An experiment with cast lead 45ACP to be used during IDPA matches

[TripletDad]

Also posted this at ar15.com in the reloading section. But since you guys got me started casting, I though I'd better post it here too.



First thing: I can't shoot, but I have a good time trying. I've been shooting IDPA for a while and just recently started casting my own bullets. So I got wondering how picky do you actually have to be loading cast bullets - given my game has a bonus on speed as long as accuracy is 'good enough.' So I decided to try some deliberately hosed up bullets to see what happens.

I shoot a Glock 21SF, mixed range brass, 8.0gr AA#5, Winchester primers, 200gr truncated bullet from a Lee double cavity mold and a LWD barrel. I had LWD ream the chamber of their match barrel to be a tad larger than a military 1911a1. I don't want feed issues and I'm not worried about bullseye accuracy with this weapon, it is for combat. The pistol has Glock factory sights but I have replaced the standard connector with the 3-1/2 pound version. The targets were shot at 25 yards with a bag under the muzzle, but the grip not supported, so there is still lots of shooter error involved. I started with a clean barrel and did NOT clean during the test. I also did not know what load I was shooting when I shot it. I had a random person at the range hand me a loaded mag from my bag and I inserted it into the weapon without looking. After I shot, I looked at the tape on the mag to document which load it was.

The alloy I use is straight wheel weights, nothing else added. I check to make sure there are no wrinkles and the driving bands are filled out during my first inspection. I look at the bases of the bullets again before I lube them and if I see anything I don't like then, I cull the bullet to be remelted.

These are the bases of the bullets for target number 3. I'd normally cull these because the bases weren't perfect. But I probably load 'em up in the future. BTW, that's lyman orange magic lube you're seeing, not snot or ear wax.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/eightinchfangs/45acptest/DSC02523_cropped.jpg

These are the bases of the bullets for target number 5. They all started out weighing 204.1 grains until I drilled off center holes in them with an 11/64" bit. (3/16ths just seemed a little large) I was wanting to see how a large off center void would effect the target. I really don't think you could actually make a void this big if you tried. The bullets ended up weighing 202.0, 202.3, 200.4, 201.4, 200.9, 201.1, 201.4, 201.2, 199.5 and 201.9 grains. So we're talking about a 2 to 4 grain off center void.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/eightinchfangs/45acptest/DSC02522_cropped.jpg

So here are the targets. It was 54 degrees today, cloudy with a light mist. It's my story and I'm sticking to it that I couldn't see the target well because of the weather. The targets are on 8-1/2"x11" paper - which is also what I used to scale On Target. I had to guess at a few of the bullet holes. If I had a new piece of backing cardboard this afternoon, I would have replaced the old one. The one I used already had quite a few holes in it.

Target 1: 10 shots, bullet weights 203.0 to 204.8grains in 0.2grain increments. I.e. 203.0, 203.2, 203.4, ... 204.6, 204.8.
Target 2: 10 shots, 5 bullets in a 202 grain range and 5 bullets in a 206 grain range.
Target 3: 10 random base rejects as shown in the above pic. Didn't weigh them because they were already lubed.
Target 4: 10 bullets all weighing 204.0 grains. This load was to see if it really helped to sort.
Target 5: 10 bullets with random off center voids. See pic above.
Target 6: 10 bullets from a batch that I had loaded the previous month. So these were not weighed.
Target 7: 10 bullets from the same batch I loaded the previous month, but these had failed the max cartridge gauge and were segregated from what I would take to a match. They all chambered and fired without a problem.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/eightinchfangs/45acptest/AllTargets_withNumbers.jpg

Conclusion: A) For my purposes shooting IDPA, I'm wasting my time and effort by weighing bullets and culling bullets because of small blemishes on the bases. B) I'll still continue to remelt anything that looks really bad. C) I need to practice more.

[D Crockett]

I will tell you one thing that will help you some get some mould prep from the bull shop you will not regret it makes the base look so much better than with out it and will last for ever I got some 5 years ago and have not used 1/4 of a bottle yet that was the best money I have ever spent D Crockett

[Doc Highwall]

Wait till you get that mould in a six cavity with the Bull Plate lube then you will really be going to town.

[TCLouis]

"Mixed range brass" is likely to cause as much dispersion as the other things mentioned/tested.

[fredj338]

"Mixed range brass" is likely to cause as much dispersion as the other things mentioned/tested.
I would agree, except for large base voids. Minor wieght diff have oriven to not affect accuracy, at leasat out to 25yds. I onlycheck bases for obvious voids, I only weigh bullet that are going to be fired in hunting guns ro at longer range. Internal voids will show up as 4-5gr wt shifts within a given alloy.

