a bit, I don't find it interesting
and this one

I do feel from observation, that they hit harder when you run them a bit faster
That was Whitworth's response to my question. So, what does it mean, hit harder , if it doesn't mean more speed and resulting energy to transfer? Or maybe the feeling hitting harder is purely psychological. He can feel the recoil, so it must be really knocking them down. Big cannons make for better articles in gun rags. :popcorn:

[Dill45]

Well one of the nice things about big cannons is you can load them down...and usually with less recoil, you can put a bigger bullet move either slightly faster or slightly slower than say a .357 or 44 mag.

400gr LRN bullet out of a Smith 500 traveling at 900 FPS will go through and through a whole heck of a lot of things, yet the recoil is more like that of a 38 or light 357.

[jwp475]

Hey, I was the first one in this thread to ask, "Why the need for all that power?" This is the reply I got from Whitworth.

and this one

That was Whitworth's response to my question. So, what does it mean, hit harder , if it doesn't mean more speed and resulting energy to transfer? Or maybe the feeling hitting harder is purely psychological. He can feel the recoil, so it must be really knocking them down. Big cannons make for better articles in gun rags. :popcorn:

Are you kidding me or are you that obtuse? I explained in the post above you the fallacy of "energy transfer" and you come back with this BS post. Obviously if the bullet is faster then it has more MOMENTUM to transfer and the increased speed also creates more "hydraulic pressure" which is the correct term, not hydrostatic shock".

The ballistics pendulum measure MOMENTUM TRANSFER and from this measurement one can figure the velocity and the calculate the energy. NOTICE IT DOES NOT MEASURE ENERGY TRANSFER< BECAUSE THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE

[Whitworth]

Hey, I was the first one in this thread to ask, "Why the need for all that power?" This is the reply I got from Whitworth. [smilie=l:

and this one

That was Whitworth's response to my question. So what does it mean, hit harder if it doesn't mean more speed and energy?

Recoil is something I rather enjoy. I stated as much. You're shooting a .500 something or another, it should kick, shouldn't it? There's a a sense of satisfaction mastering one of these big caliber revolvers and being able to shoot it well. Some find the recoil of the .44 mag to be debilitating. Me, not so much.

Momentum is transfered, energy is not. More is transferred (momentum) with more velocity. The only way I can quantify "hitting harder" is by the physical reaction of game, I have witnesses on many occasions when I have shot it with my .475. If I slap you softly open handed, you won't get hurt, but if I wind up and clock you, with much greater velocity you will react much differently. This is very basic and simple.

Now I have to ask if you own any big-bore revolvers? Do you hunt with them? How do you tend to load them (bullet weight, type of bullets, velocity, etc.)? Just curious.

I also have to ask if your pulling my leg. Are you?

[Whitworth]

Are you kidding me or are you that obtuse? I explained in the post above you the fallacy of "energy transfer" and you come back with this BS post. Obviously if the bullet is faster then it has more MOMENTUM to transfer and the increased speed also creates more "hydraulic pressure" which is the correct term, not hydrostatic shock".

The ballistics pendulum measure MOMENTUM TRANSFER and from this measurement one can figure the velocity and the calculate the energy. NOTICE IT DOES NOT MEASURE ENERGY TRANSFER< BECAUSE THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE

Exactly, jwp!

[donjose]

I just think sometimes we can make things much harder than they need to be :)


Jason

[jwp475]

+1....

[Whitworth]

I just think sometimes we can make things much harder than they need to be :)


Jason

You can say that again!

[Frank]

Whitworth "Energy isn't transferred."

I agree that momentum is also transfered. But primarily it's energy, kinetic energy which is transferred to the wound channel. Energy from the bullet is used to do work, or make damage on the animal. Here's from Wikipedia on the topic Physics of Firearms and I quote:

Transfer of Energy
When the bullet strikes, its high velocity and small frontal cross-section means that it will exert large stresses in any object it hits. This usually results in it penetrating any soft object, such as flesh. The energy is then dissipated in the wound track formed by the passage of the bullet. See terminal ballistics for a fuller discussion of these effects.



jwp said
Are you kidding me or are you that obtuse? I explained in the post above you the fallacy of "energy transfer" and you come back with this BS post. Obviously if the bullet is faster then it has more MOMENTUM to transfer and the increased speed also creates more "hydraulic pressure" which is the correct term, not hydrostatic shock".

The ballistics pendulum measure MOMENTUM TRANSFER and from this measurement one can figure the velocity and the calculate the energy. NOTICE IT DOES NOT MEASURE ENERGY TRANSFER< BECAUSE THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE

jwp, I think you are talking about Stopping Power. I agree that an animal being stopped isn't only dependent on energy transfer. Because energy transfer is one theory among others, such as Hydrostatic shock and a few others. Here's the article from Wikipedia on Stopping Power and I quote:


Energy transfer
The energy transfer hypothesis states that the more energy that is transferred to the target, the greater the destructive potential.

