Annealing cases into jackets question

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've annealed rifle cases plenty before for the neck/shoulder area using a torch and a pan of water, so I know that process and what to look for in the color of the brass.

I've also listened to my instructions here and bought a stainless collander at Walmart and put my cases in it, and put it on the gas fireplace.

But, that was an hour and 15 minutes ago... Still no orange glow. I'm tempted to just go fire up the propane torch and get 'er done, but I'd like to be able to use the fireplace, as I can do other stuff while they're "cooking" and I don't have to handle one case at a time, which can be tedious.

So, for those of you who anneal on the gas fireplace, how long does it typically take you?

[seppos]

What I exhanged massages with Richard Corbin, I got the impression that one does not need to heat the brass that much.. He suggested to test different temperatures bitween 500 to 1200 F.
If less is enough why burn too much gas..;)

S

[MakeMineA10mm]

Was he speaking specifically about pistol brass being used as jackets, or was it more for the 22lrs being used for rifle jackets? Reason I ask is that I imagine the relatively thin 22lr "jackets" would anneal quicker and with less heat than the thick case head area of a 9mm or 40S&W case.

Also, while I agree about the gas consumption issue, my reasoning is that this winter, when the wife and family want the "warm glow" and heat of the fireplace running, I could get MY money's worth out of it... [smilie=l: Today, while it's cool (high of 65), the fireplace isn't necessary, but it's a test. Man-project tests like this one should always be done first when the women-folk aren't around. Less questions, skepticism, and disdain occur this way...
:holysheep

[seppos]

Thats true..;)
Here is a part of that mail from Richard.. someting about annealing:
"Unless the jackets are extremely thick it should be possible to reduce them in one operation. It may be necessary to anneal the jackets and the anneal temperature would be between 500 degrees to 1,200 degrees F. If using a hand held propane torch I'd first try heating the jackets until they start to show a bluish color and then either water quench them or let them air cool. It won't matter which way you cool them off. Then if the results are not satisfactory try heating the jackets until they just start to show a dull red color and water quench them.
If it takes quite a bit of effort to draw the jackets they probably will need to be annealed but it may be that they will be fine without an anneal. The only way know is to try a few of them. If the jackets are very hard it will take more pressure to make the bullets and it may cause them to be harder to eject from the point form die. "

S

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Seppos,
Looks like he was talking about 22lr cases. Well, I'm at the 2-hour mark, and the cases are starting to get a rainbow-effect, so the heat's definitely getting to them, just taking longer than I expected. They're also getting a little soot on them, so I think I know why Brian said to polish them over-night. I may wipe them off before I toss them in the tumbler to get rid of the heaviest part of that soot...

[seppos]

We where talking about the jackets made from cartridge cases in general form.. I mentioned earlier on to RIchard about my experiments with .32 S&W long in .338.
One option to save the cases from exess soot, is to wrap them in stainless steel wrapping..?
I have not seen that kind of material, but I think that other things work also..
The idea is to protect the brass from air= oxygen..
In case hardening process the parts are put inside a air tight container and heated up..
Maybe in this case one could do the same?
Take a air tight metal container.. Fill it with the brass and toss it to fire. Have to pay attention that the heat does not go too hight though..;)
One could see the temperature from the surface of the container.. When the whole container has the same apropriate heat colour, one could take the container out or put out the fire and let it cool down..

I will have to do some experiments later on to test this theory. Maybe it works..;)

S

[deltaenterprizes]

Do you have a cover on the container? A cover will hold the heat in .

[MakeMineA10mm]

No, no cover. I'm thinking a different kind of container would be helpful. What I really liked at Wal-Mart was a sink-mount stainless steel strainer, which had two sliding brackets (to adjust and hang over the edges of the sink, suspending the basket above it), but the brackets had rubber-coating on them, and I didn't think that would work well in the fire (inside the house...). Might go back and get it, because I think part of the problem is the stainless steel collander is actually insulating the cases from getting strong heat, and that basket one is more wire-like and would let the cases get right down into the fire. Might try to get the rubber coating off...

For now, I've got a hundred-plus cases that have sat in the fire for 3.25 hours. They didn't glow orange, but they have turned many colors all the way to white (these are brass cases - none were nickel-plated). I'm sure they're softened, just not sure they're as soft as they would be if they had gotten orange. Next time I'm getting a different container to go in the fire, or I'm going to leave them in longer (like 5-6 hours) and see if they get really orange. Might also try re-arranging the fake logs to let the collander set right on the burner...

