Lube test

[Bullshop]

I hope this is OK that I coppied this from the lube forum and brought it here where others may appreciate it.
#1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1017813&postcount=1) chuebner (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=1468)
Boolit Master
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/ranks/nramember.gif (http://www.nra.org/)

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pompano Beach, Fl
Posts: 253


BP Lube Test
This weekend I performed a lube test with some very pleasant results. The load is my standard Lyman 457125 "beagled" to .463 as cast over 62gr. GOEX 2F, WW cases and Wolf LR primers. This bullet has four substantial lube grooves which carry a good amount of lube. The rifle is my M1888 Springfield which slugs at .450 X .460 and shoots sub 3" groups at 100yd with this load. I pan lubed 10 each of the Lyman bullet with Bullshops NASA lube, SPG, Emmert's and White Label. Normal procedure has been to take a shot and then blow tube 3 slow steady breaths to keep fouling soft. This experiment was to see if I could take a string of shots with no blow tubing or wiping between shots and have the lube itself keep the fouling in check.

Long story short, the SPG, Emmert's and White Label lubed bullets failed miserably. Groups opened up after 5 shots and there was a hard, crunchy fouling deposit about 3-4 in. in from the muzzle on each of these lubes. The pleasant surprise was with the Bullshop NASA lube. Accuracy stayed the same for all ten shots and I was surprised to find a damp patch pushed through the bore with ease, no resistance and no crunchy deposits.

Bullshop NASA Lube WOW!!!

I'm not saying the other lubes are no good but if I can eliminate the blow tubing or wiping between shots... well guess what I'm going to do.


Good job Bullshop.

Charlie

[Springfield]

I love the stuff in my BP cowboy guns. Sure wish I could figure out what he uses for scent in it though. I smell it and I KNOW I have smelled it before, just on the tip of my tongue kinda thing, but I just can't place it.

[Bullshop]

Awhile back someone sent me a link to a cowboy site where a fella tested several lubes in BP revolver. I dont remember the name of the place but remember that he had about the same results with NASA in that application.
We worked on the NASA formula after attending the Quiggley shoot and seeing how many folks were having serious lube issues when it was 106 degrees in the sun on the firing line.
Our first lube line for BP was called #2 lube to distinguish it from our #1 lube, Speed Green. The NASA lube came about as an improved version of the #2 lube. We were specifically trying to develop a lube that was better for high temp and low humidity conditions.
Turns out that the NASA lube also works very well for cold weather smokeless loads too.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Must be quite humid in FL, a excellent test would be in 80'-90's temps and RH of 6-12% common place here in Wyoming and MT and NM.

I have personally tested over a dozen lubes over the years, and all work if the RH is over 32%. Once it slips below 30% the list of what works gets much shorter.

KW
The Lunger

[Bullshop]

But Kenny lets be fair. Under the conditions of the test NASA won hands down.
You always seem to be knocking my product and I have to wonder if you have ever even used them.
So why dont you do the same test under your normal conditions? Make it as tough as you want just test all lubes the same way. Use the same lubes and add any others you like. If then you find my lubes to be inferior to any others knock away.
What I got from the test was that there are better commercially available lubes than the accepted norm SPG and Emmett's. There may be other secret formula that work even better but those are not available to everyone.
I am guessing you will respond that you now shoot PP so you have no need to test lubes. If that is the case then why do you seem to give negative comment on my lubes whenever they are mentioned in these BP forums on this site and BP forums on other sites?

[Don McDowell]

Bullshop I offered to take a couple of sticks of lube you offered up for trial, but you never responded.
But the offer still stands. The wife has a new rifle, we've got a new to us bullet mould coming for it. You want to send a stick or two of lube, we'll put em thru the paces and give a fair and honest evaluation.
Otherwise you may want to start watching the shoot announcements and sending a couple 3 sticks to the various match directors as prizes. That's a pretty decent way of getting your stuff spread about also.

[waksupi]

I would like to see a test of this, also. The High Plains certainly are the toughest environment for any BP lube to work in. I know many lubes people are happy with in moister climates, don't work for squat here. Bore Butter in muzzle loaders is a prime example. Test on, please!

[Bullshop]

Now dont get me wrong. I never said NASA was perfect and a cure for all lube ills.
I am saying in my and others experiance under equal conditions it has shown to be at worst equal to or better than any lubes that are commercially available to all shooters or formula that are available to all shooters.
Don
PM me your address and I will get those right off to you.
Sorry if I missed you the last time.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bullshop,

I got cross threaded with the Claims of National Champion shooters at Raton using your lube. when it was just not so. Having shot Nationals every year since 1996 I know what and Who win every year.

I still use GG bullets in Silhouette, I still stand by my statement that if RH is over 32% Any lube seems to work.

However this past weekend RH was in the 9 to 12% at the Ranch and Would of made an excellent testing ground for Lube.

My address is

Kenny Wasserburger
817 Glacier Drive
Gillette, WY 82718

[Don McDowell]

11836 county line Road
Ft. Laramie. Wy
82212.
Looking forward to giving it a good run. Thanks.

[Bullshop]

Kenny
I think you may be twisting my words a wee bit. I think what I said is it has showed up in the winners circle at some of the national events like MT long range and some silhouette championships at Raton and maybe others like Quiggley.
In my view there are at least three winners in every class and prises are generally given to those first three places. I dont recall ever saying that it was with the first place winner. Although in the case of Steve Whitt at Quiggley it should have been. I felt that Steve got cheated out of first and second place having only one less hit than the first place shooter but doing it with 4 fewer shots.
You see Steve broke a firing pin in his Shiloh Sharps at the off hand event and ran down to thier booth for a new one. By the time he got back he had been out of the rotation for 4 shots and they did not let him make them up. I felt for a heat that close for top honors they should have given him the chance. So he had to accept third even though he was tied for second. As you may know ties are decided by the most hits at the off hand target and that was the one that he broke his firing pin on.
Anyway you may also know the Klendenins, Butch and Linda from ND. That same year Linda was the top female shooter at Raton for one of the national events. I assume she also was using our lube because Butch loads all her ammo and just shortly before that shoot he bought a large quantity from me. He told me they had been using SPG but she was getting a little leading at the muzzle. He said that using our lube not only prevented the leading she was getting but it cleaned it out of her barrel. I also seem to remember the same year she won the MT long range championship at Forsyth
So there were no false claims, though possibly misleading using the word national.
Like I said in a previous post not a cure all but better than most under equal conditions.
No matter how good any lube is there will always be a time some time some where that conditions are so poor that it will come up short on its own without help. But when one consistently shows itself to work a bit better compared to others under equal conditions wouldn't it be wise to go with that one over those others?
Now would you be testing our lube by itself to see at what point in humidity it may fail or would you be comparing it to the other top lubes available to all shooters?
I am only interested in a comparison because as I said I am not touting our lube as a cure all but as possibly a better choice.
If you will be comparing I will supply our lube. What would you prefer cake or stick?

[chuebner]

Springfield,

I know what you mean about the scent. It reminds me of some real strong black tea I had about a year and a half ago. Can't remember the name or where I got it and I miss brewing it.

Kenny,

Today was a dry day down here, currently 80 degrees with only 60% humidity.

I'm actually lubing up another batch of BPCR bullets with NASA lube right now. This time they are the Rapine 460-500. Similar to the Lyman 457125 but with only three lube grooves. This bullet also shoots quite well for me but the Lyman seems to shoot just a tad better.

Charlie

[Don McDowell]

Bullshop I'll take cake please, and send an invoice with it. If I like it I'll gladly pay, and order another.
Test will be up against Harlans Sagebrush Alox.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bullshop,

I would test it against Whitelighting Lube. However Linda Clenden has never been the top female shooter at Raton in any National Event. She has been top shooter at other gong events but never a NRA Nationals, they also shoot Smokless at the gong shoots, not BP I know I have known them for years they attended my first match I held in 96 at our Family Ranch.

KW
The Lunger

Cheubner, at that RH 60% any lube on earth would work in my opinion, and that is not Dry where I come from.

KW
The Lunger

[Bullshop]

I cant remember where I got that info about Linda but seems like it came from the BPC News.
What is whitelighting? Where is it available? You prefer cake or stick?

"Cheubner, at that RH 60% any lube on earth would work in my opinion, and that is not Dry where I come from."

But Kenny he said in his test that the other lubes well received by most shooters failed. In that case your statment cant be correct.

[chuebner]

Bullshop,

Cheubner, at that RH 60% any lube on earth would work in my opinion, and that is not Dry where I come from.

KW
The Lunger

In your opinion any lube should work but my informal testing proved otherwise. Commercial SPG and White Label along with homemade Emmert's failed. I plan to test further with my Sharps and Rolling Block but I anticipate the results to be the same. If the commercial lubes fail in our humidity here I would imagine they truly suck in the arid conditions where you are located.

Charlie

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I Can honestly say that SPG or DGL or Black Magic or any other lube I used never failed, in Humidity over 32%, all one has to do is blow enough, 5-8 Deep breaths is what I use in all conditions. 3 Breaths in a long trapdoor barrel would never work for me.

KW
The Lunger

PS.

Let me clarify some thing, I do not care much for being called a liar, Linda Clendenin has NEVER WON A NATIONAL NRA EVENT or High Female in Silhouette or Long Range (she never has shot it) or Mid-Range She has never shot that either. She has only tried her hand at NRA Silhouette at Raton. I have the results for every year that they have ever attended and and prove it.

Lastly I take exception to your statement that I can't be correct, Fouling control no mater the Lube is easy, when Humidity is over 32% I have Kept very careful records for nearly 15 years on this very thing all it requires is that you stay hydrated and blow Correctly. I saw my own daughter and many other shooters, foul out in 80 deg temps and 35% humidty due to incorrect blowing. Huffing on the blow tube and correct blowing are two totally different things.

I dont like being called a Liar, when I have 10's of thousands of rounds down range with a noritious fouling cartridge such as the 45-110. This is a lube test of the extreme when using this cartridge in long range competition. I have tried so many different lubes that it is not even funny, btw all lubes fail when temps exceed 90' and the humidity drops below 18%. ALL LUBES Fail as you can not keep the fouling hydrated to stay soft, the moisture flashes off and the barrel temps are to high.

At this stage of the game Wipping comes into play and its what the winners use period. This is not based on what I heard or might of read this comes from actual experience at actual matches.

White Lighting lube was concocted by Dan Theodore, contains no beewax, any lube that contains bees Wax will fail when RH drops below 20%. Try 106 deg temp and RH of 6% been there done it several times.

Since You are calling me a liar, which I do take exception too, I withdraw my offer to test this lube of yours, since My opinion-findings would be of no value to you, as you feel I am not a honest person.

Rest assured though that your continued claims of this being used by National Champions at NRA Raton will be corrected at every turn on the Web.

KW

[felix]

Kenny, you have observed correctly about the humidity being a "lube" factor. Casting results are much improved during and within a condensing atmosphere. Try it sometime when the dew is falling. ... felix

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Felix,

I have heard of this, Shiloh has also mentioned that when casting their Steel how Humidity affects the Quality and speed of Casting Steel even.

back when I first started shooting BPCR in 1994 I had good days at the range with my 110 then bad days. I started tracking Humidity, and low and behold, I found a corralation.

KW
The Lunger

[Doc Highwall]

felix, would rain count as a condensing atmosphere.

[cajun shooter]

Chuebner, I asked this question to you on the lube section. What White Label lube were you using? Lars has not made any BP lube for close to two years. I still have a few of the old tubes and was wondering were yours came from.

[John Boy]

More on the break point of Relative Humidity and Temperature effecting bore foul
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=13.msg26591;highlight=relative+hum idity#msg26591

The hygroscopic behavior of the residue left by black powder will vary.
The biggest effect on how hygroscopic a powder's residue will be is in a way regulated by the ratio of potassium carbonate to potassium sulfate. According to the writings of Noble & Abel you would expect to see 3 to 4 parts of potassium carbonate for every part of potassium sulfate. Potassium carbonate is funny stuff. Below 30% R.H. it is non-hygroscopic. Above 30% R.H. it becomes increasingly more hygroscopic and ends up being deliquescent above 80% R.H.

In looking at how the powder residue behaves you must take into account both the relative humidity and the temperature at the time. This determines the amount of water being held in the air. Grains of water per cubic foot of air. In essence the 30% R.H. is the break point between non-hygroscopic and hygroscopic but then you must look at how much water is available in the air to sort of satisfy the thirst of the fouling.

Dan, in support of your NASA Lube: I shoot Dan Theodore's Mini Groove bullet. Due to the shallow depth of the bullet's GG's, wanted a lube that would fill and stay in the grooves when they were pan lubed. NASA does the trick: no lube starvation or leading

[cajun shooter]

Kenny, I am sorry that you and Bullshop could not see eye to eye as I think a test by you would be one that was etched in concrete. It is known that you don't lie and I respect your shooting ability. That would make the test very valid because you and Don, a man I also respect very much would have very solid proof of what NASA could do and not do. When I first made my own lube I was feeling very proud of myself on how well it worked. I then read a posting about lubes in high humidity by someone on this forum and my bubble burst. My first trip west of the Mississippi showed me why you need to carry chap stick in your pocket. It also showed me why a Cajun from Louisiana should not drink 6 beers at 10,500.

[felix]

Doc, the answer is maybe, but only maybe. Look at JohnBoy's boxed quote for a feeling of why or why not. In other words, if the atmosphere feels "tacky" then, yes, that is what you are looking for. It is the small molecules of water that get into the miniscule holes in the steel/iron/whatever. ... felix

[waksupi]

Kenny, I wish you would go ahead and do testing on this. Between you and Don, I would have testimonial, good or bad I can rely on.

[John Boy]

I saw my own daughter and many other shooters, foul out in 80 deg temps and 35% humidity due to incorrect blowing. Huffing on the blow tube and correct blowing are two totally different things.
Kenny's statement is absolutely correct ...
I took my advice from Bill Knight, aka Dutch Bill about blowing. His advice based on his numerous experiments is:
Below 30% RH - 12 good blows into the bore to put moisture into the potassium bicarbonate left in the bore which is the primary component of the residue
Above 30% RH - 5 good blows into the bore
I'm a blow tuber for the most part and depending on the bullet being fired (with or without scraping capability), have followed Bill's advice and determined it to be effective putting moisture in the bore to control the fouling.

Might add: to factually determine the RH & temperature when I pull the trigger, I have ordered a relative humidity/temperature meter instead of relying on the RH/Temp for any given day and time posted on Weather Underground. It's small to put in the range box and cheap to boot - 6 bucks

[Bullshop]

Kenny I think you are maybe a bit too testy. It seems by your measure we have both been called liars.
You seem pretty confident that you know all the records and maybe so but for certain I didn't just make up from thin air the things I told you. If the announcements in the BPC News were wrong then I may have passed on bad info but I didn't just make those things up. I believed them to be true when I wrote them.
I never have outwardly called you anything, just inferred that our information was different. Its been too long gone now for me to try to find the sources of info I got that from so it makes no difference anyway.
I and about everyone else here know of your achievements in this game and I am sure all respect that, I do. If my advertising has offended you that much I will try to get it changed. Not so easy for me to do since I am not the actual person that can do the change. I will email the one that can and try to change it so there will no longer be anything misleading or offencive to anyone.
I will also apologise to you personally for offending you. Without actually saying it there is I suppose an inference to lying and there shouldn't be. My apologies to you, I am sorry.
It matters not to me if I never sold another stick of lube in my life. What does matter to me is going through life gathering enemies, a thing I dont want to do.
In the grand scheme of things boolit lubes have little bearing on what is important. I would rather focus on those things that are.
If you do choose to attack me at every opportunity as I think you have said you will only be attacking my character since you have never actually tried my product it would have little to do with the actual usefullness of that product. If you wish to continue doing that its OK with me too. I am no more than just another less than perfect man and confess to many character flaws.
My apologies to all!!!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Don McDowell]

John those handheld weather machines are a big help. Dick Savage always has his in his cart and makes notation in his log book of temp humidity etc. On the Sunday leg of the this past Sagebrush fouling control started needing a bunch more attention. When we got off the line Dick checked the machine, temp had jumped to 104 and humidity dropped to 12%. That's when a good wiping routine really starts to pay dividends.

[John Boy]

That's when a good wiping routine really starts to pay dividends.
A big Amen!
And of course we could get into a long thread about what is best to apply to the patch.!:coffeecom :popcorn:

[Don McDowell]

:holysheep Yup the best wiping formula and technigque could fill volumes, and there's no wrong answer.
I will throw in tho that in the conditions we generally shoot in out this direction, if 4 good deep breaths that leave visible droplets in the tube don't keep the fouling soft , it's best to put the tube away and get the wiping rod into action.
I think most people just use the blow tube for a passifier and don't really stay hydrated enough to get the really moist breath from deep in the lungs.

