Trail Boss in 45acp for a new shooter

[Ford SD]

I want the wife to start shooing a 1911. She has tried a mild IPSC load in 45acp. The problem arises when she has to pull back the slide, no strength She has small hands (does not help that I have a 20 lb spring)
She shoots a low power 357mag single action no problem
I was thinking about a 9mm 1911 but I would have to buy one:cry:

So I was looking at some loading data for Trail Boss and the 45ACP
200g lead bullet and the min data published data I have (imr data web site)
Trail Boss
min 3.5g = 652 fps and 9200 cup --> app 130pf
max 5.5g = 816 fps and 16100 cup--> app 163 pf

9mm with 124 or 147g lead with the min of the powder I have are 133 to 140 pf

just wondering will the min load seal the case and how accurate it could be
and how low of a spring I might need to use
if it does not work out a spring is a lot less than a new gun plus a reloading setup

if she likes it I might or might not have to buy a 9mm[smilie=w:

thanks in advance[smilie=s:

[Doc_Stihl]

Better off getting a 16lb spring and finding a light load with clays. Trail boss costs alot more than clays. Trail Boss worked in my 1911, but the cost and didn't deem it useful compared to clays.

[broncoformudv]

You state the problem is yours wife has difficulty pulling your slide back so I do not understand how a lighter recoiling load will help?

other than that I am no help, only used Trail Boss in revolvers and rifles and didn't have to change a thing on any of them.

[Old Grump]

You state the problem is yours wife has difficulty pulling your slide back so I do not understand how a lighter recoiling load will help?

other than that I am no help, only used Trail Boss in revolvers and rifles and didn't have to change a thing on any of them.

Think about it for a minute, light spring, heavy load, heavy recoil banging on parts you don't want banged. Light spring, light load, matches recoil, gun functions and she can work the slide.

Haven't tried trail boss but my light load is 4.5 gr of bullseye behind a 200 gr LSWC bullet, almost like shooting a 22 in comparison to shooting my normal load of 230 gr. hardball

[Ford SD]

You state the problem is yours wife has difficulty pulling your slide back so I do not understand how a lighter recoiling load will help?

other than that I am no help, only used Trail Boss in revolvers and rifles and didn't have to change a thing on any of them.

i have found a min load of W231 200g 800fps 160 pf functions my 1911 with no problems a bit dirty, So I clean every 300 rounds or every visit to the range
a tooth brush on the bolt face and a brush down the barrel (not not even field strip)
keeps it running with the 20 lb spring (160PF)

So if i go even lighter on power factor at some point I will start to get malfunctions

So if some one has done it and reduced the recoil spring to keep it reliable and it is X power spring (with trail Boss) and can tell me they used X power spring and had no problems that is the spring I will buy/ try

[Ford SD]

Haven't tried trail boss but my light load is 4.5 gr of bullseye behind a 200 gr LSWC bullet, almost like shooting a 22 in comparison to shooting my normal load of 230 gr. hardball

Thanks did consider bullseye powder but Trail boss still has a lower velocity

have info for bullseye 200g 4.2g = 732fps = 146 PF (Rcbs cast bullet book)

bullseye has a volume mass density of .1064

Trail boss has a volume mass density of .2172

so if i under stand it correctly Trail boss will have app twice the volume be less position sensitive and when throwing a charge, with a small variation (from charge to charge, top of hopper to bottom of hopper) should be more uniform.

Trail boss if there is a double charge should still be safe and cause no problems other than a higher recoil


I am looking for spring for a lighter load than this app 133 PF

Thanks for the comments so far but still looking

[flinchnjerk]

In 5" Kimber, Lee 200 gr SWC, WLP ( in my limited testing {5 loads, 3 calibers} TB much prefers WLP to Fed. 150)
3.5 grns. - avg. 645 fps; 3.9 grns. - avg. 709 fps.
Rule of thumb is one pound of spring for every 12 of PF.
From my observations, it's getting the slide to start back that causes those with weak hands difficulty, and that's due to the mainspring, not the recoil spring. Is she cocking the hammer before she tries to rack the slide?