Anyway, I think I've gotten somewhere. We'll see. Maybe this evening, Brian or some others who have done their annealing in the fireplace will stop by and tell me if I got far enough or not...

[Jailer]

Not sure if this will help you or not, but I'll share my first attempt at annealing .40 brass that I tried last night.

Used a old cruddy cookie sheet on the gas grill. Took the grill grate and heat shield off over the burner. Placed all the cases mouth up on the cookie sheet and set it the grill. It sat nicely in the recessed rim around the bottom half of the grill just a few inches off the burner. Well, not long into it the cookie sheet distorted and went kind of oblong putting one corner right down into the flames and the opposite corner up in the air a bit. I also knocked a few of the cases over when it moved. The low corner got red hot but the cases never seemed to change color much. The heat was too much for the cookie sheet and it started to melt in the handle area so I shut off the heat and pulled it off the grill.

The few cases that were in the low portion of the cookie sheet that got red hot were annealed just fine. Once they cooled you could pinch the mouth closed between 2 fingers. The others obviously didn't get enough heat and didn't seem to be affected much. I'm going to try again with a cast iron fry pan and see if I can get enough heat into it to do the job. If not I'm going to have to try the fry pan over a turker fryer and see if that will do the trick. It should.

Pics of my fail. The idea is sound it was just a poor execution.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/annealattempt1001.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/annealattempt1002.jpg

[MakeMineA10mm]

Interesting. I might just remove the grill and heat shield, and stand the cases up on the rows of burners and then light it off. When the cases start glowing, just shut her down...?

I noticed that the cases I have that turned white are slightly softer. (They're still too hot to handle.) But with the oven-mitt on, I could squeeze the mouth of the case and it gave a little. Still has some tension in it, so it's not dead soft...

Grill tomorrow! (Or maybe tonight, after the wife goes to bed...)

[Jailer]

Ok, attempting another go at it. I'm using 2 smaller "brownie" pans from Wal Mart. Well actually they are from my wifes kitchen cupboards but what she doesn't know won't hurt her. :smile:

They are the 7x11 pans and are a bit thicker than the pan I tried last night. I tried them on the the grill grate but they were too far from the flame and no go. So I drilled holes in the 4 corners and installed 4 3 inch long bolts. I took the grate off and set the pans directly over the flame. They are about an inch or two off the burner and the burner flames are hitting right on the bottom of the pans now. They did distort a little from the heat but all the cases are still upright.

I'll post back in a bit with the results, they're still on as I type.

[buck1]

I use a covered dutch oven in my wood burning fire place or put it on my smelting burner. It takes a wile even then. At the first sign of the bottom of the pot glowing any at all , they are done. I would check your test cases by crushing the mouth with your fingers and compare to virgin cases (they can still be kind of stiff but softer). This method works well for my 44 from 40 boolits....Buck

[Jailer]

SUCCESS!!!!

Some times I scare myself. Actually I have a problem that I just can't quit until I win. Luckily it only took me a couple attempts for me to win.

The new pans worked great. They were over the burners for an hour (with an anal retentive impatient me checking them every 15 minutes). I placed them in 3 rows on the edges of the pans and in the center to see if heat distribution would be a problem. I tried a couple from all 3 locations and they all were nice and soft. I can squish the mouth down between 2 fingers and the rim can be squished with 7 inch vise grips with one hand without much effort. They should be perfect for swaging.

Here are some pics of my setup. I'm scheduled for surgery next Monday morning so I know what I'll be doing while I am convalescing.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/annealed6.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/annealed8.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/annealed7.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/annealed4.jpg

[MakeMineA10mm]

Excellent! My burners are set up different, but I'm sure I can get it to work too. I'll get at it tomorrow night though...

Hope your surgery goes very well and your recuperation is fast and easy!

.

[a.squibload]

I tried a fry basket made of wire, my grill didn't get hot enough to make the cases glow.
It's messed up. I usually use the smoker for cooking.
Anyway I did the propane torch method, setting the cases mouth down on tiles in rows, that's a little tedious.
The torch heats each one to glowing orange pretty quick.
When they're laid out in rows the flame goes around the one you're heating
and preheats the next one.
Sprayed 'em with water to cool quicker, didn't take long to do a couple hundred.

I'll refurbish the grill again (some day) but might try the kiln method.

