Bullet Lube & Accuracy

[Jerry11826]

I thought bullet lube was to prevent barrel leading. A leaded barrel obviouly will effect accuracy, but as long as the lube prevents leading, I don't see how it could effect accuracy.

And yet, many posters talk about how type "A" lube is more accurate than type "B"

Am I missing something?

Thanks,

Jerry

[BABore]

Barrel leading is easily overcome through proper boolit fit and alloy. If these conditions are met, even a very poor lube will work. Increase bbl length, velocity, and pressure, then things change. You may need a better quality lube. It is typical to see barrel leading at the throat and forward a few inches if the boolit fit and alloy are off. This can rapidly progress down the entire bbl. When a lube fails, you will typically see leading start near the muzzle. This is usually from lack of lube quality or lack of lube capacity on the boolit. Sometimes a higher quality lube will remedy a capacity problem. Then you can go to the other extreme and have a boolit with lots of lube capacity and you use a very slick, high-end lube. This situation may work out fine in a 4-10" wheelgun bbl, but problems can arise in rifle length bbls. Too much of a good thing can throw fylers due to lube purging in rifles. The excess lube fouls the bbl and the next boolit pushes it out causing a flyer. This type of problem also shows up on the first cold bore shot following prior shooting of the lube. When the bbl is hot, you may not see any problems. When it cools down, the excess lube congeals and hardens in the bbl. The first shot has to overcome it and push it out.

Different lubes also have different hardnesses and viscosities. They affect how the lube stick to, and stays on a boolit after sizing and lubing. They also affect how they come off a boolit. Some very hard, commercial lubes may partially fall off during shipment or when your handling them. Missing lube will throw out the boolits center of gravity. Sometimes it only partially comes off during flight. Again, throwing the boolit out of balance.

So, yes lube is more than just a leading reducer. A lube is no different than a powder, boolit, or primer choice. It is a variable that affects accuracy. Lube demands change from pistol to rifle, velocity, boolit, pressure, etc. to name a few. Once you establish a good solid load, experiment with different lubes and shoot several groups for accuracy. Be aware, that when you start with a clean bbl., it may take from 5 to 30 rounds before the bbl settles in with it. When you change to another lube, it will take a few rounds there as well. Usually less than 5 though. One of the final things about lubes that will bite you is ambient temperature. Lube properties change when you go from 35 to 90 F.

[btroj]

So lube purging may be why I see a reduction in accuracy in cold weather in my rifles with carnuba red in colder temps until the barrel warms up?
Intersting. I knew what was happening but not why.

Not that this info will change the way I do things bit it is nice to understand what is going on. The difference is not that great, certainly not enough to be a problem in a hunting situation.

Brad

[fryboy]

i once made some umm... flux that i attempted to lube boolits with ...it worked as far as the bore leading was concerned but a known load opened up on me , a load that actually does decent with a couple of commercial lubes ( lyman moly and rooster hvr ) my 1.5-2 groups went to 8" ummm patterns , best i can figure is it was kinda slick , i've learned alot since then ( thanx guys !! ) including that bad lube makes great flux :-P

[geargnasher]

Barrel leading is easily overcome through proper boolit fit and alloy. If these conditions are met, even a very poor lube will work. Increase bbl length, velocity, and pressure, then things change. You may need a better quality lube. It is typical to see barrel leading at the throat and forward a few inches if the boolit fit and alloy are off. This can rapidly progress down the entire bbl. When a lube fails, you will typically see leading start near the muzzle. This is usually from lack of lube quality or lack of lube capacity on the boolit. Sometimes a higher quality lube will remedy a capacity problem. Then you can go to the other extreme and have a boolit with lots of lube capacity and you use a very slick, high-end lube. This situation may work out fine in a 4-10" wheelgun bbl, but problems can arise in rifle length bbls. Too much of a good thing can throw fylers due to lube purging in rifles. The excess lube fouls the bbl and the next boolit pushes it out causing a flyer. This type of problem also shows up on the first cold bore shot following prior shooting of the lube. When the bbl is hot, you may not see any problems. When it cools down, the excess lube congeals and hardens in the bbl. The first shot has to overcome it and push it out.

