Bows

[Arisaka99]

I am looking for a good bow, but I am clueless. I am left handed and have a 30-31 inch draw. I was looking for a compound bow, but I'll take a traditional recurve or longbow, but I'm trying to get a nice compound. I dont think I can draw 70lbs, but I can try to work up to it. I think I can pull about 50 lbs right now, but I'm not sure. Reccomendations would be great, im looking at the parker bows right now, but im not sure I want to spend that much when I spend the same amt and get a crossbow.

[hoosierlogger]

I personally have only shot Martin bows. I have had good luck with them so far.

[Arisaka99]

Yeah, I dont want to spend a lot on a bow, 300 is about the max I could spend on a bow if at all.

[wonderwolf]

I've got a Ben Pearson recurve that is just a joy to shoot. Getting to the point I can hit a 5" circle 50% of the time at about 35 yards.

[DIRT Farmer]

Chris if you want to know how dedicated I am my bow is made from Osage also known as hedge and my arrows have flint heads.
As for a moderm bow, the companies make their profit line convincing archers that only this years modle will kill a deer because it is 1.23 % faster than last years model. Look for a close out or a used bow. A yard sale bow might not be a good choice unless you know the owner as bows get abused and a blowen limb is exciting. Most good dealers can put you in a good bow a few years old fairly cheap, Or get a book and start whittling.

[whitetailsniper]

pm sent to you ,,think you will want to read it.

[home in oz]

Craigslist

Second hand stores

I bought a nice 45lb pull recurve from an antique store for thirty bucks.

[longbow]

Not sure exactly what your intended use(s) are but assuming hunting.

If you plan to practice and become proficient then a 50 lb. recurve should be plenty and they can be had new or used for reasonable prices. However, if shooting a traditional bow without sights you do have to practice regularly to maintain proficiency.

eBay may be a dirty word here but I picked up a nice Ben Pearson Rogue recurve in 50 lbs. for my son a couple of years ago. It cost $86.00 plus shipping so to Canada I think the final price was $120.00 CDN.

It wasn't in perfect shape but was quite shootable. After refinishing and straightening a slightly twisted limb it shoots very well

Compounds are easier to shoot though, and with sights and trigger release are easier to maintain hunting levels of accuracy. They are also almost always faster in equal draw weight to traditional bows so will provide flatter trajectory.

Having said that, I make and shoot traditional wood bows and have little to no interest in compounds. Just making the observation that if archery is a means to an end to have another hunting tool then you are likely better served by a compound bow.

You will still need to learn and practice and have properly spined arrows but once you are set up and shooting, the compound is easier to maintain hunting levels of accuracy.

As a comment, regardless of draw weight your maximum hunting shot should not exceed about 45 yards.

You may also find a used crossbow for a reasonable price and again, if your interest is hunting rather than archery a crossbow is a good choice. With a good fast crossbow and scope you might add a little more range too.

FWIW

Longbow

[lurch]

Check the classifieds over at archerytalk.com as well. Quite often you can pick up a 2 or 3 year old bow for around that.

[69daytona]

I have a Martin Bengal and Warthog. Love them both, have more robinhoods with the Warthog but the Bengal is a smooth shooting bow adjustable from 45-70lbs and up to 30" pull. they run around 300 and if you look around on ebay you can find them loaded for around 250-300, thats how I got my Bengal and it was only 3 months old. PSE isnt a bad bow either just doest feel as forgiving as the Martins.

[danski26]

I suggest you find a pro-shop near you and get fitted for a bow. Both for your size and your wallet. Most people have draw lengths too long for them. You say that you are 30 to 31 inch draw. In my experience that means you are over 6'4" tall or you are drawing too long. At 6'0" I draw a little over 28". Maybe I'm wrong and you have very long arms or are very tall but if you are just getting into archery I suggest you have someone that really knows what they are doing figure your draw. It is very important to your shooting form to have the right draw length. get that done and then there are tons of used bows out there for sale at good prices.

[rollmyown]

I reckon you are on the right track with a compound. They are easier to shoot well (in my experience) and because of the easier draw you are more likley to practice. There is a big difference between a 50 lb bow and a 70lb one. I think that if a 50 lb bow is your current limit, then I think a 60 pounder would be your limit. Bows with less agressive cams are easier to shoot well when you are leaning, but I understand the tradeoff is speed. I have a PSE bow It's well made and I like it alot. I'm no expert on archery by any means, and I'm happy to be corrected on any comment. :-)

[hoosierlogger]

Yeah, I dont want to spend a lot on a bow, 300 is about the max I could spend on a bow if at all.

