Cleaning a barrel . . . ??? [Archive]

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Three-Fifty-Seven

10-02-2010, 10:25 AM

Echo

10-02-2010, 10:53 AM

If I knew what I was talking about, I would say 'poor barrel'. Looks like rust pitting, or maybe chatter marks (I don't think so), but the grooves look funky. I have no experience w/firelapping - if I did, I might recommend it. I'm sure others, with more experience than I, will chime in...

waksupi

10-02-2010, 11:00 AM

You have a lot of copper in the grooves yet. The bore itself looks ok, just hasn't been shot in yet. The grooves are about as rough as any other production barrel. I would probably lap this barrel, if you are going to shoot cast in it all the time.

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-02-2010, 11:08 AM

Here is another picture!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Bore6.jpg

I can lap it, sure beats rust!

I bought it used off gunbroker, and I have only shot cast through it, all I ever plan too!

Archey

10-02-2010, 11:19 AM

Looks pretty good to me. Keep shooting it, it will get better.

BTW, from your last picture, it looks like the crown has some damage from a cleaning rod at about the 6 o'clock position.

HeavyMetal

10-02-2010, 11:22 AM

A good sample of a production barrel!

Fire lapping step number one, lots of tooling marks still to be seen in this one.

Is that a "dink" in the crown at the 5:00 O'clock position? Might want to re crown this barrel if it is.

Pending funds you may want to search out a local gunsmith with bore inspection tools and have a real close look at the full length of the barrel before you lap it. It may have an issue deeper down than you can see from the muzzle.

If that was an issue you may want to look arond for an Octagon Ballard cut barrel as a replacement rather than waste time on a marginal Micro barrel.

I would contact gun parts and explain what I wanted and see if they might have a barrel that meets my needs.

That Little Marlin might look pretty good with an Octagon barrel on it.

Just tossing out a few ideas for you to think about.

82nd airborne

10-02-2010, 05:29 PM

Good photography Shawn, Ive never been able to get good pics of a bore. Props to you.

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-02-2010, 06:03 PM

I'm not sure if that is a ding in the crown or not . . . here are some more pictures, what do you think? (My eyes don't see up close good!)
First three inside with flash:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown3.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown1.jpg

Then outside without a flash, but in the sun:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown4.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown5.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown6.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown7.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown8.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown9.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Crown10.jpg

I'm not sure if there is a problem or not with the crown, I can't feel anything there.

I have only cleaned it three times since I got it . . . and I always pull the bolt so I can look through it . . .

Changeling

10-02-2010, 06:08 PM

Howdy all!

I got this Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag this summer, and ran a patch thru it, slugged it at .4295" and started shooting it . . . it has the micro bore . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin189444MagNew2.jpg

Shot mostly Special loads in it . . . yesterday I upped the powder to mag loads and started getting leading . . . so I stopped and wiped the lead out with some copper chore boy (actually half of it came out on the first patch!) but it still looked dirty down in the grooves . . . I scrubbed some more, used Ed's Red, and Hoppes 9 . . . still didn't look right, so I get my camera out and start taking pictures, and this is what I found:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Copper2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Copper1.jpg

So it looks like copper to me . . . so I get out my bottle of M-Pro Copper Remover . . . after three applications, it still looks dirty!

I let it soak over night with a light coat of the M-Pro in it, then put a heavy patch of it through, and let it sit 10 min, and scrub, and scrub with a brush wrapped in Chore Boy, then a patch with Ed's Red, then a few patches till they stop coming out dirty . . .
Still looks dirty to me!

I took it out into the sun to try to get a good picture of the bore for you, sorry these are the best of about 100!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Bore5.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Bore4.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Bore3.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Bore2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Bore.jpg

So . . . do you think it is dirty? or just a poor barrel? or both, or something different?

[smilie=s:

First off I don't know anything about Lever action rifles, because I don't particularly care for them, just a personnel thing. I surely don't belittle anyone for there affinity for them whatsoever.
However I do know a little about barrels.

I just looked up the twist rate on that rifle, it's 1 in 38! For a 44 caliber rifle/revolver that is ridiculous, I doubt seriously if you will ever find a decent bullet/load that is truly accurate short of a miracle. Why the manufacturer chose that twist rate would really be something to hear, LOL!

