Cutting The Rims Off The .40 s&w Cases

[Rick459]

ok, so today i got to thinking how much easier would it be to swage the .40 cases if the rims were cut off. so today i cut off a few rims and proceded to make .45acp prjectiles. i trimmed the cases to 0.645 length. as yo can see in the photo this length is too long for the core size that i am using. so first i will try shortening the trim length to 0.592 and then if that fails then to 0.488. what i did notice after anealing the cases how much softer they are with out the rims as i mangled a few just seating the cores. also the press was easier to operate when using the form die. stay tuned.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture185.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture184.jpg

[MIBULLETS]

Hey Rick, what did you use to cut the rims off?

[Rick459]

i used my mini-lathe with a 7/16 R-8 collet from my mini mill. works pretty well. i also have a old craftmans 109 lathe that was given to me that i am re-furbishing that i think i will dedicate to cutting off the .40 s&w rims. my next batch i will try forming the bullets with out anealing theases as with out the rim and case head they are not as stout.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture186.jpg

[Jailer]

If you do make some with no rim and not annealed, shoot em and post results of the expansion.

[pathfinder]

Nice idea

[MakeMineA10mm]

I'm going to try the mini-chop saw from Harbor Freight to do the same thing.

Probably going to modify the order in which I do things and how I do them...

Still thinking on it, but I may even set up a Dillon tool head to make pre-finish-form bullets... I'm thinking something along the lines of:

1. Deprime
2. Bell-mouth
3. drop in a few shot to add a few grains weight (using the powder measure as a shot dispenser -- not sure how well or poorly this will work)
4. Seat core
5. Once they've gotten those operations done through the Dillon, over to the chop saw they go for de-rimming. (Someone else here said the annealed brass doesn't cut off cleanly, so this step must be done pre-anneal.)
6. Then, anneal the bullets. (This can be done with the cores seated, but they'll need to be set on something like firebrick or steel pan, so the lead doesn't run out the old primer flash-hole.)
7. Clean the bullets with citric acid and tumble. (Cores should be fine, as theoretically, they've been bonded to the jacket through the heat of annealing, or just the friction of having been seated.)
8. Run completed bullets through one-step die.


This should make bullets faster (thanks to the Dillon progressive set-up) that look as close to factory bullets as can be using fired cases for jackets...

[Jailer]

Just curious 10mm, why not just use a heavier core to start with? I know one of the things you are trying to do is fill up the case with a larger volume of lead so why not start with a heavier core and be done with it?

[Rick459]

10mm,
i first tried using the mini chop saw to cut the rims off but the motor with that blade couldn't cut the rim off with out the motor bogging down. that's why i used my mini lathe using a parting tool with the R-8 collet. i am sure there are other ways to accomplish this. i use a modified Forster to trim to length then part off the rim and case head, then aneal. next project is going to be making my own core die.
Rick

[ANeat]

Rick I wonder if you chucked up a 1/2 endmill in the tailstock and doing a plunge cut if it would take off the rim any quicker?

[Daywalker]

Thanks for this thread Rick. I have been thinking of doing this as well. I just picked up my Grizzly G4000 Lathe on Thursday. Looks like something I can get into...

[BT Sniper]

Mini chop saw will not handle cutting the rim off. It does trim the case mouth nicly though.

[Rick459]

ANeat,
i just tried the 1/2" end mill in the tail stock but maybe my end mill is a little dull as it was not doing a faster job of cutting the rim. one does need a collet setup if you wnat to cut the rim using the lathe. but i did aneal the cases after i trimed them to size and after getting below a certain depth the brass seemed to cut easier. here's a pic of the forster trimmer that i modified the base by cutting it shorter so i could cut the cases down short enough.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture188.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture187.jpg

[Rick459]

well until i get a collet set up for my lathe i will be triming the rims off the cases with my mill. i have to say that the mill does a good job of removing the rims and takes less time than the lathe. the problem in cutting the rims off is trying to get a good grip on the case while cutting it. the collet set for the lathe should solve that problem.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture191.jpg

[ANeat]

Rick when I was milling brass like that I made up a split block with holes just slightly undersized of the brass, I have a 6" vice on the mill so I made a 6" block with 8 or 10 holes in line. Loosen the vise, drop in the brass and tighten the vise, mill off the rims, loosen the vise, remove and replace, tighten and mill the other way.