Also I made a burner for my melting pot project, when it's set up it will probably heat
a bunch of brass pretty quick.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd487/a-squibload/burner.jpg

[zuke]

What about using an old stainless steel pot,putting a bunch of brass in it and then putting the pot into a campfire?
As long as the brass get's hot/red isn't that what matter's?
And what about pouring the whole pot of brass into water to anneal them?

[Jailer]

What about using an old stainless steel pot,putting a bunch of brass in it and then putting the pot into a campfire?
As long as the brass get's hot/red isn't that what matter's?
And what about pouring the whole pot of brass into water to anneal them?

Well you could do that but you might run the risk of melting or severely distorting the cases at the bottom of the pot nearest the fire. If it was full of cases the ones in the center might not get enough heat. You want to try and somewhat control how much heat they are getting while ensuring they are getting enough.

Boiling them won't work since you can't get water hot enough to anneal the brass.

[Daywalker]

I tried a fry basket made of wire, my grill didn't get hot enough to make the cases glow.
It's messed up. I usually use the smoker for cooking.
Anyway I did the propane torch method, setting the cases mouth down on tiles in rows, that's a little tedious.
The torch heats each one to glowing orange pretty quick.
When they're laid out in rows the flame goes around the one you're heating
and preheats the next one.
Sprayed 'em with water to cool quicker, didn't take long to do a couple hundred.

I'll refurbish the grill again (some day) but might try the kiln method.

Also I made a burner for my melting pot project, when it's set up it will probably heat
a bunch of brass pretty quick.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd487/a-squibload/burner.jpg

I use this same method now. Except I lay 2 fire bricks side by side and fill them both completely with brass. A couple hundered at a time. Your right, does not take long at all, maybe 20 minutes?? Word of caution, Only twice has this happend to me, however, while using my torch getting these hot, I had a couple cases "pop" on me. I did have my safety glasses on so all was good, I just reached down on the ground an picked them back up and put them back on the brick and kept going. Not sure what caused them to pop, the cases were empty and range pick up so unless there was some more primer compound left over I have no idea. I then have a pan of water and a small push blade I put together and just push them over into the water and set up the next batch. The fire brick gets really really warm which also helps to preheat the other batches and the anneal time goes down a small amount. I place my fire brick side by side on my turkey burner and just use the hand torch to anneal them...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My recipe:

Air tight Wood Stove.
Bed of glowing coals.
stainless steel screen type collander.
put Brass into collander...only one layer thick.
Put one or two pieces of kindling onto coals.
set collander of brass onto kindling.
All brass is glowing red in about 5 to 10 minutes.

Last winter, I annealed about 6000 pieces of brass this way.
I haven't melted/distorted any yet...But I am watchful.

I have found that only a bed of coals doesn't heat then enough,
I think the collander blocks the flow of oxygen to the coals and kind of snuffs them out.
The kindling keeps the collander off the coals and I think the flames from the kindling
must be hotter than the coals. Because, I tryed using NO kindling and arranged the coals so Oxygen could go under the collander, and it took more than 30 minutes and then they didn't heat evenly...leaving me with some fully annealed and some not fully annealed.

right out of the wood stove, they go into a bucket of warm water.
then into a acid bath for 5 minutes.
then rinse several times, typically I rinse 4 times.
I use a Salt/vinegar acid.

Recipe for acid:
desolve 1 cup salt into 1 gallon hot tap water,
then carefully add 1 cup vinegar.
USE ONLY PLASTIC UTENSILS AND A PLASTIC BUCKET.
I get about 3 batches (each batch is about 300 pieces) clean with a gallon
of this acid before it loses too much strength.

I then tumble in clean (meaning not wax/polish) corncob media
for about 2 or 3 hours.
Jon

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, wife and daughter caught me tonight, so now I'm bein made fun of for "boiling bullets"... I tried telling them it's more akin to "cooking cases" but they were already off on their path of ridiculing daddy and his silly activities and didn't pay much attention...

But, I don't care, because I have SUCCESS! I have a large "Aussie" grill with four strip-style burners that are relatively flat. I just set a row of about 20 cases along the edge of each side of each burner, and turned on the gas to full-force. 15 minutes later, I was done.

I'm not yet 100% happy with the level of consistency got. I noticed there are definitely hotter and colder parts of the burner. (Notice this during cooking too...) Some cases were glowing orange in less than 10 minutes, and a very few, in certain spots, never really got orange. I noticed too that I needed to have the cases precariously perched right near the edge of the burner so the flames lick up around them to get the full effect evenly around the case.