[Bullshop]

**Bull Shop Mom here**
Kenny - i am sorry to get invloved but you said *Let me clarify some thing, I do not care much for being called a liar, Linda Clendenin has NEVER WON A NATIONAL NRA EVENT or High Female in Silhouette or Long Range (she never has shot it) or Mid-Range She has never shot that either. She has only tried her hand at NRA Silhouette at Raton. I have the results for every year that they have ever attended and and prove it.*

here is the quote from our site * Dan has been casting bullets and loading ammo for over 25 years. This is a custom service, where you get what you want. Bull Shop products are used by competeters around the country, to achieve top scores in long range events, such as Lodi, Quiggly, Ratone, Montana long range championships, etc. Dan has experience with his products, and we use them almost daily, for fun and harvest. If you are not happy we are not happy.*

I see that Linda has won many national events, even the Quigley - I am sorry if Dan used the wrong terms - -- he just mentioned that we had people winning national matches *like* Raton - Quigley - Lodi - etc.and we have. Linda has won national matches (mabe not Raton) or come in in the top numbers, and she has used our lubes.

here a just a few of the results

Tina- Bull Shop Mom
Ladies: 1. Linda Clendenen, Amidon, N.D., 42 hits; 2. Kathy Coates, Bowman, N.D., 38; 3. Marie Reich, Payson, Ariz., 35. http://billingsgazette.com/news/features/outdoors/article_d0554bc0-66be-11de-aaae-001cc4c03286.html

Winners (in open classes) were: match winner - fired with scope - Gregg Simon, Mobridge, S.D. 27 out of 40; 2nd - fired with a scope - Ray Hanson, Twin Valley, Minn., 24 of 40; 3rd - Rick Jorgenson , Devils Lake, 22 of 40 (iron sights); 4th - Collin Weisz, Washburn, 19 of 40; 5th - Linda Clendenen, Amidon, 19 of 40; 6th - Ronald (Butch) Clendenen 17 of 40. http://www.bismarcktribune.com/sports/recreation/article_1e2dda2a-6d8b-5adf-a62e-36669e99e47f.html

2010 Montana 1,000 Yard Match Results
Target Target Target Target Total Total Total
Place Name 1 2 3 4 1 & 2 3&4 Score
1 Ron Vandenbrink 4 8 7 6 12 13 25
2 Clint McRae 6 7 7 5 13 12 25
3 Randy Ellingrod 8 7 8 2 15 10 25
4 Linda Clendenen 10 6 4 5 16 9 25
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3712&start=0

Match Awards went to:
High Overall: Linda Clendenen – 29/42
2nd Overall: Gregg Simon - 27/42
3rd Overall: Butch Clendenen – 23/42
1st Senior: Butch Clendenen – 23/42
1st Lady: Linda Clendenen – 29/42
2nd Lacy: Cecile Wiechmann – 15/42
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/match_results/2010_MAY_Sage_Brush_BPCR_results.htm

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bullshop,

There is only one Governing body that HOLDS NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS.

THE NRA.

QUIGLEY IS NOT A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP VENUE IT IS A PASTURE SHOOT.

WHERE BP OR SMOKLESS IS ALLOWED.

I STAND BY MY STATEMENTS, LINDA HAS NEVER WON A NRA NATIONAL EVENT. They use smokless in their rifles at these matches-shoots. Which are matchces with no National governing board or ruling body.

its simple you dont know what a national championship event is.

Quigley or the montana 1000 yard matches are not national championship events.

We are talking two different animals, you really dont have a clue it would appear, as Raton, NRA requires BP ONLY.

However she has won the Q and been high lady there more then a few times, and Alliance and other matches she has even won my match. none of which are NRA events. I see she shot a 19 at the ND state silhouette match that is NRA Event but she did not win it.

These pasture shoots are not like Raton in any shape or form, I know I shoot both quite often.

KW
The Lunger

I do accept your apology and perhaps I can test your lube.

[felix]

Kenny, please change "perhaps I can test your lube" to "I will be happy to test your lube". There is no need for these arguments, even though you are technically correct, Kenny. Everyone knows of your esteemed stature in the BP arena. ... felix

[Bullshop]

I am 55 years old and still not a day goes by that I dont learn something.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Now if you and Don are still watching would you prefer the lube in cake or stick?
I will run a fresh batch for you and Don.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Felix,

your of course right, I screwed up that last statement.

After Rick aka waksupi, and Cajin, and yourself's statements.
And some serrious thinking today while bouncing around the Powder river Breaks, I came up with some ideas.

I was looking at Steve Meacham's new lube Pump sizer and luber and was thinking this would be an excellent venue too test this lube, its just under $70 and I am willing to fork out that much for the tool and thus would not have to clean out either of my lubesizers, one holds SPG the Other White lighting Lube.

I am going to attempt to call Steve and see if I can get his 458 die and if he would knock out a .377 Die for my Tack Driver 38-50 which is my go to rifle at this time for Silhouette.

Swiss powder and a warm Dry day here would offer and excellent test venue. Also Dora my 25lb Sharps while a primary PP rifle, this would also offer an excellent test bed to try some Mono-Groove bullets that i used in my old 45-110 to win in 2006 at Raton.


Tubes would work best Bullshop. If I can get it soon enough before cold weather sets in. To give it a honest evaluation, I would give it a real honest effort and Test and would also like to take it to Phoneix next March for some playing at the Silhouette range.

KW
The Lunger

[Doc Highwall]

OK now we are getting somewhere. Somebody of known shooting ability with the means and known equipment to run the test. :drinks:

[cajun shooter]

THANK YOU KENNY!!! Now we will have a test that we know is correct and have no doubt about the who did the input. I only wish that I could jump in my truck and pick up Felix on the way. We could even stop and bring Don also.

[SharpsShooter]

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/EatingPopcorn.gif


This ought to be interesting........I wonder how KW likes his crow...medium or well.


SS

[Kenny Wasserburger]

What ever are you talking about Sharpshooter?

KW
The Lunger

[Bullshop]

Since time seems important I just packaged up what I had on the shelf and will get it off on our next trip to town, maybe today.
I know the cold comes to the high plains not long after it comes here and we have been frozen for a couple weeks now. Not below zero yet but real close to it.
Four hollow sticks each to Don and Kenny. That should be enough for about 1000 boolits for each of you.

cajun shooter
I wana go too!

[Don McDowell]

Thanks Bullshop , looking forward to giving this stuff a try.

In all seriousness any of you guys want a great experience in bpcr shooting need to plan to attend Kenny's Creedmoor. Especially if you could get there a day or so early , so some of the top guns that are there have a bit more time to answer question and hand out advice if you ask... Excellent place to learn about long range shooting.

[Bullshop]

OH MAN! I sure would like that but just cant afford to. I like to think that my place cant get by without me too.
We have no BPCR anything here where I live accept me and my boys going to the gravel pit for fun ocasionally. I have even considered selling off my rifles but when someone asks how much all I can seem to do is studder and stammer and not really answer.
I do like to use them so maybe thats enough. I hunted with a 50/90 last year just to maybe justify keeping them.
Hope that all goes well there and will be looking forward to hearing about it.

[Gellot Wilde]

I bought some NASA last year, just to try it, was getting leading problems. Since switching to it my scores have gone up and the leading problems have improved no end...almost gone completely.

I shoot short range only thesedays, so max 300M all off the sling as per MLAIC rules...guess you could say it's precision....2" bullseye at 100M. I don't shoot as many rounds as some of the guys here for sure...700 last year and had an average of 96 at 100M...can't remember the others..but I got 'em written down somewhere. I also had a big win (by our standards anyway) early on in the year using NASA lube shooting a 98@100M a 93@200M and 92@300M.

I like the way it sticks to the grooves, even on shallow lube grooves..it's a real pleasure to use...have even used it on some smokeless loads in my Webley Mk.VI...it worked a treat.

The Bullshop was very friendly to deal with and sent the lube to me here over the pond in pretty quick time, even bothering to get the exact postage rate which was very kind indeed.

I've been rivited to this thread, but didn't think it was my place to chip in as I'm not using the NASA in the conditions some of you guys are...look forward with intrest to reading about further testing.

8-)

[Bullshop]

G'Day Mr. Wilde
I am glad to hear of your good shooting with NASA and very glad you spoke up too.
I would like to hear a little more still about what you are shooting, rifle/cartridge and a bit about your loads too.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Gellot, I take it your shooting short range Muzzle loaders. The scaled down version? The Leading issues you mention going away are interesting to say the least, Bullshop also commented that the Clendens leading issues, I know they use smokless quite a bit in the Gong matches they attend. But if your shooting Muzzle loader with BP that makes this more interesting yet.

KW
The Lunger

[Gellot Wilde]

I do shoot the same short range matches 1-300M with a muzzle loader (100M competition is very popular here, it's got the largest following in official FFT matches of any I believe) but I was talking about BPCR. The muzzle loader hasn't been tried with NASA as yet as my own lube seems to be ok...that's going to be the next test when we get time.

The rifle is a Ballard No.4 Perfection(one of the Cody built ones) which is in .45-90...I know they didn't produce one in that back in the day, but it was just easier as I was already shooting that in a Pedersoli which my wife now shoots.

My current load is 75gr of Swiss No.4, OP wad cut from newsprint, .030 King veg wad with a Buffalo Arms Creedmore 540gr bullet which drops at .460 and reads just under 5 on the Saeco LHT. For the primers I use CCI Large Pistol as it's about the only ones I can be sure to buy here. The bullets are pan-lubed with NASA after they have usually sat for a month or so...I normally lube them a day or two before a match.

My wife is shooting the same load in her Pedersoli but with Remingtion cases and a .060 veg wad. Last year her average at 100M over the same number of rounds fired as myself was 92.

Rob

[martinibelgian]

Rob,

Pretty good performance - for those not accustomed to the European targets, the 10-ring on the 300m-target is 1 1/2MOA, the 9-ring about 3 1/2MOA. Anything above 90 is a pretty good score indeed. Even a 98 at 100 is nothing to sneeze at.
Add to that shooting with sling only, no support, and that makes for a more than decent score... I trust we'll see you at the Souppes Int'l match next year?

[Bullshop]

Yup surenuff some good shootin.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Wish you guys could make it to the USA an shoot with us at Raton. These days in Ratons Dry hot climate, to even place in mid Range events, 200-300-600 yards you have to shoot 100- and a handful of X's at 200 yards alone, I shot a 98-2X and did not even place this year. The X ring at 200 is 1.5 MOA, at 300 MOA and 600 MOA. The 10 ring is 7 inches at 200 and 300 at 600 its 12 inches. Fun Matches, sounds like good shooters over there also.
KW
The Lunger

[Gellot Wilde]

Sorry for the late reply, we've been away at a comp this weekend...sadly not BPCR and my performace was terrible...but the little lady did us proud.

Thanks for the more than kind comments guys and Gert...we should try to link up and shake hands at Souppes next year...would be a pleasure...are you shooting the Martini again? We probably passed each other last year and didn't even realise.

That's the dream I guess Kenny...just to stand at Raton would be enough, let alone shoot a few rounds...hallowed ground to me...we keep looking into it but there's always something else finacially that gets priority.

[martinibelgian]

Rob,
At least now I know I have to look for the guy with the Ballard - there won't be all that much around. And yes, I'll be shooting some kind of Martini. of course!

Kenny,
Still intending to make the trip over and shoot wherever in the US. Would be nice to meet some of the Cape Town 2006 faces again... Those midrange matches, are they X-sticks of prone, with sling? Looks like a pretty challenging target indeed - at least if you have to clean it to even place...
I'll make it over - I don't know yet when, but it's high on the priority list for sure!

[Bullshop]

Don -
sorry we did not see this post until just this AM - we already sent the lube out - we sent it in stick form. Tina


Bullshop I'll take cake please, and send an invoice with it. If I like it I'll gladly pay, and order another.
Test will be up against Harlans Sagebrush Alox.

FYI, In light of this discussion and to appease any offended parties we have also had the information changed on our site. There is no longer any reference to anyone winning anything using our products.

[Don McDowell]

Don't sweat it, the sticks will work fine as well.
thanks.

[Don McDowell]

Don't let the postal service fool ya, they can get stuff delivered in a timely fashion when they want to.... Got the lube today . Looks good.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I also got mine last night home late from work then off to Lodge for work, so have not opened it yet, with luck its going to get some going over this coming weekend.

KW
The Lunger

[semtav]

I'm curious what the parameters to a good lube test would consist of.
I've amassed a good collection of lubes thinking of doing a test this summer, but never got to it., and now that its cool and damp, I'll probably wait til next summer.
I've got:
SPG,
DGL
NASA
Shavers Black Moly
X ring
and Homemade.

But I still don't have any good parameters to conduct one.

I thought SPG was the cats meow with my microgroove money bullets in the 45-90 this spring, then one day the sun came out and the temp got over 80 and someone turned the switch off, on its ability to keep my fouling soft.

[Bullshop]

Sematv
I think we are about to find out.

[cajun shooter]

Semtav, Steve Garbe himself will tell you that in certain conditions his SPG is not a cure all. I make my own and it works wonderful from my 34 inch bbl and Louisiana heat and humidity. I have never shot at Raton or any of the big matches. Just in Mississippi, Texas and here. With my recent news of only breathing on one lung I think my dreams have been put away. I have been all over the country and through Raton many times and my dream was to shoot from that firing line. Lubes are very different and they have conditions where they all will fail as KW pointed out. That is another thing that makes this sport so much fun. There are no list on what works everywhere. You also might want to throw in Dan T's White Lightn'. As KW pointed out in another post below 30% humidity you have to wipe.

[montana_charlie]

Sematv
I think we are about to find out.
I dunno. Like Semtav, I think this year's time for testing has already passed...unless they're having a heat wave down in Wyoming.

CM

[Bullshop]

I dont know Charlie. I dont think the idea was to find out at what point the lube will fail. I think the idea was to find out if one performed better than another under the same conditions.
We have already established that under certain conditions all lubes will fail. I think it will take a long time shooting in all possible conditions to determine at what point each individual lube will fail and how far spread those will be. Some may fail at close to the same point and some may show a clear edge over the others.
I think to get a clear picture the test would have to run year round with some shooting done in each month with an eye on extreme weather conditions.

[Don McDowell]

Well it's crowding above 80 today and tommorrow. Cold front coming next week.But nothing that would stop a fella from shooting a little bit if he wants to..
But to those that put their rifles away when the weather turns cool, you may find it somewhat of a surprise that even at or below freezing with 15% humidity lubes will still "fail".
And yes its a royal pain to have to wipe with patches stiff with frost crystals.... and blowtubes with metal tubes are a unique learning curve in their own right....
Long story short the initial test I had planned will go on this fall/winter. Spring brings in some mid 70's and dry days as well.The long term results from serious match shooting won't happen until May... but in the mean time I'll have a pretty fair idea of how well this Nasa lube is going to do by the time the first relay of the first match is called to the line.

[Bullshop]

80"S wow!!!!! We have been getting snow for several days. My boys were riding snow machines last night.
We are cold but we are also dry. Like Don said try dealing with hard fouling at -30, think antifreze.

[Don McDowell]

Yessir matter of fact they just put up RED Flag warnings thru tommorrow night.
We're terribly dry and hot. Not usuall fall weather for sure.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I live here in very dry place. Today humidity is 15%. It has been as low as 2% this year. Normal is around 10%. Our average rainfall is 1" a year.
The only lube I have for BP is olive oil & beeswax and I make my own. The dryer it gets the bit more olive oil I add to my little lube mixing pot.
Now all I have to test with is a 1903 made 44-40 SRC with a 20" barrel. My favorite boolit for it is the Saeco 443 220 grain. It does not have deep lube grooves but seems sufficient as I have never had any failure of lube. I do not blow between rounds and generally fire no more than 10 before running a wet patch through the bore. I do not have a bench to shoot off but use cross sticks. This rifle holds 3" at 70 yards and seems to not loose any of that through 10 shots.
For BP all I have is an unknown brand that looks like 3F to me. The bees wax I use is from a local candle factory that make religous candles. I have no idea of the bees or what they eat but this batch of wax does not seem to cause lube failure under my low RH factors. But then again a 44.40 is not a 45-70 or 50-70 or a 45-120 and a 20" barrel is a far cry from a 32".
Another factor that I should have added is temperature. an average day is 75 may get to 83 as we are at 8000 feet and my range is at 9000.

[semtav]

We got up in high seventies here too, but 55% RH. Great day for spraying Roundup.
Would have been a great shooting day, but prob one of my last good work days.
Howling wind coming tomorrow.

[Don McDowell]

I wanted to spray some bind weed when we got a good senging frost. Problem came we didn't get a senging frost, we got hard freezes and knocked it down. Won't do much good to spray it now. Next year.....

[kokomokid]

I have had good luck with SPG till I tried a new bullet with slightly smaller grease groves, It was 80* with 20% humidity. No amount of blow tubing would get me past the 7th round of a ten shot string with out hard dry fouling on the last 6" of my bbl. This was on a 40/65 using swiss 1.5 . Anyone have a good lube formula for the warm and dry in a 32" bbl?

[Don McDowell]

Sagebrush alox has worked pretty well.
But with that said I dipped 50 rounds last night with this Bullshop Nasa lube. I think it's going to be some really good stuff.....Stay tuned sports fans.....

[kokomokid]

Sure want to see some good test results. Looks like I can blow tube till I hyperventlate , #2 push a patch through after ever shot , #3 start over and try to add a lube cookie. Going to watch top shooters closer next match. And watch this thread closely.

[Don McDowell]

If 4 DEEP breaths won't keep the fouling soft, you probably need to be using a wiping rod and what ever type of patch, borepig etc that suits ya.

[SharpsShooter]

Don

FWIW, NASA is all I use anymore. Try what I call dry wiping. Even after 10 shot strings I can push a snug patch down the bore and while I would not store it that way, it is clean as a whistle. I have done this all summer and only use wet patches for final cleaning of the day.

I'm not telling ya how to run your test, I'm just curious to see if you have similar experience :D

SS

[Lead pot]

When I make my lube I test it this way.
I will shoot several rounds and use the blow tube. Then when the barrel gets fairly warm I use four blows and push a snug patch through and if the fouling is not like a grease the lube is not working the way it should.
I do this till the barrel gets hot to the touch. When the barrel is in this condition and pushing the patch through feels like it's hanging up and I'm pushing fouling out that falls out like sand the lube is failing.
To this day the lubes I have made will not pass this test when I use a B-Wax carrier no matter what the hocus pocus mix I use with the B- Wax.
The only lube I found that surpasses a B-Wax mix is a pure hard Tallow that has the consistency that is as hard as a candle that needs a little oil like peanut oil to soften it up a little and nothing else.
And I found a mineral wax that I been working with that hydrates with a few blows on the tube that is working better than any B-wax mix I have used.
At first this stuff formed a crust lube star but a gentle exhale would turn that crusty lube star to a grease that would wipes with your finger. The last batch I made a month ago it now stays soft.

If you want to test lube to see when it starts to fail swallow a swig of water blow two long breaths push a dry patch down the bore as the barrel heats up. The patch will tell you when the lube stops working.
Testing a lube and your wiping the bore clean between shots dont tell you a thing about the lube. You dont need lube if your using a PP bullet and wiping between shots. Use the tube for your test.
Kurt

[SharpsShooter]

That's my point Kurt. A 10 shot string with no blow tube, fired in three minuted heats up the barrel nicely :D My experience with NASA is that the dry patch following the shot string is still as you say greasy.

