Group fired with the Iver Johnson top break in 38 S&W

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/CD1F80B43CD4C22/standard.jpg

The peestol. Made by Iver Johnson, the "Armorers of America's Bedrooms" :-) I've posted other pictures previously, so this one should do for here.

http://www.fototime.com/B8AC5913DE564B1/standard.jpg

A once around the cylinder 5 shot group at 25 yards off the sandbags. It's about 3.5" which I don't think is too bad, when you consider it has a barrel-cylinder gap measurable with a ruler and a front blade so thin you could almost shave with it. I swear, the front blade edge on just about disappears!

The group is very representative of what it will do. Usually you get 3-4 pretty tight and then a one or a couple out but the overall groups generally run about 3 to 3.5" or so. If you just counted the 4 best it'd probably do 2 to 2.5".

This group was shot with the Lyman 35863, a 4 cavity mould I bought from BruceB. It casts the 158gr WC's at .363" using pure lead.

http://www.fototime.com/FF78011EFE76A09/standard.jpg

They get tumble lubed and then as above, they get a trip into a .363" swage die to have a hollow base swaged in. The charge is 1.7grs of W231 in Starline brass with a roll crimp into the middle lube groove. This OAL places the nose of the boolit up into the bore area of the cylinder.

In case anyone is wondering, this mighty revolver launches that hefty 158gr payload at a rather stunning 510 fps :-). HA! I have to shoot 3 of'em to break the sound barrier [smilie=2:

But it's fun.

................Buckshot

[357maximum]

Buckshot

I would be interested in that mach 1/3 load data, the neighbor has one just like it, it used to be mine..I did not like the ejector system[smilie=1:

[9.3X62AL]

One of my three 38 S&W's is an example like this one Buckshot shows here. I have 30-50 rounds in the ammo locker for it, and it gets a field day once in a while. Rick is right, that front sight is pretty fine. I prefer the very stout latching mechanism of the Webley-Enfield--or the solid-frame construction of the S&W M&P--but for a lot of modest folks a century ago, this was what got called into service if trouble came knocking upon or crashing through the door.

If built strongly enough, the "top-break" revolver platform can serve well with medium-powered load intensities. It might be the fastest revolver system for a cylinder re-fill, esp. with HKS-type loaders. A S&W No. 3 with 4"-5" barrel, loaded with 240 grain Keith boolits at 700-750 FPS would be a pretty potent sidearm for keeping one's hide intact, likewise a 45 Schofield--which the 45 ACP closely duplicates ballistically.

[Harry O]

Years ago (yea, its one of those stories), my grandfathers generation started dying off. Many of them had a cheap break-top revolver in a drawer next to the bed. Since I was known as the "gun nut" in the family, they were given to me.

I shot every one of them. Almost all were revolvers. I still have one that is a real S&W (1883 DA breaktop, .38S&W). The others broke between one cylinder-full and a couple of boxes-of-ammo-full. Most were .32 S&W. Some were .38 S&W. A few were .32 S&W Long. I even had one or two in .22 (did you know that a .22LR HV can blow out the side of a smooth-bore .22 derringer that was probably made for BP Longs). I did not try any handloads. They were accurate enough for "arms length" shooting. Sometimes even better than that. I hear what you say about the thin front sight.

Usually, some small spring or hand would break after fairly little use. Many of them would not lock up tight, even when brand new. They used inertia to bring the cylinder around to where it was stopped -- usually, there was nothing to stop it from bouncing back. I quickly learned that spitting lead was commonplace. Iver Johnsons and H&R's were pretty good (not as good as the S&W, but better than the "no-name" kind). Almost all of them had been shot with BP and not cleaned or not cleaned well enough afterward. There was surface rust and often pitting -- especially in the barrel.

Anyway, it was fun and I am glad I had the experience. It makes me appreciate good engineering, good materials, and good workmanship.

[Wayne Dobbs]

What a cool coincidence! One of my Iraqi Police trainers brought a Webley Mk IV to the range yesterday and six rounds of ammo. I got to inspecting the ammo and noted that somebody had cut down some Norma .357 Magnum cases and loaded them with an unknown charge and some round nosed lead bullets that appeared to be 195-200 LRN swaged bullets.