Of course I dropped a few cases down into the grease catch-pan, so I'll fish those out later... :oops:

So, as usual, I'm in the learning curve still, but having success and getting there with my "boiling bullets"... :bigsmyl2: Die should be here in a day or two, and I should be making JHPs on Saturday.

BTW, I've made some vinegar bath to clean cases before. Didn't work too well, but I'm going to see how these wash up to begin with. Hot, soapy water and a wire brush followed by paper-towelling, and then either into the vinegar or straight to the tumbler. Thursday, the wife's at work all day, so I can run the tumbler from dawn to dusk... :Fire:

[uncle joe]

I haven't had much experience annealing brass, but I have steel. With steel you need to reach a critical temp with steel somewhere around 1300 degrees hold it there for several minutes, then slow cool it gradually. The slower it cooled the better the anneal. I would think the air cooling would be better than 'quenching' in water. Might even be better to dump sand over the brass when it comes out of the oven to cool it slow.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Joe. Interesting thoughts. If this really takes off, and I become as excited about swaging as casting, I may have to figure out a good permanent annealing set-up.

I noticed when I was annealing in my grill, that the temp gauge (built into the lid of the grill) got to around 400 degrees (F), so I'm sure the cases sitting right in the blue flames were considerably hotter than that. The best ones got the dull orange glow, while some were still brass-colored, but upon pulling them out, they had the same embrittlement to the finish as the ones that had gotten orange.

I'm air-cooling and I think I'm getting a pretty good softening on the brass.

I also noted as I was getting ready to take them to the sink for a cleaning that all the soot they acquired in the fireplace attempt the other day is gone. Must've burned off, which I think is another good sign - they got quite hot; much more so than in the fireplace.

My fireplace burners have the fake logs, and I may just take them out and stand the cases on the fireplace burners, which are perfectly flat (even better than my gas grill's burners, which have a slight angle to them). I think in my first fire-place attempt yesterday the jackets were:

A) Too far away from the flame source, and
B) Too insulated by the collander.

Direct in the flames is the way I did with a torch on rifle neck/shoulders before, and since I'm not trying to preserve the hardness of the case head on these (quite the opposite in fact), there's no need for the water heat sink or worrying about them getting "too" hot.

[zuke]

Well you could do that but you might run the risk of melting or severely distorting the cases at the bottom of the pot nearest the fire. If it was full of cases the ones in the center might not get enough heat. You want to try and somewhat control how much heat they are getting while ensuring they are getting enough.

Boiling them won't work since you can't get water hot enough to anneal the brass.

The water isn't to heat the brass, it's to quench the brass quickly thus annealing it.

[zuke]

I haven't had much experience annealing brass, but I have steel. With steel you need to reach a critical temp with steel somewhere around 1300 degrees hold it there for several minutes, then slow cool it gradually. The slower it cooled the better the anneal. I would think the air cooling would be better than 'quenching' in water. Might even be better to dump sand over the brass when it comes out of the oven to cool it slow.

Brass the exact opposite of steel, you quench it in water to soften it up.
That's how I've been doing case neck's for quite some time now.

[bohica2xo]

Copper and it's alloys do not need to be quenched. You can let them air cool, or toss them in icewater - it makes no difference.

This Post has more info (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=694120&postcount=9)

I usually use one of my heat treat ovens if one is already "up". One of them is usually idling around 1000f , so I just toss the cases in there for a while.

If I am in a hurry, I use a firebrick & a propane torch. Takes about 5 minutes to do a brick full of cases placed head up. Just turn them red & keep working across the block.

If you are using an aluminum pan it is doubtful that the cases are getting a full anneal.

B.

[a.squibload]

After annealing I've been dumping the cases in a big plastic wide-mouth jug,
2 tsp of citric acid per quart, add very hot water almost full, then tumble it around a few times.
In about 10 min the cases are really clean, then into the tumbler.
Walnut shell, only 'cause that's what I had on hand. Think I'll get corncob next time.

Search around here, there are a few threads on citric acid, cleans brass real good
and "passivates" it, making it very unlikely to tarnish.

[Daywalker]

I agree with the citric acid cleaning really good. Lemishine I believe is what I read on here, I started using the lemishine/water mix in my ultrasonic cleaner to clean my annealed brass a boy let me tell you what. They come out clean and smelling lemony fresh heheheh....

