No Accuracy from a .250 Savage

[ErikT]

I'm having a problem with my Savage bolt-action in .250-3000, and I was wondering if anyone might have some suggestions. I just fitted a new Shilen barrel (1-10" twist) on this rifle, and I've been getting pretty decent accuracy with J-word bullets (0.75" to 1.5" at 100). I just picked up a new RCBS 120 grain 2-cavity GC mould, and I cast a bunch of really nice looking boolits with it. I fitted the gas checks and sized them to .258" (the bore measures .257," right on spec) before I lubed with my time-proven home recipe.

When I went to test fire them, I wasn't getting any hits on the target at 100, so I moved to the 25. Let's just say I would have gotten better accuracy if I'd have thrown the boolits downrange. The best grouping I got was about 8 inches at 25 yards! Now, I'm no veteran of cast boolit shooting, but I've been getting great results from other cartridges and similar loading practices, so I'm wondering if maybe I missed some fundamental issue that gave me shotgun patterns instead of rifle groupings. The lube worked great; not a sign of leading anywhere. The lead was water dropped WW, so would they be too soft? I was only pushing them between 2100 to 2700 fps for this test, and no velocity gave any decent results. Any ideas?

[felix]

What is the largest diameter of boolit you can seat into the gun, within a neck sized case? ... felix

[GBertolet]

Try loading some at 1600 to 1800 fps range and see how they shoot. You didn't mention what powder you were using in your tests. I would suggest trying some powders of medium to slow burning rates and see what you get.

[TCLouis]

First clean the barrel of all jacketed bullet debris, then let it sit a day or two then clean it again just to get rid of the rest of the jacketed bullet leavings.

THEN

go with what GBertolet said, or possibly even slower yet.

Once you get something in the lower velocity range to be accurate then you can creep up on toward higher velocities, though I doubt you get to the previously stated velocities unless you have really good lube and hard boolits.

Never saw a mention of powder type or amount, what are you using?

[Bret4207]

Traditionally the 250's twist rate doens't permit the use of 120's. Between fit and twist you may not find joy with this combination.

[Dan Cash]

+1 on Bret's comment. You don't indicate the twist rate of your barrel but if it is not 1:9 or 1:10 it won't stabilize cast 120s and may not stabilize jacketed 120gr bullets.

[stocker]

In 257 Roberts A/Imp with 1/10 twist, 120 grain jacketed Hornady H.P.'s show a sharp reduction in accuracy from shorter bullets like the 115 NP. The Hornadys are long for weight bullets. Just can't push them quite fast enough even in the improved Roberts to get great accuracy. A long cast bullet of the same weight at slower speed in the same twist will likely not stabilize as mentioned before. Look for a 100 grain or lower weight mould for your Savage.

[GabbyM]

He does state it's a new Shillen 1-10" twist rate.

Since you say between 2,100 and 2,700 fps. I'd wonder if you are simply running to fast.
Try a laod at 1,900 fps first. Something like 22 grains of 4895.

[Bret4207]

" I was only pushing them between 2100 to 2700 fps for this test, and no velocity gave any decent results. Any ideas? "

WHOA!!! Missed that entirely. I think I see another part of your problem!

[GabbyM]

Reloaders Reference by Wiljen (http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/)

There is a free download data base with plenty of 250 Savage loads.

[82nd airborne]

My favorite caliber. Seriously doubt it will ever work, send it my way and ill take care of it. Trade you straight across for a red ryder. Seriously though, .250 Savages typically love slower powders. I also didnt see what boolit you were using. When you let us know boolit and loads, Ill give you some of the data I have worked up to and you can see if it works for you.

[Char-Gar]

"I was only pushing them between 2100 to 2700 fps for this test, and no velocity gave any decent results. Any ideas? "

Jeeze..No wonder you couldn't hit anything. Slow down..way down!

[Shuz]

Erik--You didn't say what powder you used, but I suggest you try 13 to 14g of 4759 or 5744 with the RCBS 120. As others have said, you are driving them too fast regardless of the powder being used!

[9.3X62AL]

I'll pile on too--slower would be better.

My own 250 Savage experience is with a Savage 99 lever rifle with 1-14" twist rate, so it differs a bit from your bolter. It is a stone TACKDRIVER with 100 grain jacketed spitzers of any make, given enough WW-760 to prompt 2650-2700 FPS from its 24" barrel. It will shoot as well as I can use aperture iron sights at 100 yards, about 1.25"/5 shots.

Slowing things down markedly for the castings, I use an NEI 110 grain spire point bore-rider @ .258" with 12.0-13.0 grains of Alliant 2400, and get similar groups at 100 yards--1.25"-1.50". Velocity is around 1650-1800 FPS.

All the velocity on earth ain't worth a hill of excrement if the boolits don't fly true.