Different lubes also have different hardnesses and viscosities. They affect how the lube stick to, and stays on a boolit after sizing and lubing. They also affect how they come off a boolit. Some very hard, commercial lubes may partially fall off during shipment or when your handling them. Missing lube will throw out the boolits center of gravity. Sometimes it only partially comes off during flight. Again, throwing the boolit out of balance.

So, yes lube is more than just a leading reducer. A lube is no different than a powder, boolit, or primer choice. It is a variable that affects accuracy. Lube demands change from pistol to rifle, velocity, boolit, pressure, etc. to name a few. Once you establish a good solid load, experiment with different lubes and shoot several groups for accuracy. Be aware, that when you start with a clean bbl., it may take from 5 to 30 rounds before the bbl settles in with it. When you change to another lube, it will take a few rounds there as well. Usually less than 5 though. One of the final things about lubes that will bite you is ambient temperature. Lube properties change when you go from 35 to 90 F.

That was so well said I had to post it again!

In the high end of rifle shooting, slight adjustments to the amount or viscocity of the actual lubricating oils in the carrier can make a huge difference in group sizes, as well as the addition or reduction of one groove-full. Lube must be balanced to the exact condition of use for the best results, same as powder or alloy as said above. Sometimes, when stepping up velocity incrementally, lube must be altered slightly every 2-300 fps to keep accuracy going. In most pistol shooting you'll never know much difference as long as the lube is sufficient to prevent leading and leave a consistent residue through a long string.

Gear

[Jerry11826]

Thanks for the replies - I guess we agree in some ways. My only point of reference is light pistol loads, less than 1,000 fps. At less that 1,000 fps, it doesn't make any difference what you use to lube bullets, as long as it prevents leading and doesn't contaminate the powder.

Thanks again, thought I was missing something.

Jerry

[Recluse]

Thanks for the replies - I guess we agree in some ways. My only point of reference is light pistol loads, less than 1,000 fps. At less that 1,000 fps, it doesn't make any difference what you use to lube bullets, as long as it prevents leading and doesn't contaminate the powder.

Thanks again, thought I was missing something.

Jerry

Well, I gotta disagree with that.

A pretty good while back, I made up some lube that I was positive would be the cat's meow of all stick lubes. It had some synthetic stuff in it, after all, and I was convinced that was as good as it got.

Put it in the lubesizer and lubed some 148 gr .358WC and some .452SWC. Loaded them with my standard Bullseye loads, took them to the range to shoot in the same guns that give me one ragged hole at 50 feet.

Imagine my surprise when I couldn't even keep some of the shots on the paper? [smilie=b:

First thing I did when I got back home was went crying to Felix. Told him what I'd put in the lube, how I'd mixed it, etc etc. He explained about viscosity and how it affects boolit accuracy, and how your ingredients affect viscosity.

I can't explain it here--I do not have the chemical/engineering background. But I know how to do it. I tossed that lube, and went back to my tried and true lube. Cleaned all the old stuff out of the barrells, lubed new boolits, loaded, shot, and right back to one ragged hole.

Both loads, by the way, were well under 1000fps.

:coffee:

[cbrick]

Gotta agree with Recluse, I did a lot of lube testing a few years back using a mid range load in my 308. The first thing I learned was that making a lube that prevents leading is pretty easy, every single lube recipe I made prevented leading but the bullet fit the rifle correctly. Every one gave a different level of accuracy and the worst by far were the lubes that contained anything synthetic. The tests went from decent 150m groups to couldn't hit the target at 150m with the synthetic lubes.

Pretty surprising, like Recluse I had high hopes for the synthetics.

Rick

[Eutectic]

Well, I gotta disagree with that.