Four years ago when I first tested it. I ran a 10 shot string in under 4 minutes. No tube, no wiping, using a 457125. Here is what I got then with a damp patch.
pushed a damp patch through the bore and it was SHINY CLEAN. Not just clean, spotless. Two dry patches and it was a mirror of perfection.

Those results led to trying a dry patch and the results were nearly identical. My bench is not under roof, so all my shooting is done in direct sunlight as well. Certainly the humidity is higher here in the east, but the flash heat of long strings on hot days is a fair indicator I think.

SS

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Sharpshooter, such a test here in the dry climes of Wyoming, Mt, NM, or even the Sagebrush match at Alliance Neb, would fail. Such a test is no test if the Humidity is over 38%. Not trying to pick a fight or anger you. Folks that have never shot a match in Low Humidity, do not understand what some of us are trying to convey. Kurt makes an excellent point any lube with Bee's Wax as a carrier will fail in humidity below 28% it starts to go south at 30-32% and by 20% no lube works except the Stuff Dan T makes which has not Bee's Wax.

Kurt has made an exceptional Lube using a Mineral Wax as a base, I suspect it is the say stuff Dan uses as it has some very similar propertys. I will be testing it along with NASA, when I can get days off and the weather is dry I dont care about the temps as long as it is not too cold! Dry is what kills ya. Folks that have never shot out west just are not getting the whole Picture, no offense ment or intended. Just a fact. Farthest East I have shot is at Miller KS. It was pretty humid compared to where I live and never had Lube or fouling issues like we do out here.

KW
The Lunger

PS I will be testing Kurt's lube vrs NASA. I got money ridding on Kurt's lube just because I know it contains no Bee's wax. I also have a few rounds left with Dan T's Lube the White Lighting to use as a control. You made a remark that I would be eating Crow, on the NASA lube, It is easy to make such remarks hidding behind a Moniker. To me that was quite Insulting which we both know you fully intended.

I give my real name on my posts I do not hide behind a screen name or Moniker. If you can not give me the common decencey of using your real name while insulting me I will no longer Reply to any inflamitory Posts you make.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Bullshop]

Kenny
If what you say about the bee's wax being the limiting factor is so and I hope you are able to determine that absolutely then I will likely be working on an improved nasa lube using the mineral wax or possibly a microcrystalline wax.
I never meant to say nasa is perfect but the bee's wax aside the other ingredients seem to have beneficial qualities.
I am always looking for ways to improve my lube, and myself. I sure do appreciate you and Don doing this. Thank you!

[SharpsShooter]

Kenny,


Since you showed up here and started posting your bloviated opinion of yourself, I have had little respect for you or your opinions. One of your first posts was http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=11545 in which you purposely started a thread to impress the unwashed masses with all with your medals. I have little use for a braggart and that has left a foul odor on your postings that yet remains.


"I got money ridding on Kurt's lube" sounds suspiciously like predisposition to me.
"Not trying to pick a fight or anger you" Horse apples! You called me by name here and previously in a direct and challenging manner regarding the discussion of lubes.

I'm encouraged however to see that you are smart enough to recognize an insult. There may be hope for you yet. That remark of mine actually is incorrect and I do apologize as it is obvious crow will not be table fare for someone with an announced proclivity to another product. By your own admission the fix is in.

(aside to Kurt. I intend no offense to you or your product in any fashion)



"I give my real name on my posts I do not hide behind a screen name or Moniker. If you can not give me the common decencey of using your real name while insulting me I will no longer Reply to any inflamitory Posts you make."

Learn to spell for heavens sake! If you wish to use your given name that is certainly your right and privilege no matter how imprudent. Perhaps a brief lesson in identity theft is in order.

In two minutes I know ....

Kenny Wasserburger, (307) 687-0xxx
8xx Glacier St
Gillette, WY 82718-5751

Household : Karen X Wasserburger, Dennis X Wasserburger,

How's the CBM gas and oil thing going?BTW


Identity theft starts with the simplest things. Having had mine stolen once, I am content to conceal from prying eyes vital information. It has nothing to do whatsoever with "common decency" unless of course you wish to indicate the rest of the members here that use screen names are not commonly decent?

That you have skill fielding a BPCR, I will not argue. That you are a legend in your own mind wouldn't prompt a disagreement either. I'll readily admit that I did on one occasion approach you in a PM with a question regarding paper patch bullets. I mistakenly thought that if I put my opinion aside that perhaps my first impression was a bit harsh. You chose not to reply and my impression remains.

Now your choice to not reply to me is ....well your choice. So with all the above in mind, if you promise not to get emotionally attached , you can KMA.[smilie=l:

SS

[Don McDowell]

It will be interesting to see how this lube wring out over the next few months. I wouldn't call a ten shot test of anything definetive. As near as I can tell a good test of a lube will involve a seasons worth of shooting unless the lube in question fails miserably in the preliminary.... I don't think this NASA will fail any time soon.
Lots of lubes can go 10 rounds with out help, the acid test is can those lubes go the 10 rounds and not have the accuracy deteriorate?

[SharpsShooter]

10 shots into a ragged hole at 100, done three times running the same day convinced me Don, but you guys shake it out however works best for your climate and judge for yourself.

SS

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Sharps shooter,

#1 I have never received a question from you on Paper Patching. If I had or have missed it then I am sorry as I always try to answer anyones PMs to me.

#2 You, need to keep up, you mention my exwife of 7 years past, also you mention my brother Dennis, who will be Dead 9 years Nov 17th this year.

And you have Sunk to a all time low with that posting draging in my brother and exwife.

Mr. That is about as low as you can go.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Lead pot]

SS

There was no reason for you to make that post above.

I don't sell lube it's just for my use and I give a lot away. One way or other I don't care what the test results are. For my own purpose for Kenny to see if mine hold up in his conditions is for me so when I shoot out his way I know which lube I will use and I know I can trust Kenny to give a truthful evaluation with out bias and I will go on fron there.

Kurt

[SharpsShooter]

Sharps shooter,

#1 I have never received a question from you on Paper Patching. If I had or have missed it then I am sorry as I always try to answer anyones PMs to me.

#2 You, need to keep up, you mention my exwife of 7 years past, also you mention my brother Dennis, who will be Dead 9 years Nov 17th this year.

And you have Sunk to a all time low with that posting draging in my brother and exwife.

Mr. That is about as low as you can go.

Kenny Wasserburger

Kenny, I was nice enough to "X" out important initials and numbers to deny specific information being easily gained by someone with malicious intent. You called down the thunder when you specifically implied that using a Screen name was not commonly decent. I simply demonstrated how easily information is to acquire. If you want sympathy it is in the dictionary.:violin:




SS

There was no reason for you to make that post above.

I don't sell lube it's just for my use and I give a lot away. One way or other I don't care what the test results are. For my own purpose for Kenny to see if mine hold up in his conditions is for me so when I shoot out his way I know which lube I will use and I know I can trust Kenny to give a truthful evaluation with out bias and I will go on fron there.

Kurt

Kurt with all due respect, my post is between Wasserburger and myself, no offense intended.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bullshop,

I missed your last post with all of the Vitrol flying about here.

Yes Bee's wax will be the killing factor, any lube I have tested that has it, for a carrier, will fail below 28% RH most often below, that they are done, Black Magic actually did well down to 20% Thats the stuff Bill Bagwell's wife made. It was as good as DGL or SPG, for accuracy, and actually was better then a Lube I used to use with White Lithium Grease in it, both of them would hold up still at 20% RH but just barely. Black Magic actually gave a touch fast Velocity on the Chrono too. Kinda weird. I applaud your honestly and wanting to improve what by accounts is a good lube. And I am sure in most uses it is, we out west deal in extremes, temps and Humidity, seen it at 75% at 7 am in sighting in and by noon below 25% THIS WRECKS HAVOC WITH SCORES AND FOULING CONTROL. I have more then once burned down on the 1000 yard line and started putting them in the Dirt killing any chance of placing.

When I first Saw Kurt's lube my initial reaction was wow this is White Lighting, but it does not have the same smell and its a slight bit different, However I think Kurt's wax is the exact same. It is so close to White Lighting as not to be funny.

I am working this weekend so testing is most likely out, I hope to maybe next weekend, Going to try to cast up a few bullets though between call outs this weekend and use that hot rod 38-50 of mine too wring out your lube, Kurt's and use Whitelighting as a control.

Kenny W.
The Lunger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

SS,

Perhaps when ever you sent your PM asking for Help, I was remembering previous posts of yours, Hence the reason you never got any reply?

Using my Little Brother who passed away in 2001, in a terrible auto accident, and I had to go claim his body and bring him home to his grieving parents, and my Exwife to inflict pain. God help you, your one sorry human being.

No I am not wanting SY____ What I want is you to have the Guts to actually discuss this with me on the phone.

Kenny W

[SharpsShooter]

SS,

Perhaps when ever you sent your PM asking for Help, I was remembering previous posts of yours, Hence the reason you never got any reply?

Using my Little Brother who passed away in 2001, in a terrible auto accident, and I had to go claim his body and bring him home to his grieving parents, and my Exwife to inflict pain. God help you, your one sorry human being.

No I am not wanting SY____ What I want is you to have the Guts to actually discuss this with me on the phone.

Kenny W

Kenny,

All I did was make it obvious as to how easy it is to obtain information. In no way shape or form did I make any disparaging remarks regarding either individual, nor did I say it was to inflict pain. Your brothers demise is unfortunate, but don't play the victim. All I did was demonstrate how easy it is to fall prey to identity theft with just a search using a name and location to show you the folly of using your given name. Kenny, I have lots of guts. What I don't have is hearing,. Years of shooting and an accident when I was young destroyed 85% of that and as I age the remaining 15% is of little use. I haven't talked on the phone for years and short of an act of god never will again.

Send me a PM if you like .....or not......up to you. You can call me what you wish and spin it to suit you, but we both know that my statements were plain english.

SS

[Lead pot]

It's been several weeks and no rain here in Illinois and the humidity has been in the teens, it was 17% today very low for my part of the world and I been shooting for a couple weeks with the .44-90 BN and the .50-90, greasers and PP getting familiar with the barrel sights out to 250 yards for next weeks Buffalo hunt and the lube has been working pretty good using the tube. The stuff I gave you never failed but the new lube I mixed up has the edge.
Be waiting for your results.

Kurt

[waksupi]

No bickering, guys, we all want to learn something here.

[cajun shooter]

SS, I think that what we need is a deep breath and a thought about the word team. Every one here is very excited about this test. I have had my ID stolen 2 times and I'm a former cop with 15 years on the streets. It can happen to anyone even those that use a handle for forums on the wire. If some one that had the correct equipment was to be on line while you were they could have your address in short order. Most cities have a book that is called a cris cross. I can even secure your phone numbers with out your permission even if non listed. You are living in a bubble if you believe other wise. Baskin Robbins carried all the different flavors because of the fact that we all are not alike nor do we want the same things. I live and shoot in Louisiana where we have a cup of humidity with every breath. So I will always use my lube to shoot. I would like to know what works in the West so that it may be stored in that file sitting on my shoulders. Later
David Shultz
17195 David Dr.
Livingston,La. 70754
H-225-686-1502

[Bullshop]

As I type I have a new batch of lube brewing, sans bee's wax. I spent the day on line searching for mineral waxes and oil soluble mineral oils. I had already been looking into other carriers besides bee's wax last spring when we shut down so I did already have something to try. The future of BP lube looks bright. With the input from people at the level of our testers here we should be taking some giant steps forward for the average shooter that buys his lube.
At some point I hope to find a tester down under so that this does not have to take a winter break.
When the 2011 BPCR season arrives I hope to have available undisputedly the best money can buy. I am having fun too!

[Don McDowell]

Don't know if there's any Aussies or Kiwi's here, but there is on bpcr.net

[Bullshop]

I think we have a few Aussies and Kiwi's here that may help when that time comes.
The lube I made up today looks very good, very smooth and slick.
I ran a test I had in mind for some time but had put off during our shut down.
It started with a batch of bullplate and I blended with it an equal part of a mineral oil.
Those blended nicely so then I added an equal part of water. The mineral oil absorbed the water and all stayed together without separating.
Now I dont plan on adding water to my lube but if your with me on this I think you know where its going. Yup the water is added by the shooter with a blow tube and should mix just as readily if the RH is low enough to call for tubing.
If we can get a lube that mixes with the powder fouling and can absorb whatever moisture is available either from the atmosphere or from blow tubing we should have exactly what is needed.

[SharpsShooter]

Cajun

As a electrical and computer automation engineer since 1983, I am well aware of what it takes to get access to information. Encryption has gotten better but so have the tools to work around it or defeat it. My point was quite simple actually. Don't make it easy. Catching the horse is a whole is a whole lot harder than fixing the fence. I don't feel too much of a "team spirit" when it is implied that folks who use a screen name (like you, me and many others here) are not decent enough to address another. That you wish to display your name and address is your business and while I wouldn't encourage it at the same time, I won't condemn it either. Not my business you see.

The tests will no doubt yield some interesting results. Lets just see where it goes.


SS

[cajun shooter]

My post to you was meant to say that there could be some fixed notions about people and products and that will do nothing but cause harm. That harm will not affect those who are in the exchange but the entire forum both present and future. When I first came to this forum it was a breath of fresh air to read all of the post. Other forums I had visited were calling each other names and were very confrontational people. They did this under the guise of a handle and that is the point that KW was making. I posted my info to a BAD A-- on this forum and asked him to do the same; he refused which told me of his make up. I posted it to you not as a challenge but to just make a point that it does not matter what others do. To each his own. I am sure that all parties if FTF would be shaking hands and making plans on how this thing works out. KW gave me a ton of help and I have nothing but respect for him and his close friend Jim Terry. KW is like me in that he will speak his mind and let you know where he stands. Sometimes that is good and some times not so good as I have done punishment details both in the military and while a cop because I stood up. That is why I know that this test will be honest as KW will tell you the truth. You know the old saying about some times the truth hurts. I have used and have told others about Dan's lubes. In fact one mold maker now sends out Bullplate with each new mold after I sent him some to try. I have about 3 lbs of NASA on hand also. I see nothing but good coming from this test as it may help several hundred and not just two. I had to add BW to all my NASA for use in Louisiana as it was too soft and sticky for our climate. I still think that it is good for certain conditions. Steve Garbe will tell you that SPG is not the correct lube for all conditions and that is good and I have respect for him for saying that.Later

[kokomokid]

What is BW ? Maybe a dumb question.

[Doc Highwall]

BW =Bees Wax

[Doc Highwall]

What I want to get out of this test is what lube is the best for the hot and low humidity conditions like Kenny describes but also what might work in cold conditions with low humidity say 40 deg or less for both target and hunting. I think that this will hopefully lead to a better understanding of the importance of lubes and also the techniques of using a blow tube along with wiping. Who knows maybe a new and better lube will be the results of this test.

[Bullshop]

Doc Highwall

"Who knows maybe a new and better lube will be the results of this test."

That is my hope, and an open channel of information that it may continue to improve.
I was also thinking about the very thing you mentioned, cold and dry which we have here.
My idea is to have two slightly different lubes, nasa summer and nasa winter.
Not much of a problem here with foul out from lube melting but I know it is a problem for some of you. When I shot the Quigley it was 106 degrees on the fireing line, something I was not used to.

[SharpsShooter]

Cajun,

I didn't perceive your post as a challenge at all. :D You made your point as I have made mine. There is no quarrel in that regard. I don't know how you guys shoot in that miserable humidity.

I've made it clear to Bullshop that I in no way wished to see his efforts diminished by controversy that has little to do with the topic at hand. I stand by that.


......that's all I say about it..........



SS

[Lead pot]

Bullshop.

Tell you what :popcorn:

if I ever find the secret of a lube that I can use to shoot more than 50 rounds out of my 50 or the rest of my powder rifles with out blow tubing and not get fouled out from lead I will tell you and if you do, I will buy the lube from you so I can quit making it :bigsmyl2:
Right now I can load and shoot with out the tube and the rounds will drop right in the chamber but lead starts to build up after 20 or so rounds in the .50.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Initial test firing of the Nasa lube.
70 grs goex cartridge , cci large rifle primer. rp cases. rcbs 82084 bullet cast from wheelweight sized .459 and dip lubed with Bullshops Nasa lube.
65 Degrees 35% humidity, 20 mph winds, partly cloudy

Fired this from the wifes Winchester 45-70 bpcr 21 rounds no tubing or wiping , no loss of accuracy at 270 yds.
Clean up was good and no lead found.
So far , looking really good.:bigsmyl2:

[SharpsShooter]

rcbs 82084 bullet cast from wheelweight sized .459 and dip lubed

That's a GG boolit correct? What's the advantage of dip lubing?

SS

[Doc Highwall]

No it is a plain base bullet.

[SharpsShooter]

No it is a plain base bullet.

Right Doc GG = Grease groove :D With it being a Grease groove boolit, why dip?

SS

[Don McDowell]

The only advantage dip lubing had this time was my lubrisizer is full of Sagebrush, and I didn't feel like empting it out. So I dipped lubed and then ran them thru the lee .459 size die.

[Bullshop]

Lead pot
Have you tried NASA? If anything it excels at preventing leading. If you would prefer to stay with your own mix maybe you could try adding some of our Bullplate mix. It is the lube that prevents the leading in a barrel as well as on a mold.

Don
I am smiling bigger than that fella at the end of your post.
35% RH, not an extreme test but a good test.
Maybe if you dont mind would you see if you might get those down under fellows from the other board interested in doing some testing?
Also would you or Kenny like a sample of the sansbwx lube. I plan to try it too to get the cold end of the test covered. We are getting down around zero now at night.

[SharpsShooter]

The only advantage dip lubing had this time was my lubrisizer is full of Sagebrush, and I didn't feel like empting it out. So I dipped lubed and then ran them thru the lee .459 size die.

Gotcha. Changing out lube is a nasty chore and I don't blame ya a bit. It actually sounds better to me since you size with a push through and don't bend these long BPCR bullets.

