Basic Die Design vs. Bullet Material

[Jech]

Since handloading is such a precise art where thousands of an inch make all the difference in the world...

When a person buys a set of dies for handloading example:(http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=242098 are they made for just jacketed/plated bullets? I can't help but wonder if certain components of the dies shouldn't be altered or even replaced for use with cast bullets; parts like the resizing die wouldn't need to size down the case so much to maintain the same level of case-neck tension, the flaring part of the powder-flow-through die would need to flare more or maybe at a different angle, the FCD should be slightly wider overall to accommodate for a bullet that's a thousandth of an inch large, increasing the cartridge's actual minimum final/sized diameter, etc You see what I mean I hope.

Posts about Lee FCDs swaging bullets, pictures of the visually extreme bulging in cases created by properly seating a bullet and so forth make me wonder if manufacturers shouldn't offer "cast bullet" alternatives to their usual die sets.

.....Or are we supposed to make our own alterations to these die sets or any die for that matter to support our habit?:castmine:

Just a passing thought today that ended up bugging me so I had to post and ask! ~ Jech

[jmsj]

Jech,
I have that same set of dies for my 45 ACP. I noticed that after I seated my bullets, I could see and feel the outline of the bullet in the case. I measured the expander and it measured .450. I was trying to seat relatively soft bullets that measured .452. The factory set up was actually resizing my bullets down. You can buy larger replacement expanders from someone for a few dollars, but I can't remember who. Hopefully someone will post that information.

I have access to a lathe and have made some larger expanders for my Lee and Lyman dies. Lyman offers larger expander plugs from the factory.
The use of larger expander plugs has really cut down on my leading and helped shrink my groups down.
As for the Lee Factory Crimp dies, I found that I have to be really careful not to over crimp.
Hope this helps, jmsj

[462]

Jech,
You address some very valid concerns that have frustrated many boolit casters and reloaders.

When I first started casting, all my handgun dies were Lee. Now, all my handgun dies are Lyman, and the Lee dies are someone else's headache.

Lyman's expander die -- M die -- actually expands the case mouth, rather than flaring it. In addition, it adds a small step that properly aligns the boolit, when seating. For a period of time, I was loading a boolit that was .006" over nominal dimension. The Lyman seater die did not swage it down.

RCBS's Cowboy dies are designed for fat boolits, but Lyman dies will get you there for far less money.

I'm not bashing Lee. I use their products every time I cast and load, and will be buying more. I think their rifle neck sizing and crimp dies are the bee's knees, but their handgun dies are not designed for boolits.

[1hole]

"the (Lee) FCD should be slightly wider overall to accommodate for a bullet that's a thousandth of an inch large.."

If you mean the handgun FCD should be larger for lead bullets I think you misunderstand. The carbide post-sizer ring is made to keep the diameter of a loaded round to the maximum SAAMI ammo spec. It matters not if the bullet is jacketed or lead, the finished round must fit in a SAAMI standard chamber and that's all the FCD die insures. If the loaded round is within normal specs the sizer ring does nothing.

[Jech]

That's not what I'm referring to at all actually. I mean the crimping portion of the die: a fairly common complaint is that the Lee FCD swages boolits down by .001-.002" when applying different levels of factory-style crimp. It seems to me that it either crimps down "too-hard" for boolits or the user is malconfiguring the die.

[Doc Highwall]

Jech, the LEE factory crimp die has to be adjusted just like any die, you can set it wrong or you can set it right. Yes you are right about the factory dies being made for standard maximum SAAMI ammo spec which most of the time uses a jacketed bullet. Cast bullet shooters usually use a bullet that is .001" to .002" larger then the groove diameter of their guns barrel. I started a post under reloading equipment about modifying dies for cast bullet shooting because of this.

[1hole]

"..a fairly common complaint is that the Lee FCD swages boolits down by .001-.002" when applying different levels of factory-style crimp."

Okay, but no crimp affects anything except the small area it actually crimps. How much that area is affected is, as Doc points out, determined by the operator but it's not likely to damage pistol bullets very much even if it's way over done. A "factory style crimp" is just a crimp, no magic in it. The only effective difference in others and Lee's FCD is the post sizing ring.

As you noted, a few thou one way or another often matters. Crimpers - of any brand - are like most of our tools, they require proper adjustment. None of our tools are made so we can blindly slap things together and get an automatic "precision" fit, there are far too many variables in components and chambers to permit that.

[AZ-Stew]

When I first started casting, all my handgun dies were Lee. Now, all my handgun dies are Lyman, and the Lee dies are someone else's headache.

Lyman's expander die -- M die -- actually expands the case mouth, rather than flaring it. In addition, it adds a small step that properly aligns the boolit, when seating. For a period of time, I was loading a boolit that was .006" over nominal dimension. The Lyman seater die did not swage it down.

In addition, many of the Lyman die sets come with several boolit seating stems that are designed for different boolit styles. RN, SWC, etc.

Regards,

Stew