In ballistics, energy is a function of mass and the square of velocity. Generally speaking, it is the intention of the shooter to deliver an adequate amount of energy to the target via the projectile/s. Projectiles such as rifle bullets, high velocity handgun bullets and shotgun slugs can over-penetrate. Projectiles such as handgun bullets and shot can under-penetrate. Projectiles that reach the target with too low a velocity or bird shot may not penetrate at all. All the above conditions affect energy transfer.



But they also talk about Hydrostatic shock. Again, from the article and I quote:


Hydrostatic shock
Hydrostatic shock is a theory of terminal ballistics that wounding effects are created by a shock wave in the tissues of the target. Evidence of such shock can be seen in ultra-high-speed images of supersonic bullets passing through various objects such as fruit; the fruit explodes due to the shock waves caused by the bullet passing through at high speed. Damage to the brain from hydrostatic shock from a shot to the chest occurs in humans with most rifle cartridges and some higher-velocity handgun cartridges.[5]



But there is more to stopping power than both energy transfer and hydrostatic shock. According to the same article on stopping power, there is also 'knockback, one-shot stop, big-hole school, body mass, motivation level of animal', etc.

Hey guys. Thanks for the physics lesson. [smilie=s: That was fun. Need a re-fill. :popcorn:

[Whitworth]

Kinetic energy is transferred to the wound channel? I would suggest a better and more credible source of information about terminal ballistics than Wikepedia.

You didn't answer my questions, Frank.

[Frank]

Whitworth "Now I have to ask if you own any big-bore revolvers? Do you hunt with them? How do you tend to load them (bullet weight, type of bullets, velocity, etc.)? Just curious."

"I also have to ask if your pulling my leg. Are you?"

I own 2 BFR's, 475 and 45-70. I don't know if they qualify as big bores. Maybe you can help me out with that one. I don't hunt. I target shoot. I cast and reload my own ammo. Do you? If I hunted, I would be posting in the Hunting with Cast Boolits section. But for what I do, cast, reload and shoot revolvers, I can be here in this section. Right? The hunting section is down the hall. :cbpour:

How do I load them? Any way I can to obtain the best possible accuracy with the least amount of energy. I can handle the recoil of what the BFR's are capable. Punishment wise, the gun is the limitation, not me! But it may be that they are more accurate at the medium or even lower end. What kind of animal would I ever need to hunt in North America that would require the highest pressure loads the BFR can handle? I don't concern myself unless I need to. But I can easily shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yds all day long with both BFR's off the bench, whatever the BFR can handle. But I have to ask. Why do I need to pulverize the sand behind the target? For hunting, seems to me, if the hard cast boolit will go end to end in a Cape Buffalo at 1530 fps muzzle velocity with a trapdoor load, 45-70, then why do I need Marlin level loads? If that's needed, then I'll do what I have to do. But for now, it's just a waste of powder for what I'm doing.

Go ahead and enjoy your recoil. Plow away. Maybe you should get one of those Derringers with the 45-70 cartridge and master one of those at the upper end loads. Now that would be an accomplishment. But before you do that, make sure you get a helmet - see earlier post. They are camo colored and just look fabulous! Maybe when the deer in WV see you with that on, they'll come in closer for another look and you can make the shot. :bigsmyl2:

[Whitworth]

Whitworth "Now I have to ask if you own any big-bore revolvers? Do you hunt with them? How do you tend to load them (bullet weight, type of bullets, velocity, etc.)? Just curious."

"I also have to ask if your pulling my leg. Are you?"

I own 2 BFR's, 475 and 45-70. I don't know if they qualify as big bores. Maybe you can help me out with that one. I don't hunt. I target shoot. I cast and reload my own ammo. Do you? If I hunted, I would be posting in the Hunting with Cast Boolits section. But for what I do, cast, reload and shoot revolvers, I can be here in this section. Right? The hunting section is down the hall. :cbpour:

How do I load them? Any way I can to obtain the best possible accuracy with the least amount of energy. I can handle the recoil of what the BFR's are capable. Punishment wise, the gun is the limitation, not me! But it may be that they are more accurate at the medium or even lower end. What kind of animal would I ever need to hunt in North America that would require the highest pressure loads the BFR can handle? I don't concern myself unless I need to. But I can easily shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yds all day long with both BFR's off the bench, whatever the BFR can handle. But I have to ask. Why do I need to pulverize the sand behind the target? For hunting, seems to me, if the hard cast boolit will go end to end in a Cape Buffalo at 1530 fps muzzle velocity with a trapdoor load, 45-70, then why do I need Marlin level loads? If that's needed, then I'll do what I have to do. But for now, it's just a waste of powder for what I'm doing.