SS

[Lead pot]

JC, no I havent. This is the first I have heard about this lube.

Kurt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

This sounds good, And you did fire other lubed cartridges along side to give you a control right? If not that somewhat ruins any validity of the test. Please say you did. A true test of anything with out a control along side cancels out much validity or claims made in such tests.

And as for accuracy, at 270 what are we talking on paper or steel? and what size?

Right now, Myself, I just finished casting and priming and loading a couple dozen 38-50 cases,

I sized my 38 bullets in my Saco sizer but backed off the lube pump so no lube put on the bullets, like you, I do not wish to empty out my sizer full of White lighting.

Running down to Wally world to pick up a couple small pots to do dip lubing also for the same reasons, one for Kurt's Lube and one for Bullshop's lube.

In all fairness since we wont be getting the heat and the low humidity, I will use a 3 blow tube for first test and fire 7 rounds at 200 yard of each. Accuracy and how well the rounds chamber will be some of the criteria. At the end of the string 3 deep breaths again and will push a tight patch up the barrel to see how far it goes before it hangs up or if at all and then visual inspection of the barrel to show how far out the barrel shines from chamber. Here is the kicker, I am sure one of the 3 lubes will do better at absorbing the Moisture both ambient and from my breath. Which will give one a lot better idea of how they will perform at lower humidities.

My control rounds will be of course lubed with Whitelighting. This is a proven load and it will be used for all the other lube tests.

Load is:

38-50 Rem Hepburn

Remington 30-40 krag cases Fire formed and annealed the previous firing.

Primer: Fed 150 Match Pistol primers w/primer wad of Filter paper between primer and case.

Powder: Swiss 1 1/5 54 grains load is compressed approx .230

Bullet Lyman Postell 38 cal sized to .377

As mentioned above this load is MOA or better too the Pig line and runs on avg 90% or better on Pigs and is very accurate, placed in 3/4 matches in Raton and Placed at Big Whiskey Labor Day weekend Match. It shoots MOA or a touch less at 200 yards day in day out.

Off to Wally World

KW
The Lunger


PS Bullshop yeah I want the lube with no BW for sure.

[Don McDowell]

Kenny for today no I did not fire the sagebrush lubed bullets along side. I already knew they'ld go 5-6 until you couldn't chamber with out tubing or wiping, or prying.
As for the target it's steel I've posted pictures of it before but here's another look at it, altho we didn't picture it or paint it today...The bullseye is 6 inches. I never have measured the entire thing, but it's not real big.
Just an initial test to see what sort of things I might expect from this lube.
There'll be warm/hot days yet with low humidity and I will keep testing this NASA, all along as Carol and I have decided that every Sunday we will do our level best to shoot a few rounds.
I am sort of holding back on full blown tests until the new Saeco blocks get here. Then it'll be all new territory as I already know what the bullets I have will do with Sagebrush and SPG.http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/Ranch13/2010-01-12_130902_Kal_pp.jpg

[Doc Highwall]

SharpsShooter, my bad I have cataracts and I thought I saw GC and now when I went and looked at it again it is indeed GG my fault. I cannot wait till they ripen up enough to have the surgery.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Judging by the bull, then looks to be about 18 inches wide and 10 or so inches tall in the middle part not counting the wings for elevation.

As I said, it's shame you did not shoot some along side this lube of your Sagebrush Lube as A control. I have never had much luck with it myself, it burns down at about the same time DGL or SPG in my old tests. Your statement about it mirrors my findings, I find it a less than my best choice for BP Lube in my rifles.

My old Lithium Greese based Lube made by Dick Hanson failed me one to many times at 1000, back in 2005 I think it was, or 04 maybe?? Anyways I went to White Lighting and in 2006 well, the rest is history.
[smilie=w:[smilie=w:
I do remember that Dick also burned down real bad at 1000 that day and was pretty disgusted with his 50-90 and Lube.

It is looking to be back in the 60s come next weekend hope it is dry.:brokenima

Testing something with validity, when it comes to something as important as finding a new or better lube is what we all should be striving for here. Tests got to be provable and repeatable in my opinion or we are just stating opinions not facts. In a past life I spent 8 years as the Sr Admin Assistant to Amax Coal's Chemist. My Numbers had to be prefect and repeatable, and I learned a lot about using controls to check and validate ones Data.

I worked with Atomic Absorbtion Equipment and was the main operator of the AA this was used to test stuff at the atomic level with light Spectrums.

As you mentioned over on the Shiloh forum your happy with 2 MOA loads, and that works great for all the gong shoots I have ever attended.

My own standards are 1 to 1.25 MOA max. If not I keep tweaking.

Trust me, if I find a better lube than White Lighting I will be using it, Dan's a Great friend and Jimbo sells the stuff and is my best friend, BTW I pay full price just like veryone else.

Just looking at Bullshops lube tonight and some prelim Tests, I think it is much better then Sagebursh lube, (your Intial test most likely confirms this). Taking it between thumb and trigger finger and pressing and heating with bodys heat Gives me some indications that I really like.

Got stuff for double boiler and ready to plan lube some tonight.

Kurt's Lube I already can tell its going to be real interesting also.

With my Time to test being really limited I have to construct valid tests or I am wasting what little Time I have to shoot.

Rifle will have my MVA Scope mounting on it and also will be shooting from my BR-2 Rock Rest with rear bags and Sagebrush rubber pad to keep that Plastic butt plate from sliping.

Test Rifle is my Shiloh 38-55 rechambered by Steve Garbe and crew over at Wyoming Armory in Cody with Steve's Reamer to 38-50.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

When the time comes to get down and dirty serious about this lube test we'll put the F class's up at 500 and see what happens. Today was just a preliminary test to see what would happen. The neat thing was I know this bullet cast from wheelweights will lead after 10 rounds with Sagebrush or SPG. There was NO (as in none, nadda, nyet) leading today after 21.

Yup 2moa OR LESS is what I look for in a good load. And I know that when we get down and dirty with this load test this NASA lube is going to have to show me some 5 bullets thru the same hole at 200 and 300 and clover leafs at 500 to keep its good standing, because spg and sagebrush will do it.
I know my eyesight isn't my 40 year ago eyesight. So I don't expect the moa or less ,shooting the irons,I would shooting a scope.
I haven't seen enough really good things from scopes to make me think that its' worth the 950 extra to have one put on. When a scope shooter starts winning the overall at some of these gong shoots and doing it regular I may change my mind. Until then 60% hits don't rev my jets up so much.. My new Shiloh on order is spec'd to have the holes drilled and plugged, just in case.
But in the end I know full well that my loads are fully capable of going anywhere anytime and winning, but I also realize I don't have the stead of nerve to be able to do those loads justice anymore, but on occasion I do run a target now and then..

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Again,

The no Leading thing, mmmmm, That in it's self is Interesting, Especially when you know that the load leads in X amount of rounds. Course all of em will lead with out blow tubing or wiping at one point or another, EXCEPT??? MAYBE Bullshops Lube.

Intrigued is the word. Hope its nice next weekend.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Yup the no leading part really really got my attention.
Definetly impressed to this point, and looking forward to that new mould getting here so the testing can get down and dirty. I've got a hunch I know the load Carol will be shooting this upcoming season, and if all comes together as I'm hoping there's gonna be a major warp in the continum of the senior ladies prize awards..... hehehe.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

Scope thing, I gota disagree there, I won the Scope class at Spring Alliance Match, took second with scope in the fall match. Both good scores. When I won in 2006 I was in the Top Ten at Raton plus scope champ 9th overall. When I can beat Bill Clenden by 3 hits in scope I know I had a pretty good day.

End of the first day was ahead of him, Linda, and Butch. I know can't shoot sitting worth a hoot so they caught me that second day ( Butch and Linda). Lay down targets though well thats another story.

Also my 22 took 3rd both Alliance matches, Lost only too 2 bolt guns in the spring match, a Mod 52 winchester Match Rifle and Bruce Stevens was the shooter other guy I do not recall but he was using a 1800 Serries Anchutz. Both with lot more optics then mine and we were far above the other scores. Fall match Steve Miles and the other guy runing full house Race Rugger 10/22 Silhouette rifles with major optics beat me.

Big Whiskey, I won that match in the 22's with a 28/40 score only 1 chicken of the 30 laydown targets I hit 27/30 cleaned pigs and Turkeys. I was the only scope shooter and beat Kirk Bryan #2 shooter by 4 hits. Thats a 10 percent advantage We tied for the Pig Pot at 10 each and tied for the Ram Pot at 7 each. I got the turkey pot all to myself with the 10/10 adn won enough money to pay all my entry fees for the weekend.

KW
The Lunger

[Bullshop]

I got to shoot a few rounds after church today too.
The results with the micro wax lube were disappointing. The lube star at the muzzle was dry and my 5Th round would not chamber. I went back to the original nasa with bee's wax and fired 10 rounds with no problems chambering. The lube star was still soft too. I was shooting a 45/70 with the Lyman postell, 71gn weight of way old GOI ffg heavily compressed and a Fed 215. I was deliberately trying to make a dry load. RH was fairly high at 69.
So it seems the micro wax is out and I need to get some non crystalline wax.
Yesterday I contacted some companies for ozokerite wax and cericen wax, both non crystalline mineral wax's. I have not yet heard back from them. If someone watching has a source for them please let me know.
Is anyone else as excited about this as I am?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Yeah,

If you end up with an ever better lube, after all of this well, Gota say it was worth it right?

I just am bout to sign off and get to bed its 9pm here 5 am comes all to early. I did dip lube, via a old method taught to me by Dan T, 13 of my bullets cast with BullShop Lube For what it is worth it, it is a good dipping lube that much I know it fills the grooves quickly and in 3 dips of the bullet plenty of lube.

Will be dipping a dozen or so bullets tommrow night with Kurt's lube more to follow.

KW
The lunger

[Lead pot]

JC.

You might try here.
http://www.frankbross.com/ozok.htm

[Don McDowell]

Kenny that 22 stuff is one of the things makes me pretty sure that right now a scope doesn't wind me up much. You only beat be by two in August, and 2 in May, and at theMay one. if I hadn't of got crossed up on windage adjustment and took a zero on the turkey.......
Anyway sounds good that dip lubing you did went well, I know I started getting a good impression when I dipped those 50 rounds. Double boilered it and it sure does coat fast and fill the lube grooves very well on that RCBS bullet, on a shallower grooved bullet like the postell I imagine it really fills fast. And when I pushed those dipped bullets thru the lee size die none of the lube grooves had holes open up in them as I've had happen with SPG.

[Lead pot]

Bullshop.

JC I think you and I might have crossed trails last year just outside of Central AK on Dead Wood Creek at my Gold camp.
I just was at your web site but the pictures are to small for me to make you out.

Kurt

[SharpsShooter]

SharpsShooter, my bad I have cataracts and I thought I saw GC and now when I went and looked at it again it is indeed GG my fault. I cannot wait till they ripen up enough to have the surgery.


Ain't no biggie Doc. I figured it was just a mis-read. Only reason I made mention was to determine if Don had used a dip lube for an accuracy inducing reason.



The neat thing was I know this bullet cast from wheelweights will lead after 10 rounds with Sagebrush or SPG. There was NO (as in none, nadda, nyet) leading today after 21.



Don that mirrors my experience exactly. When using SPG and wheelweight alloy, I always found flakes of lead on the patches. With NASA it just went away...poof gone.

SS

[Bullshop]

Kenny
Yeah, thats my idea too. In the end we all gain.
Leadpot
Thanks for that link! I am on it and waiting for thier reply.
No Sir that was not me up by Central last year. My room mate from the old log camp days stopped by last year on his way up there. He had gotten a parcel through the state land office in FB. I think he has since let that one go and has one here by me and another by Tok. He had gotten two 5 acre parcels near me and one was adjacent to mine. He was kind enough to sell me the one adjacent to my property this spring and that may well be how he financed the new purchases. The 5 acre I got from him will now become an extension to my shooting range.
Don
A friendly fella from down under got hold of me today and it looks like the testing will continue through our winter. Now if only I can get a supplier for that mineral wax, DRATS!
I also got a contact from a fellow in Elko NV that told me he also would like to help and that they get RH numbers in the single digits in the winter.

[Lead pot]

Well let me know how your progress goes for getting some. If you have a problem I could stare a pound and send it up. If you work with this wax stick with the mineral oils or vegetable oil.

I had a chance last year to take over a 80 acer claim about 85 NE of FB from the guy I bought my dredge from several years ago but I turned it down. I think last year was my last trip up, getting to old moving the gig boulders in the 40 degree water and the #2 is getting to tough for my bad back.

Good luck with your projects maybe if I change my mind next spring I might stop by. I usually stop and spend the night in the park at Delta Junction on my way up.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Sounds good will have an envelope headed your way in a day or two. Think you'll find it useful.
ps if you have a veterinarian in town might check with them for some of the mineral oil etc...

[Bullshop]

Leadpot
I just got a reply back from the place you sent me to. Seem like nice folks and helpful in making suggestions to fill my needs for lube making. No procrastinating on my part, going full bore!
You are indeed welcome to stay with us anytime your in the area, IF YOU CAN STAND US!
Don
OK will be looking for that, Thanks!

[Bullshop]

OH OH just got word, Tuktuk!!!! The heard is passing through, I GOTTA GO!!!
I will likely be gone for a couple days but Lord willing will be back to this asap.
27 days spent in moose camp and we didn't get one so we really have to get after these caribou.
This is important to us, wish me good fortune.
BIC/Daniel

[SharpsShooter]

OH OH just got word, Tuktuk!!!! The heard is passing through, I GOTTA GO!!!
I will likely be gone for a couple days but Lord willing will be back to this asap.
27 days spent in moose camp and we didn't get one so we really have to get after these caribou.
This is important to us, wish me good fortune.
BIC/Daniel

Go get em Bullshop! Take pictures!


SS

[Don McDowell]

Hold true and squeeeeeze the trigger.

[Lead pot]

I find I get along with the locals very good, they share my believes and feelings. Made some real good friends up there.

Wish I was up there and getting in of that hunt.

Good luck.

Kurt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Looks like maybe good weather Friday afternoon, after my infusion might make it to the range to have a go with these rounds.

Depending on how I feel of course. And see what the blood work says. Been a depressing week.

Was very cold windy here today, 39 degs when I got home, winds at 40 mph Windchill at 27 Humidity 67% wow.

No wonder it feels cold. They say the eastern folks suffer with the High Humidity in winter, I can see why.

KW
The Lunger

[cajun shooter]

It was 77 this morning with 100% humidity. Since my right side diaphragm became paralyzed and will not let my right lung work I have had hell here KW. The higher the humidity the harder it is for me to breathe. I even have problems with a hot shower and have to put my head out to catch my breath.It is also scary as you think each one could be your last. I hope all of your blood work is good news and that you have no problems KW. Take Care David AKA Fairshake

[Kenny Wasserburger]

David,

Its been a weird year here this year, we killed a Rattlesnake Friday at 5 pm in the road, today its snowing some ha.

Nothing like Wyoming.

KW
The Lunger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Here are the results from Jim Kidwells match in GA A regional Silhouette Match.

Match Winner was using Whitelighting, DGL, SPG and Eagle Lube made by Mike Rix are listed.

Not sure of the Conditions there at the match.

I was really interested that everyone was using LDPE For wads. After a season of using them in my LR loads I have went back to LDPE for this coming years. Except in the 38-50 they shoot to good to quit using in it.

Lube results are in no way to disparage Bullshops Lube. Just to share what some Well Known National Ranked shooters are using, I found it interesting. The other notable 45-70 still is the cartridge to beat at most matches.




SCOPE

Mike Patterson
Action Type: Win Hi-Wall Lube: White Lightning
Caliber: 45-70 Brass Mfg.: Win
Bullet Weight: 550 Gr Primer Win
Bullet Mould: Home Made Scope MVA
Wad: LDPE Power 6X
Powder Brand: Swiss Mounts DZ Arms

Richard Woods
Action Type: Bal Hi-Wall Lube: Eagle
Caliber: 45-70 Brass Mfg.: Win
Bullet Weight: 540 Gr Primer Rem
Bullet Mould: M. Lewis Scope MVA
Wad: LDPE Power 6X
Powder Brand: Swiss Mounts MVA

Steve Hubbard
Action Type: CPA 44 1/2 Lube: SPG
Caliber: 40-65 Brass Mfg.: Starline
Bullet Weight: 410 Gr Primer CCI
Bullet Mould: P. Jones Scope MVA
Wad: LDPE Power 6X
Powder Brand: Swiss Mounts MVA

IRON

Mike Patterson
Action Type: Win Hi-Wall Lube: White Lightning
Caliber: 45-70 Brass Mfg.: Win
Bullet Weight: 550 Gr Primer Win
Bullet Mould: Home Made Front Sight: Baldwin
Wad: LDPE Front Sight Insert: Aperture
Powder Brand: Swiss Rear Sight Baldwin

Steve Christiansen
Action Type: Browning 1885 Lube: Home Made
Caliber: 40-65 Brass Mfg.: Win
Bullet Weight: 410 Gr Primer CCI
Bullet Mould: S. Brooks Front Sight: Browning
Wad: LDPE Front Sight Insert: Aperture
Powder Brand: Swiss Rear Sight Browning

Doug Gazaway
Action Type: Shiloh Sharps Lube: DGL
Caliber: 45-70 Brass Mfg.: Rem
Bullet Weight: 520 Gr Primer Rem
Bullet Mould: S. Brooks Front Sight: Kelley
Wad: LDPE Front Sight Insert: Aperture
Powder Brand: Swiss Rear Sight Browning


KW
The Lunger

[Bullshop]

Just got back. Got one nice bull. If I had had a scoped rifle I could have maybe got 2.
It was getting dark and the one I shot was unlucky enough to stop on a frozen pond so I could see him through the sights.
Got to try two new boolits on game. Our 370gn 375 from a 375 Whelen literally blew the horns off this bull with a through and through shoulder shot. I never seen anything like it. The shock of that hard cast soft nose made him shudder and snapped both antlers off. I think he was about ready to shed but anyway it was way cool.
The other was the little Ranch Dog 22 from a hornet that met a coyote at about 30 yards. I think it was about 10gn of H4227 prolly doing just over 2000 fps. Both shoulders broken and DRT. When I skinned him out the exit was about thumb size through the shoulder but only about 30 cal through the hide. A real good hide that might pay the gas for the trip.
I spent two nights out in the cold, to about 0 degrees and it was tough sticking it out till some caribou came through. Good to know I can still hack it though. Tonight I sleep by the stove!
I should have some samples of mineral wax en -rout so its a work in progress.

