Fur Damage

[AZ-JIM]

I have recently taken an interest in trying to do some predator hunting (fox and bobcat) and would like to get a few of the pelts tanned. What I am wondering is does anyone have any experience/recomendations for the .243 (cast boolit of course) that won't do damage to the pelts that can't be covered up. Some of the guys out here on a local hunting forum use the .243 but they don't worry about the pelts. Thanks for the help.

az-jim

[Bullshop]

Yes Sir lots of experiance on fox and Lynx, but not with a 243.
What I can tell you is a fox is very tender and even a 223 will ruin one with factory type loads. A cat is not mush tougher either.
Coyotes on the other hand are quite tough and wont ruin so easily even with full power 243 loads with solid hits. Hits around the fringes do lots of damage.
I have found thet even a hornet with thin skin bullets can cause too much damage.
Now I have found the perfect fox cartridge in the 22 CCM. Absolutely deadly on fox but not destructive to the hides.
I am thinking that perhaps if you stay close to the energy level of my Cooper with your 243 you will get the same results. The draw back is you will be giving up most of the long range potential of the 243. My Cooper shoots 50 to 55gn bullets to about 2000 fps. Figure out what that translates to for energy and work up a cast load for you 243 the produces about the same energy and I bet you will get about the same results.

[10 ga]

To kill baddies and still make a $ on the fur you need to go lower than a .22 cal. The professional fur takers will use the 17s for fox and cats. Yotes can handle the .22s easily as Bullshop said, they are tougher. I have killed a whole lot of fox, red and gray, and right now the best out of the box deal w/o doing a wildcat is the .17 fireball. The .17 HMR is OK but much more range limited. The .17 remington is also good but you risk dammage at closer ranges. My real preference is the shotgun. Have 2 #10 ga. set up for just that and they are deadly on most anything inside 65 yds. Also have a 12 ga 870 set for fur hunting. If you're a beginner I'd say use a 12 ga shotgun, if yotes use the hevishot T in dead coyote and modified or light full choke if for fox back off to BB or 2 in hevishot. Yes, you are right, there is a BIG difference between "predator" hunting and fur hunting. If you don't know what you are doing you can easily turn an $80 bobcat pelt into a worthless dead predator. The CF 17s and shotguns will take fox, cats and yotes and if you're good, very little pelt damage. I'm sure there will be others with more info but this info is worth $. Been there and done that, got the T-shirt. Oh yeah, if you want to know what the fur is worth visit North American Fur Auctions and check out the results. I think they are at NAFA.CA That's .CA since they are in Canada. You might also check out the "Coyote Gods" website and BB, bunch of AZ guys on there and I think they'd be glad to help you out. Best, 10 ga

[Bullshop Junior]

I have a NEF Handi rifle in 243. I have tried a few different cast boolits in it, and have found the most accurate to be the 95gn RCBS. I can't remember my load, but it shot better at low velocity. With the load I finally settled on, it shoots about 3/4" at 100 yards.

[Just Duke]

In the 70's I used a .243 with a Hornady 80 grain full metal jacket.

[Bullshop]

When I hunted fur through the winter as my mainstay I tried many different calibers in search of perfection.
When I got to the 17 Rem I was disappointed with it. At very close range with close in coyotes it was causing too much damage because it was blowing up at the surface on impact with zero penetration. I then found at least in my experiance and for coyote it was not nearly as dependable a killer at 200 yards and beyond as was the 222 or other similar cartridges.
Last year my son had a deal to skin and marked for for half the profit from a local hunter. The hunter was using a 204 Ruger and some of the fox were totally worthless.
I would think that for calling where the range is short about the best factory rig would be a 22wrm or a 17 hmr.

[Doc Highwall]

Speer in one of there older loading manuals gave loads for full metal jacketed bullets at reduced velocities for fur bearing animals. The object was to keep the velocity below 2000 fps as it would still destroy the fur even with a full metal jacketed bullet. Most of my experience has been to just blow them up with a 22-250 Remington.