Go ahead and enjoy your recoil. Plow away. Maybe you should get one of those Derringers with the 45-70 cartridge and master one of those at the upper end loads. Now that would be an accomplishment. But before you do that, make sure you get a helmet - see earlier post. They are camo colored and just look fabulous! Maybe when the deer in WV see you with that on, they'll come in closer for another look and you can make the shot. :bigsmyl2:

Now you're just being petulent.

Yes, both of those revolvers are big-bores, and fine big-bores at that. 44man has a .45/70 and .475 BFR and they are extremely accurate and have put down a lot of game. He doesn't down-load them, though. I guess if you've just punching paper......

Yes, this isn't the hunting section, but we didn't develop loads for the .500 JRH to target shoot.

Yes I do cast and reload. Did you not see the opening thread here by 44man? This thread came out of a load developing session of ours. Yes, he is a very good friend of mine, but on some topics we don't agree, but it's no big deal.

Who is advocating high-pressure loads? We are loading all of these revolvers below SAAMI maximums. We operate them where they were designed to operate, so what seems to be the problem?

So, you don't hunt. Then why do you keep chiming in here? West Virginia deer -- yup, every November I head there to hunt deer, then I head to North Carolina or Pennsylvania. Then I'll take a break and in the spring I'll start hunting hogs again and testing loads and firearms down south.

Oh, and maybe if someone made a derringer in .45/70 I would buy one, but it probably wouldn't be that practical.

[jwp475]

jwp, I think you are talking about Stopping Power. I agree that an animal being stopped isn't only dependent on energy transfer. Because energy transfer is one theory among others, such as Hydrostatic shock and a few others. Here's the article from Wikipedia on Stopping Power and I quote:


Quote:
Energy transfer
The energy transfer hypothesis states that the more energy that is transferred to the target, the greater the destructive potential.

In ballistics, energy is a function of mass and the square of velocity. Generally speaking, it is the intention of the shooter to deliver an adequate amount of energy to the target via the projectile/s. Projectiles such as rifle bullets, high velocity handgun bullets and shotgun slugs can over-penetrate. Projectiles such as handgun bullets and shot can under-penetrate. Projectiles that reach the target with too low a velocity or bird shot may not penetrate at all. All the above conditions affect energy transfer.







You need to go to a physic site and learn a bit, because in an inelastic collision ENERGY SI MOST CERTAINLY NOT TRANSFERED, IT IS TRANSFORMED. This is basic physics and is apparently not understood by the firearms public. ENERGY IS MASS IN MOTION, WITHOUT MOTION THERE IS NO KINETIC ENRGY or transfer possible.

The 3 elements that are responsible for the wound channel are the amount of momentum transferred, the amount of direct applied pressure and the amount of hydraulic pressure created.

You should get a copy of this book. It is very informative


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DuncanMacPhearson.jpg



http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Energy.jpg

[Whitworth]

But before you do that, make sure you get a helmet - see earlier post. They are camo colored and just look fabulous!

Actually I did look fabulous in my camouflaged helmet when I was a young Marine.

[jwp475]

Actually I did look fabulous in my camouflaged helmet when I was a young Marine.

You looking fabulous at any age is simply impossible to fathom

[Whitworth]

You looking fabulous at any age is simply impossible to fathom

Coming from you, one must consider the source.......:bigsmyl2:

[jwp475]

Coming from you, one must consider the source.......:bigsmyl2:

The source is you and looking fabulous is not possible,

[Whitworth]

The source is you and looking fabulous is not possible,

Again, one must consider the source of the commentary (the peanut gallery).......:bigsmyl2:

[jwp475]

Post a picture and let the forum memebers decide if you are in "fabulous looking". Care to wager on the outcome??? I thought not.

[Whitworth]

Post a picture and let the forum memebers decide if you are in "fabulous looking". Care to wager on the outcome??? I thought not.

Jeez, jwp, have you ever looked in a mirror? "Fabulous," is a relative term. [smilie=l:

Did you lose your phone again, jwp?

[jwp475]

I never claimed to look fabulous, that is your bogus claim.

Yep, I did

[Whitworth]

I never claimed to look fabulous, that is your bogus claim.

Yep, I did

LOL!! :bigsmyl2:

[cottonstalk]

Well I've seen you whit and pics of JWP and both would keep the flies away.Now I never said I was not the same myself before you two get wound up.

[Whitworth]

Well I've seen you whit and pics of JWP and both would keep the flies away.Now I never said I was not the same myself before you two get wound up.

LOL! Too dang funny! Have we derailed this thread enough?

