working on lead hardness and lube

[dbotos]

specs:

Glock G19C (9mm) with solid Storm Lake barrel, 1 in 16" twist, slugged at 0.355"
(edit note: barrel has conventional rifling)
Lyman 356637 - 147 grain flat nose bevel base
3.5-3.7 grain Bullseye
1.150-1.160" OAL
Winchester small pistol primers
light crimp with Lee FCD
950-980 fps

hardness:

Tried shooting a bunch of them that were air cooled (BHN ~14) with various lubes, but was getting leading. Read about heat treating via oven with water quench and tried the following with a batch of 25:

-sprayed air-cooled bullets with Hornady one shot case lube and ran through Lee .356 sizer (used the one shot as a light lube to avoid getting any lead in the sizer)
-heated in oven at 450*F for 1 hour
-quenched in bucket of ice water

Just checked the hardness today (24 hrs later) and it's ~26+ (or at least as close as I can tell with my Lee hardness tester). Pan lubed 'em up and will hopefully get to load and test them soon.

lube:

Tried the Lee liquid alox, decided to mess around with making my own traditional lube. Long story short, current formula is 70% beeswax, 30% crisco, and a little powdered graphite (% by volume). Don't have a lubrisizer yet, so I've been pan lubing (which seems to be working pretty well).

questions:

1. Is that 26+ hardness okay? I understand you want it hard so it doesn't smear, but soft enough so that it seal.

2. Better ways to read Lee hardness tester? I've been coloring in the indent and surrounding area with a marker and then removing the color on the surrounding area with some 1500 grit sandpaper (makes it easier to see what's indented and what's not). I've given up on the little microscope (tiny graduations seems to just disapper/become unreadable unless on a nice solid background) and instead attempted to measure with calipers and a magnifying glass.

3. Any comments on the lube ingredients/proportions? I went with the beeswax cause I heard it is less likely to soot than paraffin and the crisco cause it's better smelling and cheaper than alox as a softener. Graphite adds some additional lubricating properties and makes it a nice black color. 70/30 mix seems to give about the right hardness/softness.

4. Recommendations on a lubrisizer? Saw the Lymans got bad reviews on Midway, while the RCBS and Saeco got better ones. I'm leaning towards the RCBS cause the dies and top punches are cheaper.

5. Any way to shoot soft lead hollowpoints in 9? I've been considering getting the Lyman devastator mold, but what's the good of a hard HP. Should I just pony up and switch over to 45?

6. When heating in the oven, do the bullets need to be on their bases on a tray or can I just throw them in some kind of metal container with them not standing up and probably touching each other?

[454PB]

I never owned a Glock, so can't comment on the loads other than:

26 BHN should be more than hard enough, 16 BHN works well in my Browning HP and Ruger P's.

My Lee tester works fine if used near a window. The window over my loading bench faces south, and provides excellent light. If I use it after dark, I have a gooseneck light over my lathe/milling machine that is easily aimed wherever light is required. Granted, it takes some practice and a steady hand to use the Lee hardness tester.

I used to make my own boolit lube from beeswax and mineral oil. It worked great, but was a little soft. I never thought of using Crisco, seems like it might get rancid after a while.

I have two Lyman 450's and a Star lubrisizer. Get the Star if you want the best for the money.

When I heat treat, I stand all boolits on their base, and space them so they don't touch each other. I suspect laying them on their side might allow some deformation.

[dmbassking]

I heard that glock strongly opposes the use of cast bullets in their guns. I think they said it was because of the rifling...?

Edit: oh yeah, you said a storm lake barrel, huh.

[dbotos]

I'll have to try some more light with the Lee microscope.

Crisco seems to be doing okay so far not getting nasty. I think I got the idea to use it from here or somewhere else on the 'net.

Do they make those Star ones anymore? I thought I heard they stopped making them or went out of business.

Sounds like a good idea keeping them on their base in the oven. Last thing I need is for them to get deformed.

The Storm Lake barrel I've got in my Glock has conventional rifling. It's the factory barrel polygonal rifling that is not recommended for lead, although I've heard of some people successfully shooting lead from them. For me, the $100 was not worth the worry. Plus, the new one is purty stainless steel.