[jhalcott]

A hard alloy like Linotype at a reasonable speed (around 2000 fps to 2400) will work some times. IF you hit bone , the results may not be good. In any case the animal will usually run some distance after the hit. I've tried the .223 and cast and a very down loaded 6mm Reminton to take a few foxes. I used a pointy bullet in the 6mm and a FN in the .223. It is VERY important to hit them in the chest preferring a heart shot, for a quick death.. Most skinned foxes will fit into a bread bag. That means a small target is all you get.

[AZ-JIM]

I have a custom AR (.223) that I built for shooting F-class matches and I will probably start with that but I have a feeling that will get old real quick, as it has a 24" SS bull barrel and weighs over 12lbs with no mag, who wants to carry that all day? I thought the .243 may be a better option (alot lighter anyway) if I can come up with the right load. FMJ's are not legal for hunting in AZ so that is out. Another rifle that may be more suitable for the job will not be in the budget any time soon. I also plan on using the 12ga but like the idea of the challenge with one projectile. I guess there is only one real way to find out what will work. Thanks for the info so far, if there are any more suggestions out there keep 'em comin.

az-jim

[Bullshop]

I have an old Lyman mold for an 80gn Luverin RNGC design. It shoots great from my Rem 788 243. If you want I will send a sample. I agree with JHalcott but I would not exceed 2000 fps. I will dig up my load too if you want.

[Doc Highwall]

Use water dropped wheel weights and keep the velocity below 2000 fps and they will act like fmj bullets helping to keep the damage down.

[10 ga]

Like bullshop Jr said the .22 magnum and .17 HMR are excellent on fox, just keep the range under 100 yd and hope a coyote dosent come in. With the 17 remington you gotta rib shoot coyotes and use the 25 or 30 gr. bullets and they are way to much for fox. As for using a rifle because it "only has one projectile". The object is to make them dead not educate them! Use what gets the job done best! 10 ga

[Bullshop Junior]

In the 70's I used a .243 with a Hornady 80 grain full metal jacket.
That was not much help. We are talking about CAST boolits, not about jacketed bullets that you supposably used in the 70's

[Just Duke]

That was not much help. We are talking about CAST boolits, not about jacketed bullets that you supposably used in the 70's



Well I guess the load you listed that you supposably use now might work then.


I have a NEF Handi rifle in 243. I have tried a few different cast boolits in it, and have found the most accurate to be the 95gn RCBS. I can't remember my load, but it shot better at low velocity. With the load I finally settled on, it shoots about 3/4" at 100 yards.

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot a lot of coyote's and a few foxes. Back when fur prices were really good the best cartridge causing the least damage was the. .223 Rem out of 12" twist barrels using either the Hornady 55 SX (bolt guns) or the Speer 52 gr HP (gas guns). Loaded to 3200 fps out of the bolt guns the SXs killed coyote's out to 400+ yards with 1 shot in the heart lung area. I only got exit holes beyond 200 yards and they were easily repared. With ARs (12" twist) and Mini 14s (10" twist) the same was true of the Speer HP loaded with the same load at 3050 - 3100 fps. The problem these days is the faster twists of .223s. Both bullets will sometimes work in 9" twist barrels if not pushed over 3,000 fps. Better to find a 12" twist rifle or even better, if rebarreleing, a 14" twist.

I also tried the 17 H&R Ultra (very similar to the .17 Rem) and was disappointed with the terminal ballistics. The 22-250 and the .243 caused excessive pelt damage regardles of the bullet used. I found the loaded down fmj's didn't kill that quickly beyond 50 yards and quit using them after losing 2 coyote's that were well hit. After using the Hornady SX and Speer HPs in the .223 I quit searching for 'the load" and went hunting. I still use the same loads today as I've not seen any real improvement with the newer bullets that cost twice as much.

Larry Gibson

[quilbilly]

Up here in my neck of the woods ( Olympic Peninsula), most of my shots at varmints are at ranges of well under 100 yards. I have found any terminal velocity over 2200 fps does a lot of pelt damage with calibers from .22 on up.
My 7mm TCU carbine has an MV of 1900 fps with a 130 gr CB which I have found to be about perfect for hide taking out to about 200 yards.
You shouldn't have any trouble finding a load for your 243 in that area with a CB.