We shot it (with appropriated protective gear on!) and got two complete duds, three squibs that exited and had about 200-300 fps estimated velocity and one that "worked". The gun was really great and in good shape. The ammo, which was reportedly loaded in Tharwa (AKA Sadr City) sucked.....

[44man]

Years ago when I lived in the city someone brought me a .38 S&W to fix. After I finished it I needed a place to test it with the factory loads he left with me. Well, the old mans junker was in the yard so I put some 2X4's on the back floor and leaned the gun over the front seat and shot off 5. Worked great, no one heard it. The surprise came when I pulled the board out. Every boolit was only stuck about 1/3 rd of it's length in the soft pine. Got to wondering what would happen if you had to defend yourself and the bad guy had a winter coat on! Might make him awful mad.

[9.3X62AL]

In the context of stopping power, one wonders what both the British and Russian Empires were thinking about when both exchanged larger, proven calibers for their MUCH weaker replacements--38 S&W for the British service to replace the 455, and (even sadder) the 7.62 x 38R Nagant for the 44 Russian in the Russian sphere.

The British did their best to "improve" the 38 S&W, but there is only so much that can be done with that little, bitty case and the design limits of the platforms that house them. The British service load would move a 178-200 grain bullet at about 700 FPS, so the ballistic performance is nipping at the heels of the 38 Special standard velocity loadings. Not what you would classify as decisive, and I DEFINITELY would not allow any of those loads in any of the house-gun top-breaks. One of the interesting things about the components used to cobble up loads for this revolver--cases are .775" long, but the Beagled Lyman #358430's I used to load for the Webley-Enfield and S&W examples I have are longer than the cases, at .810".

A while back, OKSMLE sent me some samples of a boolit designed for the 38 S&W to duplicate British service load characteristics--NEI's #169A, about 180 grain round nose that gets much of the boolit outside the casing and into the long, sloping nose portion. These shot very well for me, and I'll be ordering one of these molds to feed my 38 S&W's shortly.

Like Buckshot has alluded to earlier in this thread and in prior threads, the 38 S&W in a good revolver is a fun caliber to play around with--cheep to shoot, reasonably accurate in those good revolvers, and enjoyable due to docile recoil. He calls it "unassuming"........good description, really. In these days of predatory attackers primed with various racing fuels like crack or meth/ice--or pre-anaesthetized with heroin--these less powerful handgun calibers have no place as defensive implements, realistically. But as sporting tools, they can provide a lot of fun for not a lot of money to the reloading/handgun enthusiast.

[Four Fingers of Death]

No prob 44, we auusies used to use this round and we always shoot em, right between the eyes! :-) not!

Bit like the 9mm stuff I used in the 60s out of the Owen sub gun, had some rounds stick in the pine supports fot the targets.

After that I swapped the sub gun for a rifle (not that I ever came into harm's way) thinking back, it was probably faulty ammo. Our govt made ammo had always been world standard top quality stuff, but during the Vietnam era there was a fair amount of passive resistance and we had a lot of stuff that didn't work properly. Energa grenades and mortar bombs and main armanent shells for the centurions constantly didn't go off. Previously unheard of. You didn't have a range day where all stopped and one or to of the officers went forward and detonated a dud round.

I was a second Leiutenant and was taught to destroy tank ammo by a major who was a real funny B. Our Regiment always have Officers detonate the misfires. We used to use a spanner with a few studs/pins on it to loosen off the electrically fired primer which was about and inch wide and about six inches long. He said 'it's pretty easy, you just insert the pins on the spanne into the corresponding holes and then unscrew the primer. If it hisses, you have about a second before it exlodes!' He went on to show me how to place the charges, etc. Well next day we were on the range and we had a misfire. Offloaded the crew except for the commander (me) and the driver and the Range Officer (my cheery, wise a$$ed major friend) who climbed aboard and we advanced the regulation 1000metres. The driver dismounted and retired to a safe distance and we carefully unloaded the main armanent and got the bomb on the ground. The driver remounted and took the tank back to the firing line. I started the procedure for removing the primer and I can tell you, I was sweating! I turned the spanner about half a turn and there was an almighty hiss. I thought 'this is it.' Then nothing happended, I sorta sagged a bit and my mind went into overdrive and I worked out that the drill bomb I worked on back at the base wouldn't have been hermetically sealed like the real one in front of me. I then came out of my spell and saw major smartypants, rolling around in the dust, laughing fit to bust. I let loose with a few words I can't repeat here and then went for him. He took off and we ran all over the range with him laughing like a fool until I cooled down. We never found the bomb as the range was a crazy quilt of tank tracks. As far as I know, it is still out there somewhere. This probably happened to every young tank officer who was taught to detonate dud bombs. Military humour, dont'cha just love it? Mick.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Been that long ago (37 years) I misspelt Lieutenant. We pronounce it left-tennent with emphasis on the front of the work, unlike you guys who pronounce it loo-tenant with the emphasis on the end of the word. More useless trivia for you!