[Pioneer2]

My 99 with 1-14 twist won't stabilize any 100 gr except the shortest [Speer] and the now extinct 100gr KKSP by Dominion [Canada] cloverleafed at 100 yards.[30gr IMR 3031] I'm crankin 41gr Win-760 and 100g Sierra's out of my Rem 700 Classic in .250 1-10"..........Harold

[stocker]

Pioneer2: My 1/14 rifle is like yours. I can shoot 100 Speers and I'm also going to try Remington flat base and see what happens. All other makes are a bust though, rarely making a 5" group. 87 grain Sierras shoot 3/4" groups time after time. Would like to find a tougher constructed 87 grainer though.

[dnepr]

I also have a 1 in 14 250-3000 savage . It shot well with rem factory 100 gr ammo , I have yet to get great results with hornady 100's good to know that speers are the shortest will try them next if the hornady's don't pan out , Anyone know of a good short bullet that will shoot well in the 1 in 14 twist barrels yet still have enough " toughness" to hold together on deer ?

I have been playing around a bit with PP cast 100's in this rifle but with no success , This particular rifle may be the catalyst to start swaging my own bullets , some sort of short 90gr or less partition style bullet comes to mind

[atr]

interesting....my Rem 722 in 257Roberts at 1:10 shoots very well with 87 gr to 120 gr J-s....MOA at 100yds

your 250-3000 with 120 gr cast should stabalize but I agree with the above that your velocity is to high....
If you are looking for close to full power loads for cast then try IMR 4895 or Win 748....
atr

[quilbilly]

A few years back before I started casting I had a Savage 250-3000 Model 99 and it would not shoot anything over 100 grains. Using the 120's, if I hit the target at all at 100, the bullets would often keyhole.
Consequently,I stuck with 100 and 87 gr bullets and they shot very well and made a lot of venison for our freezer.
When that Model 99 became too valuable to take into the field, I sold it and bought a T/C Encore and a Custom Shop barrel in 250-3000 (I do love that caliber). It shoots the 120 bullets very well but I still use 100 grainers.
The problem was the twist in the Model 99 not stabilizing the heavier bullets and that may be true with your Savage bolt action.

[Echo]

Erik, you didn't mention the alloy you are using. It could be that pushing the boolits so hard to get the velocities you got, you overcame the strength of the boolit. There are threads somewhere around here, and the Lee reloading book has a chart.

So.

What alloy are you using?

[GabbyM]

For those 1-14” twist rifles I wouldn't look to far past the Speer Hot Core bullets for a deer hunting.
Speer makes the Hot Core bullet in 75, 87 and 100 grain. They are all flat based and of harder construction than there boat tail bullets. As per there advertising. Speer-bullets dot com.
Before I declared a 100 grain would shoot I'd want to get out to the 500 yard range. Just to make sure it remains stable. Plus test it in at lest as cold a temperature as I'd hunt in. Been a long time since I went to a range in the dead of winter. Nothing wrong with an 87 grain bullet at 3,000 fps on deer.

[Larry Gibson]

EricT

Seems everyone has gotten off on 14" twist rifles which you don't have. For your 10" twist rifle, which should adequately stabilize the 120 gr cast bullet, you definately need to slow the load down. What is killing your accuracy is that velocity, which is too much for that bullet, alloy, etc. The RPM are taking their toll. This is obvious by the poor accuracy, even at 25 yards.

I suggest you slow the bullet down. Try 18 gr of H4895 with a 1/2 gr dacron filler. Work up in 1/2 gr increments until accuracy again goes south. You should find an accurate load in the 1800 - 1950 fps range.

Alternately, if you are savvy about loading for cast bullets, you could try some slower burning powders such as AA4350, H4831SC, RL19 or RL22. Start with a load that gives 60% case capacity and possitively use the 1/2 gr dacron filler. Work up in 1 gr incrments until accuracy goes south or 100% loading density is achieved. At 80% loading density you can quit using the dacron filler. With those slower powders you can probably find useable accuracy to 2100 + fps.

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

my sons 250 is a 1 in 14 and it shoots the 87 grain sierra real well and hes taken a number of deer with it.

[ErikT]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. As for specifics, the barrel is 1:10 twist, as I already mentioned, so I'm sure that the barrel should be able to stabilize these boolits. The actual design is the RCBS 257-120 SP with a gas check. The powders I'm using are Varget, IMR 3031, and Win 760 so far, but I might try some slower powders than those. I tried using straight linotype as well as water-dropped wheel weights, and got the same effects. I think the simplest answer is the most likely; I'm just pushing them too fast. I'll try dropping the velocity way down below my initial starting loads and see what's happening there. I also figured out that this particular barrel is unusually picky about seating depth, so that may have a lot to do with it. It's so picky, in fact, that a change of 0.010" in seating depth of jacketed bullets will open groups from 1" at 100 to 5" at 100. I've never had a barrel that was this picky. I'm going to vary the seating depths as well to see what it likes. Wish me luck!