Me too......

While we refer to our 'goop' as a lubricant, and in fact ONE of its functions is in fact; there's much more to the picture.
Some synthetics may in fact be too good in our lubricant! Other petroleum products as well. Maybe even other additions we are putting in the soup...

I had a decently accurate .22 Long Rifle load for small game. The bullet was plated (not that plating was any problem....) Boy, they seemed awful 'dry' of any lubrication at all to me. I though a little extra would sure help them! So I applied a thin coat of thinned Lee Liquid Alox... The first group was very nice! I smiled! The second five shots had a flier.... The third five shots were all flyers!!!!!! Don't get me wrong... I lube with the thinned Alox; even add it to nose sections in what I call a 'duplex' lube with great results at times. But the mild .22 chewed on it some... and then spit it out!

Something that doesn't get talked about enough here IMHO is bore condition. I am speaking of bore condition after our cast boolit is launched down it, then the next one and the next....
To me, having a repeatable bore condition from shot to shot as long as possible without cleaning is one of the big secrets of cast boolit accuracy.
Some things help achieving this; some things don't! So too good a lubricant (even if it might be the very best lube there is in the finals of a D-10 Cat) may give lousy repeatability.. in our secret formula. Viscosity plays a major role. We worry about our lube being too sticky... we need hard! We should be worrying about what the bore and accuracy like the best. Some of my very best groups in the past were using the old discontinued Winchester 'Super Grex' as a filler... I believe even more importantly that powder position uniformity was what seemed like a 'bore conditioning' by the Grex from shot to shot to stabilize that elusive bore condition repeatability shot after shot after shot... A high velocity gaschecked rifle load may like one set of rules; a slow mellow rifle load another; then handguns something else!
If anyone has these 'lube' attributes please post...even if it is a long one!


Eutectic

[cajun shooter]

What takes some people a life time to learn is that every thing that we put in our lubes and each component of every round will make a difference. Primers will make huge jumps in pressure and group size. The what I use information should only be used by someone to try and start out. Each person is different in the way they shoot to test rounds. How they use information given to them. Are they very down to the point or that will do type people. I just saw a thread that was up to 3 pages and the question was What powders do you use in your guns. You can't use the information that is given as the amount of variables is huge.

[geargnasher]

I agree, CS. One thing I've learned here is that most people never really get into the nitty-gritty of what makes things work. They just want a formula that works, and don't want to understand how or why it works. Or it turns into an argument based on different individual experiences and results.

I maintain that one needs at least a cursory understanding of metallurgy, internal ballistics, and lube properties to achieve continued success with cast boolits due to the fact that conditions constantly change. If you don't understand what's going on, it's hard to make effective corrections.

It would be nice to have the concise guide to boolit lube properties, but I think a quick study of MML and FWFL will give you a pretty good idea of what makes a good lube work. Go read the Castpics archives and you'll get an even better understanding.

Gear

[fredj338]

Thanks for the replies - I guess we agree in some ways. My only point of reference is light pistol loads, less than 1,000 fps. At less that 1,000 fps, it doesn't make any difference what you use to lube bullets, as long as it prevents leading and doesn't contaminate the powder.

Thanks again, thought I was missing something.

Jerry

I have to agree w/ Recluse, it can matter, a lot in some guns. Every gun/load is diff. IF you are capable of holding sub 2" groups at 25yds, then you can see the affects of diff bullet lubes, like changing powders or even primers, it can matter.

[Jerry11826]

October 11, 2010

Hi Fred!

You are probably correct. Many participants in this thread believe the type of lube makes a difference. I don’t believe this is true, if the lube prevents or reduces leading.

Tomorrow, I am going to determine if it is true, for me.

I have always used “Star” tools to size and lubricate bullets. I want something that is as good or better. And, hopefully faster and less expensive.

“Star” tools are great, but ghastly expensive. I have three! The last die I bought was about $50.00. I purchased it from “Magma Engineerig” To be fair, the price included “shipping and handling”.