[Bloodman14]

I would definitely sort the brass and retest.

[HammerMTB]

The conclusion I draw from all that is you want the loads you loaded last month. How many of those do you have? :kidding:

I've been thru the same check but with .40 cal boolits, both in my 10MM and 40S&W cals. For speed use as long as they look pretty good it really doesn't matter. Now and then I save my culls and look at them real close. Even most of those would prolly be OK.
So now they get a visual cull only and that is at the pot. I reject less than 1 in a hundred at the lube/load stage. I have gotten my molds and lead temps sorted so I have few problems with bases.
It's nice to see another confirmation of the experiment. Thanks for documenting it! :popcorn:

[Stork]

TripletDad,
My findings come from a bullseye shooters perspective shooting match built 1911's, so take it from there. I have never seriously shot a Glock so cannot speak to their accuracy, but I do have over 40,000 rounds of 45 ACP down the pipes of my match guns.

The un-modified bullets you have pictured are ok for 25 yards with a larger than spec chamber. At 25 yards you can nearly load rocks and they will shoot 10s in a bullseye gun. As you mentioned, for your purposes in IDPA it is a waste of your time culling bullets.

At 50 yards, none of the bullets would have passed. For an acceptable 50 yard lead bullet, the base must be perfect. Nothing else will shoot acceptably.

Its your time and effort, but I won't waste either one sorting brass for 50 yard shooting. If the 1911 (and I know we're talking Glock here, not a match wad gun) is properly built and perfect bullets are used, they will group inside 2" at 50 yards with mixed brass. I've proven it to myself, with extensive Ransom Rest testing, often enough that I no longer bother sorting. I just shoot the brass until it splits and then throw it.

This of course is for my shooting purposes, I am beaten with boring regularity by a few guys that sort and trim their brass. But, the reason they beat me is not because of sorting or trimming, its because they shot better. When I shank a 6 or 7, its because of cranial-rectal inversion, not because I didn't sort or trim.

The only exception I have to my above statement is with Remington or amerc brass. Remington is a couple thousanths thinner than every other brand I've tested so the .468 crimp I normally use with everything else doesn't hold the bullet as tight and I wind up with pressures that are too low. Amerc is so bad I won't let in my house. Other than those two brands I mix everything: Federal, WCC, Win, WCC Match, TZZ, TZZ Match, PMC, Speer, Starline and a few others that don't come to mind.

FWIW
Stork

[BouseBill]

Very interesting reading. Thanks guys for taking the time to share this information. I've been sorting and culling for years to shoot the .45 ACP and lately the .40 S&W. The wife and I do mostly SD point shooting out to 25 yards with some bullseye throw in for good measure.

Bill

[noylj]

Very good way to prep your experiment.
The following is just my opinion after shooting for 40 years:
I have almost NEVER found segregating, sorting, or weighing brass has any measurable effect on accuracy out to 30 yards. Waste of time. Less than half the time, my sorted brass in .40S&W shoots better than the mixed brass shoots.
Case sorting can have an effect out at 50 yards and beyond, if you have a gun capable of 1.5" or less at 50 yards.
Yaw is not a big effect until you have gone past 30 yards.
As long as the base of the cast bullet can make a seal (no knicks or voids at the circumference), accuracy will be OK for all but the most precise shooting.
Most people spend too much time making their reloads perfect and would better spend their time dry-firing and at the range. Most accuracy is based on trigger control and not the sights or the load.

[mpmarty]

I don't sort and am not overly picky about what I will stuff into the mouth of a case. I recently found that my 170gr LEE TC boolits while staying in a couple of inches at fifty yards if I do my part, are punching through the paper sideways!! I plan to back up to a slower powder and reduce the velocity a bit and see if that helps. The pistol is quite capable of match accuracy well beyond fifty yards as I shoot six inch plates with it at a hundred yards regularly with no problems using max loads of AA9 and 200gr jacketed hollow points.

[Doc Highwall]

TripletDad, I think most of your bullet problems will be solved by your casting technique. Make sure you have clean alloy and you know the temperature of it when casting by either using a thermocouple or a thermometer. Use a hot plate to heat the mould up and make sure the mould is clean and use the Bull Plate lube. Last I do not know if you are using a ladle or a bottom pour but again pay attention to your technique right down to how long you let the sprue harden before you cut it and look at the bases of the bullets before you open the mould as this can cause tearing of the bases of the bullets.

[casterofboolits]

+1 for what Doc Highwall said. Casting tehnique will help improve the bases of your boolits. A large, thick sprue will help with base fill out.