The bow I have now is older than any other bow I have ever had. It is a Martin Jaguar. I bought it used a couple of years ago. I put a new string, rest, and sight on it all for around $300 I have a great shooting bow.

[Lloyd Smale]

get a compound. Recurves are cool but much harder to learn on. To me there more for a seasoned bow hunter that is looking for more of a challange. As to draw weight ive come full circle. I used to think i need all i could pull and at one time used 80lb pull compounds. In all reality a 55lb compound will kill anything that walks with the proper arrow and broadhead if it is tuned properly so that the arrow hits an animal straight. A properly tuned arrow out of a 50lb bow will penetrate better then one out of a 80lb pull bow that isnt tuned. As to brands for years I mostly bought golden eagles. they werent quite as fast as some but were a very smooth drawing and shooting bow and were also very quite bows. For the most part now i buy mathews bows. there may be some better bows on the market but its hard to go wrong with a mathews. Also a guy has to decide how hes going to shoot a bow. If your going to use a finger glove vs a release try to find a bow with longer limbs and when buying a bow i tend to go with a longer limbed bow anyway as there alot more forgiving to shoot. Ill always take smoother and quieter over a few fps when buying a bow.

[danski26]

Thats some good advice too Lloyd.

[lurch]

I suggest you find a pro-shop near you and get fitted for a bow. Both for your size and your wallet. Most people have draw lengths too long for them. You say that you are 30 to 31 inch draw. In my experience that means you are over 6'4" tall or you are drawing too long. At 6'0" I draw a little over 28". Maybe I'm wrong and you have very long arms or are very tall but if you are just getting into archery I suggest you have someone that really knows what they are doing figure your draw. It is very important to your shooting form to have the right draw length. get that done and then there are tons of used bows out there for sale at good prices.

VERY good advice. I re-read the OP and it definitely seems that the OP is unsure draw length. That will just about kill you if you get it wrong.

As a starting point for determining draw length (that's a starting point, not the final number...) measuere your "wing span". Stand up against a wall and extend your arms out to your sides. Extend them out, but don't stretch. Measure from the tip of one middle finger to the other (helps to have someone else do that). Take the result and either"


divide by 2.5 or
subtract 15 and divide by 2


Both are ways that folks do this. The answer will be a starting point for determining your draw length. Myself, I'm part gorilla as I'm about 6'3" but have a wingspan of 79.25". I find a 31" draw about right for me. Most bows either have adjustable cams or modules that can be replaced on the cams to alter the draw length once you get a handle on where it needs to be. If you find a good used bow, I'd still take it to a pro shop and let them look you over for corrections that need to be made for draw length. Expect to pay for this, but it will be money very well spent.

[Arisaka99]

Dan, I am 6'3/4" I just say im 6'2 because its easier. I have only shot a genesis bow and that was in middle school, I am now a sophomore. I used to have a little bear bow from Wally world, but I am wayyy to big for that now. At bass Pro Shops, thew have you come to full draw then measure you from your fist to the wall. (your other fist is against the wall) The first time I got measured, it was 31, the second time it was 30. So I guess I need to go to a local archery or hunting shop and ask them to measure me. i live in an apt, so I dont really have anywhere to practice at right now, but I could go to one of the ranges and shoot. What kind of broadheads do you guys like to use? I was gonna use rage expandables, but they arent cheap!!! What about field points? Thanks,

[hoosierlogger]

Dan, I am 6'3/4" I just say im 6'2 because its easier. I have only shot a genesis bow and that was in middle school, I am now a sophomore. I used to have a little bear bow from Wally world, but I am wayyy to big for that now. At bass Pro Shops, thew have you come to full draw then measure you from your fist to the wall. (your other fist is against the wall) The first time I got measured, it was 31, the second time it was 30. So I guess I need to go to a local archery or hunting shop and ask them to measure me. i live in an apt, so I dont really have anywhere to practice at right now, but I could go to one of the ranges and shoot. What kind of broadheads do you guys like to use? I was gonna use rage expandables, but they arent cheap!!! What about field points? Thanks,

Chris, I use the Rage 2 blade broadheads. I can tell you that if you have a deer that is looking right at you and will not turn broadside, you can shoot it in the neck and it will only run 20 yards before it is dead in its tracks. I hit it right in the main highway to the brain. It looked like someone poured out a 5 gallon bucket of blood on the ground. Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder could have found it. Field tips dont really matter as long as they are the same weight as the expandable broadheads. If you go with fixed broadheads they will shoot differently than field tips.