[454PB]

I know the guys burning sulphur use Crisco, maybe it's not a problem. It just seems since Crisco is vegetable oil, it would spoil after an extended period of time.

Here is a link to the current Star lubisizer manufacturer:

http://www.magmaengr.com/item.php?id=24

They are about twice the price of the Lyman, but worth it!

[fecmech]

dbotos--I am a big Bullseye fan, it's my goto load in .38 and .45 but never worked well for me with 147's in the 9mm( 124's it was ok). You can get the velocity safely pressure wise but I had leading problems with it using 147's and accuracy was not the best. I would recommend Blue dot, Herco, WSF or Hogdon Longshot for your 147 loads. All have given me excellent results in my 1/16 twist Olympic Arms HiPower barrel and also the 1/10 HP factory barrel. Softest shooting load was 4.0/WSF (950 fps) most accurate was 4.6/Longshot (1000 fps). Good luck Nick

[dbotos]

Thanks for the link. Is the Star worth the extra $70 or so? The only big advantage I can see over the RCBS is the straight-through sizing.

RCBS LAM-2

unit: $144
sizing die: $23
punch: $9
total: $176

Magma Star

unit: $195
sizing die: $35
punch: $13
total: $243

[dbotos]

dbotos--I am a big Bullseye fan, it's my goto load in .38 and .45 but never worked well for me with 147's in the 9mm( 124's it was ok). You can get the velocity safely pressure wise but I had leading problems with it using 147's and accuracy was not the best. I would recommend Blue dot, Herco, WSF or Hogdon Longshot for your 147 loads. All have given me excellent results in my 1/16 twist Olympic Arms HiPower barrel and also the 1/10 HP factory barrel. Softest shooting load was 4.0/WSF (950 fps) most accurate was 4.6/Longshot (1000 fps). Good luck Nick

I'm wondering if it's too fast of a powder for this bullet. I may have to try something else if these harder bullets don't work. Thanks.

[fecmech]

Thanks for the link. Is the Star worth the extra $70 or so? The only big advantage I can see over the RCBS is the straight-through sizing.

RCBS LAM-2

unit: $144
sizing die: $23
punch: $9
total: $176

Magma Star

unit: $195
sizing die: $35
punch: $13
total: $243

Depends on how much shooting you do, the Stars advantage is speed,well over 1000 bullets per hour. Most people size bullets nose first so you only need 1 top punch. The difference in money won't amount to much over the life of the machine but the difference in speed will. If you can afford it my recommendation is get the Star.

[swheeler]

dbotos; when I heat treat I lay all bullets on their sides and no more than 2 layers deep, they come out fine= just like Dennis Marshall recommends in "Cast Bullet Heat Treatment"

[drinks]

Check the BHN again, mine get harder over 5-7 days, 12 at casting, 20 after 24 hours, 25 after 3 days and 28-30 after 7 days.
I know several who use 50-50 Bees wax and peanut oil from the grocery store for both BP and smokeless and have very good results.

[dbotos]

Depends on how much shooting you do, the Stars advantage is speed,well over 1000 bullets per hour. Most people size bullets nose first so you only need 1 top punch. The difference in money won't amount to much over the life of the machine but the difference in speed will. If you can afford it my recommendation is get the Star.

I'll have to see how pan lubing in volume goes. $250 is half a new glock. :Fire:

[dbotos]

Check the BHN again, mine get harder over 5-7 days, 12 at casting, 20 after 24 hours, 25 after 3 days and 28-30 after 7 days.
I know several who use 50-50 Bees wax and peanut oil from the grocery store for both BP and smokeless and have very good results.

I've heard that too that the hardness develops over time. This place said they harden faster if you quench them in ice water:

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[dbotos]

My Lee tester works fine if used near a window. The window over my loading bench faces south, and provides excellent light. If I use it after dark, I have a gooseneck light over my lathe/milling machine that is easily aimed wherever light is required. Granted, it takes some practice and a steady hand to use the Lee hardness tester.

I tried it with my carry flashlight and that instantly helped, but I couldn't keep it still enough to line up the scale and focus, so I made this (see attached). Mini wire-brush handle in vise, microscope rubber banded to that, and indented bullet sitting on small piece of MDF on top of vise. Shine the flashlight on top of the bullet and it was nice and still, which made it 1000x easier to line up the scale and focus.