[jwp475]

I agree, I never seen a good looking man, now on the other hand Women are fabulous looking for sure and for certain

[Whitworth]

I agree, I never seen a good looking man, now on the other hand Women are fabulous looking for sure and for certain

Some women.......

Did you find your phone yet?

[Frank]

Well good luck with the new BFR. It looks like a lot of fun.

[44man]

That's precisely what we were doing. You stated that your .44 kills better than the .45 Colt but that you were running the .44 a couple hundred fps faster. That's not an apple to apple comparison.
It is EXACTLY what I said, I was NOT comparing apples to apples unless I make the .45 shoot the same velocity of the .44 and then the .45 would be better.
Sorry, JWP, but my .45 will not shoot good at 1350 fps so I stay at the velocity I am at.
Also, what other explanation can you come up with for the hard WFN not doing enough damage if driven too fast? It HAS to be a larger secondary wound channel that collapses. Slow the WFN to 1350 fps and the primary channel will be very large.
Seems to me that some expansion will disrupt the pressure wave and reduce the secondary channel, putting more tissue in harms way.
Sure, I sit here and think but I also look inside every animal. I hate to see healthy lungs with a little hole through them, I would rather they poured out in a big glob.

[jwp475]

What are you calling a secondary channel? The higher the velocity the higher the momentum, direct applied pressure and hydraulic pressure. Calaimimg a smaller wound channel at higher velocity defies logic and basic terminal ballistics

[44man]

What are you calling a secondary channel? The higher the velocity the higher the momentum, direct applied pressure and hydraulic pressure. Calaimimg a smaller wound channel at higher velocity defies logic and basic terminal ballistics
It is the flat nose! Pressure waves coming off of it gets wider as velocity is increased and forces tissue away from the boolit. A little expansion at the higher velocities will disrupt that wave, slow the boolit and make a larger primary wound.
A very large animal or a little longer distance also corrects it.
The secondary wound is like getting punched where you will get black and blue but the primary does the tissue damage. That is where the energy is concentrated. Very little compared to a rifle.
I figure this ONLY from looking inside the animals.
A softer hollow point makes a nasty amount of destruction at the same speed as a hard WFN, so ask why and what happens.
I really hate paper figures and prefer to dig into the deer.
It is still what a boolit does when it hits an animal and how the energy is utilized, I can't see any dispute about that.
The hard WLN and WFN are wonderful at the point they were designed for but don't expect them to work much beyond either side unless you start expansion.
You can NOT compare a buf with a deer or a deer with a fox.

[jwp475]

First off using energy to qualify lethality is an exercise in futility. Energy is transformed into other forms of energy in an inelastic collision which is what a bullet strike is. The faster a bullet is driven the more direct applied pressure, the more momentum and the higher the hydraulic pressure. All of these factors add to the size of the wound channel.

I have never ever seen more velocity with the same caliber create smaller wounds. That is not possible

[donjose]

Cant we all just get along :)

[Whitworth]

Cant we all just get along :)

In a word, no. :bigsmyl2:

[500bfrman]

Cant we all just get along :)

what fun would that be?

[Frank]

Borrow from the good advice, weed out what doesn't prove corect and do your own work and testing. And don't believe anybody! [smilie=1:

[jwp475]

I agree that it is important to separate the wheat from the chaff, but "believe no one" that is a bit harsh

[Whitworth]

Borrow from the good advice, weed out what doesn't prove corect and do your own work and testing. And don't believe anybody! [smilie=1:

How can one borrow from the good advice and still believe nobody? This is contradictory. Granted, the annonymity of the internet has created many "experts," but there are plenty people who participate here that are credible. This is a very good website.

[500bfrman]

perhaps what is meant by "don't believe anybody" is that we should not just take it for granted, but test it for ourselves and see if it is true.

[jwp475]

Testing for ones self is never a bad thing, IMHO.

[Whitworth]

perhaps what is meant by "don't believe anybody" is that we should not just take it for granted, but test it for ourselves and see if it is true.


Perhaps you are right.

[44man]

perhaps what is meant by "don't believe anybody" is that we should not just take it for granted, but test it for ourselves and see if it is true.
That is the best way to say it. The reason is many shoot different animals.

[Frank]

Yeah, sure love my crazy, crazy BFR. I'm going to cast up some 330 grn HP's from my crazy, crazy BABore mold using 50/50 Pure/WW's and try them on some water jugs next. This is going to be a fun project. Then maybe I can get the varmint caller out and go find some critters. :Fire:

[44man]

Yeah, sure love my crazy, crazy BFR. I'm going to cast up some 330 grn HP's from my crazy, crazy BABore mold using 50/50 Pure/WW's and try them on some water jugs next. This is going to be a fun project. Then maybe I can get the varmint caller out and go find some critters. :Fire:
If you want to catch the boolit, have a LOT of jugs! :holysheep

[Whitworth]

Yeah, sure love my crazy, crazy BFR. I'm going to cast up some 330 grn HP's from my crazy, crazy BABore mold using 50/50 Pure/WW's and try them on some water jugs next. This is going to be a fun project. Then maybe I can get the varmint caller out and go find some critters. :Fire:

Kill a deer or two -- 'tis the season.......