[Lead pot]

Any hunt is a good Hunt even if you dont draw blood.
I know I spent many nights up the Michigan UP during very cold nights one 35 degrees below during the first black powder season in January sleeping in a tent were two sleeping bags just were not enough and snow at times that pushed in the tent sidewalls by morning and other years heavy ice storm pulling trees over and many good mile years also.
It did not matter if you drew blood or not just being there with friends was what it was all about.
Congratulations on that buck.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Glad you made meat.
Got the new Saeco mould today, cast up and lubed a handfull , will see how the cow moving and weaning go , but hope to get some shooting done Sunday.

[Bullshop]

I just heard from the fella at that place Kurt sent me to for wax. They only ship UPS and they are a killer for us. They want $150.00 shipping for 50lb of wax. That's $200.00 worth of wax and $150.00 to ship it. The same wax would go in two FRB from USPS for $20.00, OUCH! That's gonna take a bite outa profit!
Maybe not too bad though. I have been getting bee's wax from Randyrat at about $4.00 per lb. shipped and have a good stock pile. Looks like with the high shipping the mineral wax comes to about $7.25 shipped. I would have to raise the per lb. price of lube about $2.00. Not too bad I guess. Still I hate having to pay when I know it can be so much more reasonable.

[Don McDowell]

Maybe Kurt or someone here can get it, then send it up USPS to you?

[Don McDowell]

Did you check with the local vet to see if they can get some?

[Bullshop]

No Don I did not check the vet. We only have one here and he has the nicest house in town so it scart me off. I have an idea they dont have time for small time business.
I was thinking that about the wax shipping but dont feel right asking anyone.
All the family I have lives with me so no help that way. If I have any living relatives they dont want to know me.
I hope the cow farming goes well because I am anxious for you to get to shootin.
That wax fella was kind enough to send me some free samples of two types of wax, at least he said he would. I will be melting a trail to the mail box for the next few days looking for it.

[Don McDowell]

I mailed that Ned Roberts book to you today, so there's another reason to trudge down to the mailbox....

[cajun shooter]

Dan, I don't know why the suggestion that Don made would not mean a much better deal for you and all your customers. I live in Louisiana and would not be your best choice. If you could contact one of your customers in the western states they could accept delivery and then pass it on. I went to send a rifle to Alaska about 10 days ago and through my FFL it was going to be $88 with Fed-Ex. I went to my local PO and it was $94!! Priority. I asked for ground charges and with insurance of $1800 it was $53. They said it would take 10 or more days and it was there in 4. The same time as the $94 charge was going to take. Saved $40 with same delivery.

[SharpsShooter]

Way to go Dan! Glad to hear it worked out well for you. Prayers do get answered don't they?


SS

[Kenny Wasserburger]

lets hope they do.

KW
The lunger

Congrats on the Bull. Meat made is always a good thing.

[Bullshop]

Yes Sir FRESH MEAT is a real good thing. We were getting down to having only canned meat from last years moose left.
Each year just before hunting season opens my wife goes through the freezer and cans whats left over from the previous season. She did so this year but I didn't keep up my end to replace it with fresh, until now. She was starting to give me "THE LOOK" !!!
I should be safe for awhile now.

[Lead pot]

Bull Shop.

I put a couple pounds of pure wax melted down so I could get more in the flat rate box and it will go in the Mail in the morning for you to try before investing a bunch of $$$$ for something you might not like.

Kurt

[Bullshop]

Thanks Kurt, sure do appreciate it!
If it works out could you tell me which formulation it is. They had several to choose from all having different melting points and absorption rates.

[Lead pot]

It's all in the box.

[Bullshop]

SS
Yes Sir prayers do get answered. Today a friend called to ask where the caribou were crossing. He went there and got a nice bull. He is a single guy and didn't want another after getting one last week so he brought it out for us. On his way over he came upon a road killed moose calf, called troopers on it and they said take it.
Prayers answered! Praise to God! You can stop praying now, we are good to go for winter.
Say I just wanted to mention about that mineral oil, bullplate, and water cocktail I mixed up a few days ago. It never separated. It mixed readily and stayed mixed and now a few days later it looks like a baby blue cake batter. Very very interesting.

[Don McDowell]

Ok pulled a quick but short shooting string this afternoon. Temp hit 75 and the humidity was 18. Load was the Saeco 480gr bullet from 20-1 sized .459 and lubed thru the lyman 45 lubrisizer, seated to the driving band. 70 grs goex 2f express, remington nickle brass, cci lp, and sagebrush .030 fiber wad.
Due to the lateness of the day things were in a hurry up mode, but did wait 2 minutes between shots. But was shooting into some pretty strong sun. No blowing no wiping.
15 rounds fired 15 chambered just as easy as #1. Shots 9 and 13 dropped just low off the 270 yd gong. Shot 1 was a sighter on the steel but low and right. There were 2 distinct groups which I'm going to say were shots 2-7 in about a 2 inch splash at 3 oclock of the white, and another group of 5 rounds about the same 2ish inch size at 7 just between the white and the bottom of the gong.
Clean up was an interesting excercise as well . The first patch down the tube was pushed dry on a Paul Gerache delron rod. The fouling was a touch harder at the last 3 inches of the bore, and that took longer to get swabbed out than the rest of the barrel.But at no time was the fouling harder than more stubborn than could be dealt with.
I'm pretty pleased the way this stuff was working. Had this been a 10 round gong string in a match it would of been a bragging score for sure.
The question of the size of the gong came up the other day so I did take a tape measure with me. The left to right width is 28 inches, up and down on the wide wing parts is 20 inches and the area where the bullseye sits is 9 inches wide by 15 high.(see page 6 post 108 for a picture)
All in all first time out with this bullet ever for me and to get this sort of show of accuracy and I'm really liking the things I'm seeing from this lube.

[Bullshop]

Excellent! 18% humidity, is that not well below what was stated as the breaking point at which bee's wax lubes would fail? Do you think that gives merritt to what I suggested yesterday in PM about the problem being with organic lubes combined with bee's wax?
How about leading, any?
I know that at some point this lube will fail too but it does seem to be an improvement over other mixes using bee's wax and organic lubes.

[Don McDowell]

Yes at that low of a level fouling control usually becomes an issue, it would be interesting to see what the results would be if another 10 degrees in temperature was added.
I think you may be onto something about the organic additives.
There were some lead flakes, but... that could of been something left over from the other day when I was shooting some 350 gr bullets with smokeless. Those bullets do tend to give a little leading problem, and I didn't do a deep clean on the rifle before this session started.
What I saw today was that with this load combination, a person could of been in a 10 round per target gong match and stayed right in the thick of things without a tube or wiping. Or even a sillouette match. Wiping a couple of patches between relays is about all that would of been required.
The group shift could of been from a 5-10 mph wind that come from the right at about 3-4 oclock.after shot 7. Also the "bench" used from the deck here is she who must be obeyed's ironing board, not the stabilest thing in the world but beats the snot out of offhand....
Really wanting to get down on the sticks and see what the f class at 500 and the kerosene barrel at 800 tell me..

[Kenny Wasserburger]

This report, is encouraging to say the least, The real killer will be heat, a hot day will make a world of difference. But that is Dry, 18%. Today I just got home from work 5 pm its 58 here and RH is 14%, wish I had some rounds loaded up but I don't. It is dry though, wish I had some rounds to run quick to the range with. I Might try to cast up a few tonight and load in case it is the same tomorrow. Tough to do when your working in the patch and have a long drive too and from work. NO guns allowed in the company truck either>!!!

Don again I hope you shot some other lube loads along side for a control, or a standard, or your test is Invalid, promising but not much creditability, I know your Honest but to make any claims with out a Valid Control to compare with, makes it tough for any sort of Creditability for Bull shop to, as it were, go to the Bank with, if you get my meaning.

My only test so far was shooting White lighting, Bull shop and Kurt's lube, at 29% humidity last weekend, at 55 Deg air temp. Any test has to have at least 2 things to compare or your justing wasting your time. I will post pictures of the Groups, White lighting of course shot the smallest with Bull shop the next and then Kurt's lube however, I was not trying to get the lube to fail or See what was the most accurate. I was establishing a Base line for the next round of tests mainly.

The Fact that White lighting shot the best group means nothing as the load was worked up with that for the lube on the bullet to begin with, so that much I expected. Just wanted to make that clear.

Fouling control was the same for all 3 loads, 6 deep breaths, the same as I would of used in a Silhouette match and I tried to fire in a rather quick rate, similar to how one would in a Match format.

After blowing I looked down the barrel, and could see that the lube for all loads was hydrating very well.

My initial sighting in was most interesting and is well worth sharing. I was off the target low with my scope zero. Then it hit me that the air temp was a full 25 degs cooler then when I last shot the rifle at this range.

The Old dead guys used to have a rule of thumb, that applies fully to todays shooter. For every 4 degs of Temp change, you can, as a rule of thumb use one MOA of Elevation change for each 4 deg temp change.

25 degs cooler temps I had to Come up 6 and 1/3 MOA. 25/4= 6.25 MOA Pretty darn Close!

I know this much while sighting in I went down to 3 breaths with a tight Jag and found the last 3 inches of the barrel a bit tougher to push though with a patch. So I went to 6 for my test. As I said was not trying to get the lubes (any of them) to fail just wanted to see something of a base line. With out any sort of base line compassions, My testing will be just my opinion and will be quite useless to Bull shop when it comes to selling his lube.

A bit of back ground or expiation is in order here I suppose.

I spent about 10 years as an inorganic Chemist for 2 Major Coals mines here in the Powder river. AMAX Coal for 8 years and Kerr McGee for 2 years. Testing of Coal Quality is a major deal as meeting EPA emissions for Power Plants is A multi-million dollar Issue, Fines for Too much SO2 Emissions can result in fines of Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars a Day.

My results had to be with out question, and samples were sent of each train I tested, too several control labs for analysis comparisons. Hence I learned much about standards and controls for testing to make sure my test results were valid. With out that, my company was liable for Millions in Lawsuits if we shipped bad coal with out warning our Customers.

Just something I wanted to let folks know as I am not trying to pick on Don.

The upshot of this is:::::: I agreed to do fair and impartial testing that would help Bullshop find out one way or the other about his lube. If we don't use Controls and some sort of Base Lines with our testing for him we are doing him a grave disservice. Since I made that commitment I am going to give it a real testing otherwise, I am just kidding myself, everyone else, and Bull shop.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Kenny , no there were no other shots than the 15 discribed here. There was not time to do any shooting in the same conditions, and as late in the afternoon as the air did dry and warm , I was just happy to be able to give this bullet and this lube the initial first time ever for me short test. We went from low to mid 50's with 35 % + humidity from about 9 this morning until just before 2 when the temps started up and the humidity went down. Less than30 minutes after I got the gun cleaned, and checked and repainted the target, the temps had dropped back into the lower 60's and humidity had risen again. So to have shot the rounds lubed with the other lubes in the higher humidity and lower temps would not have done much for even steven comparison...
To make the full comparison test is going to take about 3 hours, as I want to simulate the time between shots much as it would be at a match. Otherwise just loading and shooting in a fast paced tempo won't tell us much either, as we all should be aware ,the longer a barrel stays open between shots the more time the fouling has to dry and harden.
I also want to know a little about the capabilities of this lube before launching into a full blown head to head test. I can say right now from the 2 sessions so far , I'm pretty sure Harlans lube will go about 3/4 of the way, and SPG will be doing good to go half. But I could be wrong, but won't know until there's time to shoot it as it should be shot.

[herbert buckland]

I think we have a few Aussies and Kiwi's here that may help when that time comes.
The lube I made up today looks very good, very smooth and slick.
I ran a test I had in mind for some time but had put off during our shut down.
It started with a batch of bullplate and I blended with it an equal part of a mineral oil.
Those blended nicely so then I added an equal part of water. The mineral oil absorbed the water and all stayed together without separating.
Now I dont plan on adding water to my lube but if your with me on this I think you know where its going. Yup the water is added by the shooter with a blow tube and should mix just as readily if the RH is low enough to call for tubing.
If we can get a lube that mixes with the powder fouling and can absorb whatever moisture is available either from the atmosphere or from blow tubing we should have exactly what is needed.If you need someone in Australia to test youre I will put my hand up,I live on the north coast of NSW wear it gets very hot over sumer although the humidity is yously high you do have low humidity days,I mostley shoot a
Alexander Henry & Martini Henry 577-450s,but I also do faire bit with the 56-50 spencer if this can be of any help,my lube is home made BW and olive oil to suite conditions

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don, Got ya ,see what you mean conditions were changing fast then.

I will have to disagree on leaving the action open, fouling in relation to its environment will reach a equilibrium then it will dry or wetting no further unless the shooter induces moisture.

One thing I have learned over the years if I shoot then quit and leave the action open, and do not blow, as Halford taught in his old book to not blow, until ready to shoot again as if you have moisten the fouling allowed it to dry then it will not rehydrate very well for the follow up shot. This have been prove true by myself many times over the years.

Silhouette matches are usually with 3-5 sighters and then 5 shots for record a single bank, in 7 mins time, then you have 3-8 mins of time for the reset of targets. Most of the good silhouette shooters just open the action and put the rifle in cradle or stand behind the firing line (safety rules in regard to the setters down range setting targets). Shooting fast for 7-10 rounds is what and where a rifle in silhouette will fail you if it fouls out.

After targets are set then when I get the ready command is when I blow tube for my first shot in Bank #2 or Shot #6 for record, 5 mins time for the last 5 animals no sighters of course.

Many times I see shooters first animal in bank 2 a miss with a low or high shot. Thats because when they got done with shot #5 in the first bank they blow tubed the rifle before putting it in the rack or the stand behind the line.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Yeh matter of fact conditions changed so fast, right after I typed the last response , I looked and the temp has dropped to 29 and the humidity was up to 49. The bottom of this basin can throw some wierd things at you. I didn't know the wind had picked up at the target like it had until the miss on shot nine and the dust really took off,headed towards Lingle.... It was dead calm here at the house. For a wonder everything on the place isn't purtneart dead from pnuemonia the wild swings we're getting here this last week.
Yup agreed on leaving the action open and the rehydrating with a tube. One of the things I'm looking at is not having to bother with the tube so much. Carol forgets to give the deep breaths she needs to do, and then we get into a chambering problem, and she doesn't want to wipe between shots either......
I'm hoping that we hit those long warm days in late January with the low humidity so I can really give a full blown comparison test. But in the meantime I'll keep pokin a few rounds here and there and keeping things alive.

[Doc Highwall]

A question for Kenny concerning shooting multiple lubes in succession. How well will you be able to remove traces of the previous lube to know that their are no traces to skue the next lube and will you run a jag with a patch with the next lube on it to condition the bore before the first shot. The reason I mention this is I shoot small-bore and I see shooters grab three or four different brands of ammo and proceed to shoot ten shots of each brand in succession without taking into consideration the fouling residue and claiming that this ammo brand is better then the others. I mention to them that they still have lube left over from the first ten shots when they are firing the last brand of ammo. Eley anno is a hard like wax and Wolf is like a silicone.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Doc thats a very good question.

I actually cleaned quite well between the lube tests, my first thing was to blow 6 deep breaths and then run a tight patch down the barrel, and observe the fouling left in the bore and took a hard look at the muzzle end. All 3 performed the same in that respect at 29% humidity. All 3 lubes are superior just from that simple test alone then most store bought lubes.

Next came 3 to 4 wet patches then a dry or two then 2 more wets and 3 drys to finish the cleaning up process. I use Butch's BP Bore shine as a solvent, this stuff is by far the best I have ever used. Water is a great solvent and many use it. However Fixed carbon left behind from the combustion of BP is untouched by water. Butch's has MP-7 in it which is what our troops use to clean carbon from their weapons also..

This the above cleaning was done after each lube was tested before the next was even tried. it took me about 2 hrs just to sight in And fire 3 groups of 7-9 shots each.

My only concern is the fact that heat is the main player in lube failure and of course we wont be having much of that for the next 5-6 months here.

KW
The Lunger

I am encouraged by the initial results, in these conditions, Which I still consider quite mild, Bullshops NASA is equal to the other 2 lubes.

KW
The Lunger

[Bullshop]

There's a lot of shooters on several continents watching this thread and I think they are hanging onto the edge of thier seat right now, I know I am.
None of the mineral wax has arrived yet so I am waiting for that.
Herbert
We do have a volunteer from down under but he is not a castboolits member. We have some lube winging its way over now. Thank you for the offer.

[John Boy]

Fixed carbon left behind from the combustion of BP is untouched by water. Kenny, can you expound a tad about the fixed carbon left behind?
It's my understanding that BP foul consists of the following: potassium bicarbonate - potassium sulfide - unburned charcoal (is this what you are referring to?) and water

I'm a blow tuber but when I patch, I have been using Shenandoah Valley Black Powder Bore Cleaning Solvent and Patch Lubricant (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=561554) It is the 1st cousin reformulation to the original patented Lehigh Valley Lube and Patch Cleaner that is no longer available. Chuck Dixon, a ranked LRML shooter, and owner of Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop put me on to it

[Lead pot]

Bullshop

It should make it pretty soon. It was mailed on 29 oct.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

You will always have carbon left behind, Charcoal is carbon. I have seen folks that claim their barrel is clean put some Butch's on a patch and 4-5 strokes down the barrel blackish Gray patches.

Some of the very best Long Range BPCR shooters use it.

I know at least 3 that do.