I am trying “XLOX”, diluted 50/50 with mineral spirits. The bullets are lubed and sized with a “Lee 358" die. then “re-lubed” after sizing. The barrel, of the ‘Ruger GP 100 “ has been cleaned with a “Lewis” lead remover. There is no lead in the barrel!

The load is a Lee cast 38 special, 150 grn round nose on top of 2.8 grns. of Alliant Bullseye. I plan to shoot 150 rounds, go home and run the lead remover through the barrel and determine if the “Lee” lube / size system produces the same results as the “Star” tool.

I hope it works, as I need the money via selling my “Star tools”.

Thanks for your post,

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

Life is complicated enough deal with people without turning bullet lube into some sort of rocket science. IMHO there are two kinds of lube, those that work and those that don't work. I have used all sorts of lubes and have never found one that works to be better than another that works.

By works I mean doing what a lube is supposed to do in keeping the fire off the sides of the bullet and providing enough stuff to last the bullet it's trip down the barrel.

I can load cast bullets in rifles that will deliver all the accuracy the individual rifle has to give. I can load cast bullet in handguns, that can hit the X-ring every time. Of course, the shooter has to be up to it, and there is the matter of proper bullet fit, proper bullet temper, proper bullet design, proper powder and etc. etc. etc.

It there is some mystery or magical bullet lube out there that causes a bullet to be more accurate than the other host of good lubes I have never found it and I have tried several dozen including some who were supposed to be the answer to a cast bullet shooters prayer.

Flame away you techies!

In the matter of disclosure I use two lubes

1. The first is beeswax with enough Vaseline to soften it so it works in a lube sizer machine. This is good for all handgun loads and rifle loads up to 2K fps.

Yea..yea.. I know there are all kinds of theories why this doesn't work and Vaseline has morphed over time. The problem is that is does work and has worked for me for over 50 years now. I just can't get around those bullet holes in the targets that are overlapping or right next to each other. Theories and tech talk be damned.

2. If I want to go about 1.9 or 2K fps, the Felix lube is the way to go.

[Von Gruff]

1. The first is beeswax with enough Vaseline to soften it so it works in a lube sizer machine. This is good for all handgun loads and rifle loads up to 2K fps.


Those were the ingredients that were given me to use as lube when I started casting about 15 years ago. 2/3 bees wax with 1/3 vaseline has been my only lube for the 44 mag pistol velocities through to 2415fps from my 7mm rifle.
Bought a 5 kg block of bees wax and that will continue to make my lube for the forseeable future. See all the lubes with multiple and exotic components but as I get satisfactory hunting accuracy from my loads, I see no need to change or experiment.

Von Gruff.

[Char-Gar]

Von Gruff... Those porportions sound about right, but a little slip and slide either way won't change anything.

You prove another point. Yesterday over morning coffee, my wife and I were talking about places we would like to go. I mentioned New Zealand. She asked why, and my reply was I have never met a New Zealander I didn't like. I am certain you guys have your share, but idiots and jerks, but I have not met them. Now I have know a few Aussies I didn't like!

[geargnasher]

October 11, 2010

Hi Fred!

You are probably correct. Many participants in this thread believe the type of lube makes a difference. I don’t believe this is true, if the lube prevents or reduces leading.

Tomorrow, I am going to determine if it is true, for me.

I have always used “Star” tools to size and lubricate bullets. I want something that is as good or better. And, hopefully faster and less expensive.

“Star” tools are great, but ghastly expensive. I have three! The last die I bought was about $50.00. I purchased it from “Magma Engineerig” To be fair, the price included “shipping and handling”.

I am trying “XLOX”, diluted 50/50 with mineral spirits. The bullets are lubed and sized with a “Lee 358" die. then “re-lubed” after sizing. The barrel, of the ‘Ruger GP 100 “ has been cleaned with a “Lewis” lead remover. There is no lead in the barrel!