[Frank]

44man "If you want to catch the boolit, have a LOT of jugs!"

I want to see how soon they open up. Here's from yesterdays cast. BH came out to 16. They all weigh remarkably within a few tenths of a grain.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2827 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2825

[Frank]

Here's what the boolit does out of the Marlin 1895G at 100 yds. I've only fired 7 shots off the bench ever with this combo and here is the group. [smilie=p: I shoot this rifle with a trapdoor power level like a 22-250, bean bag under the butt, bipod on the front. I could hit a small mouse at 200 yds if I needed to. It's so accurate it's borrrrring!!!! :smile:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2828

[44man]

I can't wait to see some jug shooting. I know you will get wet! :veryconfu
Have enough to catch one.

[Frank]

I'm going to try Glen Fryxell's method of catching a HP. He used a 2L bottle layed down lengthwise with a stack of wet fish wrap on the back with fresh tape each time. Then you can measure the diameter to see how it opens.

[44man]

I'm going to try Glen Fryxell's method of catching a HP. He used a 2L bottle layed down lengthwise with a stack of wet fish wrap on the back with fresh tape each time. Then you can measure the diameter to see how it opens.
Sorry, that is not enough. It was for what he was shooting, but not for a real gun.
Did he mention the amount of "fish wrap"? Better start with about 3 feet of the stuff.

[Frank]

Fryxell says his standard test is 6-8" of dry paper. He used a .35 caliber 200 grn HP at 2100 fps in his article, but he also lists 330 HP for the 45-70 as a viable option for big game.

[44man]

Fryxell says his standard test is 6-8" of dry paper. He used a .35 caliber 200 grn HP at 2100 fps in his article, but he also lists 330 HP for the 45-70 as a viable option for big game.
Dry paper will stop a boolit but it can also not allow it to expand. It is like shooting into wood.
Here are three bullets, the left shot into wood, the middle XTP shot into rubber mulch and the right was an XTP shot into only water.

[Frank]

I'm very excited about the BABore HP. I casted this out of 50/50 and look what it did for me today at 50 yds. On the left is a 5-shot group shot with the BFR 45-70. On the right is a 6-shot group with another plainbase design that was a hard alloy. I'm anxious to do the water test, but I'm sure that at this velocity, there will be expansion and penetration. Can you say boooolits! :cbpour:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2884

[44man]

When I see people with bloody heads from their revolver hitting them I have to ask why they use that much power for hunting. There is a price to pay, but what is the gain?
I agree and is why I love the JRH. It is controllable and deadly accurate. Is it needed for deer? Heck no, the .44 still works.
But there really is a difference in the way the big calibers kill at the same velocity as the .44 and they also shoot the big boolits flatter at range with less velocity loss. There is so much more to them but to go any larger then the JRH is not needed.
The one thing I like is the ease to find that accuracy over smaller calibers. I don't know why unless it is the brass diameters and case tension evenness but they really are easy to work with.
It takes one range session to make the .475 and JRH to sit up and talk where it might take a year to get a .357 to do what you want. Picky, picky about a bullet and load. Then after all the work you find the bullet is wrong for hunting.
Just what kind of bullet will not work in the bigger calibers unless you insist on soft hollow points?
Besides that, they are fun to shoot just because of the accuracy. They don't need shot for thousands of rounds because you will know that when you shoot once, the boolit goes to the sights.
Sorry, I have learned to love the larger calibers within limits, just too much. I can't wait for Whitworth to pop his first deer with the JRH.

[Frank]

After owning the .475, I have to wonder about the .500 JRH. I'm sure it is a very usable caliber and you guys make it work, but it is still a pistol caliber and has limitations. For example, in my .475 I have to pound out brass even after dropping the powder charge one grain. It never did that before. Maybe it's a brass issue. Still struggling. On the other hand, the 45-70 is very low maintenance. The cartridge can be loaded to various power levels as needed and the cases and gun never show signs of stress. W296 is a dirty powder, relative to what you use in the 45-70. I can show you two guns, the one shot 3X as much is cleaner. The pistol caliber gun is black everywhere. My point or question, is Maybe the JRH too much of a good thing? Will it have similar issues I have in the .475? Anyway, Good Luck.