KW
The Lunger

[Lead pot]

Harlan Sage has some new cleaner he was giving away samples at the last Alliance shoot.
I cleaned my barrel the usual way and when I was done I used some of his stuff on a clean patch and it had more carbon on it that did not show up on a clean patch I pushed through before I used his.

Kurt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Yeah Jimbo and I turned Harlin on to Butch's some time ago he has a similar formula now.

KW
The Lunger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Today looked to be a nice day with above avg temps and low Humidity for our area it was down to 18% here yesterday afternoon with no time to cast and load for the range.

I decided to stay home instead of going hunting for Whitetails today as I had high hopes of Getting conditions for a better Lube Test. And I did in Spades.

Cast up a dozen or so 38 Caliber Lyman's for the 38-50 and had a few left over from last time also.

Plan lubed up the bullets with Bull shop NASA and Kurt's Mineral Wax lube.

A single dip was used into the melted lubes this time as it gave plenty of lube on the bullets. I put both cups in the double boiler and indeed Kurt's Lube takes more time and a bit more heat to melt then the Bull shop lube. The higher melting point is interesting and is quite Important when it comes to Lubes failing in hot-Dry conditions. If one does not understand this then best to go read something else. The Higher melting point of the Mineral Wax has much to do with the Carrier failing the shooter and causing hard Fouling issues.


Bullets were seated with seating die on 54 grs of 1.5 Swiss in a unsized-belled fire formed case with a HDPE Wad of .060 thickness. The bell was removed with the sizing die backed out 3 full turns and a slight taper crimp to t he cases.

Testing was done at local Gun club at 200 yards on paper targets only real way to get accurate and subjective data in my opinion. I kept a close eye on the Weather as Temps rose and the Humidity dropped like a stone.

Temp was 74 degs at beginning of session and down to 72 degs at end of session. RH was 14% yeah!!! at the beginning and up to 16% at the end. Thats getting dry and much the Norm here. Dry enough to actually see something in the results. Wind was brisk at 12 to 18 Mph from the SSE I made no windage corrections just tried to shoot when my wind flag showed the same condition.

Fouling control was still used as anyone would use some, to try to get good results. Besides I did not want to lead up my rifle. I only used 3 Deep Breaths and kept hydrated the whole time I tested. I had good moisture flowing down the clear tube each time. At this low of Humidity thats not much blow tubing. I use often 6-8 Breaths at most matches I attend when blowing.

First lube tested was White Lighting to get a good zero also and to actually stack the deck a bit against it. I fired 6 shots zeroing and to build up fouling and some heat in the barrel. Then I moved to another target Pushed a dry patch after 3 breaths to come close to a clean barrel and shot a group again I stacked the deck against White Lighting Lube, I shot 9 shots total in stead of 8 or 7. First shot was high a bit of course as to be expected, but barrel was not totally clean. I did not count it in the group for size. Nor did I in the other groups.

Group is 2 7/16 tall by 2 3/4 wide just a bit over MOA. Was very good in my opinion for the wind conditions. After firing the group I took 3 deep breaths and pushed a Dry patch through the rifle. The fouling on the patch was not crusty nor did it hang up in the barrel the fouling on the patch was soft and not hard. The barrel was cleaned fully with Solvent and 4 dry patches clean up for the 13 shots was a breeze and actually Easiest, Kurt's lube was almost the same. NASA took a bit more cleaning but not enough to Warrant any discredit to it.


Next lube tested was Bull shops NASA Lube. First shot was quite hight almost off the target so it will not be in the group it was on order of 1 3/4 inches high and right of #2 shot.

I had 8 loaded but only 7 will be in the group due to the very High #1 Shot.

The very last shot #8 was the lowest. In the Group this usually would lead one to think fouling issues, I am not 100% on that, For the reasons described below.

I blew the same 3 deep breaths down the barrel and pushed a dry patch down the bore, patch came out actually a bit moist. Not much more then the White lighting but was visible before flashing off in in a short time. No hang up down the barrel with the dry patch, and each round chambered easily in the string. however the Vertical is of some issue even discounting #1 shot out of the clean barrel which I did for all 3 lubes. the Group is 4 7/8ths inches tall by 3 3/4 wide. Conditions for the Bull shop lube string where almost the exact same as the White lighting string. The very last shot was over 1 inch lower then the lowest shots in the rest of the group.

Barrel was cleaned again taking a couple more patches to get fully clean then white Lighting, the Bees Wax I am thinking was at or near failure level. However what ever bull shop is adding to allow the lube to hydrate is working Exceptionally well. the vertical of almost 5 inches at 200 yards is disconcerting for this shooter.


Last lube tested was Kurt's Lube with his Mineral Wax base,

Conditions dropped just a bit and stayed very consistent for this string, and it shows in the target-group. I had miscounted and only loaded up 7 cases for Kurt's lube. Shot #1 was high out of the clean barrel and not counted for group size but is in the picture of the group and marked as are the others. #4 shot went a touch low on a break I called not the best, so I don't think it was fouling, it however open the group to 3 inches tall by 2-13/16 wide with 4 of the 6 less then 1/2 inch of vertical and 5 of the 6 just at 2 inches very accurate and shows the steadier conditions for sure. By this time the barrel was quite a bit warmer then the White lighting Test or the Bull shop one. So this even reinforces my opinions on Kurt's Lube, it is every bit the Equal of White Lighting, most likely due to the Wax used.

3 Deep breaths again and a dry patch showed a patch much the same as the White lighting patches. Clean up was easier then bull shop lube but no more so then White Lighting.


I think I have seen enough but, a Hot Day will most likely be the only other test I need.

This much is Certain the Bull shop lube has something in it that Hydrates better enough to be seen with the Naked Eye, Based on that first Dry Patch. However the thing Hindering it I fully believe is the Bees Wax As I stated before I ever started this test. What ever is in the lube to make it Hydrate, is likely why it did so well at this low of a humidity.

I do not consider it having failed at this test but it certainly was on the ragged edge for my Accuracy Requirements.

Don stated that he had two low misses on a rather large target #9 and #13 I think. Most likely the load was fouling some.

No leading was found in any of the 3 loads tested, this is of some import consider that the Humidity was 14% to begin with and had only come up to 16% buy test's End.

My overall Opinion of NASA is that it is an excellent Lube, with More blowing say 5-6 breaths it's vertical in the Group most likely would been cut in half and been more on order of White Lighting or Kurt's Lube. For A Bee's Wax Based Lube it most likely is the best I have ever Tested based on Todays Test. And My Opinion is quite high of this lube at this time.

If Bull shop was Using what ever they are in the Lube, along with a Excellent Quality of Mineral Wax, instead of Bees Wax, like Kurt's Lube or White Lighting, That would, with out a doubt put it on par or perhaps even lower the failure rate of the lube. They are on to something for sure in my opinion, get that wax and then, We should be able to run a lube Test from hell!

It will flat out perform SPG, Sagebrush Alox, DGL, Black Magic, and my old White Lithium Grease Lube, that Much is Certain in my testing.

As I said I did blow tube, as I did now want to jam up my barrel with Crusted fouling and perhaps invalidate my testing. I pushed the limits to see where and if the lubes were at Failure levels. It would seem from todays test that White Lighting and Kurt's Lube are more then up too the Task at 74 Degas and 14 % Humidity. Bull shops lube I think is too with More Blowing, But it is at the ragged edge.

Finally: Even White Lighting and I am sure Kurt's Lube Will Fail, at 92 degs and 6-8% Humidity I have had (White Lighting) fail me with a blow tube, one can not keep enough moisture in the barrel it simply flashes off due the heat. Hence My reason I wipe at almost every match I attend, I can maintain a barrel condition and a very high level of accuracy with Wiping. Some match formats make that rather Difficult to do, Sitting Gong shoot Matches come to mind.

KW

The Lunger

[Bullshop]

Kenny that was a great test, thank you for that.
Yesterday I got the mineral wax from Kirt and also the two samples from the distributer.
All three are different grades of wax so I have a lot of work ahead of me.
You are most likely right about the bee's wax but it does seem that the nasa formula has at least lowered the RH limit that was originally set at about I think it was 30%.
Now if taking those ingredients and combining them with a mineral wax with just the right melting point does what I am hoping it will do we should really end up with something for our efforts!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bull Shop,,
As I said what ever you got in that lube it is hydrating very well even at 14% Humidity, the Only Weak Link is The Bee's Wax at this point, in my opinion.

I am more then 80% certain that the vertical was due to the wax nearing the failure point today but your Other ingredients are Doing a Excellent Job of countering that to a great extent.

Getting the Right quality of wax, I hope it comes easy enough, I think your lube is pretty darn good of all the commercial lubes one can buy today, If it were not for White Lighting, I would con Kurt into making my lube. However, if that was not do able, I am pretty sure I be using your stuff.

It is a excellent Lube right now, but with the right wax it would be the best in my opinion.

Kenny
The Lunger
Wasserburger

[Lead pot]

Thank you Kenny for doing this for me.

I just dont have those conditions, even though two weeks ago before the rains started again the humidity was 14% and temp in the upper 70's very unusual for here and the lube worked fine.
You know what the conditions were at the Q last June. The barrel got so hot for me that the forearm screw burned my hand and taking a drink of water now and then kept the fouling soft.
Since I gave you the lube I have added one more thing for the viscosity but it sure hinders holding the bullet by the nose when loading:-D

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Good test Kenny. Pretty much confirms the opinion of this NASA lube I've been forming. Probably one of the best commercially available bpcr lubes. Time will tell now. I've decided that this is the only lube we'll run in grease groove bullets this season.
90 degree heat will tell further tales on the stuff, but I think it'll hold up well past any of the other beeswax based lubes. And even at those temps as you stated the only way to get by with any bullet is wiping and still maintain any sort of accuracy.
Got to comptemplating the no leading thing, so I'm going to load up a small batch of 40-65's lubed with Nasa. I already know that Carols roller is the leadingest dang gun ever built no matter what lube , and powder, or what alloy. So if this Nasa will cut that down some I may put that rifle back to work for the loaner gun for the kids, neighbors etc that want to come to a shoot.
Will post target and results from this extreme test of the nasty 40-65 when I get er done maybe towards the end of next week.

[Doc Highwall]

Kenny, what was your bench set up, rear bag and a front rest or did you use bench sticks? Another question how does the fouling compare between this 38-50 that you shot today, and your 45-110 and will that be a factor?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt, it was my pleasure, as it was for Bullshop. We have been friends for some time, and when you showed me that lube last spring I was pretty excited. It is darn good stuff.

I always enjoy seeing you and your missus, wonderful lady and pretty darn good spotter. Spending time with you guys is always A High Point, Good friends-Good People.

You need to make my match, we have a lot of fun and the match is where the road meets the Highway, It is a tough match and man you can learn soo much there. We almost always hold some sort of wind school or other thing practice days and I try to spend most of my time with the shooters. Something you dont see at the Quigley or other matches.

Don let us know how that test shakes out, with that leading Roller. For me shooting a roller is akin to taking your sister to the Prom, I have never liked the darn things had one belt the **** out of me at a Local Gillette match in 1994 and I have hated the things ever since. There was one though, Kenny Durham's Bodine that I shot at my match one year, 2002 I think it was, on Marstin the Kagga Roooo. 820 yards and I could not miss with that rifle, it was well stocked and one of the best shooting Pedersoli's I have ever shot. Kenny and Sheri where staying in my camper, and we had a blast with them.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Kenny this thing when in a good mood will really shoot and shoot well, but with it's bad leading habit getting and keeping it in a good mood is the trick.
Think I'll do a 20 round thing. First will be 10 rounds blowtubed and all just like it should be, then I'll go in and see what sort of mess there is for lead. Then I'll do the plug the thing up deal and run 10 rounds no tube , no wipe. If I can get by with less than a 1/4 cup of turpentine to get the lead ,if any out, I'll be pretty satisfied.
Now off to the powder magazine for the 3f express....

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Hey Doc,

I used a BR-2 Rock Front Rest with the heavy legs on it about 20#. Rear Bunny Ears bag setting on a small wooden Block elevator another bag to my right for my elbow to rest on. Rifle was scoped with the Silhouette Scope 23 inch from MVA mine all have Creedmoor Mounts on them for Long Range even though Lars does not like to put them on Jim though does it for me. Excellent setup for load testing.



This small bore rifle fouls with 1.5 swiss quite a bit as 54 grains is with the 333.8 Grain Bullet a pretty hot load. in Silhouette I Wipe with it always. However my 45-110 causes barrel warm up real quick and fouling can be an issue with these. I did my initial testing with lubes years back though with my 45-70 Shiloh and once had fouling set up, with SPG for lube at a gong shoot at Broadus MT so bad it was like cement in the barrel It took days to get it out. That spot always was a problem in that barrel as the spot was about 12 inches from the Muzzle and I know now that was a bad spot in my barrel when we cut it up this summer.

KW
The Lunger

[waksupi]

Thanks for doing the testing, and keeping us up to speed, guys.

[Gellot Wilde]

+1

Been watching this thread with great intrest.

[Bullshop]

OK last night I made a batch of lube using the wax Kurt sent me and the same recipe as nasa but only changing bee's wax for ozokerite.
The lube is a bit harder than I like but thought I would try it anyway.
I did a very informal test with two 5 shot groups at 100 yards, one group with tubing and the other without.
The first group put the first shot from a clean barrel about 2" high out of the group and the rest in 1.5". I use three puffs after each shop and three before wiping after the 5th shot. All cartridges loaded without resistance. The muzzle was wet and greasy. A dry patch went through and was greasy wet. That all seemed good.
The second group without blowing was not so good. The first two went into the same group as the previous group but the last three scattered into 4". The cartridges chambered easily but the muzzle fouling was dry and the last half of the barrel length had dry fouling. Our temp was about 15F and RH 88% and we were getting a heavy hoar frost. The same test with the nasa with bee's wax did better without blowing than this lube with the mineral wax.
Like I said with a straight across swap for wax this seemed too hard for me. I am now going to try to tweak the mix a bit to improve the hardness. It did dip lube nicely though.
I do have two other types of mineral wax to try but I wont do that until I am satisfied I have done everything I can with this one. When I am satisfied with it with just this simple test I will then send out samples to Don, Kenny, and our friend down under.

[Don McDowell]

Sounds interesting.

[Bullshop]

Just back from the drawing board so to speak. Did a little tweaking on the formula and it came out much more to my liking. This mineral wax is quite some harder and more brittle than bee's wax and I thought it may take some tweaking but I wanted to try the formula unchanged at first.
It dipped lubed just as nicely as before with one dip being more than plenty. Pushing them through a nose first sizer wipes a nice fat lube ring off and the grooves are full.
I dipped 10 boolits again and Lord willing I will repeat today's test tomorrow.
Just like Kenny said the patched run through the barrel after blowing were kinda wet. Still I thought that with an RH of 88% that no blowing would have done better than it did. I guess the 15F temp negates the high humidity. We will see how it goes tomorrow.

[StrawHat]

Always interesting reading when a group of folks are willing to combine rather than compete. Thanks to all for doing this and helping those of us who can't.

I look forward to the results.

[Dan Cash]

A couple of questions for Kenny W, Don Mc, et.al:

What is the ammunition temperature when fired?

Is there any consideration for establishing ammo temperature to replicate high ambient temperature firing?

[semtav]

Kurt's Lube takes more time and a bit more heat to melt then the Bull shop lube. The higher melting point is interesting and is quite Important when it comes to Lubes failing in hot-Dry conditions. If one does not understand this then best to go read something else. The Higher melting point of the Mineral Wax has much to do with the Carrier failing the shooter and causing hard Fouling issues.
KW
The Lunger

Hopefully this isn't off topic, but since KW brought it up, thought I'd ask here.

In looking for ingredients, I'm always looking for the highest temp, but wondering if that is the most important feature< or even the right direction.

1. Melting Point
2. Smoke point
3. Flash Point

Is the melting point really that important other than for the consistency of the lube?

If the smoke point is important,( I assume that is why peanut oil is highly recommended as an oil), why not use Avocado oil since it has a much higher smoke point?

Since the flash point of most organic oils is relatively the same, 700* or thereabouts, does it really matter about the smoke point.

Waxes on the other hand have a much higher range of melting/flash points.

lastly, something I'm still trying to wrap my mind around, and that is the water soluability of a wax. i would think that is a good thing for BP, yet I see most of the recommended waxes listed as non water soluable.

Any insights?

thanks
Brian

[Lead pot]

:D There sure is a lot of interest in lube :lol:

I have a three gallon bucket just about to over flow from lubes that just don't quite cut the mustard like my tallow or the O-Wax does. :D

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Dan I don't think the temperature of the ammo itself would matter as much as the temp of the barrel steel and the humidity. Altho as you know in cold temps things dont' always work the way we'ld like....

[Bullshop]

Well we tried to get out to cut some wood today but couldn't buy gas so I shot the ten test rounds.
Same test shooting 5 shot with blowing and 5 without. This is with the tweaked formula that is softer. RH today was 84% and temp was zero F.
First 5 with blowing was about the same results with good wet greasy fouling through out the barrel and at the muzzle. The dry patched jag felt like it would have fallen through with the weight of the rod. Grouping was not as good as yesterday but that may have been me as it was zero F and my rest set up is no where near what I have been seeing from others here. I was shooting without gloves too so may be hurrying the shots a bit.
Things went quite a bit better this time with the non blowing shots. The group was about equal to the blowing group but for all 5 this time. Fouling was dryer than with blowing but not completely dry. Even at the muzzle it could still be smeared between fingers without any crunch.
A dry patch pushed through but did give a bit more resistance toward the muzzle. Even so the barrel was clean with one dry patch, not spotless but looking through looked shiny. This should make clean up between relays much easier.
I think I will stay right there with the ozokerite wax.
The next thing I want to try is a mineral wax called Cerecin. It is a bit closer to bee's wax in texture perhaps right between the ozokerite and bee's wax in hardness.
Our weather is far from ideal for testing right now so please bear with me.
If Kenny and Don would like to try a sample of this most recent batch I tested today let me know. I made about a pound of it and will split that up between you guys and Mr. Molds from down under.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bullshop,

I signed up for the Full ride.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Yes you can send me a stick of hunk of it, be glad to give it a whirl.