Indent measured 0.040", which corresponds to a BHN of 33! Either the one shot residue did something crazy, the ice water quenching gets 'em really hard, or the temperature knob on that oven is off (may have to get an oven thermometer to check it).

[454PB]

That'll work!

I have the Lee Classic Turret press, and I wrapped electrical tape around the microscope to make it fit snuggly in one of the turret holes. I then place the sample on the ""V" shell holder that comes with the Lee tester. I then raise the ram of the press to focal height and adjust the sample for viewing without hand tremors. Because the microscope is in the turret, I have movement by minor turn adjusting. There are a lot of ways to stabilize the setup.....

I wondered if you would retest and find the hardness increased, I have in recent experiments. 33 BHN is about what I would expect to see with heat treating, around 27 with quenching from the mould. The trick if using water quenching is to size them immediately. They will then stay hard for a long period of time. If you size them after a week or two, they will gradually resoften. I have some test samples "brewing" that proved to me that sizing immediately keeps them at the same hardness for at least 4 months....that's how long my experimenting has lasted to this point.

[dbotos]

Good idea on the press-mounted microscope. :idea:

Yeah, that 33 is two days after the oven heat treat and ice water quench. Could've been that after one day for all I know - I didn't have my microscope set up well when I checked it after one day. That LASC site I posted above said the ice water quench should help bring about full hardness faster. I feel better about that 33 after hearing a sanity check from someone else. Also, this site had some numbers on age hardening (see section below picture with clipboard in it):

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/alloyhardness/index.asp

I loaded up 25 of these little rocks last night. Gonna see how they shoot this weekend. :Fire:

[dbotos]

update:

Shot 25 of those 33 BHNers this weekend. I think I was getting some blow-by leading. Did another batch at 390*F (still need to verify accuracy of oven knob) for 1 hr with ice-water quench that is showing a one-day hardness of 21 BHN. Hopefully this will be the happy medium of hardness (hard enough not to smear, but soft enough to seal off the gases). Anyone else found a good range of hardness for 9mm?

[milsurpcollector1970]

dbotos,

You may already know this, but another reason Glock doesnt want you shooting lead is the possibilty of an out of battery discharge that usually destroys the gun. This can occur from lead or lube building up where the cartridge headspaces on the rim. Be sure to clean this area throughly after shooting session. I use a brass cleaning brush chucked in a drill with some cleaning solution on it.

[Slick Pilot]

I have some heat treated bullets that have been sitting in the box for at least twenty years. They are still very hard, although I have not subjected them to measurement by a gauge.

The method of heat treating I have found best is to put some rejected bullets in the oven and gradually increase the temperature until they begin to slump. Then turn the temperature back a bit and heat the bullets for 30-60 minutes before quenching them in water. This way one knows that the temperature is just short of melting rather than relying on a thermometer that could be slightly off.

My bullet lube is 50% beeswax and 50% petroleum jelly by weight, colored with candle dye and scented with cinnamon (well, I had it , so I used it).

[dbotos]

dbotos,

You may already know this, but another reason Glock doesnt want you shooting lead is the possibilty of an out of battery discharge that usually destroys the gun. This can occur from lead or lube building up where the cartridge headspaces on the rim. Be sure to clean this area throughly after shooting session. I use a brass cleaning brush chucked in a drill with some cleaning solution on it.

Wouldn't this be true with any autoloader? I've been trying to be careful to inspect the barrel often (and clean if necessary) while working my leading issues - if I blow up my Glock, that'll really put me behind in the money I'm trying to save by shooting cast. ;-)

[dbotos]

I have some heat treated bullets that have been sitting in the box for at least twenty years. They are still very hard, although I have not subjected them to measurement by a gauge.

The method of heat treating I have found best is to put some rejected bullets in the oven and gradually increase the temperature until they begin to slump. Then turn the temperature back a bit and heat the bullets for 30-60 minutes before quenching them in water. This way one knows that the temperature is just short of melting rather than relying on a thermometer that could be slightly off.

My bullet lube is 50% beeswax and 50% petroleum jelly by weight, colored with candle dye and scented with cinnamon (well, I had it , so I used it).