To make matters worse that barrel has SEVERE tool marks/rust/ and whatever you haven't found yet. You could firelap it, some seem to think thats an answer to barrel problems, I'm just not one of them! Howver you would still be stuck with that stupid twist rate!
Someone said it is an example of a factory barrel, I sure as heck hope not if you guys like that model .

If one really likes that particular rifle and I mean a lot, I would look into a semi custom barrel or even a custom barrel if you have the extra change, with a "TIGHTER TWIST RATE"! That and a great trigger job will transport you into a realm of accuracy that others only write or dream about!!!

I don't believe in sugar coating things and costing someone money/time/effort to little or no avail. I definitely respect you Diesel that is why I have told you the truth!

Now I'm sure the bashing will start and the "Testimonials" about the awesome accuracy there 1 in 38 twist Marlin gives with all bullets:bigsmyl2:

Blammer

10-02-2010, 06:11 PM

I think it looks good all around, no leading left in brl, crown looks good. I'd load up a bunch and shoot it! :)

onondaga

10-02-2010, 06:24 PM

I see the crown ding at 5:00 also. Rough machining on the bore is not horrible. . Don't cringe but after a lot of shooting that will get smoother. You can also push it along. I have succeeded pretty cheaply doing that in a similar case using inexpensive chrome polish that is designed to polish out light scratches. Here is how I do it. When at the range I use a Hoppe's Bore snake every 5 rounds and then take several passes with it when done shooting. Later at home I put a thick patch made from sweat pants in a slotted brass cleaning rod tip onto my cleaning rod. I literally dip the patch in the shaken up chrome polish and just slop it into the bore and take 40 passes. I when done with that I blast the polishing gunk slop off with WD-40 and wipe. Then I take 5 more thick patches passes and dry swab the barrel with 10 strokes each. The last step is 5 passes with a thick patch soaked in Hoppe's Elete Gel and dry patch till dry. This abrasive cleaning with chrome polish and shooting will get your bore where you want it after about 5 trips to the range and an equal amount of the special abrasive cleaning sessions I described. Sweatpants patches for .30 Cal should be about 1.5 inches square and be light to medium snug in the bore. Put them in the slotted patch holder so the fluffy side is out and contacts the bore in use. I do a reduced version of this method to remove lead. I have a couple of NEF rifles that came with rough barrels and now they are as smooth as Colt Sauer Rifle. I only shoot lead bullets in all my rifles.

If you have lead fouling over copper fouling or the reverse that is the bigger problem to remedy but the abrasive cleaning routine will take care of the problem you have now. However doing that repeatedly will harm the barrel too. So, get the copper out before you use lead bullets or get the lead out before you use copper. It is really best to stay with one or the other exclusively.

waksupi

10-02-2010, 06:43 PM

THOSE aren't nicks in the crown. THESE are nicks in a crown.

mroliver77

10-02-2010, 07:26 PM

The close up pics sometimes tend to make things look worse than they are. There are tool marks for sure but I have seen worse. I would make sure there is no more copper in there and then fit a cast boolit and go to shooting it. See what accuracy you get and if it leads. Usually a poor barrel will shoot lead ok at lower velocities. If it does not perform up to snuff read up on the "proper" way to fire lap and give it a try. Just remember that FIT is the alpha and omega in cast shooting!
Jay

RayinNH

10-02-2010, 09:18 PM

That light copper color, is it from the chore boy? Try some 0000 steel wool...Ray

lwknight

10-02-2010, 09:20 PM

Shoot about a 1000 paper patched boolits through it.
It'll be sliiiick!

RayinNH

10-02-2010, 09:25 PM

Shoot about a 1000 paper patched boolits through it.
It'll be sliiiick!

Use 800 grit paper for this:kidding:

Firebricker

10-02-2010, 10:14 PM

What kind of accuracy are you getting out of it ? All in all it's a good lookin rifle I love Marlin's with the straight stock's. FB

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-02-2010, 10:26 PM

Not real good . . . 10 in 4"-5" from 50 yards rested . . . of course part of the problem I think is that my Williams peep is missing the aperture . . ., and my eyes like scopes better . . .

I also have not worked up a load for it yet . . .

Now Changling has me worried . . . what weight, and how fast should I expect out of this barrel . . .

My original goal was to get a load for my 2.5" Alaskan running about 1000 - 1100 fps, and using those same loads in the Marlin with the 20" barrel should add 300+ fps I'm guessing . . .