[Ford SD]

In 5" Kimber, Lee 200 gr SWC, WLP ( in my limited testing {5 loads, 3 calibers} TB much prefers WLP to Fed. 150)
3.5 grns. - avg. 645 fps; 3.9 grns. - avg. 709 fps.
Rule of thumb is one pound of spring for every 12 of PF.
From my observations, it's getting the slide to start back that causes those with weak hands difficulty, and that's due to the mainspring, not the recoil spring. Is she cocking the hammer before she tries to rack the slide?

yes she has tried it with the hammer back(1911) and can not do it

I am not sure how many pounds of force it takes to rack the slide on a S&W model 41 after a miss fire but when she has one she calls me over ( part of it might be being a new shooter) some of it not enough strength in her hands to grip slide and pull toward her)

thanks for the tip about

Rule of thumb is one pound of spring for every 12 of PF.
did not know that

so it looks like i need a 11 to a 14 lb spring depending on the load
will go through the junk bin under my desk and see what i can find

i have a 10 lb spring new in the package but wanted to work down to it slowly
i do not need any frame or slide damage

using a shok buff (with reg loads) and with the 20lb spring it still gets beat up, and i am not even using top load data

thanks

ps i use Win primers all ready:mrgreen:
and never had a problem with them

[theperfessor]

Not directly related to Trail Boss but I teach people with lower grip/arm strength to work the slide of a 1911 by grabbing it with left hand and pushing it against support hand similar to the way you would squeeze an accordion. This uses the strongest (pectoral) muscles and ensures a good grip with left hand. Trying to cycle slide using only two fingers of left hand and trying to pull back while pushing forward with right hand is often too much for people with limited upper body strength.

Just be sure to turn body so your muzzle is pointed down range for safety. Hard to describe but I think you can figure it out.

[Moonie]

I have a light plinking load I use for the younger kids/wife in my 1911.

3.1gr Clays 200gr boolit @ around 600fps with a 12lb progressive spring. The progressive spring gets progressively heavier as you push back the slide, starts much easier than a standard 12lb spring.

Load works great and drops empties just past your right foot.

[gray wolf]

OK I can't let this go without asking some questions.

If you are shooting a 1911 it should run fine with a 16# recoil spring and a 23#main spring.
That's how it was made to function. So ? #1 Why do you think you need a 20# recoil spring ?
It is not even needed for Plus P loads. If you do it to make your pistol run then you are only masking some other problem that should be addressed. You should not need a 20# spring
find out why the pistol will not function every time when set up to standard specs.



I am not sure how many pounds of force it takes to rack the slide on a S&W model 41 after a miss fire but when she has one she calls me over ( part of it might be being a new shooter) some of it not enough strength in her hands to grip slide and pull toward her)

Why the miss fires ?? I would be looking at that problem also. There shouldn't be any miss fires.

I don't understand all the talk about power factors, are you shooting competition ?
is she shooting competition ? Powder volume mass ??


using a shock buff (with reg loads) and with the 20lb spring it still gets beat up, and i am not even using top load data

Well sure your pistol is getting beat up--your way over sprung with a 20# recoil spring.

I would not go right to a 10 pound spring, you can go as low as 3.5 grains of B/E powder
with perhaps a 12# spring. it would be a very soft load and the slide should be very, very easy to move to the rear. If you need it even smoother
you can drop your Maine spring to 21#. I would also loose the shock buff--for other
than ultra hot loads they are a problem waiting to happen.
You can also try 4 grains of B/E powder with a 15# recoil spring.
There may come a point that you may have to say the 1911 is just not for your wife--but I doubt it very much.
I can shoot my 1911 all day 200 --300--400 rounds and only work the slide one ( 1 ) time.
Insert a mag and rack the slide--shoot to slide lock--insert another mag and press the slide release to allow the slide to go forward.
I would not mess with the trail boss--to much money and is not needed.
B/E or tite group is all you need and they are not position sensitive.
from some of the things you are saying and commenting about I think you are looking at some things a little to much--not that the learning and knowledge is not important
I would be looking at some other thing also--as in why your pistol needs to be over sprung and why the miss fires.
I can only answer a question as to how it is written and how I interpret it.
So please do not take offense as I am only trying to help.

