so given a choice

[white eagle]

for a hunting boolit in a rifle say one that can push a boolit at least 2400 fps (not saying that is the speed to be used but give more choices than a 30-30 for instance)
what type of boolit would you use and or recommend to another caster hunter ?
also what alloy would you use ? :cbpour:

[rockrat]

WW's with a little tin added, water dropped, for those speeds. If for deer, maybe the 311440. For elk, maybe the RCBS 30-180fp. At least for 30 cals, since you indicated 30-30


What caliber?

[white eagle]

so would you not go any softer than w/w?

[geargnasher]

You will likely have some trouble getting anything softer than 12 BHN much over 2200 fps in .30 bore, even with sturdy gas checks. I personally use a water-quenched mix that ends up being 2%Sb, 1.5% Sn, a known trace of arsenic (around 1/8%), with the remainder Pb. This ends up about 15-17 bhn after a few weeks, is tough enough to handle some speed, yet malleable enough to still expand without totally disintegrating.

Gear

[Bret4207]

Gear pretty much hit the nail on the head. Smart guy, he said what I was going to! IME when we get over 18-1850 fps in a rifle is when WQ WW alloy comes in. You get the same ductile nature of good old dependable WW alloy but it gives you tougher alloy, less prone to stripping. Slower powders also help here, stretch that pressure curve out and you have less chance of bad things happening. It's a balancing act with hunting- find an alloy and load that is accurate enough for 5 shots and gives good penetration, but strong enough not to shatter or turn to putty on impact.

[white eagle]

thanks for the tips fellas
what I was seeking

[Von Gruff]

You could always softnose for the desired result. I have a 160gn hunting boolit with 95gn lino shank and 65gn 50/50 ww/pb for the nose. Run at 2415fps in my 7x57 it certainly does the trick and has been sucessful out to 185yds so far. Plenty of expansion and 100% weight retention in a recovered specimen.

Von Gruff.

[white eagle]

actually that is where I started but thought that the boolit would disintegrate I didn't find any remains after shooting them
now I suppose that would be expected being a berm
and I was getting more leading in my barrel with those compared to wdww
I am getting some fantastic expansion in my pistol cals with them (45c,44m)but thought that maybe I was pushing them to fast in a rifle (358 win)

[missionary5155]

Greetings
+1 on that RCBS 180 GCFN. I use it in evry caliber 30 rifle I have that has a small enough throat to shoot it well. I cannot think of any critters I hunt regularly when up north there that I would not use that boolit on.
I have cast these with 50/50 noses (about 40 grains worth) and the noses peel back at 2000 fps and tear off. I personally think at 1850 fps + it is better to stay with a homogeneous straight ww and aneal the noses if you want a softer nose.

[white eagle]

How would a hollow point help
what I am trying to accomplish is get the expansion that I am getting in my pistols
or some what similar results

[geargnasher]

How would a hollow point help
what I am trying to accomplish is get the expansion that I am getting in my pistols
or some what similar results

It won't. If you want results similar to your pistols, you will need to take the same approach. 1200 fps and the correct alloy. Not an improvement at all. HP rifle boolits are a waste of time IME because at the velocities you're talking about either the tips shatter like glass on the hide of the first side, leaving no expansion on the underweight remainder, or if soft enough they expand into a half-dollar and fly apart, again shortly after hitting hide. If HPs hit bone, count the nose gone.

Your water-quenched wheel-weights diluted with some softer lead and a pinch of tin will expand like your HP pistol boolits will, but with control at 2K+ fps.

Oh, +1 Bret on the slower powders for gentle launch and higher velocity work using WW alloys. For .30-30, I love 3031 and 748 with 150-ish cast pushed to right at 2K. With the above alloy they expand about 400% in wet paper and would go completly through at least two deer in a row.

Gear

[Bret4207]

I'm not a big fan of hunting with HPs. IMO, having seen zillions of jacketed HP not expand at all or turn into a nickle thin disc, I keep the HP as a tool of last resort although they do tend to improve accuracy IME. Start with a FN and work your alloy/HT to the velocity you want or work your velocity around your alloy. Either way I'd recommend a good FN or blunt RN to start with.

[Larry Gibson]

I'll offer the opinion that a HP does indeed help. However, the problem with most Lyman HPs is the stem is too long. I have used a Lyman 311041HP mould for many years on numerous game and varmints in various cartridges. I have found if the alloy is a malleable one then best results are obtained by shorteneing the HP stem to only HP 2/3 - 3/4 the length of the nose. Expansion is then excellent to 200 yards when the muzzle velocity is in the 2000 - 2200 fps range. If one does not have a HP mould then the Forster 1/8" HP tool works very well on .30 - 3.75 cal cast bullets of FP or RN design.

The key is simply selecting and using the correct HP and alloy.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

You may have something there Lar, I just don't trust the standard Lyman set up. No matter what, I still want a FN to start with.