[sucngas]

Another expandable to look into, check out the Grim Reaper's. Very impressive results. Seen two deer shot with them, mine made it 40 yards, my brother's made it about 60 yards. Also worth looking at, you can get an Alpine Frontier bow package for around that $300 mark. Had one, loved it so much that when I upgraded, I bought an Alpine Silverado.

[waksupi]

I've always had a preference to Bear Razorheads, and Zwickey Eskimos.

[Idaho_Elk_Huntr]

Here is a great deal on a new bow

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4450788/1

[bearcove]

I have a Bear compound came with quiver and sights. $20 at a pawn shop. The deer I have shot never knew how cheap it was.

+1 on bear razor heads.

[Arisaka99]

Yeah, I may have struck a deal with whitetail sniper. Ill keep you posted. :D

[DIRT Farmer]

Showing your age there waksupi, not many of us have them in our shooting kit. They do take deer when sharp and don't turn on bone. Some of the old stuff is still good but do not generate advertising dollars for the TV shows.

[82nd airborne]

Hoyt TurboHawk, Awsome and affordable.

[357maximum]

I have killed bucks with everything from very traditional to top end $$ modern equipment, it simply does not matter what you use. You must be proficient with your choice and practice to keep that proficiency. Traditional equipment does require a bit more practice, but once you have "it" it is simply a matter of a bit of practice to get "it" back.

I shot a "cheap" alpine oak ridge hunter for 8+ years and it served me really well. It "sploded" the old cable system the night before season last year. I bought a used mathews that night as the bowshop was closing. Turned on the lights out back behind the cabin and sighted it in in the dark. I went hunting the next morning fully confident in my tool at hand....... It kills just as well :) as "MY BABY" did she has in fact proved herself several times now.

Bows are just about like guns.........99% of the time it is the nut behind the bolt(s) assuming they fit of course.

[home in oz]

Of course, you could always make your own long bow from osage orage, or ash, or I read that oak was used by native Americans.

I plan to make bows after I retire next year....

[Bullshop Junior]

I have a Elite Fire-flight express 65-90 lb draw Compound. I really like it. I have a really long draw, and this one is the only bow I have fond with a long enough draw.

It shoots really well, but the problem I have is finding arrows that don't break.

It takes a lot of money to set up a bow. I paid $90 for the bow, then had to set it up. A good sight is about $100-150. With a compound, I can shoot much better with a GOOD trigger (a cheap on is just that --- Cheap) Thats another $80-100. Plus anti vibe stuff.

Then you have arrows to deal with. Carbon arrows are not creap, and with my bow they are good for about 3-7 shots. Arrows range from $50-250 a dozen.

[waksupi]

Showing your age there waksupi, not many of us have them in our shooting kit. They do take deer when sharp and don't turn on bone. Some of the old stuff is still good but do not generate advertising dollars for the TV shows.

I trust them a lot more than replaceable blade heads on big game. I have watched blood pump over six feet into the air from a lung shot elk with the Bear's.

Old picture, but 6X7 bull taken with Bear Razorheads.

[whitetailsniper]