Sam

[fecmech]

You know I don't understand how millions of reloaders for I don't know how many years ever avoided the dreaded "double charge" without TrailBoss! There have been a gazillion .45 rounds safely sent downrange with that highly compact Bullseye. If one were to load a 185 gr SWC in the .45 auto with 3.5 grs of Bullseye and inadvertantly double charge the case to 7.0 grs of bullseye he would barely have a +P load! Alliant lists 6.7 grs of bullseye with a 185 JHP as a max std pressure load.
I second what Gray Wolf said, put a 12 lb spring in your gun (takes about a minute) give your wife some 185's with 3.5 of BE or 4.7/231 (essentially the same load) and if she still can't rack the slide to load have her cock the hammer first.

PS. After rereading this I don't want it to come across as an attack on you. It irritates me that Hogdon and the ninnies in the shooting rags have made such a big deal about "double charges" and "position sensitivity". They have literally scared the daylights out of most new reloaders. It is very hard to get a more ballistically uniform powder than Bullseye. I would bet a fair amount of money that Bullseye is more uniform in .45 auto ballistics than Trail boss in any loading.

[405]

I really hesitate to get into this thread or any relating to autos, black guns or rack em and stack em type discussions. Too many absolute opinions. But, I do use a light Trailboss load in my 45 ACP 1911 with excellent results. I like Trailboss for most of my reduced, high expansion ratio handgun type cartridges. I use 3.9 gr TB under a 185 hardcast bullet and 3.8 gr Trailboss under a 200 gr softcast bullet. I taper crimp only. My 1911 has about a 14 lb spring. Also, there are NO absolutes about springs either!!! Individual guns and shooters vary slightly as to which spring will work best with which load! I imagine most any suitable reduced charge fast powder like BE, etc. would also work. I have lots of Trailboss, it meters more accurately than most any other flake or fine grain powder in my rotary drum measure and it's bulkiness provides for a margin of "double charge" safety.

[Ford SD]

OK I can't let this go without asking some questions.

If you are shooting a 1911 it should run fine with a 16# recoil spring and a 23#main spring.
That's how it was made to function. So ? #1 Why do you think you need a 20# recoil spring ?
It is not even needed for Plus P loads. If you do it to make your pistol run then you are only masking some other problem that should be addressed. You should not need a 20# spring
find out why the pistol will not function every time when set up to standard specs.

Why the miss fires ?? I would be looking at that problem also. There shouldn't be any miss fires.

I don't understand all the talk about power factors, are you shooting competition ?
is she shooting competition ? Powder volume mass ??

Well sure your pistol is getting beat up--your way over sprung with a 20# recoil spring.

I would not go right to a 10 pound spring, you can go as low as 3.5 grains of B/E powder
with perhaps a 12# spring. it would be a very soft load and the slide should be very, very easy to move to the rear. If you need it even smoother
you can drop your Maine spring to 21#. I would also loose the shock buff--for other
than ultra hot loads they are a problem waiting to happen.
You can also try 4 grains of B/E powder with a 15# recoil spring.
There may come a point that you may have to say the 1911 is just not for your wife--but I doubt it very much.
I can shoot my 1911 all day 200 --300--400 rounds and only work the slide one ( 1 ) time.
Insert a mag and rack the slide--shoot to slide lock--insert another mag and press the slide release to allow the slide to go forward.
I would not mess with the trail boss--to much money and is not needed.
B/E or tite group is all you need and they are not position sensitive.
from some of the things you are saying and commenting about I think you are looking at some things a little to much--not that the learning and knowledge is not important
I would be looking at some other thing also--as in why your pistol needs to be over sprung and why the miss fires.
I can only answer a question as to how it is written and how I interpret it.
So please do not take offense as I am only trying to help.

Sam

may be i can clear up a few questions
you might be doing my problem speed reading
i talked about miss fires in a S&W model 41 (22 rimfire) and the wife can not work the slide (in the 41 it has a internal hammer)

in the model 1911 it is trouble free other than the bullet lube after 300 rounds
(soft sticky lube that i use) starts to slow down feeding of a new round after that many rounds and after 300 plus rounds 1 in 20 or 1 in 40 sticks on the feed ramp and might need a thumb to touch the back of the slide to push it forward and a tooth brush (dry no cleaner) cleans it back up

when i talk about my 1911 getting beat up i mean the shock buff only with 20 lb spring only failures can be directly related to dirt or the very very very odd one related to brass ( the one you look at later and toss in the scrap bucket)
how did i miss that ????

tried pin shooting one year and put the 20lb wolf spring in it (club shoot)( not hot hot 200g at 925fps) and some 230g and it functions every thing fine even light loads with 200g in the 800 fps (min published load)so i never went back to the lighter spring
no internal cosmetic bashing just age and some wear
had to replace disconector but do not think that could be related to the spring just age/ wear

thanks for the comments

[35remington]

The advice to ditch the 20 pound spring for a lighter one is a good bit of advice.