I think getting them that hot may result in a hardness greater than what I'm looking for. That is a good way to see what the max hardness you can get is, though.

I like the idea of scenting the lube. May have to find something to put in mine.

[dbotos]

update 2:

The 390*F batch retained their 21 BHN hardness into day 2, so I'm guessing that's as hard as they're gonna get. Went and shot about 40 of them yesterday and here's what I noticed:

-still getting minor leading
-getting some lube blown back towards breech (seemed to have a good bit in the chamber end of the barrel and around the breech face on the slide)

My hypothesis for this problem is that the Alliant Bullseye powder that I'm using is too fast and that the sharp temperature and pressure spikes it creates are melting some of the base of the bullet (and maybe around the sides toward the base and blowing lube everywhere). So, I ordered a pound of each of the following slower powders to try:

Ramshot Zip
Alliant Power Pistol
Accurate #5
IMR 800x

Any comments on my hypothesis or any of these powders?

[Bad Flynch]

IIRC, Glocks have a leading problem because of the polygonal rifling. In addition, the hardness of your bullets needs to be scaled to fit the pressure of your load. Most modest velocity loads only need moderately hard bullets and harder ones seem to lead more, not less. At your velocity level, your bullets do not need to be harder than BHN 14 or so and they need to be large enough to fit the polygonal rifling and crimp so that the case mouth is of acceptable diameter. Try oversized bullets as long as the ammo so loaded will feed and funtion well. Oversized lead bullets do not cause pressure problems as is sometimes reported. Bullets sized to fit the throat (leade) and rifling will always shoot better and most always lead less than any improperly sized bullet, hard or not.

[drinks]

BF beat me to it, if you are sizing .356 and firing it in a .356 biggest dimension barrel, I understand Glocks do not have grooves, you are going to have leading, no matter how hard the bullets are, you need to be oversize, so the bullet is squeezed down, not trying to bump up, to seal the barrel.

[dbotos]

I looked back at my original post and it looks like I forgot to mention that the aftermarket barrel I have in the gun has conventional rifling. I was starting to wonder what all this polygonal mumbo-jumbo talk was about. :mrgreen:

[Bad Flynch]

I looked back at my original post and it looks like I forgot to mention that the aftermarket barrel I have in the gun has conventional rifling. I was starting to wonder what all this polygonal mumbo-jumbo talk was about. :mrgreen:

Conventional rifling still needs bullets sized to fit the leade, which is usually larger than the groove diameter. Give large bullets a try; it certainly will do no harm. If the bullets do not fit the leade, then the gas cutting starts there and continues down the barrel for a ways.

Here is a truism for you, too: when hard bullets lead, the leading is harder to remove than that accumulated with soft bullets. Try softer and larger bullets, just crimp so that the case mouth ends up of an acceptable diameter. A case mouth with a little bite into the lead bullet also helps the bullet not push backwards into the case during feeding.

[dbotos]

Conventional rifling still needs bullets sized to fit the leade, which is usually larger than the groove diameter. Give large bullets a try; it certainly will do no harm. If the bullets do not fit the leade, then the gas cutting starts there and continues down the barrel for a ways.

Here is a truism for you, too: when hard bullets lead, the leading is harder to remove than that accumulated with soft bullets. Try softer and larger bullets, just crimp so that the case mouth ends up of an acceptable diameter. A case mouth with a little bite into the lead bullet also helps the bullet not push backwards into the case during feeding.

I slugged just the breech end of the barrel and it looks like it's the same as the rest of it (0.355"). That is a good call about the leade, though.

I am definitely going to go back to my air-cooled ones with these new powders. No sense in adding another step (heat treating) if I don't have to. And like you said, easier to clean the soft stuff if it does lead.

[dbotos]

Slower powder did the trick! My barrel hasn't been this clean since I was shooting plated. :drinks: Here's the load I shot today:

Lyman 356637 - 147 grain flat nose bevel base - sized to 0.356
~14 BHN
4.4-4.8 grains 800x
1.150-1.160" OAL
Winchester small pistol primers
light crimp with Lee FCD
60/40 beeswax/criso lube with graphite
948-1010 fps

Think I might try a little less powder since I only need 850+ fps to make power factor. For now, I'm just happy not to have any leading. :mrgreen: