Heat treat .45 ACP

[dahermit]

I have been reviewing this forum via search in regard to heat treating cast bullets for the .45 ACP. Several posters have stated that heat treating bullets for use in the .45 ACP is not required and that the velocity of such projectiles does not warrant the use of heat treating and they will work as cast.

The following are two targets. The first is RCBS 45-201 cast from wheel weights plus a little tin. W-W cases and primers, Bullseye 5.0 grains. The second target uses the same load, except that the bullets have been heated to 425 degrees for an hour, quenched in a bucket of cold water and loaded 24 hours later.

I have concluded that as cast bullets will work and are not necessary. But, which target would you prefer?
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg113/dtominski/RCBS201ASCAST.jpg

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg113/dtominski/RCBS201HT.jpg

[Moonie]

Keep in mind that the non-heat treated one could be getting sized down in the case depending on your loading techniques. I have used both heat treated and non-heat treated WW boolits in my 45's for years. Honestly haven't had an issue, but I do know from pulled samples that my loaded boolits are still slightly larger than groove.

Do what works best for you.

[Char-Gar]

These two groups of five rounds each prove nothing. Show me ten consecutive targets for both hardened and unhardened bullet and you might have something.

[dahermit]

Keep in mind that the non-heat treated one could be getting sized down in the case depending on your loading techniques. I have used both heat treated and non-heat treated WW boolits in my 45's for years. Honestly haven't had an issue, but I do know from pulled samples that my loaded boolits are still slightly larger than groove.

Do what works best for you.

I have not had an "issue", either. Just better accuracy than with as-cast. The as-cast "work", just fine, they just are not as accurate.

[dahermit]

These two groups of five rounds each prove nothing. Show me ten consecutive targets for both hardened and unhardened bullet and you might have something.

I have a few more targets that show the same thing. But, I did not want to bore you with a lot of same-same pictures. It is not my intent to "have something", it is my intent to offer a possible improvement to what some casters are doing. If you do not believe it, do not want to try it, want to cast aspersions on it, do what you want with it if it will make you feel better. I am not going to post ten consecutive targets; some people do not need to see 100 shot proof. If you do, go ahead and try it yourself.

[Potsy]

I've heat treated for my Kimber. Can't tell much difference. Of course it's never been very finicky.
With a Lee 200 grn. TC I've sized them .452 then run them through the toaster oven at 425-450 for an hour and then dunked them. I've also shot them without heat treating.
I heat treated the only one's I've grouped from my MiHec H&G 68, I've not tried them un-treated. I need to as I'd soon not have to fool with the procedure.
I do, however, keep some heat treated Lee 230 TC's around simply because whatever I shoot those at I want 2 holes in.

[35remington]

Results will vary, and I'm sure those stating that hardening is not needed are equally capable of proving it.

What lube are you using?

BTW, up the temp to the 450 vicinity and see if you can creep up to 460 or better. While such is not absolutely necessary, it's likely that finding the limits of your alloy in your oven might pay dividends later. Such temps are the difference between about 21 BHN and 27 BHN.

425's a leetle low to be optimum hardness, but obviously for your 45 loads it's doing something good.

[dahermit]

Results will vary, and I'm sure those stating that hardening is not needed are equally capable of proving it.

What lube are you using?

BTW, up the temp to the 450 vicinity and see if you can creep up to 460 or better. While such is not absolutely necessary, it's likely that finding the limits of your alloy in your oven might pay dividends later. Such temps are the difference between about 21 BHN and 27 BHN.

425's a leetle low to be optimum hardness, but obviously for your 45 loads it's doing something good.

I use 50/50 Alox of the old type. I bought a lot of it (an off brand) a couple of years ago when it was only about $2.00 a stick.
I used to water drop all my bullets, but found out that the hardness of the bullets varied. Got into oven treating when shooting cast lead in rifles for accuracy.
Have always been afraid of melting a large batch of bullets in the oven, so I tend to be cautious with the heat.
Nevertheless, I have given up with rifles due to arthritis in the shoulders...shoot mostly handguns now.

[noylj]

My opinion only:
The .45ACP is a low pressure, low speed round where a soft lead bullet is perfectly applicable.
However, the average .45ACP barrel has very shallow grooves and a soft lead bullet can easily be striped and lead up the barrel an produce shotgun patterns.
Air cooled WW is perfectly sufficient for the .45ACP, provided the bullet that is in the case is at least 0.001" over groove-to-groove diameter.
Then, every barrel is different and it will tell you what is needed.
Finally, two targets do not a story tell. You would need at least 10 targets of each and have the shooter NOT know which is which. This is where a mechanical rest comes in.