[44man]

After owning the .475, I have to wonder about the .500 JRH. I'm sure it is a very usable caliber and you guys make it work, but it is still a pistol caliber and has limitations. For example, in my .475 I have to pound out brass even after dropping the powder charge one grain. It never did that before. Maybe it's a brass issue. Still struggling. On the other hand, the 45-70 is very low maintenance. The cartridge can be loaded to various power levels as needed and the cases and gun never show signs of stress. W296 is a dirty powder, relative to what you use in the 45-70. I can show you two guns, the one shot 3X as much is cleaner. The pistol caliber gun is black everywhere. My point or question, is Maybe the JRH too much of a good thing? Will it have similar issues I have in the .475? Anyway, Good Luck.
Sticky cases just need a load reduction.
I agree that the 45-70 with 4759 is the cleanest revolver I ever shot. Cases still shine. I have not even found a speck of lube on brass.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't know Frank - I've shot some pretty hot loads in my two 475L's and my brass just falls out. Can't imagine taking any more pain than that just to see if I can get to the point of sticking cases.:grin: Are you taking 400 grainers over 1,400fps or what?

I've pushed real close to the 1,500fps barrier with 440 & 460 grain HC with the 500JRH and the cases just fell out but the recoil was on the stout side to say the least. After load testing I don't venture into that terroritory unless there's a need and I haven't had a "need" lately and doubt if I'll look for one.

[Frank]

ole 5 hole group said
I don't know Frank - I've shot some pretty hot loads in my two 475L's and my brass just falls out. Can't imagine taking any more pain than that just to see if I can get to the point of sticking cases. :D Are you taking 400 grainers over 1,400fps or what?

No, the Lee chronograps at 1290 fps with 26.5 grns W296. I get sticky cases even with 26 grns. If I go lower, groups open up. I had a few Montant Bullets 420 grns to plink with, Hornady brass, 26.0 grn W296 and I just today took the cylinder off and used a wood dowel to get the 3 stuck ones out. Like 44man said, don't break the extractor. One good thing about a SA is you can easily take the cylinder off and get them out. I have a new box of Hornady brass I can try. Maybe it's the brass?

I can see the difference between the HP and others. Devastating terminal effects. Coffee cans have large entrance and exit holes. Lead dust splatter. No such thing as a neat hole anymore.

[44man]

I have one boolit that will stick cases at the most accurate load. I must reduce it and accept the small loss of accuracy.
Now another boolit almost the same and the same weight will take MORE powder without a sign of sticking.
It is something I can't explain. All the same lead and hardness. Only difference is the one that needs reduced is a gas checked.

[bbailey7821]

So, would you recommend your BFR over a SW?

[crabo]

Bet you a dollar he will...

[Whitworth]

Bet you a dollar he will...

Bet you two dollars I will too! BFRs are hard to beat for the money. That said, the .500 JRH BFR is a "normally sized" revolver unlike either the extended frame BFR or the X-frame Smith.

[44man]

ole 5 hole group said
No, the Lee chronograps at 1290 fps with 26.5 grns W296. I get sticky cases even with 26 grns. If I go lower, groups open up. I had a few Montant Bullets 420 grns to plink with, Hornady brass, 26.0 grn W296 and I just today took the cylinder off and used a wood dowel to get the 3 stuck ones out. Like 44man said, don't break the extractor. One good thing about a SA is you can easily take the cylinder off and get them out. I have a new box of Hornady brass I can try. Maybe it's the brass?

I can see the difference between the HP and others. Devastating terminal effects. Coffee cans have large entrance and exit holes. Lead dust splatter. No such thing as a neat hole anymore.
I just checked my book and get 1362 fps with that load using the 400 gr Lee.

[44man]

So, would you recommend your BFR over a SW?
Darn tootin! :holysheep

[Frank]

44man: "I just checked my book and get 1362 fps with that load using the 400 gr Lee."

See, all guns are different.

[500bfrman]

It seems to me, and this is just my experience. but you pretty much have to get a performance center s/w to equal a bfr as far as the fitness and tightness. and the bfrs run around 850. if you look you can get them cheaper, both of my last two were 750 out the door. and I have both so I am not just saying s/w stinks, I actually like them, but the bfrs are better.

[44man]

Hey fellas, we did it again today. I shot a beer can at 100 yards and Marko shot it with the next shot. One hole in and out. We had the can on a small stick and we could see it move.
This time with my BFR .475.

[frankenfab]

I just read this whole thread again.......................:bigsmyl2:

Now I have wheels turning trying to figure out how I can juggle finances around and get one of the .50 AE BFR's from CDNN and have a .500 JRH cylinder put in.

[Whiterabbit]

So, would you recommend your BFR over a SW?