I shot some 40-65's today. As I had forgotten about having completely swapped sights off of this rifle I had to start with getting a mechanical zero, so there's nothing much to show about accuracy.... But:holysheep During the course of getting the windage zero I fired 20 rounds. Now this is thru a roller and if you know anything about rollers , you know that if there's trouble in the chamber and fouling is getting stiff, you'll have a devil of a time seating the breechblock completely. 20 rounds the last one chamber as easy as the first, no tubing, no wiping.
Load consisted of 60 grs 3f express a .030 wad all crammed into a starline 40-65 case,with a RCBS csa 400 bullet lubed with the Nasa and seated to the driving band.
I have not been to the gong to have a close look yet, but there doesn't seem to be enough horizontal stringing to get upset about, at least on the last 10 that made it onto steel. The rest were in the dirt until I got the elevation and windage close enough to get onto steel.
Cleanup was a snap, ran a Dave Maurer armory patch on a Steve Rhodes delron wiping rod down the tube... Last couple of inches of this 28 inch barrel had some stiffer fouling. Cleanup was accomplished with about a half dozen patches alternated between Sagebrush bore cleaner and dry.
Now for the best part, while there was some leading, and mostly at or near the end of the barrel , it was nothing as is usuall with this rifle using either SPG or Sagebrush alox..Something along a dozen patches with the last 3 doubled and pushed thru on a jag just to be sure....
This Nasa lube is great stuff and I have no qualms about using or recommending it.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don am not sure what its like down there but its 66% RH here today and 41 degs, Not what I would call any kind of conditions to really give a valid test.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

51 and 32%. Shot this rifle enough to know a bit about what sort of bs it'll throw round, hot or cold wet or dry......

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don got ya on the knowing the rifle, what I am getting at at 32% humidity I can get any lube to work.

The leading at the end of the barrel, If you had blow tubed? wonder then, I got to agree that the leading issues with Bullshop lube maybe a cure all, and who knows?

The issue is, or how I look at it, if you dont fire anykind of control along side, results and comments on such are purely speculation, on ones part. At 14% Humidity I had vertical nearly 2.5 MOA of it from a very solid Bench Rest setup and the last shot dropped out of the group by over 1 inch. Where the two other lubes barely broke the MOA mark.

Bullshop am glad to hear you like that Ozerkertie Wax. I think its the cats meow, now just to get it the right softness and that tacky stuff you use, or what ever makes it hydrate, Pick up abient Moisture. like your NASA does now and you will have one of the best if not the best comerical lube on the Market.

KW
The Lunger

[mustanggt]

What is Ozerkertie wax. I've not heard of it. Is it animal, vegitable or mineral? Sorry if you've answered it before.

[Don McDowell]

Kenny this rifle has been such a horribly fouled out mess of a thing with any lube or bulet tried, except for patched. Spent several hours with Ron Long right after it was first completed hoping he could help me figure out why it was the mess it was.
Typically without heavy blowtiubing or wiping fully chambering rounds after about 6 or 7 would take some pretty heavy handed smacking on the breechblock. No matter what lube or what conditions, including in the rain at Alliance.
At anyrate maybe what you're looking for out of this lube and what I am looking at are different things.
I'm looking for a lube that will allow a string of fire sufficient to cover a relay at most gong shoots with minimal/improper blowtubing technique, yet still be able to keep shots on steel. So far in all the trials I've given this stuff it's passing admirably. I am pleased with the accuracy it's holding, I'm absolutely impressed with the ability to go long strings, and the almost NILL leading in this Green mtn barrel from todays 20 round trial has me convinced this stuff is the real deal.
As stated earlier the fouling in the last few inches of the barrel was pretty stiff, but at least in was near the muzzle and not all the way thru. Blowtubing would likely of made it very soft, but that's not what I'm looking for at the moment.
The acid test will come over an extended session of firing. You can do side by side comparisons of a few rounds, but the real proof in the pudding is coming at the end of a shooting season, in a variety of locations and weather.
A year from now we'll know more about how it preforms.

[Bullshop]

mustanggt
It is a mineral wax. I understand it is mined. Most sources seem to be foreign and associated with an outfit called alibaba. Sounds too rag head for me so I was pleased when Kurt set me up with a US distributer.
Kenny and Don you both seem to have different objectives and working different ways but I am truly thankful for the input from both of you.
I can see where Kenny's testing is more matter of fact but I like what Don is doing too, applying it to the type of shooting he does in competition. All of it is good good good.
I am also sooooo glad to see NASA get such good grades from some folks with unquestionable credentials.
I am still waiting to hear from our friend down under Mr. Molds. (kewl name) on how it is going for him. I suspect that delivery is holding things up a bit there.
I will keep plugging away here with the other two waxes I still have to try. I just cant express how pleased I am with the way this is going, and enjoying every minute.

[John Boy]

Dan, now we are getting some good information ... ozokerite and ceresine (cerasin of commerce). Take a look at what Wikipedia has to say about both waxes ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozokerite#Sources

Items of interest:
* ozokerite melting Point - 58 to 100 °C. - refined ozokerite or ceresine, which usually has a melting-point of 61 to 78 °C - whereas paraffin melts between about 47 °C and 64 °C

* ozokerite consists of a mixture of various hydrocarbons, containing 85-7% by weight of carbon and 14-3% of hydrogen.
(Common properties of hydrocarbons are the facts that they produce steam, carbon dioxide and heat during combustion and that oxygen is required for combustion to take place.)

* ozokerite yields a candle-making material resembling the paraffin obtained from petroleum and shale-oil but of higher melting-point, and therefore of greater value if the candles made from it are to be used in hot climates.

* Galician ozokerite varies in color from light yellow to dark brown, and frequently appears green owing to dichroism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichroism

* Note how ozokerite is refined to ceresine, using oil of vitrol ... sulfuric acid

[mustanggt]

BS, JB thank you for your replies. Sounds like it's good stuff.

[semtav]

http://www.makingcosmetics.com/Natural-Waxes-c27/


http://www.frankbross.com/ozok.htm


Two places that sell it.

Since I wanted to get some Avocado and Coconut oil also, I ordered a small amount from the first address.

[John Boy]

I'm thinking out loud now ... what IF ozokerite or ceresine was mixed with mutton tallow, say 70:30?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=Physical+properties+of+mutton+tallow&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS177US207&ie=UTF-8 ... read the pdf - Investigacion

[Don McDowell]

Dan I'm satisfied with the "torture" tests . So far it has far surpassed my expectations and my previously known limits with the other lubes in 3 rifles.
From here on the shot strings will be confined to 12 maximum as none of the shoots I regularly do call for any more than that.
Next time out will be a more normal deal with blowtubing.
I'm also really curious as to what wiping between shots with 1 dry flannel patch will yield.

[semtav]

in case anyone thinks this is a new discovery:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10490&highlight=ozokerite

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4076&highlight=ozokerite

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=6562&highlight=ozokerite

[Lead pot]

I used the tallow with the OZ and it works good but the higher temp the OZ takes to melt has a tendency to turn the mix to a tan color and the tallow tends to make a brown string like stuff floating in the mix if you over heat it. It does no harm and settles to the bottom fast when you pan lube.
Just peanut oil and OZ works about as good as anything and it hydrates the best this way and it will hold when it gets hot.
I have added one more Item to the mix to make the bullet almost impossible to pick up by the nose. Kinda like Don's Cow drool:) but it's not needed.

One thing about this lube you want to keep in mind.
When the barrel gets very hot the lube star will get crusty if you just use oil, but blow tubing will soften it with out a problem. Since I added one more step that problem is gone for now. Time will tell when the fore arm screw burns my hand again next summer.
This is no issue with my tallow lube that ole Spike showed me how to make over 50 years ago and it seems like I always go back to using it like I do the Big 50.

Kurt

[Bullshop]

The only new discovery here is that a bee's wax carrier lube can still perform admirably well below the previously thought minimum humidity.
We raised the bar!
I hope it will not be the only discovery that comes about by our efforts.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

hi guys,
just joined up out of respect for dan, who has done me the honour of sending me some bullshop lube to test under australian summer conditions.
my two requirements are for a libe which will work tubing in summer, and what i consider a much tougher ask, wiping between shots.
when tubing, i think a bullet is travelling up a lubed bore, if the lube contains things which will form soaps when combined with alkaline powder fouling and water.
when wiping, the front band is in a condition of great peril.
my best lube so far in spades has been beeswax/tallow 50/50, but i worry about its capability in summer here, so dan's offer is of great interest, particularly in light of don & kenny's results.
i will report results as they arise.
dan theodore's lube also looks interesting.
kurt has been very helpful to me, and i have started mucking around with ozokerite, but not yet tried any down a barrel. one of its strengths seems to be its great carrying capacity for oils compared to beeswax. kurt suggested 3 oil to 1 ozokerite, and this looks good.
finding this interesting,
bruce moulds.

[martinibelgian]

I'll give the ozokerite thing a try in the Martini 577-450 - it has fouled out on me a few times already in competition which forced me to go to lube cookies (under the GG bullet...), so if it will work with that one without a lube cookie, I know it 'll be a winner...
The combination of a light barrel, heavy powder charge and 13 shots without cleaning can really make for demanding conditions when temp gets up and humidity is low.
The barrel is Henry rifling, which is pretty deep and has lots of corners, really ideal for fouling out!

[BRUCE MOULDS]

here are melting points of some waxes. (not guaranteed)
bees 61-68
ozokerite 73 - 76
carnauba 80 - 85
micro 63 - 68
candelilla 69 - 73
japan 53 (japan wax is in fact a fat rather than a wax)
what happens to these numbers when mixed with other things is of interest.
while of interest, it might be irrelevent. the important thing is whether or not it works as a lube under shooting conditions.
if the fact that ozokerie has a higher melting point than beeswax makes it a better lube ingredient, then it doesn't offer a huge temprerature advantage.
beeswax is reported to give serious carbon fouling under certain circumstances. worse than some mineral waxes.
bruce moulds

[martinibelgian]

Well, if only one thing, this thread has put to rest the urban myth that mineral products are not suitable for BP use...

[Don McDowell]

Kurt the barrel heating thing does play a part. Yesterday with the roller, I wasn't really waiting much between shots, only long enough to tap the front sight over and then fire again. By the end of the 20 rounds the barrel was getting pretty warm. So that likely accounts for alot of the crusty fouling near the muzzle.

Cow drool? where can we get some of that.....

[semtav]

I used the tallow with the OZ and it works good but the higher temp the OZ takes to melt has a tendency to turn the mix to a tan color and the tallow tends to make a brown string like stuff floating in the mix if you over heat it. It does no harm and settles to the bottom fast when you pan lube.

Kurt

Kurt
thats interesting cause I just mixed a small batch of tallow/parrafin/oil and a touch of carnauba yesterday. since the carnauba has a high melting point like ozokerite, I would have thought it would be a problem, but I just put it all in a small crock pot and let it sit until the carnauba dissolved. It all came out white and no problems.
Maybe you were doing it too high and too fast. Or maybe its cause I'm just using a small amount of it and not as a main ingredient.

Brian

[Lead pot]

Brian I said that happens when you over heat it.

I make my initial lube mix differently than most that make there lube.
When I make a batch of my tallow lube or this OZ wax lube I melt it down in a deep fryer with water. I add the components ,wax/oil or what ever and let it boil just above a simmer long enough so the water dont boil all out. This is how I was told to do this by a man in his 80's back in 1954-55?? don't remember for sure anymore that used to say that is how my Paw and uncles used to make there lube and they were hiders but that is another story.

What he said the reason for this is to get some of the moisture to mix with the tallow to help making the fouling softer and it mixes it better than putting it over a fire that will over heat it and what ever impurity's that are in the tallow will be on the bottom when the lube cools and you can scrape it off like when you render the lard into tallow.

Does this help ??? I feel it does or I would not have been doing it this way.
It was Spikes way and it's my way.

Kurt

[Bullshop]

Bruce
So glad to see you on board. Would you please give us an idea of what your weather is like during your summer? Did you receive the first shipment of nasa yet? I am getting ready to ship the second batch with the OZ wax. I will mark it clearly so they dont get mixed up.
One thing I wonder about melting point has to do with foul out before the cartridge ever gets fired or even chambered. The one time I got to shoot at the Quiggley it was so hot that some folks had thier ammo foul out from lube melt. What I am looking for is the best balance between what will resist melting from ambient heat but still do its job in the barrel.
Another thought I ponder on is how the lube transfers its moisture to the powder fouling. Its it due to the lube melting or is it due to compression squeezing it out of the mix. If compression is a factor then I think a mix that is at the saturation point of the wax may deliver more lube/moisture to the fouling. I have noticed that ofttimes when I use a lube cookie sandwiched between two wads I find the sandwich remains in front of my bench. Sometimes they look like they could be used again. Even so they did thier job because the barrel was lubed. So this disc of lube under pressure going down the barrel was distributing lube only from its outer edge and apparently wiping a film on its way. I am thinking aloud here but wondering what difference there would be say with a mix at say 50% of its saturation point or at 100%. I also wonder about the ability of some carriers to better hold thier constituent parts to resist bleeding, or weeping of thier oils to become a threat as a powder contaminant.
I have an idea that somewhere there is a BEST balance that will or can be found through trial and error. I guess of course that balance will be specific to a set of conditions as to temp and RH. Wow full circle! That's what the old timey shooters found out long ago.
Sorry guys I am rambling my curiosities.

[semtav]

Brian I said that happens when you over heat it.

I make my initial lube mix differently than most that make there lube.
When I make a batch of my tallow lube or this OZ wax lube I melt it down in a deep fryer with water. I add the components ,wax/oil or what ever and let it boil just above a simmer long enough so the water dont boil all out. This is how I was told to do this by a man in his 80's back in 1954-55?? don't remember for sure anymore that used to say that is how my Paw and uncles used to make there lube and they were hiders but that is another story.

What he said the reason for this is to get some of the moisture to mix with the tallow to help making the fouling softer and it mixes it better than putting it over a fire that will over heat it and what ever impurity's that are in the tallow will be on the bottom when the lube cools and you can scrape it off like when you render the lard into tallow.

Does this help ??? I feel it does or I would not have been doing it this way.
It was Spikes way and it's my way.

Kurt

Guess I'm from the new Generation. I just throw my ingredients into one of those little personal crockpots and walk away.

I'm also not very good at saying what I mean. . I know you knew you were burning it.

[dangerranger]

Ive been following this thread with much intrest. I live in the central valley of CA where the daytime temps are normally above 90 deg and the hum is in the teens from late march through late oct. just this week I shut down our evaperative coolers. we normally get 50 or more days over 100 deg. I think for my uses you guys are beyond the time for testing that would will be usefull. Im intrested in what the Aussies are going to find as they are just coming into there hot season. I did read with intrest that the temp of loose ammo is not thought to be a concern. I carry my ammo in a cooler [ not on ice, just protected from the sun] . the temp in the cab of a closed pu will easily get over 150deg here. and will melt the lube off of loaded bullits. Ive seen more than once powder charges fouled by leaving it out the the sun. DR

[martinibelgian]

DR,
There is an easy solution to that one, which will get you away from all contamination and melting issues - it's called 'paper patching' :-) Otherwise, store you ammo bullet down, at least the lube won't contaminate the powder.
But yes, I'm also pretty interested in the outcome of this thread, we have something interesting going here... And what ever works in the Oz. temperature extremes will work just a bout anywhere.

[Don McDowell]

If you're ammo is so hot that the lube is migrating out of the lube grooves and contaminating the powder, either you got some of the crappiest lube ever built, or it's to dang hot to be shooting.
We shot Kenny's Creedmoor match in June of 07 when it was 115-120degrees and about 0% humidity. The rifle barrels were almost to hot to touch before a round even went off, and there were several folks learned an awful lot about fouling control and the value of a good wiping rod that day....
The Sagebrush match in August at Alliance can also give a lube a good run for it's money.
Once it starts getting over 90 there a very few if any lubes that will hold up without excessive blowtubing, and most will benefit by the aid of a good wiping routine.

[semtav]

Bullshop.

I don't suppose you remember what kind of Lube and what the loads were for the shells you sent with the 50-90 you sold me?
Grease grooves were covered so I coldn't tell.
Finally got around to shooting most of them up yesterday.

Like a D.A., I forgot to put a Buttpad on, but the GG loads were very pleasant to shoot, and very accurate.

I can't say the same for those PP loads. They flat kicked my ****.


Brian

[Lead pot]

Now Brian you ain't getting wimpy on us now are you ???:smile:

[semtav]

Might be. Definitely gonna put the wuss pad on before I shoot the rest of them.


Going to shoot my 45-120 at the local gong match this weekend, and thought I'd better quit before I developed a bad case of the flinches.

I don't know how much or what kind of smokeless powder he dumped in there but is sure has a sharp bite to it.

Brian

[Bullshop]

Brian
I have a lot of loads charted for 50/90 but I dont remember which you got. I just gave you everything I had. I do remember the PP were loaded for our moose season and loaded reasonably stout.
Don
I remember at the Quiggley it was 106f but I dont know the RH.
I remember this poor fellow came to me Saturday evening and said he couldn't even hit the hillside with any consistency and would I look his rifle over. I asked if I could see his ammo too. I found he was using a hard commercial cast with the real hard brittle lube and shooting BP. Need I say more? That night we pounded out the fouling and got it cleaned up then pulled his boolits and replaced them with mine as I was a vendor at that shoot.
Needless to say he was well pleased with the change. Spending some time with him and his FIL that night I got to know them and then on Sunday his FIL won the drawing for the Shiloh rifle. It was hilarious to watch him when he heard his name called.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don pretty much hit it on the head,

No amount of blowing will work at higher temps, your moisture in the breath flashes off in a instant and that actually damp fouling that drys, is Crusty to the extreme it is worse then not blowing at all. Wiping is the only way to go yet I am learning there are better methods even there.

I am doing some real hard Serious Research into "Treatment" as the old Dead guys call it. AKA to us today Fouling Control. I have a pretty extensive library as some of you know. I am finding some very interesting things, and somethings Dan T has shared with us make mountains of Sense to me now.