[seppos]

Slow moving cast hollow point from soft alloy in caliber .30 will do the trick..;)

S

[leadman]

AZ JIM, fmj bullets intended for military use are not legal for hunting in Az. The 243 fnj bullets would probably be o.k. Call AZFG and ask.

I have shot coyotes with the 22 WMR, Federal 50gr. bullet. This is slower with more weight and if the range is close to 100 yards it doesn't seem to expand much.
This bullet also works great for cottontails in the rolling foothills that have loose gravel. Just shoot close to the rabbit and the rocks kill it without putting a hole in it.

[home in oz]

leadman, is the cottontail trick kind of like barking a squirrel?

[82nd airborne]

That was not much help. We are talking about CAST boolits, not about jacketed bullets that you supposably used in the 70's

Geez Duke! How dare you mention your results from the 70's!? Oh yeah, I think you meant SUPPOSEDLY. You also forgot to bust out Doc Highwall for using the words Speer and Jacketed.

[Greg in Malad]

AZ-JIM,
If you want pelts for your own use don't worry about exit holes, I've sewn up 2" holes that you couldn't see unless you look at the flesh side. Right now coyote pelts are worth next to nothing, last year the hide buyer said not to bring anything with a bullet hole. I have shot coyote with a .223 and cast lyman 225415's and with a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps+ they left about 1" exit holes at ranges from 75yds to 200yds.

[Bullshop]

I think the original poster was asking about fox specifically. This thread has seemed to go to coyotes and I am as guilty as any for that.
There is a world of difference between the two as far as how much punishment thier hide will take before it either tears or bits are blown away.
Tears can be stitched and if done well even a seasoned buyer will have trouble finding it and degrading the hide for a lower price. When there are pieces blown away it can be stitched but will be easy to see.
The raw fur market has been poor but last year my boys found a good market for fox on the net at a taxidermy site. For this market they must be skinned for a life mount with the feet in. Takes a little more time but for my boys it was worth it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Has anyone used the Barnes Varmint Grenade for this purpose ?
I think it was designed for just this purpose.
I have loaded some, but they were unstable in my Thompson Contender Rifle in 223AI.
I didn't have a fast enough twist for that bullet.
Jon

[AZ-JIM]

AZ JIM, fmj bullets intended for military use are not legal for hunting in Az. The 243 fnj bullets would probably be o.k. Call AZFG and ask.

Yes that is how the regs state it but I never want to be in the situation where I have to try and convince the G&F that my ammo is reloads or some of the varmint specific fmj's etc. How is the officer going to know the difference? Even at that what is the difference, I have a feeling the reason for not allowing fmj's is thier lack of expansion so military or handloads the end result is the same. There is no reason for me to give them a reason to be suspicious of my activities so I keep it simple.

[AZ-JIM]

Has anyone used the Barnes Varmint Grenade for this purpose ?
I think it was designed for just this purpose.
Jon

This subject and the one in my prievious post about fmj's have come up on a local hunting forum as well, and no one seems to have any hard results yet. From what I have seen I think they may work ok on fox and bobcat but my question is what happens on a bigger animal like a coyote if you hit bone, say a shoulder, would there be enough penetration to be fatal?

Anyway this has gotten off topic slightly

[AZ-JIM]

I have an old Lyman mold for an 80gn Luverin RNGC design. It shoots great from my Rem 788 243. If you want I will send a sample. I agree with JHalcott but I would not exceed 2000 fps. I will dig up my load too if you want.

Bullshop, thanks for the offer but now is not a good time financially (saying the samples worked for me) I have access to the 95gr RCBS mould so I will start with that. Thanks again.
I have the Remington 788 too with the 18" barrel, I like it. I "refinished" it a few years ago. This isnt the best photo but it was quick.

[waksupi]

FMJ's ricochet too badly. Just use a hard cast spire point boolit.