Bohica, have you had problems of a few cases going "pop" when anealing on the fire brick case head up? That is exatly how I anneal mine, I wear safety glasses due to the fact I have had a couple cases where they went pop and I had to pick them up off the floor and place them on the brick. They pop with such force it blows the flame out on the propane torch lol....

[Jailer]

I agree with the citric acid cleaning really good. Lemishine I believe is what I read on here, I started using the lemishine/water mix in my ultrasonic cleaner to clean my annealed brass a boy let me tell you what. They come out clean and smelling lemony fresh heheheh....


This.

I picked some up from Wally World yesterday. I can't believe how easy it is to clean them with this stuff. They come out looking like new after just a little bit of soaking.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Copper and it's alloys do not need to be quenched. You can let them air cool, or toss them in icewater - it makes no difference.

This Post has more info (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=694120&postcount=9)

This is my understanding as well. the reason I do quench them is because I am doing this in my Livingroom woodstove. I'd rather not have near red hot brass cooling near my livingroom carpet and such. Plus I like to add the humidity to the house in the winter :)
Jon

[sourceofuncertainty]

After annealing I've been dumping the cases in a big plastic wide-mouth jug,
2 tsp of citric acid per quart, add very hot water almost full, then tumble it around a few times.
In about 10 min the cases are really clean, then into the tumbler.

Me too. I've been annealing by torch so far, then doing a citric acid bath followed by tumbling. Citric acid + tumbling makes for some very clean & pretty brass.

I get citric acid at the local health food/grocery store (Sprouts) in the bulk spices section for about 50 cents an ounce. Cheap and effective.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, I said in my prior post that I was going to clean these in hot, soapy water in the sink, but I don't think I'm gonna now. After looking at all the annealed brass in the daylight, it's not that dirty.

In fact, I think I've found another indicator of a good anneal -- All the brass that has been annealed enough has an opaque brownish color to it. It is no longer shiney. The cases that were on a "cool" spot in the grill were still shiney, so they got re-cycled through, and I adjusted where on the burner I was setting the cases, so as to get enough heat on them.

Now, they're dull, brownish-colored, and with basically no soot on them.

They're headed to the tumbler now. I'll have to try the citric acid bath some time. For now, all I've got is vinegar (which in my experience just makes the brass dull, not shiney), but these cases look good enough that I think with an overnight run in the tumbler, they'll be fine.

[Jailer]

Well, I said in my prior post that I was going to clean these in hot, soapy water in the sink, but I don't think I'm gonna now. After looking at all the annealed brass in the daylight, it's not that dirty.

In fact, I think I've found another indicator of a good anneal -- All the brass that has been annealed enough has an opaque brownish color to it. It is no longer shiney. The cases that were on a "cool" spot in the grill were still shiney, so they got re-cycled through, and I adjusted where on the burner I was setting the cases, so as to get enough heat on them.

Now, they're dull, brownish-colored, and with basically no soot on them.

They're headed to the tumbler now. I'll have to try the citric acid bath some time. For now, all I've got is vinegar (which in my experience just makes the brass dull, not shiney), but these cases look good enough that I think with an overnight run in the tumbler, they'll be fine.

Mine turn out just like that too after I take them off the grill. I tried tumbling mine in clean corn cob media and it didn't take the tarnished color off. About 15 minutes of soaking in the kitchen sink with Lemi Shine and a few drops of dish soap I agitated them around with my hand and they look like new again.

[bohica2xo]

I agree with the citric acid cleaning really good. Lemishine I believe is what I read on here, I started using the lemishine/water mix in my ultrasonic cleaner to clean my annealed brass a boy let me tell you what. They come out clean and smelling lemony fresh heheheh....

Bohica, have you had problems of a few cases going "pop" when anealing on the fire brick case head up? That is exatly how I anneal mine, I wear safety glasses due to the fact I have had a couple cases where they went pop and I had to pick them up off the floor and place them on the brick. They pop with such force it blows the flame out on the propane torch lol....

Daywalker:
I have never had a case do that. I am sure that with several pounds in the oven I would have found them scattered all over if that had happened, even if I don't hear it.

Never had one pop on the firebrick either. Perhaps you had something wet inside a case? Sounds like a steam issue - maybe a spider egg sac? Seems like a live primer would be a bigger mess than that.

B.