Heavier than standard spring weights of 16 pounds needlessly batter the barrel's lower lug feet as it goes harder into battery. So the heavier spring will likely decrease the gun's useful life rather than extending it. And a 200 at 925 fps is still no big deal for the 16 pound variety anyway. So a 20 is doing yourself no favors.

Conversely, sufficient spring weight is needed to return the slide reliably to battery. Some friction is involved as the slide moves forward to strip the round from the magazine, the "braking" of the slide depending upon magazine spring tension, number of rounds remaining, feed lip shape and how "kachunky" (or lack thereof) the various shaped bullets and magazine combinations are in feeding. Some bullet/magazine/load combinations slow the slide going into battery at different rates. A 1911 shooting puff loads and using an extra wimpy spring may not be reliable, especially with an ill feeding bullet or used with those magazine designs that steepen the cartridge's feed path. This lack of reliability will show up as the slide failing to go fully into battery on occasion.

The shorter the 1911, the worse the idea Shok-Buffs are. The sales propaganda never seems to mention this. But then there's a lot of things sold for 1911's that you don't need so this is hardly surprising.

We're not trying to sell you on the latest trendy thing that has no value or is detrimental. Some of the recommendations that were thought advisable for the 1911 have been exposed as just that.

[casterofboolits]

+1 on what theperfessor said. I teach the same cross body slide racking.

Also, a 20 pound spring does play havoc with the 1911's timing. The 1911 was designed to work with a 16 pound spring and 230 hardball. The reason people started to use 20 pound spring was due to the thinking that lighter boolits and higher powder charges to make IPSC major PF caused increased slide velocity. Atually the 20 pound spring, IMHO, caused a lot of stove pipes by slowing the slide down. Stove pipe clearing drills were a defacto part of IPSC practice.

I do use shock buffs, but check them each time I clean the gun and replace them at the first sign of wear. I have seen a mangled shock buff lock up a 1911 and cause the shooter to lose a match.

+1 on gray wolf's comments too. Try a 16 pound spring, cock the hammer and try the cross body slide rack.

Note: I suffered a stroke that affected my left side and I now have to use the cross body slide rack due to a weakend left hand.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I am in the library and don't have time to read through all of the posts.

Is your fair lady trying to re-cock the gun using the slingshot grip (thumb and forefinger of weak hand or the old manual of arms method using weak hand thumb on slide and fingers over the slide gripping the gun firmly in the other side? If she combines the latter with a forward punching movement of the strong hand, she will more than double the force she is able to apply to the re-cocking action. Worth a try. Don't just struggle with one hand, use them bth for most effect. Good luck.

[geargnasher]

I can't really add much since I'm of the school of thought that the gun needs a 16 lb spring and some light cast boolit loads with Clays or Bullseye as has been mentioned several times. With the cross-body technique your wife should have much less of a problem with that slide.

Two things that come to mind with a weak-handed person shooting automatics: First, it's not much fun for the person if they don't have the ability/knowledge/special technique to be fully independent at the range, and that needs to be ironed out, even if she needs to specific exercises to strengthen her hands. Second, if she can't rack the slide, how can she shoot the gun reliably? Limp-wristing is the #1 cause of FTF, FTGTB, and Stovepipes. While I agree tha tthe 20-lb spring is WAY too strong, I think a little extracurricular strength training would be quite rewarding both to gun handling and to the groups she shoots.

Gear

[20nickels]

I would leave Trail Boss to it's specialty application, large revolver cartridges. There are plenty of common 45ACP plinking recipe's out there.

[9.3X62AL]

BE CAREFUL with that cross-body slide activation regimen--the pistol's muzzle can be pointed at the left elbow very easily if care isn't exercised to avoid doing so.