Goes pretty quick and if your brass is consistent you get real good results

[BT Sniper]

+1 with aneat's comment though I have not tried it yet that is what I plan to do.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Just curious 10mm, why not just use a heavier core to start with? I know one of the things you are trying to do is fill up the case with a larger volume of lead so why not start with a heavier core and be done with it?
In a word (or two :) ) - seating depth. Now that I have my first lot of 250gr bullets done, and I've made up some samples of heavier-cored bullets, I've been measuring them for locating a cannelure (playing with the 250s). and got to noticing that to put only .300" of the bullet out of the case, the body of the bullet seats pretty deep. So, I lined up the bullets and compared:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=404&pictureid=2774
(Sorry for the blurriness -- It looked better on the listtle 2" screen on the camera...)

I'm not worried about weight at all, but to compensate for the seating depth, I'll have to definitely use lighter loads. Getting rid of the extra length at the rim/extractor groove seemed like the smartest way to fix this. My other choice is to load lighter.

I did some pondering and looking at load data, and my conclusion (WAG) is that with the 250s (with head/rim on) I should go down to a 17.0gr start and probably be happy with 18.5grs max for a load of AA#9 in 44 Mag. cases. This should give me around 1200-1300fps I'm guessing. Without the extra seating depth, I'm thinking I could go up to 19.0 or 19.5grs for another 150+ fps. OR, I could stick to 18.5grs and get lower pressure, which is what I normally do.


10mm,
i first tried using the mini chop saw to cut the rims off but the motor with that blade couldn't cut the rim off with out the motor bogging down. that's why i used my mini lathe using a parting tool with the R-8 collet. i am sure there are other ways to accomplish this. i use a modified Forster to trim to length then part off the rim and case head, then aneal. next project is going to be making my own core die.
Rick

Thanks Rick. That's what I figured, with the user's comments about the 3", and why I was thinking of getting the 6" saw with bigger motor. I wonder if the 6" is sufficiently more powerful, or if I should go all the way and get the big one...?

[Rick459]

my...what little gems...
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture192.jpg

i used a 3/4" endmill and secured the case in my toolmakers vice clamped in my 3" vice using parallels under the case for support making plunge cuts. cuts the rims off pretty quickly.
Rick

[Rick459]

If you do make some with no rim and not annealed, shoot em and post results of the expansion.

Jailer,
as you can see the un-anealed case even with the rim cut off will not bump up all the way in the forming die. so anealing even with the rim removed will still need to done.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture193.jpg

[Jailer]

Well I had to go back and re read your post. For some reason I thought you were trying to make em without having to anneal them. Not sure how I came to that conclusion.

[Rick459]

Well I had to go back and re read your post. For some reason I thought you were trying to make em without having to anneal them. Not sure how I came to that conclusion.

Jailer you are correct. iwas trying to see if by cutting off the rims, with that thick portion of the case gone if it would be possiable to swage up to .45acp dia. i guess the case is thicker than it looks at the bottom so anealing is a must or maybe a bigger press.
Rick

[Jailer]

What press are you using?

[Rick459]

What press are you using?

RCBS RockChucker II. will be purchasing a C&H Champion press shortly.
Rick

[dragonrider]

Great idea Rick, I tried it and so far like the results although I haven't shot any yet.
This is what I did.
Useing a 7/16" 5C collet equiped with a stop I trimmed off the rims. I then readjusted the stop and trimmed the length to .705"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/swage/IMG_8725.jpg

Then I put the case and a cast boolit into my scale pan and then added enough lead shot to get to 240 grains.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/swage/IMG_8728.jpg

Then I inserted the shot into the cas first and then the cast boolit and heated it until the lead melted and the case annealed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/swage/IMG_8732.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/swage/IMG_8736.jpg

Then into the swage die.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/swage/IMG_8746.jpg

After swaging there is lead exposed above the casemouth that is uneven so I smooth it with a file to the casemouth, this results in a bullit that is 237 grains and looks ok to me.
I need to make up a few more and load them up and head off the the range. It is smoewhat labor intensive so I hope the shoot well.