[44man]

After much testing with fast powders and different hardness, I come to the same conclusions. Harder does work better with the fast thump of Bullseye, etc. Then add in the shallow rifling.
But it is all a silly thing to argue about because water dropping makes casting faster and easier then fooling with towels or rags and moving boolits all the time.
I HATE air cooling so I even water drop 20 to 1 alloy even though it does nothing to the boolits. I have been known to WD pure lead balls too.
You need to get old and lazy like me to appreciate that bucket of water! :bigsmyl2:

[dahermit]

My opinion only:
The .45ACP is a low pressure, low speed round where a soft lead bullet is perfectly applicable.
However, the average .45ACP barrel has very shallow grooves and a soft lead bullet can easily be striped and lead up the barrel an produce shotgun patterns.
Air cooled WW is perfectly sufficient for the .45ACP, provided the bullet that is in the case is at least 0.001" over groove-to-groove diameter.
Then, every barrel is different and it will tell you what is needed.
Finally, two targets do not a story tell. You would need at least 10 targets of each and have the shooter NOT know which is which. This is where a mechanical rest comes in.

Show us with targets. Opinions without targets are worth what you pay for them. Show us the targets, keep your opinions.

[NSP64]

After much testing with fast powders and different hardness, I come to the same conclusions. Harder does work better with the fast thump of Bullseye, etc. Then add in the shallow rifling.
But it is all a silly thing to argue about because water dropping makes casting faster and easier then fooling with towels or rags and moving boolits all the time.
I HATE air cooling so I even water drop 20 to 1 alloy even though it does nothing to the boolits. I have been known to WD pure lead balls too.
You need to get old and lazy like me to appreciate that bucket of water! :bigsmyl2:

I too water drop everything. I hate picking up hot boolits:groner:

[Blammer]

instead of heat treating, jsut water drop them if you think it will make for better results when shooting. easier and less time consuming.

[dahermit]

instead of heat treating, jsut water drop them if you think it will make for better results when shooting. easier and less time consuming.

I used to water drop everything (I had constructed a large, spot-welded funnel in which I made several cloth baffles to keep water from splashing back.), but when I got into casting for target accuracy with rifles I found that, despite trying very hard to use a consistent technique, the bullets that resulted varied in hardness. I theorized that the variation in time between casting and quenching was critical and could not be controlled with consistent casting technique. I went to oven heat treating as a result and found that I could control the variation better. Nevertheless, for hand gun shooting, water dropping would likely be an adequate alternative to the oven inasmuch as the results are not as critical as for rifle target accuracy.

[rintinglen]

Hey Hermit! I was feeling like the lone ranger until this thread showed up. I heat treat just about every bullet I shoot. For me, the big "AhA" moment came when shooting H&G 50 Wadcutters out of my Model-14-3 S&W. Groups shrank by just about an inch and there was noticeably less leading --which may have had something to do with the tighter groups.

[gray wolf]

This is a case of --to each his own--- IMHO

I have shot about 5,000 45 acp in the last 3 months, and I must say that my bullet metal is
far from ever being the same. Not because I don't care, far from that.
I am always on the verge of running out of metal--so I have to use the small batches that I get--as I get them, and mix them the best way I can. That being said my metal hardness is never the same. Close perhaps but not the same. I would say between 9 and 12 hardness.
I get none to very,very little leading in my barrel after 300 rounds of shooting.
My boolets are sized on an old 450 that leaks lube so bad that it's a joke. I size my 45 acp to .4525 and lube with micro crystalline wax and Jojoba oil. I have never water dropped or hardened my bullets in any way.
Off hand at 10 yards my shots are a small cluster that can almost be covered with a quarter.
These are not 3 shot strings but more like 20 or 25 shots. They get smaller off a sand bag.
My best loads are 4 grains of B/E for a # 68H&G from a H&G mold and Mi Hecks 200 HP's
seated to 1.240 (SWC) and 1.190 for the HP's. So for me I see no need to harden a 45 ACP bullet, my pistol will out shoot me most of the time.
That is what works for me, would I recommend it? yes I would. But I would not say that if
something different works for you that it is wrong. Part of the fun here is getting to the same
place taking a different road. I like to here how other folks arrive at something that makes
them happy and then want to share it with us. If you want to water drop go a head, I use a
towel and don't mind pushing 2 or 3 hundred bullets over to the side a bit.
There are many other things that come into play as far as the old 1911 goes but this is just my thoughts on this subject.

Sam