[Mk42gunner]

I'll offer the opinion that a HP does indeed help. However, the problem with most Lyman HPs is the stem is too long. I have used a Lyman 311041HP mould for many years on numerous game and varmints in various cartridges. I have found if the alloy is a malleable one then best results are obtained by shorteneing the HP stem to only HP 2/3 - 3/4 the length of the nose. Expansion is then excellent to 200 yards when the muzzle velocity is in the 2000 - 2200 fps range. If one does not have a HP mould then the Forster 1/8" HP tool works very well on .30 - 3.75 cal cast bullets of FP or RN design.

The key is simply selecting and using the correct HP and alloy.

Larry Gibson

Just thinking here, but could the reason be that when Ideal started making HP molds most where designed for BP velocities, and Lyman just operated under the "If it works, don't fix it theory?"

That would explain why most people that have tried it say the Gould bullet works well on deer at less than 1500 FPS, but tends to fail when driven faster.

It makes sense to me that you need a smaller HP, and a tougher allloy at faster speeds.

Robert

[Good Cheer]

I want to try a sharp spire point with a short hollow to blow off the nose cone, leaving a blunt object. That Lymans 311644 might work. It has a ring behind the ogive in just the right location to make it pop off without shedding much weight.

[dnepr]

i am suprised no one has mentioned paper patched boolits at that velocity , they could be pure to almost pure lead , I hope to hunt with 30 cal 200 grain pp boolits at that type of velocity with my 7.62x54 sometime in the future and would take on anything NWO has to offer with a combination like that .

[geargnasher]

i am suprised no one has mentioned paper patched boolits at that velocity , they could be pure to almost pure lead , I hope to hunt with 30 cal 200 grain pp boolits at that type of velocity with my 7.62x54 sometime in the future and would take on anything NWO has to offer with a combination like that .

Good point, but that is a hobby unto itself for most, and I feel that it is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist if you balance the alloy to the velocity by using less antimony and more heat treat to make a malleable but strong boolit.

As for the Lyman pins, I don't think any actual expansion research has been done by them in about fifty years (except for perhaps the Devastator series), so many of their designs are a bit lacking. Also keep in mind that Lyman seems to think that 1600 fps is "high velocity" and they can't seem to graduate beyond medium pistol powders for pushing cast in rifles, so their hp designs may be geared toward that. How they would expect any hp boolit to work with straight linotype is beyond me, and much of their data shows lino for rifles. Ya gotta use common sense here.

Gear

[Bret4207]

I know this much, I had a whole mess of 358156HPs cast of straight WW. Driving them at 11-1200 fps gave decent expansion in a cow carcass. Drive them at 18-1850 from a Whelen and you got those nickle thin discs I spoke of, at least the front half. They would shed a bit too. Not a real great idea for penetration as they would only go in 6-10" although the cavity was impressive. A solid 156 of the same alloy would go 20" give or take. Now one poor cow carcass and my observations do not make anything a "fact", but considering a 32-20 rifle firing a 311316 solid got through and through penetration at 250 fps less +/- (15-1600 fps) that tells me a balance has to be found and struck.

OTH, that HP 156 from the Whelen will just about cut a good sized porky in half.

[Larry Gibson]

Bret

I tend to agree that the Lyman HP stems "stem" from the really soft lead BP days and with Gear that they've not done much on HP reserch since, except for the Devestators. I always espouse the right alloy for the velocity used with HPs. That way one does not run into the example you give; the alloy was definately not correct with those bullets driven at 1800+ fps, had juju there for sure.

I also don't need 20"+ of penetration, especially on deer and am of the opinion (others vary of course and that's ok) that I'd rather have more energy expended inside the animal than on air, trees or hillside on the offside. I've measured a lot of deer and found 12 -14' will pass completely through the vitals on all I've measured (included a 200+ lber on the hoof) with all heart/lung shots except a Texas heart shot (I don't do those). With a correct alloy I have het to recover one of my 311041 HPs as I now cast them from any deer, all shots have been through and through. The 200 gr RCBS HP out of my .35 Rem (2150 fps) was also through and through with obvious excellent termanal ballistics on that Texas 8 pointer I shot last November. Simply a matter of the right bullet (that means right alloy with cast) for the job at hand. Perhaps in my case with all through and through shots my alloy still isn't soft enough but there is also a balance between the alloys softness and accuracy at such velocity. The 50/50 WW/lead alloy seems to give a good balance between obtainable accuracy at 2000 - 2200 fps and expansion aout to 200 yards. I probably could also alter the HP to a more efficient shape but what I'm using doesn't appear to be broke so I can't see fixing it;-)

I think we're definately on the same page here with our experience, especially with starting out with a FN bullet. That is always my 1st choice also.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

I think you're right Lar. But it also seems to me that we have choices in how we achieve our balance. You choose to alter alloy. Another guy might choose to alter the HP depth and another the velocity. I hate changing alloys! That's why I'll never get into soft nosing I imagine. I'd be in the pin depth camp I think if I were to really get into it.