As a kid I always used to say that when I grew up I wanted to be a Lt. When mum and the aunties were around I always wanted to be an accountant, I knew how to get the goodies off the ladies! I made 2Lt in the army and just retired from the prison system wearing two stars on my shoulders, which is equivalent to a first Lieutenant. Be careful what you wish for. I must say I tried my harde to be a good leader and not like the character as depicted in the cop movies. Mick.

Mick

[bruce drake]

As a current Captain in the US Army and formerly a Staff Sergeant in the US Marines, I'll fill you in on one reason we Americans pronounce Lieutenant as "LOO-Tenant".

It seems we had a huge number of "Left-tenants" that were drafted for the Second World War. To show our pride in the abilities of those 90-day special "LEFT-Tenants", We Americans in conjunction with our Commonwealth Allies decided to change the pronounciation of the title to better identify where these young officer's leadership skills were best evidenced.

Thus we have "LOO-Tenants":rolleyes:

Bruce

[Swagerman]

OK, back to the Ivy Johnsons, I've got a .32 short hammerless one that's been langhishing in my desk drawer for years.

Wish I could locate an expert Ivy fix-it guy, who knows his stuff when it comes to those stupid internal wire springs and flat springs. The poor little thing needs to be fired.

It has a replacement internal hammer, but couldn't figure out the springs to make it work.

Also, the trigger rebound spring is home made and not the right temper of tension.

Anyone help me on this clunker?


Jim [smilie=1:

[Sixgun Symphony]

Wish I could locate an expert Ivy fix-it guy


A & J Gunsmithing
708 SW 158TH St
Burien, WA 98166-2418
(206) 244-0669

[Swagerman]

Hey! Thanks, I'll give them a call first.

Jim :-D

[Buckshot]

...........Didja try GPC. Friend Larry is infatuated with these old bureau drawer revolters and has found almost all the parts for them there. In fact someone at GPC sent a part from another revolver with instructions on how to modify it to work in his peestol :-)

He'd bought a Merwin & Hulbert in 38RF that I swear looks brand new. I'm proud to say I was able to fabricate a cylinder pin retaining latch for it that went int he front of the frame, under the forcing cone area. Due to the cartridge he can't shoot it, but it looks completer now :-)

..................Buckshot

[Swagerman]

What is GPC, got a link, or address, phone number?

Thanks, Jim

[biggome]

Hey Jimbo!

It has been too long!

GPC is short for Gun Parts Corporation, formerly Numrich Arms Parts Division.

My really old cat of theirs (#21) only gives their phone # (914) 679-2417, they are in West Hurley, N.Y.

They are a great source for replacement parts for such rarities as RG-10's and other less popular out of production treasures, check them out for sure.

Do you still have that nice top break H&R in 38 S&W you offered me a while back?

Paul

[Swagerman]

Well, I guess its been a long time, Paul.

Howya doing.

OK, a few years back I ordered some internal parts from Numnuts Parts, but the help there, don't know which end is up. They sent some wire springs but can't get them to work to engage the hammerless hammer setup.

Also, the flat tension spring on the trigger was not available at that time, so, tried to make one and it don't work either.

I need a guy who knows these guns inside out, but its such a cheap piece of crap I hate to spend any money on it...but still wish it would shoot.

Guess I should just leave it in my desk drawer and forget about it.

Paul, are you still racing them hot rods of yours. Are you still fixing that old man's pickup camper. :mrgreen:

Take care.


Jim


This is the H&R I use to own, it was a pretty good shooter, accurate to 25 yards. It was .38 S&W caliber.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P7200008HR38SWcaliberrtp.jpg