The load is a Lee cast 38 special, 150 grn round nose on top of 2.8 grns. of Alliant Bullseye. I plan to shoot 150 rounds, go home and run the lead remover through the barrel and determine if the “Lee” lube / size system produces the same results as the “Star” tool.

I hope it works, as I need the money via selling my “Star tools”.

Thanks for your post,

Jerry

So have you proven us all wrong yet? The real test is to see if you hit what you aim at with the Mule Snot, leading or otherwise.

Gear

[Jerry11826]

Yep, I did. Glad you asked! Was afraid to post, as sometimes forum members get very upset if you drink a different kind of beer than they do.

I fired 120 rounds on three NRA Bullseye replacement centers. I fired the groups at 25 yards rested off the top of my pistol box. There were 11 that were not within the 10 ring which is a 3 1/4 inch circle. I think the 11 may have been operator error. The X ring on all three targets was obliterated. This was as good as I have ever done with this pistol.

When I got home I swabbed the barrel with patches soaked in Hoppe's #9 solvent. Then I pulled the Lewis Lead remover thru the barrel. Repeated three times. No lead at all on the brass patch.

What can I say! Sure don't want want to make other members angry! But my conclusion is, bullet lube for light pistol loads makes no difference as long as the barrel does not lead.

What did Chargar post , something like "Life is too complicated" to spend your time worring about bullet lube.

Jerry

[fryboy]

ummmm now try that with rifles at 100 yards and 300 yards and ... :kidding:

[geargnasher]

+1 Fryboy. Like I said, most pistol shooting won't show much difference in boolit lube, unless you're a real diehard and like to see what they can do at long range. I'm getting to where I routinely shoot my .357 Mag and .45 Colts out to 50 or even 100 yards in an effort to improve my shooting, you'd be amazed what a little old K-frame .38 special with a 3.5" bbl can do at 50 yards rested! You'd also be amazed by full-wadcutter gymnastics at that range and how bad accuracy can be with inferior lube.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Jerry et al...After almost 12 years on this board and it's predecessors I can say with some authority that no matter what you say or do, there will be others who think you are wrong headed and don't know a barrel muzzle from a key hole.

The bottom line is, inhabitants of this board are not at the range with you nor in your life in general, so their palaver doesn't really mean squat. If what you are doing works for you and gives you what you want than that is all that matters.

There are gems of wisdom on this board and much can be learned from some of it's members. There is also a generous suppy of pride, hot air and BS.

[cbrick]

Well Chargar, when you get right down to it both of these members are in agreement, might as well toss me into the mix as well. They are both saying that lower pressure, short range handgun loads will show little to no difference/preference to lube as long as it prevents leading.

So I am a little confused, which one are you saying is full of hot air and BS?

Rick

[PAT303]

We are a good breed down here Charger,by the way there's no point going to NZ to meet NZer's,most of them have moved over here!!. Pat

[geargnasher]

Yep, I did. Glad you asked! Was afraid to post, as sometimes forum members get very upset if you drink a different kind of beer than they do. That's ridiculous, don't be skeered of a little internet jabbing! I've found in the short time I've been here that very little jabbing goes on here compared to most places, and that most of us understand that what works at my house may not work at yours.

I fired 120 rounds on three NRA Bullseye replacement centers. I fired the groups at 25 yards rested off the top of my pistol box. There were 11 that were not within the 10 ring which is a 3 1/4 inch circle. I think the 11 may have been operator error. The X ring on all three targets was obliterated. This was as good as I have ever done with this pistol.

When I got home I swabbed the barrel with patches soaked in Hoppe's #9 solvent. Then I pulled the Lewis Lead remover thru the barrel. Repeated three times. No lead at all on the brass patch.