Trifocals

10-02-2010, 11:19 PM

Hmmmm! First thing....you may or may not have a TINY crown ding. It sure wouldn't hurt to lightly lap the crown. I am quite sure there are tooling/chatter marks in the grooves. The lands look great. The tooling/chatter marks do not appear severe. I don't know if Marlin uses a cutter or a button to rifle their barrels. My first guess would be a cutter. Next, stop using copper chore boys in the barrel. Get yourself a can of "FOUL OUT" and follow the directions. It shouldn't take more than 3-4 applications to get rid of the "crud". Next step.... saturate a TIGHT fitting patch with "JB" bore paste and run it back and forth the full length of the bore about 100 times (you may have to change patches several times). What you are trying to accomplish is to polish off the sharp tops of the tooling/chatter marks. Finish by a thorough cleaning with "Ed's Red". The end result is a lead boolit will slide over the tooling/chatter marks without snagging an tearing lead from the boolit. Marlins are known to have slightly oversize barrel dimensions. Experiment with larger diameter cast boolits. Don't worry about the slow rifling twist. It works just fine. I have gotten the best accuracy from my Marlin 1894 .44 mag using 4227 powder. Enjoy your little rifle. Mine has "made meat" for me many times. [smilie=l:

TCLouis

10-02-2010, 11:27 PM

Even with the rough barrel there are possibilities.

First using the aperture sight as a ghost ring sight has an impact on group size. Get the small aperture and then see what happens.

Paper patching may wear it smooth I have NO experience with it, but one always needs practice and a few hundred (minimum) PP boolits sans gas check may be the ticket.

Some variation of firelapping might just help also.

Shoot it a lot more before you start to get concerned about accuracy potential.

Plenty of time to panic later.

44man

10-03-2010, 08:43 AM

Well, it took me four years to get "minute of deer" at 100 yards with the stupid twist. I priced a new barrel and it is a LOT cheaper to trade the gun for a Marlin 45-70 GG.
The .44 needs to be shot FAST but the small case has little chance of using the pressure needed.
I am shooting a 285 gr boolit with 23 gr of 296 and it will be too fast for deer so I need to make a two part boolit. A hard boolit at rifle velocities, even a WFN, will poke pencil holes through deer if shot behind the shoulder. You need to shoot them in the shoulders with a hard boolit. I seen too many lungs come out intact. I have lost several deer with hard boolits going too fast. Soft boolits just strip at the speed.
Micro groove will shoot better then the "Ballard." Ballard is still only .003" deep in the Marlin and has less bite on lead.

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-03-2010, 09:29 AM

Hmmm . . . I was shooting what I call "special" loads in it, which were 6-7 gr trailboss, or 7-8.5 gr Unique . . . there was no leading, I was using Emmerts for lube, I had just run out so I stuck a stick of the RCBS lube in, so it was mixed . . . I started out shooting at 50 yards some 6.0 gr trail boss, then went to 8.0 Unique, still about 5" group for ten shots, then I went to 12.0 gr Unique and they started to open up (like 12"!) I then tried 16 gr Blue Dot only got the first shot in 15", the rest were flying high, low, right, left . . . thats when I pulled the bolt, and saw the leading! Started about 1/3 of the way up the barrel.

Surprisingly 12 gr Unique, 16 gr BlueDot, and 19 gr 2400 all are VERY close to the same volume!

Here is what I'm thinking . . . with the copper in it - that did not help! I was pushing these plain base boolits too fast, or the lube couldn't handle it.

I went yesterday, and cast up 40 soft lead boolits loobed and sized them to .4328" took 30 of them and rolled them between two steel plates of 600 grit lapping compound from Brownells, and the other 10 I rolled in 1000 grit . . . I then loaded them up with 2.7gr bulleye, and shot them.

To my eye (which ain't real good) it looks like I smoothed it up a tad, but not all the way . . . when the sun comes up, I should be able to get better pictures, just something about natural light, it sure is hard to get pictures in a barrel!

ETA:
Well there was no copper left in it . . . and I don't have any copper . . .

I got a few pictures, first is from the chamber:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Chamber.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Muzzle3.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Muzzle4.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Muzzle5.jpg

I'm gonna load up a bunch of "special" loads and go shoot it this afternoon . . .