chris,
my advice to you is this,,as most of us exsp.bow hunters know,, archery gear is a matter of personal preferance,what one or a few like ,others my not, what works for some may not work for you. as far as getting measured for your draw length,,dont settle for anything less than going to a reputable archery shop,,no fly by night places,,look for one in your area thats been arround awhile. once you find one,go in and ask them to measure you for your draw length,,,most knowagable places will have on hand a bow scale that measures your exact draw length. putting your hand on a wall,and other forms like this is just a guess at best. as for field points theres are many differant types,styles,makes,,some remove easy,,some do not from targets. but as for weight from what you said, and i think most would agree your wanting to be at 100 grains for field points,,as well as broadhed grain. i to am at 6ft 3 in. tall my draw length is 31 inches. test results show that most bow hunters pending arrow selection use 100 grain broadheds. there are many differant style broadheads,arrows,rest,releases,sights to choose from,,but it all boils down to what you like,and works best for you. now if your looking for a broadhead and fieldpoints to match,,theres a few co. out there like G5, muzzy,to name a few who has hunting broadheads,and field points look,and act the same only differance is ones for hunting the other for practicing. same goes for arrows,,if you ask chuck adams he loves his supper slams,,were as ted nuggent loves his gold tips. its all in the preferance,some guys dont trust carbon arrows,,,were other guys wait untill new products have been out awhile and prove themselfs. there are most broadhead manufactors who have there line of mechanical broadheds,,,,to many to list,but i do have to admit the rage mecanicals have been out awhile,and have been on the lips of alot of bowhunters. choose well,choose wisely.most of all have fun with it,as it was ment to be. its a great sport.

[Lloyd Smale]

lots of fancy broadheads out there but waksupis recomendation cant be beat. There excellent broadheads and probably what id use on anything bigger then a deer. Problem for me is im inept at sharpening anything and i like repaceable blades. As to which brand i dont think it means a pinch which you chose. I use thunderheads and have had good luck with them. When i started using them they were the state of the art broadhead but now about everyone makes something simular. If I was going to switch id probably start using a cut on impact style rather then a chisel point. I also prefer a 125 to a 100 or lighter broadhead. I dont shoot past 30 yards so really dont need the flat trajectory of a light broadhead and prefer the heavier ones that insure a bit more penetration.
I've always had a preference to Bear Razorheads, and Zwickey Eskimos.

[82nd airborne]

.357 gave some dang good advice.

[cptinjeff]

The best advice you have received so far has been to visit a high quality Archery shop.
You have to start out with things set up correctly and fitting correctly. Once this is accomplished (hard for beginners because of the variables) you can concentrate only on you. When I started 15 years ago this was my biggest mistake. If I had been given and followed the above advice I could have saved a couple of YEARS of frustration. I'm glad I was hard headed enough not to give up though. I tried to set up everything myself and I never knew if it was me or the equipment. Get the equipment tuned by a good pro and then work on you. Don't make it about the best equipment...make it about you. I still hunt with that same bow (a martin cougar) and have buddies that shoot with 30 year old bear white tail bows. I also have friends that shoot the latest and greatest. It all boils down to you and the tuning of your bow.

Off topic but trying to make a point:
A couple of years ago my shooting range (club) would put on informal competitions where we were shooting shot gun hulls at 25 yds (pistol). All these guys would show up with $2000 dollar scoped guns and do poorly. I would show up with my worst looking gun (a smith model 15 with much holster wear and grips about worn through) and beat them. Of course I practiced for months in advance and this had plenty to do with the results. The point? Make it about you and not the equipment and you can't go wrong!

Back on topic:

I use the original rocket expandable. The only pain with them is the rubber band (I replace the originals with lighter dentist bands). I just can't believe how fast these things kill compared to every other system I've seen and they fly like a field point so it saves some time in set up. Once again though....they all work well if you hit em were your supposed to! Good luck and enjoy. Bow shooting is awesome fun!!!

[Milltown353]

get a compound. Recurves are cool but much harder to learn on. To me there more for a seasoned bow hunter that is looking for more of a challange. As to draw weight ive come full circle. I used to think i need all i could pull and at one time used 80lb pull compounds. In all reality a 55lb compound will kill anything that walks with the proper arrow and broadhead if it is tuned properly so that the arrow hits an animal straight. A properly tuned arrow out of a 50lb bow will penetrate better then one out of a 80lb pull bow that isnt tuned. As to brands for years I mostly bought golden eagles. they werent quite as fast as some but were a very smooth drawing and shooting bow and were also very quite bows. For the most part now i buy mathews bows. there may be some better bows on the market but its hard to go wrong with a mathews. Also a guy has to decide how hes going to shoot a bow. If your going to use a finger glove vs a release try to find a bow with longer limbs and when buying a bow i tend to go with a longer limbed bow anyway as there alot more forgiving to shoot. Ill always take smoother and quieter over a few fps when buying a bow.