[9.3X62AL]

I mentioned the 1-14" twist in the context of the gentler twist rate being a bit more kind to castings than the steeper 1-10" rate of the OP's rifle, in light of the velocities he was driving the slugs at. Sorry for spoiling the ambiance. Jeez......

[Larry Gibson]

9.3x62AL

It's to bad the twist wasn't 14" then he may have gotten away with driving them 2200+ fps. I don't think you spoiled the ambiance at all and think you did well in mentioning the twist angle. Seems when I mention it all the:groner: come out because I'me talking about RPM again. They can ignore it all they want but here is another fine example of how it works. I think EricT is going to do just fine with his 250 Savage when he slows that RCBS bullet down to 1800 - 1950 fps.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

I'll tell ya what, a 25 cal boolit at 120 grs doing 1800 fps ought to be one penetrating sucker!

[9.3X62AL]

RPM matters, Larry. Not a speck of doubt about it. I have at least one rifle (in 223) right now that I wish ran 1-14" instead of its 1-9" twist, but that's another story. &%$# THING!

[Larry Gibson]

RPM matters, Larry. Not a speck of doubt about it. I have at least one rifle (in 223) right now that I wish ran 1-14" instead of its 1-9" twist, but that's another story. &%$# THING!

My sympathies....and i feel your pain.....I've 2 of those also; an AR and a Savage Comp bolt action. Fortuneately I also have an AR and 2 other bolt guns (M70 XTR and a M700V) with 12" twists and a single shot iwith 14" twist....those do well with cast:-)

Larry Gibson

[PAT303]

You guys have me worried,I have a 1-12 twist 25/303 and I've just odered the RCBS mold for it.I hope it flies straight. Pat

[madsenshooter]

Makes me worry too! I don't like reading things about a fast twist not working myself. I'm having an AR upper built with an old Obermeyer 6mm barrel. I didn't measure the twist, but just looking and guessing, I'd say it's a 1/8 or faster, and the only thing I have to feed it, boolit-wise, is the Eagan MX2-243. Oh well, just don't go too fast! I've got an alloy that'll go 2450fps in a 1/10 30 caliber though. Ah, what the heck, if it don't work, it'll be j-word dedicated! At least the 6mm bullets are cheaper than 30s!

[PAT303]

I don't want to spend $100 on a mold that doesn't work. Pat

[NoDakJak]

My 250 is a Model 579 Sako with a 1/10 Douglas Supreme barrel. Testing has been limited but shows geat potential. Boolits are ACWW and sized to 258 with Horndy Alox. All testing was at fifty yards as I had just had a knee replacement and couldn't make it out to the one hundred yard targets.
The majority of testing was performed with Lyman 257312. All of these are starting loads and can be increased.
12.0 grains of Ramshot Enforcer
12.0 grains of 4759
15.0 grains of 5744
20.0 grains of Varget This was the most accurate and is probably the load with the most potential.
Lyman 257464 The only load tested is with 20.0 grains of Varget and groups were almost twice the size as with 257312. It will take more shooting to find out if this is just a fluke.
I just purchased a Modern Bond two hole mold that casts an 88 grain, gas checked, Loverin boolit and am looking forward to much testing with those slugs.
A couple years ago I was doing much testing with several 25.20s. 257312 seemed to stablize fairly well but 257464 invariably showed tipping. For reasons that I can not remember now I tried reducing the load of 2400 by one grain and then stuffing the case to the brim with drier lint before seating the boolit. It turned out to be by far the most accurate load that I found for the 25.20 but is sure a pain in the seat to stuff all that lint in that small hole. Neil

[NVScouter]

I also have a 1-14" that loves 75-100g but wont do 120s. Your barrel should be fine but here is my take:

The 250-3000 was done with jacketed 87g bullets. A 120g should be closer to 2500fps and your running 2100-2700. The faster powders never worked for me but BigGame, H4895, and AA4350 did. I have the Ideal 88g mould made for the 250-3000 but havent really tried it yet. Also I find 2400 to pretty be my powder for picky cast bullets. I resisted for a long time but it works in my 22H to my 300WBY after Blue/Green/Red Dots, W760, TB, etc all failed to give me decent accuracy.

I'm interested since I was thinking about a 250-3000 or 257R barrel for my Savage switch barrel too. Good luck to you.

[Newtire]

I'm having a problem with my Savage bolt-action in .250-3000, and I was wondering if anyone might have some suggestions. I just fitted a new Shilen barrel (1-10" twist) on this rifle, and I've been getting pretty decent accuracy with J-word bullets (0.75" to 1.5" at 100). I just picked up a new RCBS 120 grain 2-cavity GC mould, and I cast a bunch of really nice looking boolits with it. I fitted the gas checks and sized them to .258" (the bore measures .257," right on spec) before I lubed with my time-proven home recipe.