What can I say! You can say "I have something that works for me, saves time, and allows me to sell my lubrisizer!"Sure don't want want to make other members angry! Why would anyone be angry that you found something that works for you and you posted it? If it didn't work for me, I'd be wanting to know what you know that I don't so I could improve my own reloading experience. But my conclusion is, bullet lube for light pistol loads makes no difference as long as the barrel does not lead. That is a valid conclusion for your short range test. Please do not imply that your results mean anything at all about how good your lube is at ranges beyond that, and that is the point that I'm trying to make.

What did Chargar post , something like "Life is too complicated" to spend your time worring about bullet lube. It is, unless your lube isn't working for you.

Jerry

My only beef was the absolute and totally general conclusion you draw from a relatively poorly set up and executed test. If you get a chance to come to the Kerrville area sometime, I'd love for you to stop by and I'll take you to the range and show you how a .44 Magnum does with PB Keith SWCs using Felix lube, Lyman Alox, and then again with LLA, and again with Barry Darr lube. We'll shoot at 25 yards, and again at 100. You'll see what I'm talking about when I say it can and does matter about what lube you use.

Gear

[Lloyd Smale]

depends on what your looking for as far as accuracy goes. Some guys that shoot handguns are happy to hit a beer can at 25 yards everytime and to them any lube will work as good as the next. If your looking for one inch 50 yard or even 25 yard groups lubes can make a differnce. I wont go into which i think is best as what ive found is its just like powder primers and bullets. Every situation can seem to make a different one shine. Is it worth all the testing and using differnt lubes for differnt loads in differnt guns? For the most part for me, no. But dont beleive for a second that it doesnt effect accuracy in handguns even at low velocitys and short ranges. It may not make the differnce in hitting that beer can but it can make a 2 inch 25 yard load into a one inch load. Biggest problem for me is a guy can do all that testing and find the lube that works best and if on that day its 80 degrees out and the load is going to be used in hunting season where the temps may be down in the 20s all the work is for not as a completely differnt lube may work the best in the colder temp.

[Jerry11826]

Geargnasher,

I guess your right, maybe I got sidetracked. What I wanted to say, should have said is:

1. A 50/50 mixture of Xlox and mineral spirits is a satisfactory lube for pistol loads of less than 1,000 FPS, at distances up to 50 yards The coating is nearly invisible and not tacky. Nice to handle.

2. I lube before and after sizing. An easy way to do this is to dump bullets into a plastic bucket. Pour the 50/50 mixture into the bucket in an amount sufficient to completely submerge the bullets. Agitate the bucket for a few seconds. Strain the bullets out of the mixture. I use an old deep fry basket and a second plastic bucket. Dump bullets on to an old teflon covered cookie sheet and dry in an oven at about 200 degrees for about 30 minutes.

3. I use the Lee size die to size the bullets. I get the same accuracy compared with the same bullets run through my Star lube / sizer.

4. I find this system is easier and maybe faster than using my Star tools.

Lets end this silly thread. Just wanted other members to be aware there might be an alternative using a lube / sizer, pan or tumble lubeing.

Sorry you had a beef,

Jerry

[bobthenailer]

just my 2 cents, if the load is worked up with a particular bullet lube that is up to the task accuracy will be good.
when i was shooting sillewet years ago with a 357 mag rpm xl pistol, i lubed my bullets with red rooster zambeni red a hard lube . then i switched to lbt commercial also a hard lube , accuracy was the same at 100 yards 2 1/4 inch 25 shot group with either lube with the same load , reloaded on the press at the same time with the same lot of brass , same lot of powder , same lot of primers the only difference was the velocity the lbt averaged 67 fps lower velocity {the lbt lube lubed better creating less chamber pressure like moly coating j bullets] and the bullet shot lower at 100 yards .
i know this is just one case
i also have been useing hard lubes with the first being rr zambeni for about 25 years.
since then ive used thompson , lbt , trueflight lube , and magnma , and recently ricks CR hard lube , all hard lubes with no problems with leading and excellent accuracy in every gun that i have shot cast bullets from and yes my accuracy standards are very high for every gun that i own