I'd even recommend MY bfr over a smith, and it's not as good as 44man's. I'm shooting the lowly 45 cals, but the twist makes it worth it.

Every other week though, the 500 linebaugh calls me. Something about .510 cal over 500 I find sexy/desirable.

[white eagle]

alrite enough
it s bad enough that I just had to buy a BFR for myself not the 500 yet but a 475 (getting closer)

[pal82]

Glad to see this old thread come back to life. This is my favorite fivegun. I just finished a set grips. I wanted something less rubbery and beefier. My first try at grip making, whittled them out of maple an finished with tung oil. I call them BFG's.
96695

[44man]

Glad to see this old thread come back to life. This is my favorite fivegun. I just finished a set grips. I wanted something less rubbery and beefier. My first try at grip making, whittled them out of maple an finished with tung oil. I call them BFG's.
96695
Good fit! How does it feel when you shoot?

[Whiterabbit]

I'm gonna guess "awful" to the palm! Unless he has since rounded the corners. :)

Still, better than my first feeble attempt at grip making. Way better. Way, way....

Oh, and I like that gun size. Looks about perfect for carrying. can I get a gun like that in 500LB?

[44man]

I'm gonna guess "awful" to the palm! Unless he has since rounded the corners. :)

Still, better than my first feeble attempt at grip making. Way better. Way, way....

Oh, and I like that gun size. Looks about perfect for carrying. can I get a gun like that in 500LB?
Boolits and brass might be harder to get. At least .500 S&W brass can be cut down for the JRH. I shot the LB, not a whole lot of difference.

[Whiterabbit]

I can be patient for brass. Already have a 450 grain .510 bullet mold, and no .500 cals. something about .510 calls me over the .500. Dunno why.

[44man]

I can be patient for brass. Already have a 450 grain .510 bullet mold, and no .500 cals. something about .510 calls me over the .500. Dunno why.
It works so go for it. You are halfway there.
The Linebaugh is a hotter round and like the .500 S&W, I don't need either for deer but that does not mean I would not like to own them.

[ole 5 hole group]

If that 0.510 urge gets the better of ya - I'd recommend you just go all out and be done with it by getting the 500 Linebaugh Maximum, which has the 1.610"/1.615" length case as opposed to the 1.4" case length of the 500 Linebaugh. The cost will probably be somewhere between $2,500 and $3,500 for an excellent, not many rounds fired, used model with the donor firearm being a Ruger 357 Maximum.:grin:

You'll probably have to make your own cases from 50 Alaskan brass, as Hornady quit makes cases for that caliber several years ago and finding Hornady cases is next to impossible and expensive when you do run across a few.

[Gibbs44]

I don't know so I'm asking, is there a power difference between the 500 Linebaugh Max, and the 500 Linebaugh? Can it be treated like the 44 Magnum and the 44 Special? Not that I want one yet, just curious. I have many other things I can do with 2500+ smackers right now and for a while down the road. This is a good topic though, I've pretty much read through all the posts.

[ole 5 hole group]

Ahhh grasshopper - here's a little reading on that bad boy. My Max has the plowhandle grip - I love the revolver but I also pay a little price in just a tad more "felt recoil" with the plowhandle over the Bisley.

http://www.singleactions.com/500Maximum.html

[44man]

Not needed in any case, neither is the JRH. Too much is too much. I love the JRH but prefer the .475 for deer. The .44 has not failed me.
The push for more power will bite you in the pants.

[Gibbs44]

Good read, for now I'll stick with my 44. I have a problem controlling my flinch with it. If I ever feel the need for something bigger, I'll go find someone that has one that might let me touch of a few rounds. I like the idea, just not sure I like it that much.

[44man]

There is one I refused to shoot. A .50 Alaskan with shiny Bisley grips. I have shot a huge amount of large revolvers but I stopped at this thing. My friend shot it and with very thick gloves on, this is the result.96886
NO, the Bisley was not made for recoil. I just do not know where that came from.

[ole 5 hole group]

Ha - I laugh to myself every time I think about that one getting away from your friend. He'll probably never forgive you for taking that photo and posting it!!!!

You usually learn early on how to grip & lock your wrists for a "light" single-action revolver shooting heavy boolits with a "stupid" amount of powder resulting in "test load pressures" - While in that "learning stage" you just might draw a little of your own blood from your noggin but it's just part of venturing into areas most men are smart enough to stay away from.

Your friend was very experienced and should have known better but it was just a "mid-life" moment and that's the reason I laugh to myself every time I think of it.

Jim - a plowhandle with wood grips on that 500L Max with 500 grain bullets at 1,300fps is no joy - I think Huntington's modified Bisley would be a better grip frame.

[pal82]

Huntington's modified Bisley would be a better grip frame.
Can one of you fine gentleman post a picture of modified BFR next to stock BFR.