When I went to test fire them, I wasn't getting any hits on the target at 100, so I moved to the 25. Let's just say I would have gotten better accuracy if I'd have thrown the boolits downrange. The best grouping I got was about 8 inches at 25 yards! Now, I'm no veteran of cast boolit shooting, but I've been getting great results from other cartridges and similar loading practices, so I'm wondering if maybe I missed some fundamental issue that gave me shotgun patterns instead of rifle groupings. The lube worked great; not a sign of leading anywhere. The lead was water dropped WW, so would they be too soft? I was only pushing them between 2100 to 2700 fps for this test, and no velocity gave any decent results. Any ideas?

I have a 1-10" twisted Shilen barreled .257 AI and get great accuracy with that boolit but found that one mould I have casts a boolit that's too small of a diameter in the nose. Plus, I push that boolit at just over 1600 fps. In my opinion, you might think about using a slower burning powder, although I used SR4759. But make sure the boolit nose is a snug, push-fit into the bore with no side to side play. I have had this same issue with 2-rifles I have-the other being a 6.5-06. Powder coating fixed my problems by increasing the nose diameter slightly. I used water dropped wheel-weights and Felix Lube or Carnauba Red lube. I am able to seat that boolit long enough so that it doesn't protrude into the case past the neck. So, it's a real shooter for me as long as I follow the rules.

[Texas by God]

My meager advice is to back off the gas as well. The sweet spot for Lyman 90gr fp in my 25-06 was 1500-1600 fps. Above that speed accuracy fell off a cliff. 1-10" twist Tikka.

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[MT Chambers]

Note also that the "bore rider" portion of this design must also be a proper fit in the barrel or accuracy goes south fast.

[ole_270]

In the slow twist M99s I'll add a +1 to the Speer Hot Cores. I've taken several deer with the 87 and a couple with the 100. No surprises, no doubts. I still haven't tried cast in this rifle even though I have 3 molds I use in the 25-20. Molds range from the old Lyman 257420gc to a plain based NOE version of the 260283. I need to try that one sometime.

[Texas by God]

Ole270, that Speer 87 is THE deer bullet in my wife's Sako .250 at 3000 fps.
OP- any update?

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[MT Gianni]

OP was last on the forum 5/5/16. Post is from 2010.

[9.3X62AL]

My 250 Savage and the caliber that displaced it (243 Winchester) are now both down the road. Both are great calibers, I might re-visit them again. If I go the 250 Savage route, barrel twist will be 1-9" or 1-10". Most of its use would be against varmints, but I want the option of using 115-120 grain bullets in the mix. That mindset says "Go 257 Roberts" pretty loudly, though.

I have kinda gone from pillar to post on these rifle rounds larger than 22 but smaller than 30. Few such calibers remain in my gun safe. One is the 25/20 WCF, which is a excellent levergun varmint round for short to middle ranges. Tone it down to black powder intensity, and it makes a great small game harvester--it doesn't shred the table fare.

The other remaining "mid-bore" (for purposes of this thread) is my Ruger 77R in 6.5 x 55 Swedish. This one almost got sent down the road, too--but it took my last deer, so there is some history with it. It also is SUPERBLY ACCURATE with bullets it likes--any 140 grain j-word, for example. It is pretty decent with Lyman #266469, too. It has been my Condor Cuddler since 2008, and does OK with Barnes TSX all-copper projectiles.

One venue I had not exploited its potential within was as a long range/large varmint taker. Its lightest bullet prior to 2017 has been 120 grain TSXs. I haven't done a whole lot of shooting this year, but what I have been able to do included the RugerSwede with Sierra 85 grainers and Hornady 100 grainers. HIJO LA--both bullets are UBER ACCURATE. Powder isn't critical, I have ranged in burn speed from WW-760 to IMR-4350 so far, and sub-1" groups are the rule to 3250 FPS with the 85 grain bullet and to 3100 FPS with the 100 grainer. There is little to choose from between the accuracy of the two bullets. A very pleasant surprise. It has provided very abrupt and unpleasant surprises for a few jackrabbits and one badger, though. One of those jacks was lasered at 278 yards off the muzzle.

An unfortunate outcome for any potential acquisition of a 250 Savage, it seems.

[Texas by God]

OP was last on the forum 5/5/16. Post is from 2010.That's why I keep bumping my head; I don't pay attention!

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[Newtire]

OP was last on the forum 5/5/16. Post is from 2010.

That's OK, we still all can learn from the post.

[Pioneer2]

The 87 gr Speer also works well on deer if you avoid the shoulders/ 34.5gr -IMR 4895 in a Savage 99 use at own risk but it's out of the Ken Waters Pet Loads book.