[geargnasher]

Bob, I certainly won't sneeze at your 2-1/4", 25 shot string, but I wonder if you have ever tried a softer lube, and what your results were? I live in Texas, and the average temperature difference between here and most places creates a lot of arguments about how stuff works without folks realizing that you shoot when it's 40 degrees and I shoot when it's 102*. I've fired a lot of groups half that size with softer lube, never had much luck with the hard stuff at any kind of distance. I'm also a bit confused by the conclusion you drew from LBT vs. Zambini. If the LBT Hard gave you 67 FPS lower velocity, it seems that had a higher viscocity and more drag, regardless of chamber or barrel pressure. If greater friction creates more pressure, does this make more or less velocity?

Gear

[Von Gruff]

We are a good breed down here Charger,by the way there's no point going to NZ to meet NZer's,most of them have moved over here!!. Pat

We once had a Prime minister who thought that improved the iq of both countries.

I was in AU for about 12 years so couldn't possibly comment either way.

Von Gruff.

[bobthenailer]

the lbt lube did a better job of lubing making less resistance for the bullet going down the barrel, there for less chamber pressure= less velocity.if you ever did any testing with j bullets verses moly j bullets the same is also true the moly j bullets produce a little less velocity than regular j bullets
as for accuracy i also have a rpm xl in 32/20 that will group 25 shots in to a 1 1/4 inches at 100 yards , with scope on sandbag ,with rcbs 165 grgc siellewet boolet, i did not run the test with this one i just used lbt lube.
i would not of done the test in the 357 mag had i not started constianly hitting the target stand instead of the target, i just rased the sights and shot a few more matches that way until there was a break in the matches. to do some testing
as for soft lubes i used them years ago when i had lyman and saeco sizers , but went to hard lubes when i got the stars, i saw no reason to go back to soft lubes as accuracy was excellent and no problem with leading and as a + I store my bullets bulk in containers without worring about the lube comeing off .
as far as group the 357 will shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards but im talking about repetable accuracy, not bragging groups
i hope this will answer your question. bob

[Char-Gar]

"So I am a little confused, which one are you saying is full of hot air and BS?"

Rick

Rick..It has taken me some time to get back to this thread. I was not making reference to any post in particular. It was just some observations on this (and other boards) in general. Hot air, like gold, is where you fine it.

[btroj]

While I will not get into the discussion this thread has turned into I will say this.

I am glad that I am not wrong in my belief that lube/load combinations that work in one enviormental condition may not work well in another. I find carnuba red needs a warm barrel in colder weather. Just my observation and I will make no guess on why this happens. I only care that I know it happens and new to account for it.

I will say that I would be very surprised to ever find one lube that was "the best" in all situations. Like Lloyd said- what is you idea of accuracy for any one situation?

I am satisfied with carnuba red and prefer to live within its limitations as opposed to swapping lugs in my sizer. Maybe it's my laziness but I want shooting to be fun, not work.

Brad

[cajun shooter]

The test that are being run and the postings that follow was the point of my first posting. When you say that you have a lube that works in all pistol loads I will have to disagree. You can't shoot in PA. and say that test is good for Texas or Louisiana or Montana. There are so many variables that it will take days to discuss why this is so. As I said before if you are going to post a lube test then you have to give the conditions, guns used, firing positions, goals of test and if they were achieved. I 'm not being anal but a blanket statement can't be proven. That was what I stated in my other posting. I can't say that if you use this bullet, lube, your targets will have the x-ring missing. That is absurd to even think that way. What you can say is that under my conditions this is what happened. Heck, two different lots of the same powder may blow up your entire test. The wadcutter lube test was done many years ago by whom I have forgot. What the test showed for that test was that many wadcutters were more accurate with less lube and that you did harm by filling all lube grooves. One lube used only required one lube groove to be filled. Test performed by anyone other than yourself is a good starting point to find a answer that will work for what you are looking to accomplish.