44man, do you have any suggestions on SR4759 with a 440gr.

Thanks, Pal

[pal82]

Good fit! How does it feel when you shoot?

Haven't shot it yet with the new grips. My range has turned into a skating rink. Things should melt off in the next week. Highs in the mid 30's two days next week!

[ole 5 hole group]

http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/10704/stock-huntington-modified-bisley-gripframe

[44man]

Can one of you fine gentleman post a picture of modified BFR next to stock BFR.

44man, do you have any suggestions on SR4759 with a 440gr.

Thanks, Pal
No, never tried it because I use 296.

[44man]

Ha - I laugh to myself every time I think about that one getting away from your friend. He'll probably never forgive you for taking that photo and posting it!!!!

You usually learn early on how to grip & lock your wrists for a "light" single-action revolver shooting heavy boolits with a "stupid" amount of powder resulting in "test load pressures" - While in that "learning stage" you just might draw a little of your own blood from your noggin but it's just part of venturing into areas most men are smart enough to stay away from.

Your friend was very experienced and should have known better but it was just a "mid-life" moment and that's the reason I laugh to myself every time I think of it.

Jim - a plowhandle with wood grips on that 500L Max with 500 grain bullets at 1,300fps is no joy - I think Huntington's modified Bisley would be a better grip frame.
Yes he is. A wonderful friend turned from me by another. There is a blank spot in my life and my wife and I loved him and his wife. I hold nothing against him at all, just the one that stepped between us.
My friend at the time brought the new Huntington grip here but I never had the chance to shoot it. It does look good.
None of you know my hatred of one person that cost me a a wonderful family. You know who he is, no need for me to say who.

[Whiterabbit]

If that 0.510 urge gets the better of ya - I'd recommend you just go all out and be done with it by getting the 500 Linebaugh Maximum, which has the 1.610"/1.615" length case as opposed to the 1.4" case length of the 500 Linebaugh. The cost will probably be somewhere between $2,500 and $3,500 for an excellent, not many rounds fired, used model with the donor firearm being a Ruger 357 Maximum.:grin:

You'll probably have to make your own cases from 50 Alaskan brass, as Hornady quit makes cases for that caliber several years ago and finding Hornady cases is next to impossible and expensive when you do run across a few.

No need. I own the 460 S&W and its enough "big gun" to do any "big gun" stuffs I want. the LB could be a "small gun".

Although, and this is a big although, the linebaugh case is 1.4" long and the 50BMG bullet is 1.6" from crimp to nose, and the BFR long cylinder is 3" long. So with a barrel with a fast enough twist, I could be shooting 50BMG bullets from a revolver.......... No. No, I have to stop thinking about that repeatedly.

[pal82]

http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/10704/stock-huntington-modified-bisley-gripframe

Thanks for the link.

[yotatrd4x4]

I have to ask how is the recoil of the 500jrh compared to say a 454 or even a 500s&w? I know a short barrel is gonna be pretty harsh but I have looked at the 5.5 inch BFR in 500jrh but am still not quite sure I would want it since I just got a new 44 and its about all I can handle in a 4 5/8 barrel with heavy boolits.

[44man]

I have to ask how is the recoil of the 500jrh compared to say a 454 or even a 500s&w? I know a short barrel is gonna be pretty harsh but I have looked at the 5.5 inch BFR in 500jrh but am still not quite sure I would want it since I just got a new 44 and its about all I can handle in a 4 5/8 barrel with heavy boolits.
The 5.5" is actually 6" and is just great. Mine is 7-1/2" but BFR's are measured from the front of the frame.
The JRH has less torque then the .475 and a less sharp recoil then the .454. The .500 S&W is not pleasant nor is it needed for any animal.
Don't get me wrong, it has recoil but the gun is heavy and some .44's and .357's are less pleasant.
At this time, no revolvers I ever shot are more accurate then the BFR's in .475 and .500 JRH.
The big BFR 45-70 is deadly but it is HUGE. I shot the BFR in .500 S&W and like it too but it is just too much for anything but fun. I don't know any animal that needs it.
My favorite to just shoot is the JRH and for deer the .475 has no equal. The .475 is a little harder to control off hand because of a fast barrel rise.
I am worried because the new owners of MR will no longer offer the .475 or JRH as production guns so you better find some or you will need to go through the custom shop.

[Whiterabbit]

cant say I am TOO surprised about the jrh, but not offering a 475? really? Even ruger offers a 480.....

[pal82]

Even ruger offers a 480.....

Bad news, 480 is nolonger in their online catalog.

[pal82]

BFR's are measured from the front of the frame.

That's what I thought too. My production 5.5" JRH measures 5.5' from the front of the cylinder.