[sourceofuncertainty]

I had one pop on me today - first time. Normally I torch them individually, but I tried torching them as a group. Just as the inner most brass were getting cherry red and the outer brass were getting close, one went "pop" and kicked a few off the steel plate I was using. It certainly surprised me. In looking over the brass later I couldn't tell which one popped, or why. However I did have one case from that batch let go of its primer when in the ultrasonic bath later.

I don't know if the popped case is the same one that dropped its primer out, though I'm going with that theory for now.

In the future I won't batch-torch them though, at least until I can figure out what that was and why it happened.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Mine turn out just like that too after I take them off the grill. I tried tumbling mine in clean corn cob media and it didn't take the tarnished color off. About 15 minutes of soaking in the kitchen sink with Lemi Shine and a few drops of dish soap I agitated them around with my hand and they look like new again.

Thanks Jailer, I'll have to look for some...

[buck1]

Unsweetened koolaid lemmon aid is citric acid.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks, guys!

I spent a short bit of the evening last night seating cores into the "jackets" and if I didn't line up the core fairly well, it would start into the die crooked. I can identify each one of those, because the brass is so soft that rather than "self-aligning" and seating, the core would put a little sideways curl into the casemouth before a little additional pressure and support from the casewalls did get the core to turn perfectly upright and center itself as it was seated down into the case. So, looks like I got these plenty soft enough to run through the swage die.

BTW, to get rid of that curling action, I did a couple things - bell-mouthed the cases fairly deep (so the first driving band would go down inside the case when I set the boolit in the mouth of it), and I started gently bumping the boolit base on the seater (bell-mouth stem) so as to get it to center-up before putting the pressure on the handle to seat the core. (Before, I was setting the bullet onto the mouth of the case and running it up into the die in one motion with constant pressure.) I think either one of these would solve the problem, but both surely did...

I'm off to the store (after breakfast) to hunt up some Cirtric Acid. Want my bullets to look nice, after all! [smilie=l:

[Grapeshot]

I have used an old cookie tray that my wife thru out. I arrange fifty cases in ten rows of five each, case mouth down, and then play a propane torch over each one.

As they start to glow ed I keep the heat on until they are glowing a nice bright orange and using an old butter knife slide them off and into an old metal can to cool.

I do a row at a time and get about 400 done in about 45 minutes.

I do it this way to insure the head and rim are very soft and will stretch out to the side walls of the die. .40 S&W cases make good .45 Caliber bullets.

[BT Sniper]

10mm,

That Stainless steel collender at wally world is what I use. I think it still works best in my gutted BBQ placed directly on the flame. Just cut the rubber off the sliding handels and good to go.

I'm off to get some lemishine.

Swage On!

BT

[BT Sniper]

Figures, Wally World didn't have it.

[runfiverun]

wally world carries it.
it's in the dishwashing soap stuff aisle.
our local mom and pop is where i found the lemishine the first time.
i was using a couple of lemonade flavored cool-aid and some lemon juice for a while.
it turns your fingernails greenish though.
hot water works best, and the couple of drops of liquid dish soap helps.

[BT Sniper]

Yep searched the dishwashing aisle. Looks like I'll have to order online. Did pick up some PH pool reducer (acid) and it still workds great too.

BT

[a.squibload]

I use a torch on rows of cases head up on tiles.
Spray 'em with water to cool quicker.
Sometimes water gets under 'em and they skitter around for a few seconds.
Haven't had one pop.

[techlava]

Got these copper cleaning methods off the web:

"by pintoshine » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:54 am

I have a couple more recommendations to try. I got these from a clock restoration site.

Household ammonia. Reacts well with patina.

Equal parts white vinegar and household ammonia. This reacts to create ammonia acetate, which is an extremely nice copper cleaner. It removes green and brown patina well. It is not very effective on copper oxide though.

Muriatic acid straight from the jug and 32%.(my favorite for cleanning after annealing) and any diluted strength with heat and time will work.

A one to one mixture of 3% hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid. USE EXTREME CAUSTION, this is what I use to etch circuit boards)

I have used all of these with varying results. Removing the black and red oxide from annealing is easiest with straight muriatic acid. It leaves the best finish and is the most expedient. I have not used it on green or blue patina yet."

Personally, I think it is safer to pouring 1 to 2 parts of muriatic acid to 10 parts water to dilute the acid. Soak the brass in the dilute acid until it shines.
Never pour water into strong acid as it may splatter and injure you!
Muriatic acid (30% construction grade hydrochloric acid use to etch concrete) come in gallon jugs and is cheaply sold in building material stores. Follow all safety instructions!