PS. I am swaging 44's

[Rick459]

Darn Dragonrider... them look store bought... good job..
Rick

[sargenv]

Seems like too much work for mass production.. but for a few here and there they will likely work fine.. any excuse to use power tools ;)

[Rick459]

Dragonrider,
thanks for the tip on using the shot to to bump up the weight of the core to get more of a consistant weight on each bullet. used that method and have swaged my best ones yet. now just need a tip on how to get the aneal marks off of the cases. what method do most here use to shine the finished product?
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture194.jpg

[dragonrider]

Unless you are selling them, I don't see any point in making them shine. Your bullets are good looking as they are.

[ReloaderFred]

Rick,

After you anneal the brass, you can drop them in a solution of Citric Acid and hot water for about half an hour or so. That will remove the stains from the annealing process. Then if you want them to shine, run in the tumbler for about an hour.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Jailer]

Rick,

After you anneal the brass, you can drop them in a solution of Citric Acid and hot water for about half an hour or so. That will remove the stains from the annealing process. Then if you want them to shine, run in the tumbler for about an hour.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Yup, same thing I do. Lemi Shine and dish soap in the kichten sink followed by an hour in the tumbler with corn cob media. They look like new brass when they are done.

[Rick459]

so here are 50 of the 100 swaged bullets that i am going to load up today. i think they came out ok. so i'm going to start casting for my .338/06 and while waiting for my .338 mandrel for my M- die i decided to make a flaring tool using an old Lee expander die i had laying around. this expander that i made will only work in my Co-Ax press as the pictures show you why. also i found that i can use the C&H 101 dies to make hollow points from my RCBS 225grn. mold life is good again.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture195.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture198.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture197.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture196.jpg

[danr]

Dragonrider,
thanks for the tip on using the shot to to bump up the weight of the core to get more of a consistant weight on each bullet. used that method and have swaged my best ones yet. now just need a tip on how to get the aneal marks off of the cases. what method do most here use to shine the finished product?
Rick


rick, i noticed annealing marks went away when i used "natural Gas" instead of propane for heating and annealing my brass.

i have a natural gass stove at my place, so i put a steel rack ontop of the burners, and cranked them up to high, and tossed a bunch of brass onto the rack.. as each one turned bright yellow hot, i removed them from the rack and allowed them to cool slowly. afterwards they had NO annealing disscoloration at all.. compared to using a propane torch that leaves many black disscolored marks on the brass.

i think it has to do with the propane and what is in it that is causing the black marks.. the brass i annealed on natural gass was not cleaned in any way, right off the range.. they where a little dull, and no longer shinny, but still no black marks..

hope this helps.

thanks,
DAn

[MakeMineA10mm]

Finally got some pics taken so I could update my progress on trimming rims. First off, I've only done some tests on empty cases and a couple finished bullets. I've heard people here mention trimming the rims off pre-annealing vs. post annealing. Well, obviously, when I did the finished bullets, they were post-anneal. This may (or may not) explain why the blade did not track correctly through the material. The other possibility is that the aluminum oxide blade I'm using flexed at the contact point, which is the angle leading from the case body down into the extractor rim. This definitely put a slight flex in the blade, and I think it's the bigger factor. I've seen more guys are using metal blades with fine-tooth designs, and BT is sharpening his blades. I'll have to play with that later. For now, I've found that the bases of the bullets are angled if I don't turn the bullet in my holding jig 180-degrees and trim a tiny bit off the other side. (You'll see in the pics.)