I recently bought my first bow; a Predator TRS for $50 in very good condition. Changed the sights and put on a whisker biscuit and it's a blast to shoot. Although the let off isn't the best.

[Mk42gunner]

Shop around, try to shoot a few different bows (might be tough since you're left handed).

Round wheels are a lot more forgiving than the edgier cams. The smoothest shooting compound I ever had was a Bear six wheel Whitetail. I shot it with bare fingers, (I was bucking bales all summer then).

If the arrow falls off the arrow rest DO NOT reach up with your finger and reset it. One of my friends got in the habit of doing that with field tips; bad (and bloody) news when he tried it with broad heads.

Robert

[hoosierlogger]

If you buy a bow that doesnt have a rest, I have an old style wisker biscuit that Ill gladly send your way. It was on a bow I bought a few years ago. It was for aluminum arrows and I like carbon fiber. The hole was just too big for the carbon ones.

[Naphtali]

I am looking for a good bow, but I am clueless. I am left handed and have a 30-31 inch draw. I was looking for a compound bow, but I'll take a traditional recurve or longbow, but I'm trying to get a nice compound. I dont think I can draw 70lbs, but I can try to work up to it. I think I can pull about 50 lbs right now, but I'm not sure. Reccomendations would be great, im looking at the parker bows right now, but im not sure I want to spend that much when I spend the same amt and get a crossbow.Is your interest in a traditional bow - flat, self, recurve, longbow, other? Or "Buck Rogers" compounds? I'll pretend you did not mention crossbows as a device for bowhunting.

If Trad is your preference, I may have what you want/need. PM me for details?
***
Regarding draw weight or other methods of attempting to quantify arrow's killing potential, I recommend you read Ed Ashby's ongoing (20+ years and still going) series of tests. They are available via this link.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24

Hope this helps.

[Lloyd Smale]

almost sorry to start up an arguement (almost!) I now use a crossbow. I have a disabled crossbow permit and dont see why anyone would bash it. Its legal to use and for most bow hunters ive ran across it would be much more ethical way for them to hunt. Id say 75 percent of the bow hunters up here dont take the time to really become profiecent with there equiptment and theres many deer that are wounded and not recovered because of it. the cross bow doesnt guarantee a kill but improves your odds of a humane harvest. I also chuckle at guys that bash crossbow hunters. Most of them get through with bow season and grab there 06 or 270 with a 3x9 scope on it to shoot deer at 50 yards. If a guy has to use a recurve to hunt with maybe he out to HAVE TO take a flintlock out in rifle season too. Hunting is a very personal thing and I would never in a million years bash someones choise in gear as long as its legal. Ive shot a ton of deer with a conventional bow and dont have to prove anything to anyone and never though i was a bit superior to someone using a differnt means to hunt.
Is your interest in a traditional bow - flat, self, recurve, longbow, other? Or "Buck Rogers" compounds? I'll pretend you did not mention crossbows as a device for bowhunting.

If Trad is your preference, I may have what you want/need. PM me for details?
***
Regarding draw weight or other methods of attempting to quantify arrow's killing potential, I recommend you read Ed Ashby's ongoing (20+ years and still going) series of tests. They are available via this link.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24

Hope this helps.

[Firebricker]

I did'nt know Michigan required a disabled permit for crossbows. Tennesee recently as in the last few years drop the requirement and allowed anybody to use crossbows. I prefer my compound but have a lot of friends who have been quite succsessful with crossbows. As long as it's legall use what you like having choices is a good thing. FB

[winelover]

[QUOTE=Firebricker;1014401]I did'nt know Michigan required a disabled permit for crossbows.


Use to be the case but recent law changes allowed anyone 50 years of age and over to hunt with crossbows in Michigan. I could be mistaken but this year I think they dropped the age requirement. I don't expect to use a crossbow so I don't keep up on the rules that diligently. BTW today is the Archery Opener in Michigan.

Winelover

[JesterGrin_1]

If one were looking for an Osage Orange Bow where would you go?

[Arisaka99]

I dont know, I'd google search it?

[Mk42gunner]

If one were looking for an Osage Orange Bow where would you go?

I'd walk out back with a chain saw:kidding:. None of my hedge trees are straight enough for me to attempt to make a bow.