Halford give little info as it the time he wrote in 1888 wiping was no longer Allowed. However other well known shooters as Stamford Young and Robert McVittie left behind some darn good Information. I have several of Grenner's Books, But the more I read of his stuff the less impressed with him I am.

Mainly due to his revisionist History he writes on the Original Creedmoor matches, if one is lead to believe from his writings, us poor yanks never held a candle to the Brits in the Long Range International Matches. Funny all other accounts tell a much different story.

I think there is lots of good information in Sharpshooting for Sport and War and His Gun and it's Development. But I do not much care for his version of The Creedmoor Matches of the 1870's. His stiff upper lip and Stoic British Upbringing must make it hard to swallow that the Brits except for one make up invite match, had their Butts handed to them every time they shot against us.


I am ,along with Jimbo, developing a wiping Method, much of which Dan has tested already that Will yield some excellent results.

One other venue where much can be learned is from the old Slug Gun shooters and is one of the reasons I am investing a good bit of money into getting several of these rifles to further my knowledge and testing.


I suspect I will be filling several more journals before this is done.


KW
The Lunger

[Doc Highwall]

And the quest for knowledge continues. For me it seems that every time I learn something new, I become aware of two things I do not know. Then when I learn the two new things I become aware of four things I do not know, and it still gives me pleasure to know that something new and interesting is around the corner making this endeavor a great pleasure with people that share the same passion, The quest for knowledge.

[Bullshop]

I have been lusting for a long range slug gun for a long time. Cant swing it for a while but there is hope.
A few years back a group of fellows calling themselves the Dirty White Boys contacted me about making some boolits for them from thier designs.
After seeing how accurate these fellows were shooting muzzle loaded boolits of bore diameter I got a couple of those White rifles to try myself. Truly amazing, and I know I am only seeing through a crack in the door. So much to learn.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

for situations such as dangerranger mentions, and kenny's match, it would seem that wiping with current lubes is a necessity.
which raises the question. is a good wiping lube necessarily the same as a good tubing lube?
when you wipe using current wiping products, all traces of lube are removed from the bore. all the lube has to do is get the one bullet out of the barrel. it would appear that this is often a big ask for current lubes going by reports of leading at creedmoor matches and my own experience. i do wonder however if some of this could be due to nose slump caused by too soft an alloy for bore riding noses required for long range shooting.
when you tube, there is saponified product in the bore formed by the reaction between fats in the lube and alkaline ash from the burned powder. this is probably the best lube there is and it is already in the bore for second and subseqent bullets to slide over. but it requires the presence of water to form, and water flashes off in real heat.
a wiping lube does need to lubricate the bullet, but not soften the powder fouling. a tubing lube needs to lubricate the first bullet, and have a constituent that will soften the powder fouling while lubing the bore.
there is a guy here who wipes a dry rag through a fired barrel once after each shot and that's it. obviously he is not shooting in extreme conditions, and he canremove most of the powder fouling while leaving some lube in his barrel unlike those of us using a cutting oil solution. it works for him under those conditions.
dan you asked about conditions here in aust.
i live in south aust where we have what is known as a mediterranian climate.
in summer it is often over 100 degrees for periods of time and the air is very dry. january and february are the driest.
one of my tests for lube which i think severe is to shoot dan theodore's minigroove money bullet blowtubing.
i call this bullet the problem child, because it is such a brilliant design, but takes a bit more thought and effort to reap the rewards. i am prepared to use a lube wad if necessary.
most of my shooting is on australian fullbore ranges at distances from 300 to 1000 yards, shooting next to fullbore shooters using 308 & 223 rifles. i have 15 minutes for 2 optional sighters and 10 to count, and have always needed 2 sighters. martinibelgian woud have seen this system, as it is standard british commonwealth fullbore.
i will also test the lube in a buffarms creedmoor design bullet, wiping and blowing.
have yet to receive the sample.
bruce moulds.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

how does grease work?
to my limited understanding,there is a base carrier, such as clay or lithium soap, which will keep oil at the point of friction, the oil doing the lubrication.
most of our lubes contain a carrier ( wax ) which may or may not also have lubricating qualities. probably beeswax would lube better than mineral waxes, but who knows.
this carrier must have the consistency to keep the oils at the point of lubrication.
the other things most lubes have are one or more fats, and one or more oils. i am beginning to ask whether the oils do the lubing, and the fats saponify with ash to make a lube for the next shot. on the other hand tallow or vegetable fats are a good lube on their own, and tallow was an ingredient of steam cylinder oil.
when we mix these in different concentrations, we get different consistencies, also an important issue. don't want it too hard or too soft or it won't work optimumly.
the carrier must not allow bleeding at concentrations required. interestingly i left some parrafin wax out in the sun last summer and it bled an ammount of oil due to heat.
dan you are not the only one who ponders these things.
sometimes shared ponderings can turn into great things.
bruce moulds.

[Lead pot]

My feeling on wiping after every shot is just another variable to contend with using a lube wad.
What's the use using a lube if you clean it out when you push a patch through to clean the bore.
Using a GG bullet that has lead making contact with the bore makes sense to use a lube but then you can just about use any lube to keep the lead from smearing in the bore during hot dry conditions but you wont get away with it using a blow tube.

Using a PP bullet is a different story. For this I dont feel lube is needed when you wipe between shots, but again there can be a problem like I ran into shooting my .44-90 bottle neck round with case neck separation (no I dont put anything below the case neck,wads/bullet bases/:p) this happens with the first shot out of a clean barrel as well as shot after several shots wiping between shots. This for some reason only happens using Swiss powder. KIK and Goex this has never happen. With the straight walled cases I never had this happen.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

kurt,
you make the same point as me.
if i have or want to wipe, i will use a pp bullet with no lube wad. keep it simple.
hunting with pp might be a different deal, but then you would also need a specialized projectile.
i want to tube gg bullets.
sometimes what you want and what you have to do isn't always the same thing though.
bruce moulds.

[enfield]

this maybe a dumb idea but has anyone used brake fluid as an ingrediant in BP lube? it's not petroleum ( well it doesn't hurt rubber like petroleum based oil ) and it has a high temperature boiling point. I put a little in a small batch and nothing bad happened, so I think I will substitute my oliveoil portion with BF for a test and see what happens.

[Don McDowell]

Thing is with wiping, softer fouling wipes out faster than hard fouling , lube does help to keep the fouling somewhat soft..... Consistant bore condition is the thing to look for.
With greasers I don't think wiping is necessary until the conditions start getting into the extreme. Up until then a couple of puffs thru the tube should keep the fouling soft enough that it won't tear at the bullet.
However one thing that sometimes gets over looked is the type of fouling left behind by different powders, and they're all different.

[PAT303]

Well I'm also in Australia and live in the desert were temps are mid 40'sC and I'm watching with interest as fouling here has always been dry and hard.Like a lot on here I've learned alot from this one thread. Pat

[semtav]

this maybe a dumb idea but has anyone used brake fluid as an ingrediant in BP lube? it's not petroleum ( well it doesn't hurt rubber like petroleum based oil ) and it has a high temperature boiling point. I put a little in a small batch and nothing bad happened, so I think I will substitute my oliveoil portion with BF for a test and see what happens.

It was on my list of oils to try. Automotive brake fluid will hurt certain rubbers tho.
Some of the old Aircraft used automotive fluid and newer ones use H 5606. Mixing them up results in the same ruined seals either way.
I'd probably try the LHM type since it is mineral based, where new ones are glycol/ether based or silicone based

[felix]

No, but the brake squeek oils could be good. They are very high temp tolerant, but I know nothing about their ignition properties. In other words, what happens after they char? Get hard? ... felix

[dangerranger]

If you're ammo is so hot that the lube is migrating out of the lube grooves and contaminating the powder, either you got some of the crappiest lube ever built, or it's to dang hot to be shooting.
We shot Kenny's Creedmoor match in June of 07 when it was 115-120degrees and about 0% humidity. The rifle barrels were almost to hot to touch before a round even went off, and there were several folks learned an awful lot about fouling control and the value of a good wiping rod that day....

the bullits were left in a closed vehicle, and yea its too dang hot to be shooting. anything left in the sun will be to hot to touch. we shoot under shades, morning and evenings only. the hot days I shoot only smokeless but if a better lube comes out of this it would extend the days I could use BP. Im concidering a try at BP silhouette. DR

[Bullshop]

G'Day Pat Welcome to the fun!

Bruce
Keep me posted, if it doesn't show soon I will ship more.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

first ozokerite test.
yesterday shot using 67 gm OZ, 200 ml caster oil (approx 3/1), 125gm copha (vegetable fat) and a bit of vaseline for good measure.
charlie dell would have laughed at this, due to mixing mineral and vegetable.
no animal fat was used due to information that it does not blend well with OZ.
the ammunition (45/2.4) was 74 gn sw 1f behind a baco creedmoor 540 gn,ignited by cci l.p. primers.
the groups were just over 1 moa at 200 yd sitting on a box and resting the barrel on a post traditional german pioneer style . grouping ability is probably better than this, as my eyes are not young.
wiping between shots cutting oil and water.
of particular interest is that when cleaning later with modern smokeless solvent, no black was apparrent on the rag as is the case with beeswax lubes.
this suggests that beeswax does in fact give carbon fouling, while OZ doesn't.
i don't present this coclusion as fact, but as a question.
bruce moulds.

[Bullshop]

That is interesting, but still I wounder. What I mean is I wounder if it is the bee's wax in and of it self that causes a problem or is it the bee's wax in conjunction with the organic fats and oils COMBINED that may cause a problem.
The reason I wounder is because of some of the results we are seeing from these tests.
We have seen that the nasa with bee's wax seemed to change our thinking just a little bit on what was felt to be a minimum of RH for acceptable performance.
Nasa though it does contain an organic, bee's wax does not contain any animal or vegetable oils. The lube in nasa is synthetic and seems to be the one difference between it and most if not all other BP lubes.
Since this whole test thingy is a quest to find out I guess at some point we will all know for certain.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

dan,
you make a valid point.
and does a bit of carbon fouling matter, as long as the rifle shoots straight and doesn't lead.
to be quie honest, if i find a commercial lube which works to my satisfaction, i will stop experimenting and just buy it.
at the moment,i am experimenting out of the square, because all the thoughts of a few years ago only seem to go half way.
hell, i remember when we all put neatsfoot oil in lubes because it softened fouling.
then everything in a lube had to be polar (animal or vegetable).
none of this has been up to what i want so i am leaping on the mineral bandwaggon, and it doesn't seem to be the troll under the bridge we were all led to believe.
kurt was the one who gave me the final push in this direction.
one area where i fear to tred is using saponification as part of the lube making process. this will generally raise the melting point to 400ish degrees. not being a chemist has up until now made me shy away from this.
also such lubes must be applied with a lube pump as opposed to pan lubing. leopold's lubes were said to be made this way, but who now knows how good they really were.
bruce moulds.

[Bullshop]

Another thing I ponder is the melting point of the carrier wax. What is better a high melting point or a lower one?
This line of thinking goes back to my previous post about things of which I wounder namely by what means is the lube in the carrier transferred to the powder fouling. Is it by compression squeezing it from the mix or is it by melting? If by melting then is the heat of the actual powder burn melting the lube as it travels down the barrel or is it from the residual heat left in the barrel and the lube left on the fouling then melting after the shot? To know what melting temp would be best for the carrier it would be best to know the answers to these questions. If melting after the fact then the optimal melting point would very with the conditions of the day, and again that is something that seemed to be agreed upon in the heyday of single shot target rifles of about 1880 to about 1920 give or take. So in that case we need a selection of lubes and a hot line to the weather channel.

[Lead pot]

The problem with making a bullet lube is adding to much hocus-pocus stuff in the mix that is not needed.
The cartridge rifle hasn't been around to long compared to the patch and ball and if the truth is known patch lube was mostly spit or animal fats.
The Sharps rifle co. let it be known that they used B-Wax and Sperm oil in there lube, a heavy mix of oil compared to the wax and it was a carrier known at that time to work. They had no idea I think that dirt could be turned into a wax back then.
But I would bet that more tallow was used back than because it was much easier to come by then B-Wax when they were out in the plains or mountains.
I know of one guy that was the son and grand son of a hide hunter that passed on to me what his Dad and Grand Father used and that was a tallow they made from there kill to make candles and there lube. The Tallow lube I use I always go back to because it works and works very good but people now days confuse a lard with tallow they are not the same. The stuff you get at Dixie is close to a tallow but it falls short by a long ways.

This Mineral Wax I been working with for about two years does something my Tallow does not do and that is it hydrates better with the use of the blow tube and holds the oil better. I can use a richer oil mix compared to the wax or tallow and also stands better when it gets hot.

Animal fats will mix with the mineral wax but you must be careful how you heat it. Vegetable oil just plain work better or you can use some of the synthetic esters and hydrates of mineral oil like you would find in a drug store not the mineral oils used for transformers or refrigeration.
Petroleum oil does not mix very good, you will see layers in the mix like oil in water when you stir it.
Keep it simple and if you do feel you want to add stuff like lanolin or any animal fats do it sparingly, I been down that road. A very little bit of motor honey is better than lanolin:-D

[Bullshop]

You know Kurt the best tallow I have ever found at least for the temps we get up here is buffalo. It is the only tallow I have used that is still slick to the touch at extremely low temp like 30 to 40 below zero. I live next to a buffalo farm and right in the middle of the winter range for our wild bison so have been able to get some.
I no longer use it but have a few gallons of it left somewhere. You are welcome to it if you want. I was only keeping it for smelting flux but moose works just as good for that.
I have read much about the big hunt and the use of the buffalo tallow for many things including boolit lube.

[Lead pot]

Dan, thank you, but no I use good ole corn fed deer. :-D
You might try the OZ wax for a flux it does not leave any of the stuff that floats on top of the alloy like a fat does and the flash point is at about 750 degs.

Kurt

[BRUCE MOULDS]

kurt,
you are certainly correct about the carrying capacity of ozokerite. it is impressive to say the least.
sharps lube was simple - wax and oil.
other rifle manufacturers recommended beeswax and tallow in varying proportions,the least proportion of tallow being 1/1, and some up to 3 tallow/1bees, and s&w even recommended pure tallow. how did these things work out where kenny lives?
only problem with tallow it melts when the heat turns up, other than that it works well. in summer here it can fail at 20% tallow.
what makes the OZ hydrate well? i suspect it could be not the OZ, but the sheer ammount of saponified oil.
let's hope dan can nail this one.
bruce moulds.

[Lead pot]

Bruce I never had a heat problem with the tallow the way I make it. The finished tallow is just like a tallow candle, except I don't use any salt like most use for a cure mine dont need it.
I have some tallow that is at least 8-9 years old sitting in the cabinet and it's still as good as the day I put it there.

The OZ I use, by itself will get sticky from the moisture with out anything added if you hold a small amount in your hand and gently blow through your hand and the wax.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

kurt,
you teach me something every day!
there must be more than one type of OZ, because mine doesn't hydrate at all when blown as you described.
back to the drawing board.
thank you for your constant understanding.
bruce moulds.

[Lead pot]

Well maybe your just drinking the wrong kind of brew:bigsmyl2:

[powderburnerr]

Daniel ,
I just got your pkg in the mail today and will coimmence with the test right shortly.
I want to do it in low humidity , but of course ot has been trying to snow for the last two weeks,,,I will post my findings, Dean

[semtav]

I used the tallow with the OZ and it works good but the higher temp the OZ takes to melt has a tendency to turn the mix to a tan color and the tallow tends to make a brown string like stuff floating in the mix if you over heat it. It does no harm and settles to the bottom fast when you pan lube.

Kurt


Kurt

I melted 4 parts of Mutton Tallow and 1 part Ozokerite together with a little oil tonight in the crock pot and it dissolved in nicely.
Mine has a melting temp of 164* to 169*. Maybe yours is one of the higher temp ones. or maybe its because I used a higher ratio of Mutton tallow to dissolve it.

One problem I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around is the notion that a non water soluable wax will blush if you blow on it. I'll have to see what it does after it is mixed with burned BP.

I'm going to experiment with different amounts and type of oils with that ratio of tallow/ozokerite.

Brian

[Bullshop]

I have three types of lube ready to go out to the testers. There are two with two types of ozokerite and one with cerecine wax.
The cerecine and the ozokerite that Kirt sent are harder than the ozokerite #77w.
The cerecine wax made a lube that is still brittle.
All three lubes with mineral wax required double the volume of bullplate that is in the nasa lube with bee's wax to be anywhere nearly as soft.
We are now getting some winter weather so I am in no position to tell from testing but going by the smooth consistency I like the # 77w mix the best.
I hope you guys get better testing conditions than I have especially down under.

[Don McDowell]

Well just about the time you thought this thread was dead and gone..... There was a package in the mailbox containing 3 of Bullshops new creations....
That package sat in the box for quite a while today and it's pretty chilly around here.
The "softened" recipe was softer alright. The other 2 were hard as a brick.
Will get a batch of rounds loaded with each recipe as soon as it warms up a tad and give them a go...

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I also got my lube the same day, and thank you Bullshop.

I honestly think will wait for warmer weather, To really give it a honest evaluation. On paper and against other control lubes.

Looking forward to that test a great deal. May even work it into my Phoenix Trip in March if all goes according to plans.

KW
The Bionic Lunger

[Bullshop]

OK Great! Yes I know for the northern hemisphere we are on hold as far as testing, buuuuuut thats why Bruce has agreed to help. He should now be enjoying summer weather down under so the testing will continue.
I too am in for the long haul so this thread is far from ended but there may be some time gaps.

[Lead pot]

I test things all winter long even in sub zero weather as long as I can keep my eyes from freezing shut. [smilie=f::smile:

[Bullshop]

That's funny because I have had my eyes freeze shut. When its very cold and windy the wind will make your eyes water so when you squint to protect your eyes they freeze.

[dangerranger]

That's funny because I have had my eyes freeze shut. When its very cold and windy the wind will make your eyes water so when you squint to protect your eyes they freeze.

And I complain when it gets down into the 30s! DR