Char-Gar

10-03-2010, 01:47 PM

Lots of pics, but no targets. It is how close the bullet land to each other than count..

MT Gianni

10-03-2010, 02:41 PM

Lots of pics, but no targets. It is how close the bullet land to each other than count..

This deserves to be re-quoted.

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-03-2010, 03:44 PM

I'm eating lunch now, and then gonna load up a hundred, (already de-primed and sized) and will bring you back the results . . . :Fire:

But until then . . . this was from the first day at 25 yards kneeling:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin4425yrdtarget.jpg

MT Gianni

10-03-2010, 08:01 PM

Thanks Shawn. Now we know your baseline. Improvement is possible.

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-03-2010, 09:14 PM

So I loaded up 100 rounds, 50 with 7.2gr Unique, and 50 with 11.0gr BlueDot, I used mostly H&G 503 copy with pent hp, and some 434640 solids, lubed with RCBS lube.

I decided to go out even though the clouds were coming in, and threating rain, and I could hear the thunder in the distance . . . I had re-adjusted my rear site, as before when things were going screwy, I had "played with it" I put it back to where I though I had it . . .

First target I used to site in, shoot a few, adj . . . all target shot from 50 yards with one bag on top of my car:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin1894.jpg

Not sure what happened here . . . four shots missed the 15" square trap I was shooting into, and kicked up dust!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin2.jpg

Well at least I could see where they all went!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin3.jpg

It started to rain, but . . . I already had the gun loaded, and the target up, so I shot anyways . . . seems to be missing one . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin4.jpg

I hid out in my car for awhile, then decided that, I had better packed it up, because out here in the desert there are patches of clay, and it gets real slick when it rains, and my Mercedes Benz really is a road car:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Mercedes%20Benz/82%20240D/82240D020.jpg

But I take it where I need to go, as I don't like to carry my 90+ pound target trap filled with shredded rubber!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Mercedes%20Benz/82%20240D/82MBAtStrongholdRanchs.jpg

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-03-2010, 09:24 PM

I got the car loaded up, and started out the goat trail that leads to the gravel road, and then it stopped raining! So . . . I decided to go back!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin5.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin6.jpg

One flyer on the right:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin7.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin8.jpg

And then it started to spit rain again . . . so I decided since I did not have a target yet for my postal match that was ending today, that I would do it NOW, it is off hand at 50 yards iron sights . . . I took one shot, and the wind was buffeting me so bad that I could not keep the bead on the trap! So I went back to the bag on the roof, and shot these last nine in about 25 mph wind!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin9.jpg

But . . . no leading!

I think my problem before was I was pushing plain base boolits too fast, and or they ran out of loob! And the cooper lining sure helped the lead to stick . . . as long as I shoot this velocity I should not have any more problems, and getting an aperture should tighten up the groups!

Thanks for putting up with me, and helping me get this going!

I smell the meatloaf in the oven, must be about done . . .

Bret4207

10-04-2010, 06:25 AM

I think your barrel is okay, it'll get better. On your targets, either the paper is tearing or you have some tipping. Try drying the paper is an oven.

JFrench

10-04-2010, 06:58 AM

Wow, all those barrel shots made me dizzy. It looks clean to me and it is obviously not a premium grade barrel. It should smooth up with continued use.
James

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-04-2010, 08:41 AM

Bret,

It is just computer paper, and the cardboard on the front of trap is pretty tore up . . . after 250 rounds into it! (So it does not have much support)

I think it will work out, gonna call Williams today . . .

Three-Fifty-Seven

10-23-2010, 10:47 PM

I ordered from Williams the apertures . . . one a 3/8" OD with .093" center in the twilight series, and another one 1/2" OD with a .050" center . . . but they messed up and sent me both with .093" centers, So I loaded up another 100 for it two different boolits (H&G 503 & 434640 Solid) with five different powder charges . . . this was the best I could do:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/Marlin4346402-1.jpg

I called them (Williams) and they sent me out the 1/2" OD with .050" center . . . I got it, and loaded up some more with some different powders . . . I went out this afternoon, and shot this in the wind:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Marlin%201894/434640Solid2348in.jpg

I think the wind may have caused the two groups, but not sure, still think I could do better, but I only loaded up 10 rounds of this combination, and this is what I ended up with . . . I'll certainly try it again! 10gr was a lot worse!