Seriously, it depends if you want to make or buy a bow. A few words of advice, dry hedge is some awfully hard stuff to work; you will definately learn how to sharpen your tools.

Robert

[waksupi]

If one were looking for an Osage Orange Bow where would you go?

You can find finished bows on Ebay, along with unfinished staves, if you want to make your own. I've made quite a few over the years. I have a sinew backed one here, about #50 that is a nice shooter. Most hardwoods will work for a bow if you want to experiment with making some, without being out much money.

[Lloyd Smale]

only differnce in a disabled permit and a over 50 permit is a disabled hunter doesnt have to wear hunter orange and doesnt need to pick up a permit every year. Before last year only diabled hunters could use them.
I did'nt know Michigan required a disabled permit for crossbows. Tennesee recently as in the last few years drop the requirement and allowed anybody to use crossbows. I prefer my compound but have a lot of friends who have been quite succsessful with crossbows. As long as it's legall use what you like having choices is a good thing. FB

[Arisaka99]

Whats a good cheap crossbow thats durable and tough?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If I was just starting out I would look for a used fiberglass recurve with a #45 pull. It will not cost a bunch and you can start off cheap and hunt with it.
I still have a 40 year old fiberglass shakespear recurve I thouroughly enjoy.

[357maximum]

Whats a good cheap crossbow thats durable and tough?

Good and cheap are not something you find too much of in an arrowgun. A good arrowgun will cost you less than buying a cheap arrowgun in the long run. I will never (barring some unseen injury) be likely to carry an arrowgun into the woods, (personal decision) but they are big big fun to play with. I was shooting my neighbors high end laminated Parker awhile ago and hitting mini pumpkins at 80 to 100 yards with boring regularity.

**Full disclosure** I am not deadset against arrowguns, but I would not sign a petition to keep them either. My next bow(fingers crossed) is sitting in my house already ...a nice stave of IronWood (hop hornbeam).

[Just1Mor]

i have both traditional and compound bows that i compete with in 3d tournies. My choice in compound is hoyt, you can get a great deal on a few years old bow. My recurve is a bear bow and my long bow was home made from osage orange and something else that i cant remember. but for you price range, redhead, bear, etc are all good bows. I can shoot robinhoods with most. Just pay attention when you get arrows. thats what make the difference.

[krag35]

I picked up a used PSE Coyote last year from a guy going to a compound for $125.00 I got a dozen carbon fiber arrows with it and a dz broad heads, can't remember the name of them right now, but they are fixed blades.
Back when I bow hunted. I was shooting the best of the best at that time (early 90's) Golden Eagle Super Hawk at 84# 22" with overdraw and Thunder head 125's I also had every bell and whistle you could hang on to the bow. I realized that just like MOST "bow hunters" I knew, I was trying to buy an animal with gadgets, rather than earning one with hard work, scouting, and practice.

I am not down on compounds, or the folks that use them, they are by a loose definition (like calling modern inlines, muzzle loaders) a Bow. If legal and you want to cheat yourself out of the real challenge of Bow Hunting (or Muzzle Loader hunting) Get yourself a compound, hang a bunch of stuff on it, practice a bit and go "hunting"

I'm not going to comment on crossbows, they don't even fit in a LOOSE definition of a bow.

[Just1Mor]

I picked up a used PSE Coyote last year from a guy going to a compound for $125.00 I got a dozen carbon fiber arrows with it and a dz broad heads, can't remember the name of them right now, but they are fixed blades.
Back when I bow hunted. I was shooting the best of the best at that time (early 90's) Golden Eagle Super Hawk at 84# 22" with overdraw and Thunder head 125's I also had every bell and whistle you could hang on to the bow. I realized that just like MOST "bow hunters" I knew, I was trying to buy an animal with gadgets, rather than earning one with hard work, scouting, and practice.

I am not down on compounds, or the folks that use them, they are by a loose definition (like calling modern inlines, muzzle loaders) a Bow. If legal and you want to cheat yourself out of the real challenge of Bow Hunting (or Muzzle Loader hunting) Get yourself a compound, hang a bunch of stuff on it, practice a bit and go "hunting"

I'm not going to comment on crossbows, they don't even fit in a LOOSE definition of a bow.

++1 down and dirty for me. I was forced to learn to shoot instictive and i have to admit i am a better shot without sights or fancy gizzmo's