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=404&pictureid=2889
Here you see the bases of five bullets. They are (L to R): Sierra 300gr JSP, my 267gr swaged JHP (w/ rim still on), my 237gr swaged JHP (w/ rim trimmed) (the 267gr w/ rim trimmed off), my 220gr swaged JHP (rim trimmed off the 250gr JHP which has the lead recessed inside the jacket), and a Sierra 240gr JHP.

You can see in the photo above that I trimmed the base of the bullets in two directions in order to get them flat. In the future, when I trim the rim off, I think I'll do it after I've seated the core, but before I've formed the bullet in the one-step die. It's kind-of hard to see, but the cutting process puts a little curl of metal off to the side where the blade goes through, and with cutting in two directions, the bullet bases are not perfectly flat. Running them through the one-step die after trimming should solve both of these issues.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=404&pictureid=2890
Here are same five bullets (in same order) lined up with their bases even, showing the length of each bullet. Note how the 267gr bullet (w/ rim still on) is almost the same length as the 300gr Sierra. Also note how that same bullet with the rim trimmed off (ending up at 237grs) is almost identical in length to the Sierra 240gr.

I put the calipers on the 240gr Sierra and 237gr swaged w/ rim trimmed off. Got the following lengths:
240gr Sierra: 0.744" long
237gr BT JHP: 0.714" long

Now, if I were to add three grains of lead, and talk to Brian about reshaping the nose and depth of the HP, I bet we could make something essentially identical.

As it is, with proper placement of the cannelure (which as you can see by the picture, I'm still struggling with... :shock: ) the seating depth will be almost identical or even a little less of the bullet will protrude into the powder space.

This is very interesting for me in terms of making maximum effort loads. For much of my jacketed shooting (the Ruger 44 Carbine), I'm shooting at the range, but if I take it hunting, or if a buddy wants some ammo to take a deer with, I'll want to maximize my power and hence velocity. Where this leaves me is that I think in my second batch of swaged bullets, I'm going to trim about 50 rims off, and set those up to get as close to 245grs as possible. This should leave a little lead lip protruding beyond the mouth of the jacket. These will be loaded warm/hot for hunting. The remainder, I'll just leave the rims on and load those for range-ammo for the Ruger. They'll weigh out about 265grs, and I'll use a starting load of slow powder, which should cycle the action fine and keep pressures in check.

[a.squibload]

Just a thought, for a tubular magazine the wider HP might be a plus,
no primer contact at all.

[MakeMineA10mm]

That's true, but we also have to get the round to transition from the magazine to the chamber, and the wider the mouth, the harder that is. My Marlin 1894SS is a slick-feeding rifle and won't be any problem, but my Winchester 94 is NOT very slick. Also, the Ruger I've only played with using factory jacketed bullets, so I'm not sure how forgiving (if at all) that one will be with the feed-cycle and a wide-mouth bullet like these.

Best as I can measure, the meplat on Brian's die is about .345" whereas the meplat on the Sierra 240gr JHC is about .250". I was thinking of something with a meplat of about .310". This is still plenty big enough to encourage expansion (more so than most factory bullets), as well as being big enough to not engage the primer of the cartridge in front of it. Yet, it will be small enough (hopefully) to feed better. I'm just guessing (maybe Brian could share some feed-back with us) that this would also be big-enough to work well with the ejector in the die.

I would also change the rounded profile Brian uses to a truncated-cone style. I like the RN profile he sent better than the truncated-cone ogive that Sierra uses; however, I've noted a tendency by auto-loaders to like that TC ogive-shape better. (Look at Hornady's 124gr FMJ-TC in 9mm [a.k.a. "the Air Force bullet"] and factory drawings for the ammo for the Automag, and you'll see they are TC ogive designs...) I know Brian has an Automag, so maybe he'd benefit from trying the TC shape out?

Also, I wouldn't change the height in the die where the ogive starts and ends. Those are about perfect, right where they're at.

Of course, I'd like Brian to work on this after the first of the year, because I want to see that notching die first!! :-D